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About this perma invis rogue thing..
nerhesi
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
Hey folks,
I was pretty heavily into PvP from when this game launched then I took off for around 6 months or so I guess. I left pretty much soon after Gauntlgrym. I recently came back, switched my full set of Champion Mage gear from the new stuff with Tenacity, then hit PvP with 1100+ tenacity.
Maybe i'm missing something, but how is the rogue invis thing still an issue for so long? Is it not common knowledge that with a certain build you can pretty much kill 1 to 3 people (assuming no Cleric present) with zero threat to the rogue? Ive played a good 60+ pvp games since I've been back the past few days and I've noticed a few skilled Perma-invis rogues that pretty much can just toy with everyone.
Or perhaps, Ive missed something obvious like some new pvp see-invis buff/artefact/mechanic/something?
I was pretty heavily into PvP from when this game launched then I took off for around 6 months or so I guess. I left pretty much soon after Gauntlgrym. I recently came back, switched my full set of Champion Mage gear from the new stuff with Tenacity, then hit PvP with 1100+ tenacity.
Maybe i'm missing something, but how is the rogue invis thing still an issue for so long? Is it not common knowledge that with a certain build you can pretty much kill 1 to 3 people (assuming no Cleric present) with zero threat to the rogue? Ive played a good 60+ pvp games since I've been back the past few days and I've noticed a few skilled Perma-invis rogues that pretty much can just toy with everyone.
Or perhaps, Ive missed something obvious like some new pvp see-invis buff/artefact/mechanic/something?
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All it takes to be able to do this is high recovery/INT and using moves like shadow strike/bait and switch to refill stealth bar. (Also taking stealth duration/dodge roll -> stealth feats.) Another popular version of the build is just using shadow strike/impossible to catch with a third encounter being a damage based one (path of the blade). The cooldown of ITC becomes so low that you can remain either in stealth or under the damage immunity of ITC constantly.
This type of build has been known since the beginning though, despite not gaining popularity until recently as seen in this guide from early june 2013, but who knows how long it was actually in use prior to a guide being made on it.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?324111-Build-Guide-quot-INT-Rogue-quot-Perma-Stealth-Build
There are also more modern updated guides of the build in the TR forum section if you want to learn more about how it best applied now.
All this being said, one of the developers did state in a livestream that they are looking at ways to counter permastealth. Some of the ideas involve making rogues deal less damage the more they attack from stealth, or making them visible to a target they are currently attacking from stealth.
I think permas are also the bane of cw's, but the good news is well played cws are a nightmare themselves in pvp.
Jugger Conq GF
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some good encounters / setups to counter permas:
TAB: Shard
Q: Chill Strike / Ice Rays (instant damage compared to rogues being able to cloak and bug chill strike into doing no damage or stun "lol")
E: Conduit / RoE
R: Choke / Ice Rays (for root and rogues being able to completly negate the choking effect of EF 60-70% of time "lol")
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
I find HR's CC especially disruptive shot can help massively when used as soon as you bump into the perma. The cap isn't all that big so just run around to where the perma most likely is, even the best ones can be cornered by a HR on the cap. A GWF is similar in the way they can move so fast and have a crazy high burst stun lock. Also FYI to the guy who complained about the GWF nerf their damage on TR will most likely be much higher seeing as TR doesn't have a great deal of defense anyway (as long as you change from senti to destroyer). Sure you'll be squishier like this but that doesn't mean you wont be able to stun lock a TR and 2 shot them still.
It all depends on what class you play really, the class that has the biggest issue with a perma is a CW as they can't exactly move super fast until they see them in melee range. GF can have troubles with them also due to being slow. A good cleric should be able to out heal their damage as long as they don't let themselves get hit by too many flurry's and daily's.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Jugger Conq GF
....
If you are getting any help from teammates HR and GWF are probably your best bet.
If your not getting any help from teammates and they are just trying to contest/survive at your home base, your only real option is to also use a TR and hope your better skill/gear/luck.
Ok, so obviously a little/crazy OP at the moment.
One last question - you guys speak a lot about AoE and I totally understand as that is straight forward. However, I'm noticing a lot of times when I do bust them out of stealth its almost always immunity flashing when I try to CC them. What is the CC immunity cycle/CD I'm looking at when fighting a Perma-TR rogue? Like 10 seconds every 20 or so? It is just a bit demoralizing that even when I pop them out of stealth, they're immune to CC (and sometimes damage? My abilities are hitting for peanuts...)
Is there anything else that increases stealth detection?
I think you mean storm fury, but yes any damage will help take a rogue out of stealth. I haven't tried storm fury on them. Might be helpful when they're tossing knives at you. You need to be under 50% health though and by that point a rogue is going to be looking to insta-kill you with shocking execution, so all in all, probably not very helpful.
Nothing helps detect stealthed characters except being really close to them, although certain effects will reveal their location (steal time has a build-up of particles where they are, thornward will shoot a bolt out at them).
As for Impossible to Catch or ITC (the immunity thing you're seeing), it's one of the most OP abilities in the game. If they use it from stealth, they negate all damage. If used out of stealth, they still deflect every attack (and if that's not enough rouges have 25% more deflect severity than everyone else), and as you noticed are CC-immune in either case.
