silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2014
No actually, Icy Terrain is not a control spell which is actually what was being argued, or rather it takes too long and requires other spells to do its job for it.
Ergo in your example, you cannot use it to freeze mobs.
You need to literally pull all the mobs to its location with a Daily Power (Sing), then lock them in place for 3 seconds (Steal Time), then throw Conduit on it to ACTUALLY get Icy Terrain to freeze them...
Then... AFTER.... doing all that you can finally Shard them all up in a frozen group after ALL your other spells actually finally locked them down... which will of course break the freeze you just spent so much time preparing after about half a second with your Shards.
When in reality IF you want to do that all you really need is Sing, Steal Time, Shards, and you can ignore the rest.
(CoI if you want to debuff them and have it feated)
....and you can completely ignore the Icy Terrain portion and it won't even make a difference.
It cannot act on its own, its not a control spell and never has been.
It looks like we all agree in neverwinter "control" = DMG+additional effect. and frankly I play a CW and its not for control because with the exception of the choke and the push our control is 1 sec knockdowns and or stun/roots. yes steal time is awesome but also slow to cast close proximity and can get you killed for using it; but it is our most control like power as it has a multiple seconds heavy stun.
we have more options for "control" but all classes have some control options and may are awesome. looking at u smoke bomb..
the wisards role has always been aoe since they could throw a 30ft diameter fire ball. there the cloth waring glass cannons who kill the trash so the big nasty fighters and sneaky rogues can have a clear path to the bad guy.
and if everything went south the wizard would have a trick up his sleeve to help everyone get away. wizards are suppose to do crazy aoe damage and respectable single target dmg and have control option. there triad off was low hp and even lower defenses without magic to help them..
the devs and the community at large need to understand wizards don't need to be tuned or nerfed...
there the one class you actually did well guys "pat on the back"
your problem is you keep catering to ppl who who all what there character there class to be No.1 in every pvp matc and every dungion board.
my wizard is a cloth punching bag in pvp, and I usually don't top many boards in dungeons. but every group is glad to have me because i am the trash man and yes I help kill some of the more annoying lts and even bosses its always a team effort. the cleric mends my wounds the tanks/GWFs stops everything from out right swarming me by holding aggro and being strong enough to endure for minuets what kills me in seconds.
and I can see rogues and rangers kulling what ever strays are around the cleric or me and usualy faster than I can kill a single target.
and as it should be.
if you wind up in a dungeon with multiple CW in a group of course you will think there OP and without a tank when ever they hit the bosses they fold. "cant wait for the BUT my peepee is Bigger that yours" about that last comment.
last knight a GF was top kills and dmg dealer in frozen heart. he beat me,a gwf,and a executioner tr for top spots.
a tank... think about that.
"well u must sux hard buddy right" nope it was a fast easy run minimal wipes the cleric had to work a little harder on heals for the tank but that's the trade off all tank are forced to make to hold agro in this game now. no one called him a bad tank he held aggro like a champ.
I am willing to wager the devs themselves know there's nothing wrong with the CW but are under pressure to "fix" them.
look I know everyone loves to win and hates to lose but alot of sore losers will scream the loudest and longest shouting foul because they cant get threw there head "you cant win them all".
and I know especially in pvp i lose more than I win was the reverse prior to tenacity add on.
and hitting lvl 60.
and now they want to twiddle my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to make me even less effective in pvp and subsequently in dungeons.
tenacity makes my "control" almost useless so yes pvp specked CW will train for dmg and nothing but like someone said a dead mob is a controlled mob.
in a game where all you need is a shield (tank)and or a god mode tab toggle (gwf) to make both my dmg and control meaningless.
in a game where all you need is to sneak up on my and almost 1 shot me with a back stab, and most likely slip back into the shadows for EVER!!!
in a game where a ranger can kill me from afar or in melee can also heal himself and slip into shadows and dodge untill the cows come home. not to mention his control pwrs that I have no def against.
why wouldn't a cw min max there dmg is all were left with.
now you want to take that from me as well. in both pvp and pve, and in pve everyone will suffer without the trash man!
