Yea, it's non-sense.
One Rogue is perma-camping your home point. Instead of steamrolling his team that's now fighting 4v5 without him, we better feed him kills and play fair with a 4v4 team comp.
Doesn't take more than an objective look at the spec to learn how to counter it. Then again, just from my experience with MMOs, whenever the community cries hard enough about something, the host is bound to nerf it sooner rather than later. After all, we can't forget that this is a free game and Perfect World has to milk money from the idiots before they quit because "Everything that kills me is OP and needs to be nerfed."
That's probably because Whisperknife doesn't rely on ItC to stay alive.
Something about range plays a pretty big factor. Can't remember the last time I got steamrolled by a GWF from 5+ meters away.
I play both, Whisper is by far more fragile and less damaging than infiltrator. That said whisperknife is more fun, because it is a challenge with no immunity or "i win" daily.
Sorry but the range factor of one at will doesn't make up for how utterly behind it's brother this path is.
You can have my stealth if you give me my damage back and give me some non-stealthed survivability. A third dodge would be a good start.
Screw it. Why not the six like HRs? I'll never understand why the supposedly most nimble class in the game has only 2 dodges like a Cleric. HR and TR should both have three (max).
Want stealth removed? Give TRs all their abilities as if in stealth and buff those they nerfed in the past. Obviously people will then throw up complaints when they watch a TR burn down a GWF in seconds but, meh, can't make everyone happy right?
Tard pugs demand everything that kills them to be reduced to useless classes. Every single class can counter a perma stealth rogue especially since the stealth build demands from our side tremendous loss in our dps since we forsake our dps skills ( which ones are nerfed like hell because of pugs that just cry. ) . Artifacts , Reflecting enchants , Aoe skills , HR'S roots that doesn't allow us to get in range to use ss on someone . Cws overtime spells that burn our meter like hell . Not mentioning close range HRs that land far higher dmg than us with those cool rotations they got . Aoe Dailies . Prone effects ( aoe ) . Oh wait . NERF TRS . OP OP OP OP OP .Let's nerf them moar.<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> pugs .
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nerhesiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yea, it's non-sense.
One Rogue is perma-camping your home point. Instead of steamrolling his team that's now fighting 4v5 without him, we better feed him kills and play fair with a 4v4 team comp.
Yes because fighting 4v5 for two points that are barely going to give points vs holding one for the ENTIRE time by following your tactic is a valid move!! :rolleyes: Almost as valid as thinking that rogue is going to do nothing for minutes on end, but sit at a single point while his entire team fights.
Doesn't take more than an objective look at the spec to learn how to counter it. Then again, just from my experience with MMOs, whenever the community cries hard enough about something, the host is bound to nerf it sooner rather than later. After all, we can't forget that this is a free game and Perfect World has to milk money from the idiots before they quit because "Everything that kills me is OP and needs to be nerfed."
What a bunch of gibberish that doesn't actually address any point, and just theorycrafts random BS. The fact that this is not some random event, and is clearly noticed by a lot of classes, including your own paints you as the usual "dont nerf me, my tactic is valid". What tactic? You have a rotation.. in pvp, with the need to sometimes use an immunity should you be lazy or screw up.
You can have my stealth if you give me my damage back and give me some non-stealthed survivability. A third dodge would be a good start.
No, really. You can take it away. I am tired to death of my PvE damage being destroyed by people complaining about Stealth in PvP. Please. Take it. Give me back the damage and the four charges on Cloud of Steel and the pillaging of Lurker's Assault(At least give me the **** countdown timer/a visual so I know it's up or not), and you can have my stealth. Just to shut the PvP criers up. Please.
I COULD NOT BE MORE AGREED
i play both whisperknife and Master infiltrator, i prefer whisperknife more... or i did until they give us a 14 sec on our only worth, skill now it's useless in every way possible
honestly, i will prefer something that allow us to breack free from control instead of the stealth, or deflect control, while we have some ... mechanic bar... or give us some more mechanism of defense, since we are the class so dependant of our mechanic that out of it, we are very much dead
Honestly, i just don't understand the line of thinking of the devs, they want to nerf the Rogues because of the permastealth, while the make almost every aspect of the game push you into perma! it's completely anoying
Give us our Beta dmg and take away from us the stealth . We are gonna have fun 1 hit k.o everyone since you want it like this .The devs are idiots that are pissing on the PvP community and rely only on the pve community . Most of the crybabies are just idiot 15 year old kids that lack the ability to fight something different than brainless mobs . Keep those pvers out of our territory . Rogues have been nerfed like hell since beta more than any other class in this game and now they wish to strip us from our class ability in which they pushed us . It's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> . But far more <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about this game is the fact that devs prefer to pay attention to pvers with 0 knowledge about pvp. I am freaking playing L series since 1996 . Back there the devs on Official servers had a pretty strict method to keep tards from crying . Just banhammering them.
