I said nobody is supposed to fight off the node.
Go back and read the arguments.
Mister, I've taken on your suggestion and yes I was wrong on that, but one can't always afford to fight on the point. For you to assume that my guild mate is "inexperienced", I want to personally be in the presence of your brilliance.
Your "arguements" where you basically say that you don't lose rating when you win vs random groups is completely wrong, as it is something that us top players GO THROUGH, maybe something you wouldn't know. I do 10 games and go down 5 pages. All with perfect scores, capturing as much as possible. No matter the score, or kill ratio, I go down. It's not my fault I get put up against the people I do.
And if I beat a premade of "equal skill", I would barely go up to begin with, and it doesn't really matter since page ranking =/= game skill, the page ranking is far from a representation of anyone's skill. Half the people on page 1 are nameless PUG stompers who maybe got lucky catching a high ranked player on a disadvantage.
Even with all these changes, there is actually less incentive on actual premades, since people are afraid to lose their petty ranking. The best way to keep your high ranking is actually to not even play, since you'll probably get matched with pugs and lose ranking. Right now, only two guilds actually step up for competitive PVP, as it has been for months.
LF any challenges from any guild or group of players, anyone is welcome. 'tis the @handle.
Now how about you go back and read on what people have been stressing...
Matchmaking and the ELO is not working because it ranks each player as an individual and yet we are still allowed to queue as a team. Balanced matches would only happen if the system were ranking each 2/3/4/5 man team individually, but that's not the case.
Force everyone to solo-queue and balanced matches would immediately become more frequent. The reason why we have lopsided matches is because of premades.
When you go to the park with your friends for some bball you don't get to show up with the 5 best players and say ''this is our team''. Play with your friends, play against your friends, you split the teams up and the result is fairness.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Wow, a dev actually saying that no one is supposed to fight on the point...so this explains a bit of why the game is how it is.
Please take yourself and any other 4 players of the GAME against my team. I will show you what experienced players are.
Moderator =/= dev. Light blue names with titles such as "Producer" and "System Engineer" are devs. Moderators are volunteer personnel and in no way are PWE/Cryptic staff.
Mods are players just like yourself.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
I agree that there should be a different leaderboard and a different queue for 5 man ELO rank premades. One where hopefully one doesn't go down when they win?
Matchmaking and the ELO is not working because it ranks each player as an individual and yet we are still allowed to queue as a team. Balanced matches would only happen if the system were ranking each 2/3/4/5 man team individually, but that's not the case.
Force everyone to solo-queue and balanced matches would immediately become more frequent. The reason why we have lopsided matches is because of premades.
When you go to the park with your friends for some bball you don't get to show up with the 5 best players and say ''this is our team''. Play with your friends, play against your friends, you split the teams up and the result is fairness.
You cant just eliminate premades without losing almost all of the highest paying pvp players all in one single shot. There are so many solutions to this, and but cryptic ignores the problem other than implementing a matchmaking system that doesnt even address the issue.
Scrap the leaderboard and give points depending on value for the team not for grinding kills. ATM I have to see a new trend in behaviour, that makes me want to smash my PC.
PPl run in packs, so they dont have to fear, that they have to fight 1v2, 3... . Even better, 2 teammates run to a node, caped by the enemy team. When I was done defending 2 I went to join them and saw them standing out of range of the enemy players (3 or 4 ppl), not attacking, I think because they feared to get killed if they would go first.
When you cap a node sometimes the rest of your team joins in, to get the points. You see 3 ppl incoming to contest the node and suddenly it is 3v1 because your team decided to go for the next node.
The little bit of tactics I saw in PUG runs went down the drain, since many ppl care more about the leaderboard, then their win, followed by forced disconnects, when they seem to lose.
If PUG runs keep going like this I will either consider joining a 'faceroll lf3m 15k+ GWF for PVP group' or stop playing PvP at all.
Scrap the leaderboard and give points depending on value for the team not for grinding kills. ATM I have to see a new trend in behaviour, that makes me want to smash my PC.
PPl run in packs, so they dont have to fear, that they have to fight 1v2, 3... . Even better, 2 teammates run to a node, caped by the enemy team. When I was done defending 2 I went to join them and saw them standing out of range of the enemy players (3 or 4 ppl), not attacking, I think because they feared to get killed if they would go first.
When you cap a node sometimes the rest of your team joins in, to get the points. You see 3 ppl incoming to contest the node and suddenly it is 3v1 because your team decided to go for the next node.
The little bit of tactics I saw in PUG runs went down the drain, since many ppl care more about the leaderboard, then their win, followed by forced disconnects, when they seem to lose.