Nobody (as far as I am aware) is claiming that CWs are anything BUT glorified punchbags in PvP. This is a widely accepted fact, and CWs have been punchbags in PvP for ....quite some time.
The things you need to do in PvP are almost entirely different from those required in dungeons, though. You're up against 5 enemies, and only 5. All of them are human-intelligence, generally outputting spike damage and with varying degrees of control resistance. If you're using your standard "murdering heaps of trash" loadout and expecting it to work....then you're an idiot, frankly.
Thus: the "murdering heaps of trash" powers could happily be reworked without significantly impacting on PvP.
I'm actually preparing a topic with my point of view on the whole class. I will take my time reading it all before really replying to it.
My point of view isn't about what is overpower or such but more what we need to change to better feat in our role.
1- We aren't a support class.
>> DC are a support class, it's there job to put debuff on mob and to give us buff. But an huge part of our power (feat/...) give attenuation/mitigation/etc. Even our 4-pieces bonus is all about it. As example, a MoF thaum will debuff 5 targets for 21% with only CoI.
I suggest to remove most of our debuff to only keep some for PvP purpose and minor one. It will help support class and damage balance.
2- We are a control class, in both PvP and PvE.
In PvE, our job is to control in mass. And in PvP, it's our only way to survive.
I propose to increase the target number cap for reducing the CW stacking in dungeon. For Daily power, I see some think like 12/15 for control power (AS/IS/MoC) and 8 for more damaging power (OF/IF).
I propose that Repel can affect 3 targets when outside of tab and 8 when slotted, for Shield explosion and Steal Time too, and also for Shard maybe.
3- our 3 path should be useful and more clear.
If I keep my logic in #1, a lot of feat will need new effect since they don't give debuff/buff. Starting with the big one.
I propose to make a standardization of each tier in the path. So globally we can have :
tier 1 - situational feat like more damage if target below 30% HP, give damage buff if target have chill on them, etc.
tier 2 - Survival feat (see #4) like the one that repel on hit or that give temporary HP.
tier 3 - At-Will feat like the thrid strike of CC give a damage buff.
tier 4 - Encounter feat like more damage with shard or cooldown reduction on kill.
tier 5 - specific feat with both PvP and PvE effect
for the last feat, I propose :
Oppressor - Chill Strike increase Crit chance by xx% for y second, increase the max number of target to 3/8 and affected target receive 3 more chill stack.
Thaumaturge - CoI increase damage by xx% for y second, increase the max number of target to 3/8 and affected target have a chance to receive a chill stack.
Renegade - Entangling Force increase recovery by xx% for y second, increase the max number of target to 3/8 and give you 2 more arcane mastery stack.
4- survivability
Outside of slotting shield, we don't have a lot of survival specific tool for damage absorption/prevention.
I propose to add some feat that proc a shield on some condition, to extent the length of the repel (because of tenacity), etc.
Nobody (as far as I am aware) is claiming that CWs are anything BUT glorified punchbags in PvP. This is a widely accepted fact, and CWs have been punchbags in PvP for ....quite some time.
The things you need to do in PvP are almost entirely different from those required in dungeons, though. You're up against 5 enemies, and only 5. All of them are human-intelligence, generally outputting spike damage and with varying degrees of control resistance. If you're using your standard "murdering heaps of trash" loadout and expecting it to work....then you're an idiot, frankly.
Thus: the "murdering heaps of trash" powers could happily be reworked without significantly impacting on PvP.
totlly agree. whats annoying is the devs total lack of movemnet. they simply do not balance in pvp. very lazy. killing their own game. the TEN stat made controls wizs control (which was already meh in pvp) USELESS. i just don;t understand how a company that put so much time into making a game could care so little about a pretty big area of it. with mod 3 there is even more pvp stuff. but who cares if its this badly designed? i really, honestly cannot think of more out of touch lazy devs. its just stunning.
To be perfectly frank, I think the main problem here is the game mechanics of dungeons. The level of "difficulty" in this game is tantamount to how many spawns a boss has. I think this is pretty lazy and dumb. Instead of tweaking bosses' AIs to become more efficient during combat, the game chooses to nerf toons instead.