Give us our Beta dmg and take away from us the stealth . We are gonna have fun 1 hit k.o everyone since you want it like this .The devs are idiots that are pissing on the PvP community and rely only on the pve community . Most of the crybabies are just idiot 15 year old kids that lack the ability to fight something different than brainless mobs . Keep those pvers out of our territory . Rogues have been nerfed like hell since beta more than any other class in this game and now they wish to strip us from our class ability in which they pushed us . It's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> . But far more <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about this game is the fact that devs prefer to pay attention to pvers with 0 knowledge about pvp. I am freaking playing L series since 1996 . Back there the devs on Official servers had a pretty strict method to keep tards from crying . Just banhammering them.
This kind of shows just how warped the awareness of most TR players are, when it comes to just what their class should be, or should not be doing. It's either TRs have to ROFLSTOMP with one-shot damage, or TRs have to ROFLSTOMP by remaining untouchable in stealth. Its either OP-ness in one extreme or the other.
Whatever happened to the middle ground? TR players seem to consider every bit of balancing -- which were mostly well deserved, mind you -- as being gimped in one way or another. Some weird sense of insecurity seems to linger around the notion that TRs might need to actually fight a fight where the opponent doesn't receive a one-sided beating with 0 chance of retaliation.
The general attitude is like;
OH NOES! I might be... *GASP!* SEEN?! They might actually.. *GASP!* RETALIATE??!! I... I.. might actually not be able to dance around 2~3 people by myself, and I might actually be easily dispatched if 2~3 people are attacking me??!! PREPOSTEROUS!!
Although I neither condone, nor condemn the Combat TR playstyle -- the so-called "Combat TR" is actually closer to what TRs should be, in regards to general balance, not the untouchable/unkillable freak it is with the INT/REC builds.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Screw it. Why not the six like HRs? I'll never understand why the supposedly most nimble class in the game has only 2 dodges like a Cleric. HR and TR should both have three (max).
Want stealth removed? Give TRs all their abilities as if in stealth and buff those they nerfed in the past. Obviously people will then throw up complaints when they watch a TR burn down a GWF in seconds but, meh, can't make everyone happy right?
You clearly have not played as a HR. 6 dodges? In theory, sure. But they don't dodge anything in reality. You really need to use 2-3 to avoid one strike, and you need to dodge waaay earlier than with TR/CW for example. If you dodge when you would usually dodge with a CW for example, you WILL GET HIT!
I have also noticed that it's very hard to dodge anything a CW throws at you. Not even spamming all 6 dodges might actually dodge an attack. And same against HR, you can spam your dodges and still get nailed to the wall. I know this because I play HR, and as a HR I always try to dodge a lot against another HR in the first few seconds we meet. Since I know he will put some kind of CC on me if I don't. Usually after burning 2-4 dodges I will be in CC anyway. Sure, it works the other way around too, I will get CC on him.
I would be so very very happy to get the same dodge ability that CW has. 3 good ones. (more than good, it is pretty broken(I played CW for 11 months so I should know))
Hell. I would trade all my ****ty HR dodges for the 2 that TR have. Ok this became a ramble but point being, do not complain about HR dodges, because it sucks major <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
You clearly have not played as a HR. 6 dodges? In theory, sure. But they don't dodge anything in reality. You really need to use 2-3 to avoid one strike, and you need to dodge waaay earlier than with TR/CW for example. If you dodge when you would usually dodge with a CW for example, you WILL GET HIT!
I have also noticed that it's very hard to dodge anything a CW throws at you. Not even spamming all 6 dodges might actually dodge an attack. And same against HR, you can spam your dodges and still get nailed to the wall. I know this because I play HR, and as a HR I always try to dodge a lot against another HR in the first few seconds we meet. Since I know he will put some kind of CC on me if I don't. Usually after burning 2-4 dodges I will be in CC anyway. Sure, it works the other way around too, I will get CC on him.
I would be so very very happy to get the same dodge ability that CW has. 3 good ones. (more than good, it is pretty broken(I played CW for 11 months so I should know))
Hell. I would trade all my ****ty HR dodges for the 2 that TR have. Ok this became a ramble but point being, do not complain about HR dodges, because it sucks major <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
It's actually more dependant on what you are attempting to dodge, rather than how your dodge is. I've written about this a few times, but to summarize, the NW powers are generally like as described below:
(1) Instan power activation in conjunction with instant animation: most at-wills, etc..
(2) Delayed power activation in conjunction with delayed animation: Dazing Strike, Vengeance's Pursuit, etc..