It lasts 5 seconds and rogues with int and recovery (which most stack nowadays) are going to have the cooldown pretty low.
What that means is that your window to actually CC them or even just damage them is going to be very short.
One thing I've noticed is that lots of rogues wait just a little too long to refill their stealth bar with shadow strike. It has a casting time on it, so it's a good time to hit them with CC if they're trying to get back into stealth after using ITC. Rogues tend to dodge right after using it though so the time to hit them is very short.
The only real way to deal with a high INT/rec, fast ITC/SS recharge, perma/semi-perma build TR, is another one of those. See a node infested by a TR? Send your own, armed with PotB and watch in awe as both TRs are screwed over within 5 secs of engagement, with both parties' stealth peeled off way ahead of their intended rotation.
Yes, PotB is that much stupidly overpowered as an anti-stealth power. The build itself was known quite some time ago, and experieced TRs would use it as a 1vs1 tool from time to time. However it didn't come in popularity until recently, and only now people are beginning to realize how bullshi* this power truly is, when all of the TRs in the match are using the exact same build and covering the entire area with spikes.
(ps) ...and they're planning to make it even more powerful by allowing it to crit. Whoop-dee-too. How they figured my Vengeance's Pursuit was so OP that it needs a 16sec recharge, and yet figured PotB was so weak that it needs a crit factor added on top of that bullshi*, is really beyond me.
Though it ended up in an ugly and humiliating defeat of a duel on my part when the argument about PotB with Sicarius went sour, he was right about it. PotB simply removes all intelligent brain activity that was required when two TRs were fighting each other, each trying different ways to flush out the other first. It removes all of that process of thinking strategy and tactics, and simply substitutes it with a press of a button.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
PotB is more powerful than slam and slam is a daily. Also works wonders with a bilethorn.
Wep enchants don't proc with PotB, so you've probably observed it wrong, but yes, it is more powerful than it seems at first glance(or rather, first poke).
The reality about TRs is despite what people say, the only counter to a TR is another TR, not CWs, not HRs, not GWFs or GFs or DCs. An HR has a good chance if he gets the jump on the TR first when he is exposed, but under normal circumstances it is always the TR with the initiative in combat, not the other way around.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Pretty much this.
Plus, last time i was in test shard, i could practice with a BiS TR, and it seemd like he could find a build/ setup much stronger than the TRs we have on live.
Don't know if stealth will be reworked, but with GWFs changes, the only way to counter a TR could really be only another TR or HR.
It amazes me how the player base is still so focused in complaining about GWFs, when TRs is, as you said, actually the biggest challenge in PvP, and i see more and more of these guys trolling multiple pug players in pug PvP.
Almost every match there's a perma TR going to our base and trolling 3+ of my team. It's really a pain, and with the monster lag i have since last server restart, it's even worse to face these guys.
Would love to understand if this lag i'm having is a game issue or something wrong with my connection.
My bad if so, never looked too close after it tbh:o
u can use "/netgraph 1" command to check the ping. Missing skills that i am sure i;ve hit or getting hit by skills i was certain i;ve dodge is a common thing, think they call it rubberbanding.
Its an issue for everyone, they shouldn't stay in stealth once they attack a target, they shouldn't be able to cap a node in stealth!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Many good HRs I know dispatch elite permas quite easily.
Thanks! I'll use the command. Never had such huge lag spikes in PvP and i really need to know if it's a game problem or something up with my pc.
Potb being Fotm is the effect of Impact Shot being nerfed to uselessness.
The increased amount of permas in the game is the effect TR burst damage builds being nerfed to uselessness.
Vengeance's Pursuit is a joke power, entirely redundant, next to useless and not thought out at all. Whisperknives will always be redheaded step-sibling to infiltrator as long as they have the poor man's ITC.
There used to be more viable powers to build with, so you used to have more variety in what people did. But that is becoming more and more narrow.
I once read a great thread title that said it all; "TR's are demonized in pvp". So true, TR's can be beat by HR's, other TR's, smart GF's (read; not easy, gf must outplay him) GWFs, and nullified by a good DC.
I honestly don't see the problem but I understand their annoyance factor.
Are you willing to give them back their burst to eliminate a (mostly) perma stealth rotation?
Yea, it's non-sense.
One Rogue is perma-camping your home point. Instead of steamrolling his team that's now fighting 4v5 without him, we better feed him kills and play fair with a 4v4 team comp.
Doesn't take more than an objective look at the spec to learn how to counter it. Then again, just from my experience with MMOs, whenever the community cries hard enough about something, the host is bound to nerf it sooner rather than later. After all, we can't forget that this is a free game and Perfect World has to milk money from the idiots before they quit because "Everything that kills me is OP and needs to be nerfed."
That's probably because Whisperknife doesn't rely on ItC to stay alive.
Something about range plays a pretty big factor. Can't remember the last time I got steamrolled by a GWF from 5+ meters away.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
No, really. You can take it away. I am tired to death of my PvE damage being destroyed by people complaining about Stealth in PvP. Please. Take it. Give me back the damage and the four charges on Cloud of Steel and the pillaging of Lurker's Assault(At least give me the **** countdown timer/a visual so I know it's up or not), and you can have my stealth. Just to shut the PvP criers up. Please.