If PUG runs keep going like this I will either consider joining a 'faceroll lf3m 15k+ GWF for PVP group' or stop playing PvP at all.
Your post pretty much defines the current state of domination pvp.
Im one of the new players trying out the pvp and it only took 3 matches to see whats going on.
You cannot allow premade groups to fight pugs as it will kill the game at record speed.
I saw the 5 man wrecking ball on atleast 3 of my 8 games and it was annoying to say the least. And what made it more annoying was to see that anytime 1 or 2 got seperadted from the others they refused to engage and just ran around until the roflstompers with 2 handed swords could get to them and roll the team almost singlehandedly.
Every time i had to fight the overpowered 2 handed sword guy i swear he just spammed every skill he had like it was some kind of combo and hoped i would be dead from it.
This playstyle and matchmaking system has been the demise of more than one pvp game and is more like a creeping plague that will kill off all the new players before they even start.
I abolutely loved Warhammer wrath of heroes and it never made it out of beta because a single clan would make a OP group and pugstomp every day for 3 months until the boards were full and most people left because its just not fun.
I like the pvp and i like the guardian tank i made but i cant learn much for tactics if i have to choose between faceroll pvp and just hiding and capping points to try to win.
YES, OMG YES, I thought you would never ask. I have to call my girlfriends.^^
To be serious, I would prefer this option. A well matched game is fun. But with ELO right now, When I PUG, 8/10 times I either feel pity for the 10k enemy who gets crushed by my 19k+ GWF or for myself with 10k+ mates against a full PVP premade. When I do PUG and cap the enemy base sometimes they try to contest 1v1. ~8k GS against 19k. THIS should not happen.
A few days ago we went full premade. The system seems to prefer to put premade against premade, so we had a 50:50 chance for good fights.
if you had the ability to dial up or down your elo requirements even if it could affect your queue wait times, would you want the option?
Honestly, at this point. Hell to the yes.
I've had 10 matches in a row today where the entire team was 9K... I mean... seriously now? 10 matches in a row.. I'm trying to complete the two remaining tasks which are getting wins and triple kills. But it's impossible due to this poverty matchmaking...
if you had the ability to dial up or down your elo requirements even if it could affect your queue wait times, would you want the option?
I think the dialing option is a good start.
But to be honest, it isn't really going to solve anything, its just going to reduce the whining and the crying. No, this isn't just some backhanded insult to the whiners on the forums, I'm serious about this.
You see, months ago, people were crying about long queue times. A lot of them posted that they "just want to play the **** game" and the long times aren't letting them. Now that the ELO has been turned down, people are still crying. What to do now?
Simple, you let them have their dial thing to play with, it gives players the illusion of control, hence they will put more blame on themselves and less on Cryptic. Of course, this is the forums wherein complaining is always present, but it will be an improvement.
I think, there is only one solution. Increase the requirements to enter pvp. Before anyone says "no no no" think about it.
You have already many specific requirements in this game and most of them make sense.
- to enter CN u have 9.2k gs requ, and with that gs u will most likley not defeat the draco but maybe the first boss.
- to enter T2 dungeons u have a gs threshold and it is good so. I very doubt anyone could defeat thr Spiderqueen with 6k gs and no boons.
- malabog and Valindra have not only a gs requ but u have to pay 50k ad to enter.
- IWD has a high gs requ and u need 3 boons
- kessels retreat jas the highest gs requ and u need weeks to farm ur access
But for pvp, which is MUCH MUCH more serious and challenging than any pve content in this game, u have no, NO entering requirement.
To be honest: its not even the premade vs pug issue thats such a big deal, its the "We have 7k gs scrub in team" vs decent opponents. Its like 4vs5 or even 3vs5 because players with such low gs have most of the time no boons, no good specc, no clue about domination, bad stat allocation and so in.
They are dead fishs.
And the most annoying thing is where the devs have really failed: they consider a 4vs5 situation as doable. What??! If the matchmaking works only slightly correct meaning equal teams then a 4vs5 is impossible. Only if ur team would win for sure in 5vs5, a loss of a player can be compensated.
But my guess is the matchmaking for equal team was NEVER intended because even with 4vs5 u cant leave the match. The only thin implemented was a leaver penalty, NO matchmaking system and an imaginary ELO system based on individual performance but used to calculate TEAM ELO.