(3) Instant power activation, despite delayed anination: Takedown, Entangling Force, etc..
(1) would be the intuitive case where "what you see is what you get", and therefore dodge "what you see", and you will not be hit
(2) is also easy to understand. Powers like Dazing Strike has a set-up motion. If you dodge during that set-up, you will not be hit.
(3) is the case where people feel certain powers are incredibly hard to dodge.
Takedown for instance, you see a GWF raise his weapon over the shoulder, ready to strike down. You dodge at that exact timing. In this case, you will be hit and proned in the middle of your dodge. You are already registered as a hit at activation of TD, and when the animation finishes (the hilt strikes down), the result of the hit -- prone -- manifests, even if you are in the dodging/teleporting motion.
Entangling Force, likewise. Seemingly, the power activates after the wizard waves his arms around in a castng motion. However, this is not so. The hit actually registers at the moment when the power is activated, not when the wizard finishes waving his arms. Therefore, if you start dodging as he waves his arms, then you are too late. You will be held.
Empirically, to successfully dodge TD or EF, you need to anticiapte and enter dodge just before the power activation, unlike most powers which you may be able to visually confirm, and then dodge.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This kind of shows just how warped the awareness of most TR players are, when it comes to just what their class should be, or should not be doing. It's either TRs have to ROFLSTOMP with one-shot damage, or TRs have to ROFLSTOMP by remaining untouchable in stealth. Its either OP-ness in one extreme or the other.
Whatever happened to the middle ground? TR players seem to consider every bit of balancing -- which were mostly well deserved, mind you -- as being gimped in one way or another. Some weird sense of insecurity seems to linger around the notion that TRs might need to actually fight a fight where the opponent doesn't receive a one-sided beating with 0 chance of retaliation.
The general attitude is like;
Although I neither condone, nor condemn the Combat TR playstyle -- the so-called "Combat TR" is actually closer to what TRs should be, in regards to general balance, not the untouchable/unkillable freak it is with the INT/REC builds.
Give me your account . i don't mind if it has a Dc in it . I will give you my Tr . I bet my ***** and 500 k AD that you won't be able to perma stealth more than 2 sec .And that goes to everyone . You still don't get that every skill of ours both in pve - pvp is being nerfed ? Trs should have the higher instant dps and like any other MMO the best EVASION capability .Stealth is this our evasion capability along with impossible to catch . Try playing a healer without his shield or blink . Same goes for Hrs who can travel from the one side of the map to the other just by swifting Qing the gfws that got higher speed than an epic mount for more than our perma stealth lasts ( w/o refilling our meter) and any other class . Take those from those classes and then take the stealth from us . And who in the hell told ya that there will be even balance in any of MMos . this is a dream of pugs like you . A true pvper can draw the capabilities of his class to the maximum and kill everything else . My mate can kill not 1 but 2 stealth rogues with CW . it's the most easy thing to do if you ever player TR and know it's basic mechanism . I don't mind making a guide for how to kill my class lmao .
Give me your account . i don't mind if it has a Dc in it . I will give you my Tr . I bet my ***** and 500 k AD that you won't be able to perma stealth more than 2 sec .And that goes to everyone . You still don't get that every skill of ours both in pve - pvp is being nerfed ?
And some TRs still don't get the number of nerfs don't mean shi*. The only thing that means anything is if the character is balanced in regards to general performance as compared to other classes under combat conditions.
Is it?
■ I'll bet MY 500k AD that if we gather a number of best players from each classes and have a tournament, TRs will dominate the end-game results. My guess would probably be that of the top-10, at least half of them would be TRs.
■ I can also pretty much assume that when you pick out and pit the very best players of each classes and pit them against each other in multiple random 1vs1s, most classes will have similar notable win-loss ratios, except the TR. The TR would outscoure in win/loss ratios all other classes by far.
■ All the other classes would have comparable wins and losses against others, but against TRs they will have much higher loss records than any other. The only other people that would still at least come out with a decent score against TRs would be certain GWF players that immediately come into my mind. All the rest of players be they HRs or CWs, they'll be proficient and skilled enough to fight the good fight against the best TRs, but ultimately they will be losing much more often than winning.
■ I can also, with confidence, argue that if there is ever a statistical survey of how TRs are doing in average, even if we mix PuG and Premade level matches alike, the TR would still come out on top.
■ Let's not even start looking into how TRs influence PvP outside of just 1vs1 encounters, in the tactical/strategical sense, of how a single good TR could carry the entire team to victory in many cases, despite pitiful performance of all the rest of the team.
Trs should have the higher instant dps and like any other MMO the best EVASION capability.Stealth is this our evasion capability along with impossible to catch .