Just because a control wizard often gets top rank in Paingiver pts, doesn't mean they got the highest DPS. It's an accumulation of damage points from all the spawns designed to make the run "harder". But they aren't making the game harder, just longer, but there's no challenge to it. It just so happens that there are way too much adds and their spells are mostly AOE. That doesn't mean that they are "too" strong.
Have you tried playing a CW in pvp? Against everyone, cw seems to be the most useless now. We can't control, and can't damage effectively either.
Instead of having challenging Bosses, the devs result to the easiest route, which is to nerf classes. This shouldn't be called a "revamp"; it should be called "The CW being crippled in the months ahead." Going through a dungeon, seeing paingiver rank and seeing a CW there does not immediately conclude that "OH Fudge CWs are way too OP" need to nerf them some more. CWs are already crippled as it is. Does the game want everyone to be a GWF? Because it seems we're already on that road.
Most people who complain about CWs haven't actually played CWs or aren't their main. Try playing a CW in all aspects of the game, and then comment again if they are "too OP." Teams require a lot of CWs because the game content has way too many adds. How about making more challenging enemies that would enable the players to utilize all kinds of classes instead of the mentality: more mobs = harder dungeon. In pvp, where CWs aren't required to fight tons of mobs, and you can see they are the weakest; like the aforementioned posts, merely PUNCHING BAGS. I wish people working on the game would read these, perhaps it'd open their minds. I think they don't really play the game and just listen to people whine and it just so happens most people that whine about how OP cws are are not CWs or haven't played one.
they should just lower the aoe feats. this would curb our pve aoe dmg.oh and give more control in pvp. being called a control wizard and have 0.5 sec cc's is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> take. really. pretty sure they are trolling.
To be perfectly frank, I think the main problem here is the game mechanics of dungeons. The level of "difficulty" in this game is tantamount to how many spawns a boss has. I think this is pretty lazy and dumb. Instead of tweaking bosses' AIs to become more efficient during combat, the game chooses to nerf toons instead.
Just because a control wizard often gets top rank in Paingiver pts, doesn't mean they got the highest DPS. It's an accumulation of damage points from all the spawns designed to make the run "harder". But they aren't making the game harder, just longer, but there's no challenge to it. It just so happens that there are way too much adds and their spells are mostly AOE. That doesn't mean that they are "too" strong.
Have you tried playing a CW in pvp? Against everyone, cw seems to be the most useless now. We can't control, and can't damage effectively either.
Instead of having challenging Bosses, the devs result to the easiest route, which is to nerf classes. This shouldn't be called a "revamp"; it should be called "The CW being crippled in the months ahead." Going through a dungeon, seeing paingiver rank and seeing a CW there does not immediately conclude that "OH Fudge CWs are way too OP" need to nerf them some more. CWs are already crippled as it is. Does the game want everyone to be a GWF? Because it seems we're already on that road.
Most people who complain about CWs haven't actually played CWs or aren't their main. Try playing a CW in all aspects of the game, and then comment again if they are "too OP." Teams require a lot of CWs because the game content has way too many adds. How about making more challenging enemies that would enable the players to utilize all kinds of classes instead of the mentality: more mobs = harder dungeon. In pvp, where CWs aren't required to fight tons of mobs, and you can see they are the weakest; like the aforementioned posts, merely PUNCHING BAGS. I wish people working on the game would read these, perhaps it'd open their minds. I think they don't really play the game and just listen to people whine and it just so happens most people that whine about how OP cws are are not CWs or haven't played one.
Not to mention every single person goes after you because they die so easily, they even leave nodes at times to hunt the CW down like bloodthirsty savages.
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cprnMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2014
Lower the number of the adds in boss fight/trash but make them hit harder(crit for 3x dmg on non tanks) and have more hp(3 times whats now), this would nerf CW by making it impossible for them to take any hits and increase the need for a tank aka guardian fighters.