Conclusion: the whole matchmaking needs a rework. Or we introduce very high requirements to pvp to prevent scrubs entering pvp because its no fun either for them nor serious pvplers.
the problem with raising the requirement is what are you going to use as the measuring stick? gear score?
gear score requirements in dungeons/skirmishes/IWD make sense because it's more of a gauge of where you're at in terms of your character's development. at level 60, though, it's a completely different ball game. you could gear up with all blues right when you hit level 60 and your gear score is already going to increase enough to get you into T1 dungeons and maybe even T2 dungeons. or even getting into some cheap T1 epics... and of course, add some R5/6/7 enchants and boom.
pvp on the other hand is not entirely gear specific. at level 60, anyone could easily acquire a GS over 10k with not a whole lot of effort. so then what? make it a 14 or 15k requirement? it starts to look like an elite club at that point.
fact is, pvp is for everybody to enjoy starting at level 10. it doesn't make any sense to gate entry by a requirement that is by no way an accurate gauge of viability.
0
degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
the problem with raising the requirement is what are you going to use as the measuring stick? gear score?
gear score requirements in dungeons/skirmishes/IWD make sense because it's more of a gauge of where you're at in terms of your character's development. at level 60, though, it's a completely different ball game. you could gear up with all blues right when you hit level 60 and your gear score is already going to increase enough to get you into T1 dungeons and maybe even T2 dungeons. or even getting into some cheap T1 epics... and of course, add some R5/6/7 enchants and boom.
pvp on the other hand is not entirely gear specific. at level 60, anyone could easily acquire a GS over 10k with not a whole lot of effort. so then what? make it a 14 or 15k requirement? it starts to look like an elite club at that point.
fact is, pvp is for everybody to enjoy starting at level 10. it doesn't make any sense to gate entry by a requirement that is by no way an accurate gauge of viability.
1) The Devs have mentioned that GS is not a significant factor in PVP. I tend to disagree. *shrug*
2) If you do have a GS requirement, you could simply make brackets (0-9999, 10000-14000, 14001 to Infinity). It wouldn't be hard.
3) I'd love a way to vote kick in PVP. Just had a match where an HR stood in campfire the whole time "talking to her guildies." What a joke.
a votekick option is definatly needed, + possibly gain a 15min penatly instead of the 30min penatly. far too often players afk at the campfire after being crushed.
also in what way could u not gauge a characters development by it being less than 7k in blues and greens. and gets 1 shot by even a half decent player. a gearscore requirement should be implemented and its extremely needed.
the problem with raising the requirement is what are you going to use as the measuring stick? gear score?
gear score requirements in dungeons/skirmishes/IWD make sense because it's more of a gauge of where you're at in terms of your character's development. at level 60, though, it's a completely different ball game. you could gear up with all blues right when you hit level 60 and your gear score is already going to increase enough to get you into T1 dungeons and maybe even T2 dungeons. or even getting into some cheap T1 epics... and of course, add some R5/6/7 enchants and boom.
pvp on the other hand is not entirely gear specific. at level 60, anyone could easily acquire a GS over 10k with not a whole lot of effort. so then what? make it a 14 or 15k requirement? it starts to look like an elite club at that point.
fact is, pvp is for everybody to enjoy starting at level 10. it doesn't make any sense to gate entry by a requirement that is by no way an accurate gauge of viability.
i dont think most of us mind the 10k gs pugs, but when people are in level 40 greens and some blues and are under 6-8k gs. It is PAINFULLY obvious they do not care about progress, and a GS requirement should be implemented so people like this do not plague our pvp matches at lvl 60.
The elo system in the game doesn't appear to be working optimally. You can win/lose a lot of rating when everyone else in the match is far below your elo, you can win/lose a lot of rating when everyone else in the match is far above your elo. All team based elo games I've played drastically reduce the k modifier(Game Point Constant modifier) when one of the player's elo is an outliar, for that specific player. This game doesn't, or at least it's only slightly reduced.
But outside of that, a lot of what abminister is saying is true. Saying it's one of the most incorrect statements on the forums would not be true and he would only be lying if he thought the system worked differently, I suppose it's a possibility though.
0
faustasdmMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
Abminister says you cannot go down in ranking from a win.
Cause you can't. You may go down if at the same time people go over you. Which doesn't make their statement wrong.
I don't like vote-kicking in itself because it would lead to abuse very easily.
Kicking AFK players isn't exactly as simple as it seems. This will lead to a skew of more problems. We will have people complaining that they queue only to pop into a losing team (since most situations involving kicking a player would tend to be losing efforts).
Comments
I said nobody is supposed to fight off the node.
Go back and read the arguments.