Er... no. You don't call stealth and ITC "evasion". You call it "invincibility" or "god-mode".
Remember how people used to sneer at mod2 GWFs as having "godmode"? Why was the GWF so obscenely powerful then? Because of Unstoppable. A special utility power that grants huge amounts of defense and total immunity to controls (except for certain powers which were bugged -- unintended results). The entire GWF build centered around that one power, and then the class became so powerful upto the levels where even the best of TR players would comment; "nothing beats the GWF 1vs1, the best of TRs may stalemate it at best".
In the end, stealth is effectively a special utility that functions the same as Unstoppable. People can go around discussing their wild dreams of how they flush out TRs from stealth, or how they may hit it with AoE powers. As TRs, both you and I know its wishful thinking at best. Any methodology of how non-TRs might flush out TRs from stealth is so inefficient and unreliable in reality, that every TR knows that they are safe from most anything as long as they are stealthed.
You can't hit something you cannot see. And when you aren't hit at all, conceptually it's the same thing as 100% mitigation. It's "invincibility" in any sense of the word, Don't try to deny this. A 100% defensive mitigation that also grants huge amount of damage boost at the same time. That's what stealth is.
Hence, I bid you tread carefully when you take stealth and stealth-oriented TR builds as of current, for granted. Again, both you know and I know that well-built TRs with such builds have almost 0 vulnerability time, in some cases simply 0 visibility time at all. Effectively the only time the "godmode" of stealth is off, he is in ITC. When ITC finishes, he is back into stealth.
This is essentially the same thing as mod2 GWFs entering Unstoppable almost back to back.
So tell me, why were GWFs nerfed again?
Try playing a healer without his shield or blink . Same goes for Hrs who can travel from the one side of the map to the other just by swifting Qing the gfws that got higher speed than an epic mount for more than our perma stealth lasts ( w/o refilling our meter) and any other class . Take those from those classes and then take the stealth from us .
The GWF/DC was nerfed through heal depression, which drastically reduced the efficiency of DCs as well as brought Unstoppable down to tolerable levels. Mod3 nerfed GWF damage capacity in an attempt to seperate damage builds from tank builds.
HR bugged powers, which were the epicenter of their masterful and crapshi* levels of CC, were corrected. Bugs were fixed. The blatant OP Fox's Shift also got the nerf-bat.
CWs were also hit critically from Tenacity, even with 66% resistance penetration most CW builds that did not invest into WIS stats now cannot reliably hit the Shard combos. Those that can do so with enough WIS investment, suffered a big loss in damage.
GFs weren't effected by much, but then GFs were never considered major contendors of PvP, although there are some excellent players who'd give anyone a run for their money in combat.
....
So, just exactly what did us TR get nerfed in? Impact Shot? :rolleyes:
And who in the hell told ya that there will be even balance in any of MMos . this is a dream of pugs like you . A true pvper can draw the capabilities of his class to the maximum and kill everything else . My mate can kill not 1 but 2 stealth rogues with CW. it's the most easy thing to do if you ever player TR and know it's basic mechanism . I don't mind making a guide for how to kill my class lmao .
PuG argument right back at ya: try pitting your mate against premade level TRs and let's see how much he lasts against ONE TR. I wouldn't even suggest two, since that's going to be like the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre all over again.
Besides, I find it highly entertaining that despite the specific comment above which goes; "who in the hell told ya that there will be even balance in any of MMos . this is a dream of pugs like you . A true pvper can draw the capabilities of his class to the maximum and kill everything else", you fear deeply about TR nerfs, which are in many cases admittedly deserving.
Under your logic, you shouldn't have any problems with any further balancing on TRs -- even if they over do it.You claim "a true pvper can draw the capabilities of his class to the maximum and kill everything else", so, even if they balance out TRs you shouldn't have any problems at all.
...
You claim balancing TRs will gimp them, and TRs are supposed to have all that stealth and damage. So you fiercely object the notion of balancing the TR. And yet, in regards to how other classes are pitted against the TR, you claim a true pvper is uneffected by difference in class balance, and its only people who suck that complain.
Double standard arguments. They get you every time, don't they. *snicker* :rolleyes:
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
And some TRs still don't get the number of nerfs don't mean shi*. The only thing that means anything is if the character is balanced in regards to general performance as compared to other classes under combat conditions.
Is it?
■ I'll bet MY 500k AD that if we gather a number of best players from each classes and have a tournament, TRs will dominate the end-game results. My guess would probably be that of the top-10, at least half of them would be TRs.
■ I can also pretty much assume that when you pick out and pit the very best players of each classes and pit them against each other in multiple random 1vs1s, most classes will have similar notable win-loss ratios, except the TR. The TR would outscoure in win/loss ratios all other classes by far.