This game was build and designed around the idea of 1 tank , 1 healer and 3 dps(trinity) at the moment i see 5 dps groups or 4 dps and 1 healer because there's simply no need for a tank when you can survive 4-5 hits easily as a light armor class.
Uh. Pretty sure most squishies die pretty easily even now. My CW can be 1-shot by just about anything.
It's just that if everything is locked down you don't take any hits anyway, and dodging is a thing that exists.
The game was built around the idea of "not standing in red", really. It's definitely NOT a trinity game, and never has been. Healing output has never been that spectacular (and with most people stacking lifesteal now, it's even less needed), tanking has never been needed, and it's really all about getting enough mitigation to let the damage classes survive long enough to murder everything.
Easiest way to balance CWs is to decrease all damage done by about 15-30%. Let's be honest about this - even a pure control CW does waayyyy too much damage by the simple virtue having more powers than any other class that break the 5-target-limit rule. Add to that the fact that CWs are the game's strongest debuffers and the fact that they are the only class that can effectively re-position mobs and keep them clumped together -constantly- (which is like an indirect +50% to all AoE damage done by most classes, including the CW itself) and no wonder CWs keep topping dodge charts.
To make up for this in PvP, CW elemental damage powers now ignore something like 40-60% defense (as they should, I can understand armor resisting magical force damage but its ridiculous how leather/iron/steel armor works even against cold/fire/lightning damage) and cannot be deflected (CWs already had deflection and tenacity to contend with, now mod3 introduces artifacts that grant significant damage reduction through activated effects. Besides, in D&D deflect only worked against touch attack spells).
Voila. Just need to tweak the numbers/run countless simulations and you get PvE/PvP rebalance in a package that actually works both mechanically and lore-wise.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Easiest way to balance CWs is to decrease all damage done by about 15-30%. Let's be honest about this - even a pure control CW does waayyyy too much damage by the simple virtue having more powers than any other class that break the 5-target-limit rule. Add to that the fact that CWs are the game's strongest debuffers and the fact that they are the only class that can effectively re-position mobs and keep them clumped together -constantly- (which is like an indirect +50% to all AoE damage done by most classes, including the CW itself) and no wonder CWs keep topping dodge charts.
Which CWs should be..... considering they are AoE specialists designed to handle mass mobs... and damaging 10 mobs to everyone else's one... Even though the other damagers are already far outstripping their damage on a single target.
So... what exactly is the problem? Is that the only thing you could come up with?
If that's the case, you're going to have to nerf the hell out of all other classes single target damage because they're doing a LOT more than just 50% more than a CW. The damage the CWs are capable of is far below all other classes single target damage.
In a nutshell, if a CW is damaging 10 targets to all other SINGLE target classes ONE target they're on... then...
Paingiver SHOULD look like THIS:
CW: 10,000,000
All other Classes: 1,000,000
Instead it looks like THIS:
CW: 10,000,000
Other: 500,000 - 750,000
So they are doing SO much single target damage compared to the CW they are able to come THAT close to a CW who is damaging 10 targets to their ONE target. The DPS of other classes is SO high they're able to pull within 75% even though the CW is damaging 10 to 1.
So... if you did actually go that route... you'd have to Nerf all other classes Single target damage SO MUCH... just to be in line with the CW's Damage.... they would not be pleased.
1) Speak normal words.
2) Your numbers don't make sense, and your logic flawed. You actually don't think that the CW's High Vizier/Ray of Enfeeblement/feated CoI/feated arcane spells/reposition powers were not in some way responsible for significantly improving every other person's DPS?
How about doing a simple experiment - try asking every single experienced person in the game which of their characters finish their dailies the fastest.
3) Did you even take into account mod3 and the GWF/HR nerfs?
4) TR damage doesn't count unless we include bugged Bilethorn, in any case Wicked Reminder is a debuff (so it affects the entire party). And yes, TRs should actually top DPS charts since they are the -only- pure striker class in the game.