Mister, I've taken on your suggestion and yes I was wrong on that, but one can't always afford to fight on the point. For you to assume that my guild mate is "inexperienced", I want to personally be in the presence of your brilliance.
Your "arguements" where you basically say that you don't lose rating when you win vs random groups is completely wrong, as it is something that us top players GO THROUGH, maybe something you wouldn't know. I do 10 games and go down 5 pages. All with perfect scores, capturing as much as possible. No matter the score, or kill ratio, I go down. It's not my fault I get put up against the people I do.
And if I beat a premade of "equal skill", I would barely go up to begin with, and it doesn't really matter since page ranking =/= game skill, the page ranking is far from a representation of anyone's skill. Half the people on page 1 are nameless PUG stompers who maybe got lucky catching a high ranked player on a disadvantage.
Even with all these changes, there is actually less incentive on actual premades, since people are afraid to lose their petty ranking. The best way to keep your high ranking is actually to not even play, since you'll probably get matched with pugs and lose ranking. Right now, only two guilds actually step up for competitive PVP, as it has been for months.
LF any challenges from any guild or group of players, anyone is welcome. 'tis the @handle.
Now how about you go back and read on what people have been stressing...
#1 Enemy Team PvP Devoted Cleric
Best rapper 2014
Alpha female
Force everyone to solo-queue and balanced matches would immediately become more frequent. The reason why we have lopsided matches is because of premades.
When you go to the park with your friends for some bball you don't get to show up with the 5 best players and say ''this is our team''. Play with your friends, play against your friends, you split the teams up and the result is fairness.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
Moderator =/= dev. Light blue names with titles such as "Producer" and "System Engineer" are devs. Moderators are volunteer personnel and in no way are PWE/Cryptic staff.
Mods are players just like yourself.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
#1 Enemy Team PvP Devoted Cleric
Best rapper 2014
Alpha female
You cant just eliminate premades without losing almost all of the highest paying pvp players all in one single shot. There are so many solutions to this, and but cryptic ignores the problem other than implementing a matchmaking system that doesnt even address the issue.
Jugger Conq GF
....
PPl run in packs, so they dont have to fear, that they have to fight 1v2, 3... . Even better, 2 teammates run to a node, caped by the enemy team. When I was done defending 2 I went to join them and saw them standing out of range of the enemy players (3 or 4 ppl), not attacking, I think because they feared to get killed if they would go first.
When you cap a node sometimes the rest of your team joins in, to get the points. You see 3 ppl incoming to contest the node and suddenly it is 3v1 because your team decided to go for the next node.
The little bit of tactics I saw in PUG runs went down the drain, since many ppl care more about the leaderboard, then their win, followed by forced disconnects, when they seem to lose.
If PUG runs keep going like this I will either consider joining a 'faceroll lf3m 15k+ GWF for PVP group' or stop playing PvP at all.
Your post pretty much defines the current state of domination pvp.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Did the campaign bring a less frequent use of Soulforged? Soulforge is a source of double-kills for the red team.
You cannot allow premade groups to fight pugs as it will kill the game at record speed.
I saw the 5 man wrecking ball on atleast 3 of my 8 games and it was annoying to say the least. And what made it more annoying was to see that anytime 1 or 2 got seperadted from the others they refused to engage and just ran around until the roflstompers with 2 handed swords could get to them and roll the team almost singlehandedly.
Every time i had to fight the overpowered 2 handed sword guy i swear he just spammed every skill he had like it was some kind of combo and hoped i would be dead from it.
This playstyle and matchmaking system has been the demise of more than one pvp game and is more like a creeping plague that will kill off all the new players before they even start.
I abolutely loved Warhammer wrath of heroes and it never made it out of beta because a single clan would make a OP group and pugstomp every day for 3 months until the boards were full and most people left because its just not fun.
I like the pvp and i like the guardian tank i made but i cant learn much for tactics if i have to choose between faceroll pvp and just hiding and capping points to try to win.
To be serious, I would prefer this option. A well matched game is fun. But with ELO right now, When I PUG, 8/10 times I either feel pity for the 10k enemy who gets crushed by my 19k+ GWF or for myself with 10k+ mates against a full PVP premade. When I do PUG and cap the enemy base sometimes they try to contest 1v1. ~8k GS against 19k. THIS should not happen.
A few days ago we went full premade. The system seems to prefer to put premade against premade, so we had a 50:50 chance for good fights.
Honestly, at this point. Hell to the yes.
I've had 10 matches in a row today where the entire team was 9K... I mean... seriously now? 10 matches in a row.. I'm trying to complete the two remaining tasks which are getting wins and triple kills. But it's impossible due to this poverty matchmaking...