■ All the other classes would have comparable wins and losses against others, but against TRs they will have much higher loss records than any other. The only other people that would still at least come out with a decent score against TRs would be certain GWF players that immediately come into my mind. All the rest of players be they HRs or CWs, they'll be proficient and skilled enough to fight the good fight against the best TRs, but ultimately they will be losing much more often than winning.
■ I can also, with confidence, argue that if there is ever a statistical survey of how TRs are doing in average, even if we mix PuG and Premade level matches alike, the TR would still come out on top.
■ Let's not even start looking into how TRs influence PvP outside of just 1vs1 encounters, in the tactical/strategical sense, of how a single good TR could carry the entire team to victory in many cases, despite pitiful performance of all the rest of the team.
Er... no. You don't call stealth and ITC "evasion". You call it "invincibility" or "god-mode".
Remember how people used to sneer at mod2 GWFs as having "godmode"? Why was the GWF so obscenely powerful then? Because of Unstoppable. A special utility power that grants huge amounts of defense and total immunity to controls (except for certain powers which were bugged -- unintended results). The entire GWF build centered around that one power, and then the class became so powerful upto the levels where even the best of TR players would comment; "nothing beats the GWF 1vs1, the best of TRs may stalemate it at best".
In the end, stealth is effectively a special utility that functions the same as Unstoppable. People can go around discussing their wild dreams of how they flush out TRs from stealth, or how they may hit it with AoE powers. As TRs, both you and I know its wishful thinking at best. Any methodology of how non-TRs might flush out TRs from stealth is so inefficient and unreliable in reality, that every TR knows that they are safe from most anything as long as they are stealthed.
You can't hit something you cannot see. And when you aren't hit at all, conceptually it's the same thing as 100% mitigation. It's "invincibility" in any sense of the word, Don't try to deny this. A 100% defensive mitigation that also grants huge amount of damage boost at the same time. That's what stealth is.
Hence, I bid you tread carefully when you take stealth and stealth-oriented TR builds as of current, for granted. Again, both you know and I know that well-built TRs with such builds have almost 0 vulnerability time, in some cases simply 0 visibility time at all. Effectively the only time the "godmode" of stealth is off, he is in ITC. When ITC finishes, he is back into stealth.
This is essentially the same thing as mod2 GWFs entering Unstoppable almost back to back.
So tell me, why were GWFs nerfed again?
The GWF/DC was nerfed through heal depression, which drastically reduced the efficiency of DCs as well as brought Unstoppable down to tolerable levels. Mod3 nerfed GWF damage capacity in an attempt to seperate damage builds from tank builds.
HR bugged powers, which were the epicenter of their masterful and crapshi* levels of CC, were corrected. Bugs were fixed. The blatant OP Fox's Shift also got the nerf-bat.
CWs were also hit critically from Tenacity, even with 66% resistance penetration most CW builds that did not invest into WIS stats now cannot reliably hit the Shard combos. Those that can do so with enough WIS investment, suffered a big loss in damage.
GFs weren't effected by much, but then GFs were never considered major contendors of PvP, although there are some excellent players who'd give anyone a run for their money in combat.
....
So, just exactly what did us TR get nerfed in? Impact Shot? :rolleyes:
PuG argument right back at ya: try pitting your mate against premade level TRs and let's see how much he lasts against ONE TR. I wouldn't even suggest two, since that's going to be like the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre all over again.
Besides, I find it highly entertaining that despite the specific comment above which goes; "who in the hell told ya that there will be even balance in any of MMos . this is a dream of pugs like you . A true pvper can draw the capabilities of his class to the maximum and kill everything else", you fear deeply about TR nerfs, which are in many cases admittedly deserving.
Under your logic, you shouldn't have any problems with any further balancing on TRs -- even if they over do it.You claim "a true pvper can draw the capabilities of his class to the maximum and kill everything else", so, even if they balance out TRs you shouldn't have any problems at all.
...
You claim balancing TRs will gimp them, and TRs are supposed to have all that stealth and damage. So you fiercely object the notion of balancing the TR. And yet, in regards to how other classes are pitted against the TR, you claim a true pvper is uneffected by difference in class balance, and its only people who suck that complain.
Double standard arguments. They get you every time, don't they. *snicker* :rolleyes:
Ts . Seems i lost here . And since i am kinda sad of my outburst i will provide you with a way to follow up TRS even on perma stealth like you see them .There is a glitch ( i think it's made from the devs ) If you pay close attention you will manage to see trs weapon(It appears mostly like a shadow , a change in the graphics ) .Like that it's pretty easy to land on him a debuff attack with prone or control effect which will lead to his death 95-100 % .Who would have thought that stealth turns the tr invis but not entirely .I would only accept a nerf on the class skill "Tenacious Concealment" .It reduces our stealth meter loss by incoming dmg by a certain % . But don't ask to reduce more our dmg or the actual time we can stay in stealth . Like that killing a tr will be a child's play .I am not scared of any nerfs .Eventually i am a purely dps TR .I am not using perma stealth skills but i don't wish the time we go in stealth to be nerfed . So nerfing TC would be the most appealing option for us .