On that note, CWs are primary controllers, secondary strikers. That means the fact that you top DPS meters at all is a fluke, unless you're a godly pro Thaum. If Cryptic introduce War Wizards - the primary striker, secondary controller-type wizard - then as things currently are War Wizards would be so ridiculously OP they'd probably be able to one-hit entire groups of somethings in PvP/PvE with just their encounter powers.
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On that note, CWs are primary controllers, secondary strikers. That means the fact that you top DPS meters at all is a fluke, unless you're a godly pro Thaum. If Cryptic introduce War Wizards - the primary striker, secondary controller-type wizard - then as things currently are War Wizards would be so ridiculously OP they'd probably be able to one-hit entire groups of somethings in PvP/PvE with just their encounter powers.
Errm NO actually, they're just damaging more targets than you, and the more and more targets you throw at them the higher that damage goes... it has nothing to do with being higher damagers.
Not sure why you're not getting that point... but... NOW I see what your problem is... You THOUGHT CWs were actually controllers, so you've been under this misguided assumption all this time they were supposed to be Controllers PRIMARY because they had the word "CONTROL" in their name... you and 5 million others.
.... actually they're the complete reverse of what you thought they were at least according to how the class is ACTUALLY designed, not how you "wish" it was.
The only actual control spells the CW has... are all single target, and lower tier spells. Their 4th Tier spells are not and never were control spells.
The Top Tier Spells of the CW are AoE damagers and ALL things that contribute to DAMAGE... not control.
Eye of the Storm, Maelstrom of Chaos, AND Shards are all high damaging AoE spells with only a small control component.
Shards of Endless Avalanche is a High Damage AoE spell with ONLY a 1 second prone and 10-12 second recast timer so... you only get 1 second of actual control and the rest is ALL high damage explosion.
Maelstrom of Chaos: Is a High damage AoE daily with no target limit, that takes all targets bashing on you and dumps them away from you, so you can damage them from a distance again.
Eye of the Storm: Gives you a large chance to Crit with every damaging power you have. And increases that chance the larger and larger the area of effect of any given spell, AND increases the chance higher and higher depending on whether you use an At WILL or an Encounter power... and even INCREASE chance of procing IF YOU USE AN AOE.
The damage isn't an "accident". Its intended, and its intended to increase the more and more targets you throw at the CW and the more and more AoEs they use... Yes, its actually designed that way.
If you wanted an actual controller class you'd need to go make a whole new class.
Other upper Tier Spells are Debuffs like the Ray of Enfeeblement which debuffs while damaging, or Ice Knife (Daily) that has a one second prone on it.
The other Actual Control spell is Steal Time which is a very damaging spell... surprisingly... but ONLY.. a whopping 3 second Stun, and a 10-12 second recast timer. All the other things are All the low level low tier spells... including the one you know most... Singularity.
Yeah ALL the spells the CW has to group with and actually contribute to a group are DAMAGE spells their TOP TIER SPELLS... are not actual control spells.
IE... they've got a whopping 4 seconds of actual control when they put them all togather to function in a group.
I'm sure you were completely unaware of this... weren't you?
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
"Paingiver SHOULD look like THIS:
CW: 10,000,000
All other Classes: 1,000,000
Instead it looks like THIS:
CW: 10,000,000
Other: 500,000 - 750,000"
Are you kidding me???? That sounds balanced to you??? Ha, ha, ha, I thought wizards were supposed to be smart
Not sure what your point is.
What... did you expect that a guy who is damaging 10 targets to your 1 target to be doing ... errrm the same damage as you???
BUT... since you're having a difficult time with this... Let me Demonstrate...
Rogue does 150 damage to ONE target.
Mage does 50 damage to 10 targets.
Paingiver says:
Mage 500 damage
Rogue 150 damage
Yeah you've been lied to, you've been doing more damage per target than mages EVER have. Because Paingiver ACTUALLY looks like this.
Paingiver:
Mage: 500
Rogue 300
SO... how much more damage per target are you ACTUALLY doing over the mage... YEAH a hell of a lot more. You were ALWAYs outdamaging mages, but paingiver made you think we were just kicking the snot out of you... and obviously hurt your epeen.