Lopsided GS, Premades vs Pubs, Disconnects taking up a permanent unkickable spot.
I think the dialing option is a good start.
But to be honest, it isn't really going to solve anything, its just going to reduce the whining and the crying. No, this isn't just some backhanded insult to the whiners on the forums, I'm serious about this.
You see, months ago, people were crying about long queue times. A lot of them posted that they "just want to play the **** game" and the long times aren't letting them. Now that the ELO has been turned down, people are still crying. What to do now?
Simple, you let them have their dial thing to play with, it gives players the illusion of control, hence they will put more blame on themselves and less on Cryptic. Of course, this is the forums wherein complaining is always present, but it will be an improvement.
You have already many specific requirements in this game and most of them make sense.
- to enter CN u have 9.2k gs requ, and with that gs u will most likley not defeat the draco but maybe the first boss.
- to enter T2 dungeons u have a gs threshold and it is good so. I very doubt anyone could defeat thr Spiderqueen with 6k gs and no boons.
- malabog and Valindra have not only a gs requ but u have to pay 50k ad to enter.
- IWD has a high gs requ and u need 3 boons
- kessels retreat jas the highest gs requ and u need weeks to farm ur access
But for pvp, which is MUCH MUCH more serious and challenging than any pve content in this game, u have no, NO entering requirement.
To be honest: its not even the premade vs pug issue thats such a big deal, its the "We have 7k gs scrub in team" vs decent opponents. Its like 4vs5 or even 3vs5 because players with such low gs have most of the time no boons, no good specc, no clue about domination, bad stat allocation and so in.
They are dead fishs.
And the most annoying thing is where the devs have really failed: they consider a 4vs5 situation as doable. What??! If the matchmaking works only slightly correct meaning equal teams then a 4vs5 is impossible. Only if ur team would win for sure in 5vs5, a loss of a player can be compensated.
But my guess is the matchmaking for equal team was NEVER intended because even with 4vs5 u cant leave the match. The only thin implemented was a leaver penalty, NO matchmaking system and an imaginary ELO system based on individual performance but used to calculate TEAM ELO.
Conclusion: the whole matchmaking needs a rework. Or we introduce very high requirements to pvp to prevent scrubs entering pvp because its no fun either for them nor serious pvplers.
gear score requirements in dungeons/skirmishes/IWD make sense because it's more of a gauge of where you're at in terms of your character's development. at level 60, though, it's a completely different ball game. you could gear up with all blues right when you hit level 60 and your gear score is already going to increase enough to get you into T1 dungeons and maybe even T2 dungeons. or even getting into some cheap T1 epics... and of course, add some R5/6/7 enchants and boom.
pvp on the other hand is not entirely gear specific. at level 60, anyone could easily acquire a GS over 10k with not a whole lot of effort. so then what? make it a 14 or 15k requirement? it starts to look like an elite club at that point.
fact is, pvp is for everybody to enjoy starting at level 10. it doesn't make any sense to gate entry by a requirement that is by no way an accurate gauge of viability.
1) The Devs have mentioned that GS is not a significant factor in PVP. I tend to disagree. *shrug*
2) If you do have a GS requirement, you could simply make brackets (0-9999, 10000-14000, 14001 to Infinity). It wouldn't be hard.
3) I'd love a way to vote kick in PVP. Just had a match where an HR stood in campfire the whole time "talking to her guildies." What a joke.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
also in what way could u not gauge a characters development by it being less than 7k in blues and greens. and gets 1 shot by even a half decent player. a gearscore requirement should be implemented and its extremely needed.
i dont think most of us mind the 10k gs pugs, but when people are in level 40 greens and some blues and are under 6-8k gs. It is PAINFULLY obvious they do not care about progress, and a GS requirement should be implemented so people like this do not plague our pvp matches at lvl 60.
Duo queue look for a quick game to finish daily get put up against a almost troll comp premade and play for nearly one hour. Great game.
But outside of that, a lot of what abminister is saying is true. Saying it's one of the most incorrect statements on the forums would not be true and he would only be lying if he thought the system worked differently, I suppose it's a possibility though.
Cause you can't. You may go down if at the same time people go over you. Which doesn't make their statement wrong.
Another Gold Star for one of the most wrong statements? Use forum search to prove you're wrong.
Kicking AFK players isn't exactly as simple as it seems. This will lead to a skew of more problems. We will have people complaining that they queue only to pop into a losing team (since most situations involving kicking a player would tend to be losing efforts).