All I'll say as a TR is that the best CW can take down the best TR at any given time.
reason, TR playstyle is totally dependant on idea and deception, not just on skills. It involves when and how to engage an opponents, not to rambo in and so and so. PvP isn't just spam skills like most pug players think. PvP is coordination and innovative thinking at it's max
so just like the best TR would know when and how to engage the CW, the best CW (unlike pug CW) would have the perfect idea about how and when the TR will engage them and how to defend themselves for all their skills have aoe potential.
and for every other player out there who doesn't know this, perma invisi works on perfect rotation. mess it up by even 1 skill and perma invi is gone. No TR whose rotation has been messed can go back in perma invi back immediately. hence you must pressure him to mess his own rotation. It all comes down to mind tricks than given skills tbh.
and that's what i use for maximum fun and trust me i don't need perma invi to remain invi long enough to lose heat from other players (yes what you can't see you don't chase but most of the time if you chased you would have killed that TR)
Comments
I play both, Whisper is by far more fragile and less damaging than infiltrator. That said whisperknife is more fun, because it is a challenge with no immunity or "i win" daily.
Sorry but the range factor of one at will doesn't make up for how utterly behind it's brother this path is.
Screw it. Why not the six like HRs? I'll never understand why the supposedly most nimble class in the game has only 2 dodges like a Cleric. HR and TR should both have three (max).
Want stealth removed? Give TRs all their abilities as if in stealth and buff those they nerfed in the past. Obviously people will then throw up complaints when they watch a TR burn down a GWF in seconds but, meh, can't make everyone happy right?
Yes because fighting 4v5 for two points that are barely going to give points vs holding one for the ENTIRE time by following your tactic is a valid move!! :rolleyes: Almost as valid as thinking that rogue is going to do nothing for minutes on end, but sit at a single point while his entire team fights.
What a bunch of gibberish that doesn't actually address any point, and just theorycrafts random BS. The fact that this is not some random event, and is clearly noticed by a lot of classes, including your own paints you as the usual "dont nerf me, my tactic is valid". What tactic? You have a rotation.. in pvp, with the need to sometimes use an immunity should you be lazy or screw up.
I COULD NOT BE MORE AGREED
i play both whisperknife and Master infiltrator, i prefer whisperknife more... or i did until they give us a 14 sec on our only worth, skill now it's useless in every way possible
honestly, i will prefer something that allow us to breack free from control instead of the stealth, or deflect control, while we have some ... mechanic bar... or give us some more mechanism of defense, since we are the class so dependant of our mechanic that out of it, we are very much dead
Honestly, i just don't understand the line of thinking of the devs, they want to nerf the Rogues because of the permastealth, while the make almost every aspect of the game push you into perma! it's completely anoying
This kind of shows just how warped the awareness of most TR players are, when it comes to just what their class should be, or should not be doing. It's either TRs have to ROFLSTOMP with one-shot damage, or TRs have to ROFLSTOMP by remaining untouchable in stealth. Its either OP-ness in one extreme or the other.
Whatever happened to the middle ground? TR players seem to consider every bit of balancing -- which were mostly well deserved, mind you -- as being gimped in one way or another. Some weird sense of insecurity seems to linger around the notion that TRs might need to actually fight a fight where the opponent doesn't receive a one-sided beating with 0 chance of retaliation.
The general attitude is like;
Although I neither condone, nor condemn the Combat TR playstyle -- the so-called "Combat TR" is actually closer to what TRs should be, in regards to general balance, not the untouchable/unkillable freak it is with the INT/REC builds.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You clearly have not played as a HR. 6 dodges? In theory, sure. But they don't dodge anything in reality. You really need to use 2-3 to avoid one strike, and you need to dodge waaay earlier than with TR/CW for example. If you dodge when you would usually dodge with a CW for example, you WILL GET HIT!
I have also noticed that it's very hard to dodge anything a CW throws at you. Not even spamming all 6 dodges might actually dodge an attack. And same against HR, you can spam your dodges and still get nailed to the wall. I know this because I play HR, and as a HR I always try to dodge a lot against another HR in the first few seconds we meet. Since I know he will put some kind of CC on me if I don't. Usually after burning 2-4 dodges I will be in CC anyway. Sure, it works the other way around too, I will get CC on him.