1. I really think the CM should change the name of this thread, because it leads to nothing but teenagers discussion, should change that to: "My toughts about the future of Wizard" ~ Since there's nothing official or stated by someone who knows something. Just pointers.
2. Just started reading some of the comments and I'm very curious about what really makes god give hands to some people.
3. What your thoughts are all based on? Because I can't understand, really can't.
According to D&D:
Controllers
Five classes make up the controller role: the wizard in the Player’s Handbook, the druid and invoker in Player’s Handbook 2, and the psion and seeker from the forthcoming Player’s Handbook 3. Each class approaches the controller role in a different way, but what these classes bring to a combat encounter follows the role’s basic tactics. A controller discourages enemies from making certain choices with his area offense attacks, by which the controller punishes enemies from grouping together or takes a direct hand in influencing actions.
Control powers take many forms. A particular class’s story elements, power source, and secondary roles all influence the powers available to these characters. A wizard might create a freezing cloud, and a druid can call forth writhing vines by using vine serpents to immobilize or restrain foes. Zones might deal damage to creatures that enter or start their turns inside them. Powers might punish foes for making attacks, moving, or performing another kind of action. Other powers might call forth new opponents so that enemies must divide their attention between characters and the creatures they summon. In every case, a controller’s powers encourage certain options while punishing others.
Based on what is written, and what who have brain can think of: there are many manners of control, not just use of general area effects: Quotting a Designer: "But a controller is about more than just control, AoE Damage is part of his job description. Tony covers that pretty well, too.
So which build makes a better Controller? That's up to you to decide, because ultimately it's a playstyle choice. If, for you, doing AoE damage and forcing enemies to spread themselves thin to avoid that is your preferred method, then do that. If inflicting status effects and creating zones and walls is more your style, then that is what you should do.
Fail @ Game: There's nothing about "Control Wizard" anywhere, It's just Wizard. Or, If they ever release a Druid, It should be called "Control Druid", "Control Invoker", "Control Psion", and it's not about the role of its character, it's about it's niche; all these are Controllers; but they can control in many ways, and of course damage is one and Wizard does it well.
If you make a quick search on the internet about what is the most used Controller (D&D Based): You'll find that it's the Wizard, and why is that? Because everyone loves to be a damage dealer. For "Control" in terms of area effect and stuff, people enjoy more Invoker or Druids; because Wizard is not the best to stun, daze or w/e.
The real thing about this is that the CONTROL of Control Wizard shouldnt be there, because he is a controller by its nature, he should be just Wizard. Just like Druid and not Control Druid. They all should have some control stuff, but all them excels on their way on controlling. Some put walls, others does damage, others stun.
The final part, if you know when the truth is being written, you are here; is that the Dungeon Design of this game is a problem, because they are made for Wizards, just like that, they are MADE for Wizards, since they control by damage and it's full of trash. Just-like-that. It's so simple. If you are in a place that is made for you, that's not hard to be better than every other class in the game. I think they should just rename the Wizard, and release other Controllers: Plus, change the design of the dungeons.
In any case, whether or not GWFs are currently balanced is not the topic here, and I'm pretty sure Cryptic already receives enough hate posts regarding the current state of several GWF builds.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
In any case, whether or not GWFs are currently balanced is not the topic here, and I'm pretty sure Cryptic already receives enough hate posts regarding the current state of several GWF builds.
I don't care to hear one single whisper about needed CW nerf (much less from the "accessibility" class GWF) until CW's have 2 instant chain castable prones. Hell you can nerf some of my PvE dmg all you want, just let me roll my face on the keyboard from time to time and kill any other class in the game.
Definition of a broken class: One which 2 people can be running the exact same spec / rotations but 1 is 2-3k GS lower, but dominate the higher GS simply due to class ability. The lower GS GWF can still chain prone the other GWF and drop 50-75% their health in an instant and lol-sprint during the formers unstoppable. It all simply boils down to who hit their chain prone(s) first. I can promise you that as a 15.5k CW that someone running my exact same spec / spell load-out but having 12-13k GS will **** near NEVER EVER beat me. Blind squirrels may find nuts, but most of them just die.