I would be so very very happy to get the same dodge ability that CW has. 3 good ones. (more than good, it is pretty broken(I played CW for 11 months so I should know))
Hell. I would trade all my ****ty HR dodges for the 2 that TR have. Ok this became a ramble but point being, do not complain about HR dodges, because it sucks major <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
It's actually more dependant on what you are attempting to dodge, rather than how your dodge is. I've written about this a few times, but to summarize, the NW powers are generally like as described below:
(1) Instan power activation in conjunction with instant animation: most at-wills, etc..
(2) Delayed power activation in conjunction with delayed animation: Dazing Strike, Vengeance's Pursuit, etc..
(3) Instant power activation, despite delayed anination: Takedown, Entangling Force, etc..
(1) would be the intuitive case where "what you see is what you get", and therefore dodge "what you see", and you will not be hit
(2) is also easy to understand. Powers like Dazing Strike has a set-up motion. If you dodge during that set-up, you will not be hit.
(3) is the case where people feel certain powers are incredibly hard to dodge.
Takedown for instance, you see a GWF raise his weapon over the shoulder, ready to strike down. You dodge at that exact timing. In this case, you will be hit and proned in the middle of your dodge. You are already registered as a hit at activation of TD, and when the animation finishes (the hilt strikes down), the result of the hit -- prone -- manifests, even if you are in the dodging/teleporting motion.
Entangling Force, likewise. Seemingly, the power activates after the wizard waves his arms around in a castng motion. However, this is not so. The hit actually registers at the moment when the power is activated, not when the wizard finishes waving his arms. Therefore, if you start dodging as he waves his arms, then you are too late. You will be held.
Empirically, to successfully dodge TD or EF, you need to anticiapte and enter dodge just before the power activation, unlike most powers which you may be able to visually confirm, and then dodge.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Give me your account . i don't mind if it has a Dc in it . I will give you my Tr . I bet my ***** and 500 k AD that you won't be able to perma stealth more than 2 sec .And that goes to everyone . You still don't get that every skill of ours both in pve - pvp is being nerfed ? Trs should have the higher instant dps and like any other MMO the best EVASION capability .Stealth is this our evasion capability along with impossible to catch . Try playing a healer without his shield or blink . Same goes for Hrs who can travel from the one side of the map to the other just by swifting Qing the gfws that got higher speed than an epic mount for more than our perma stealth lasts ( w/o refilling our meter) and any other class . Take those from those classes and then take the stealth from us . And who in the hell told ya that there will be even balance in any of MMos . this is a dream of pugs like you . A true pvper can draw the capabilities of his class to the maximum and kill everything else . My mate can kill not 1 but 2 stealth rogues with CW . it's the most easy thing to do if you ever player TR and know it's basic mechanism . I don't mind making a guide for how to kill my class lmao .
And some TRs still don't get the number of nerfs don't mean shi*. The only thing that means anything is if the character is balanced in regards to general performance as compared to other classes under combat conditions.
Is it?
■ I'll bet MY 500k AD that if we gather a number of best players from each classes and have a tournament, TRs will dominate the end-game results. My guess would probably be that of the top-10, at least half of them would be TRs.
■ I can also pretty much assume that when you pick out and pit the very best players of each classes and pit them against each other in multiple random 1vs1s, most classes will have similar notable win-loss ratios, except the TR. The TR would outscoure in win/loss ratios all other classes by far.
■ All the other classes would have comparable wins and losses against others, but against TRs they will have much higher loss records than any other. The only other people that would still at least come out with a decent score against TRs would be certain GWF players that immediately come into my mind. All the rest of players be they HRs or CWs, they'll be proficient and skilled enough to fight the good fight against the best TRs, but ultimately they will be losing much more often than winning.
■ I can also, with confidence, argue that if there is ever a statistical survey of how TRs are doing in average, even if we mix PuG and Premade level matches alike, the TR would still come out on top.
■ Let's not even start looking into how TRs influence PvP outside of just 1vs1 encounters, in the tactical/strategical sense, of how a single good TR could carry the entire team to victory in many cases, despite pitiful performance of all the rest of the team.
Er... no. You don't call stealth and ITC "evasion". You call it "invincibility" or "god-mode".
Remember how people used to sneer at mod2 GWFs as having "godmode"? Why was the GWF so obscenely powerful then? Because of Unstoppable. A special utility power that grants huge amounts of defense and total immunity to controls (except for certain powers which were bugged -- unintended results). The entire GWF build centered around that one power, and then the class became so powerful upto the levels where even the best of TR players would comment; "nothing beats the GWF 1vs1, the best of TRs may stalemate it at best".
In the end, stealth is effectively a special utility that functions the same as Unstoppable. People can go around discussing their wild dreams of how they flush out TRs from stealth, or how they may hit it with AoE powers. As TRs, both you and I know its wishful thinking at best. Any methodology of how non-TRs might flush out TRs from stealth is so inefficient and unreliable in reality, that every TR knows that they are safe from most anything as long as they are stealthed.
You can't hit something you cannot see. And when you aren't hit at all, conceptually it's the same thing as 100% mitigation. It's "invincibility" in any sense of the word, Don't try to deny this. A 100% defensive mitigation that also grants huge amount of damage boost at the same time. That's what stealth is.
Hence, I bid you tread carefully when you take stealth and stealth-oriented TR builds as of current, for granted. Again, both you know and I know that well-built TRs with such builds have almost 0 vulnerability time, in some cases simply 0 visibility time at all. Effectively the only time the "godmode" of stealth is off, he is in ITC. When ITC finishes, he is back into stealth.
This is essentially the same thing as mod2 GWFs entering Unstoppable almost back to back.
So tell me, why were GWFs nerfed again?
The GWF/DC was nerfed through heal depression, which drastically reduced the efficiency of DCs as well as brought Unstoppable down to tolerable levels. Mod3 nerfed GWF damage capacity in an attempt to seperate damage builds from tank builds.
HR bugged powers, which were the epicenter of their masterful and crapshi* levels of CC, were corrected. Bugs were fixed. The blatant OP Fox's Shift also got the nerf-bat.
CWs were also hit critically from Tenacity, even with 66% resistance penetration most CW builds that did not invest into WIS stats now cannot reliably hit the Shard combos. Those that can do so with enough WIS investment, suffered a big loss in damage.
GFs weren't effected by much, but then GFs were never considered major contendors of PvP, although there are some excellent players who'd give anyone a run for their money in combat.
....
So, just exactly what did us TR get nerfed in? Impact Shot? :rolleyes:
PuG argument right back at ya: try pitting your mate against premade level TRs and let's see how much he lasts against ONE TR. I wouldn't even suggest two, since that's going to be like the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre all over again.
Besides, I find it highly entertaining that despite the specific comment above which goes; "who in the hell told ya that there will be even balance in any of MMos . this is a dream of pugs like you . A true pvper can draw the capabilities of his class to the maximum and kill everything else", you fear deeply about TR nerfs, which are in many cases admittedly deserving.
Under your logic, you shouldn't have any problems with any further balancing on TRs -- even if they over do it.You claim "a true pvper can draw the capabilities of his class to the maximum and kill everything else", so, even if they balance out TRs you shouldn't have any problems at all.
...
You claim balancing TRs will gimp them, and TRs are supposed to have all that stealth and damage. So you fiercely object the notion of balancing the TR. And yet, in regards to how other classes are pitted against the TR, you claim a true pvper is uneffected by difference in class balance, and its only people who suck that complain.
Double standard arguments. They get you every time, don't they. *snicker* :rolleyes:
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Ts . Seems i lost here . And since i am kinda sad of my outburst i will provide you with a way to follow up TRS even on perma stealth like you see them .There is a glitch ( i think it's made from the devs ) If you pay close attention you will manage to see trs weapon(It appears mostly like a shadow , a change in the graphics ) .Like that it's pretty easy to land on him a debuff attack with prone or control effect which will lead to his death 95-100 % .Who would have thought that stealth turns the tr invis but not entirely .I would only accept a nerf on the class skill "Tenacious Concealment" .It reduces our stealth meter loss by incoming dmg by a certain % . But don't ask to reduce more our dmg or the actual time we can stay in stealth . Like that killing a tr will be a child's play .I am not scared of any nerfs .Eventually i am a purely dps TR .I am not using perma stealth skills but i don't wish the time we go in stealth to be nerfed . So nerfing TC would be the most appealing option for us .
reason, TR playstyle is totally dependant on idea and deception, not just on skills. It involves when and how to engage an opponents, not to rambo in and so and so. PvP isn't just spam skills like most pug players think. PvP is coordination and innovative thinking at it's max
so just like the best TR would know when and how to engage the CW, the best CW (unlike pug CW) would have the perfect idea about how and when the TR will engage them and how to defend themselves for all their skills have aoe potential.
and for every other player out there who doesn't know this, perma invisi works on perfect rotation. mess it up by even 1 skill and perma invi is gone. No TR whose rotation has been messed can go back in perma invi back immediately. hence you must pressure him to mess his own rotation. It all comes down to mind tricks than given skills tbh.
and that's what i use for maximum fun and trust me i don't need perma invi to remain invi long enough to lose heat from other players (yes what you can't see you don't chase but most of the time if you chased you would have killed that TR)