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kaiserschmarrnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 390
edited May 2014
First things first - the CW is a great class, fun to play and feels powerful (as a wizard should).
BUT...
If you change the CW or the mechanics around the class then you really need to look at the whole game. The problem is that your entire end-game and all the high-end dungeons make a good CW mandatory if a group wants to experience that content without becoming frustrated. The CW is the only class providing enough control and aoe damage to deal with the endless spam of adds that most boss fights consist of.
The CW and it's synergies with the dungeon mechanics have been the biggest flaw of the game since it's release and unfortunately the designers have dug their own pit here. Because since launch the class has been increasingly buffed and there has been almost no change in dungeon design, Castle Never and Spell Plague are probably the worst examples here, but also the new dungeons make a CW mandatory.
If you change the core mechanics it will create ripples throughout the whole game. Significant changes to the CW will only become possible if the whole end-game content and the other classes receive a complete balance overhaul. By ignoring the problem for so long it has become far bigger than it should ever have been and any balance snapshot has the potential to ruin the whole experience for the players.
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Ergo in your example, you cannot use it to freeze mobs.
You need to literally pull all the mobs to its location with a Daily Power (Sing), then lock them in place for 3 seconds (Steal Time), then throw Conduit on it to ACTUALLY get Icy Terrain to freeze them...
Then... AFTER.... doing all that you can finally Shard them all up in a frozen group after ALL your other spells actually finally locked them down... which will of course break the freeze you just spent so much time preparing after about half a second with your Shards.
When in reality IF you want to do that all you really need is Sing, Steal Time, Shards, and you can ignore the rest.
(CoI if you want to debuff them and have it feated)
....and you can completely ignore the Icy Terrain portion and it won't even make a difference.
It cannot act on its own, its not a control spell and never has been.
But it is a debuff if you have it feated right.
we have more options for "control" but all classes have some control options and may are awesome. looking at u smoke bomb..
the wisards role has always been aoe since they could throw a 30ft diameter fire ball. there the cloth waring glass cannons who kill the trash so the big nasty fighters and sneaky rogues can have a clear path to the bad guy.
and if everything went south the wizard would have a trick up his sleeve to help everyone get away. wizards are suppose to do crazy aoe damage and respectable single target dmg and have control option. there triad off was low hp and even lower defenses without magic to help them..
the devs and the community at large need to understand wizards don't need to be tuned or nerfed...
there the one class you actually did well guys "pat on the back"
your problem is you keep catering to ppl who who all what there character there class to be No.1 in every pvp matc and every dungion board.
my wizard is a cloth punching bag in pvp, and I usually don't top many boards in dungeons. but every group is glad to have me because i am the trash man and yes I help kill some of the more annoying lts and even bosses its always a team effort. the cleric mends my wounds the tanks/GWFs stops everything from out right swarming me by holding aggro and being strong enough to endure for minuets what kills me in seconds.
and I can see rogues and rangers kulling what ever strays are around the cleric or me and usualy faster than I can kill a single target.
and as it should be.
if you wind up in a dungeon with multiple CW in a group of course you will think there OP and without a tank when ever they hit the bosses they fold. "cant wait for the BUT my peepee is Bigger that yours" about that last comment.
last knight a GF was top kills and dmg dealer in frozen heart. he beat me,a gwf,and a executioner tr for top spots.
a tank... think about that.
"well u must sux hard buddy right" nope it was a fast easy run minimal wipes the cleric had to work a little harder on heals for the tank but that's the trade off all tank are forced to make to hold agro in this game now. no one called him a bad tank he held aggro like a champ.
I am willing to wager the devs themselves know there's nothing wrong with the CW but are under pressure to "fix" them.
look I know everyone loves to win and hates to lose but alot of sore losers will scream the loudest and longest shouting foul because they cant get threw there head "you cant win them all".
and I know especially in pvp i lose more than I win was the reverse prior to tenacity add on.
and hitting lvl 60.
and now they want to twiddle my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to make me even less effective in pvp and subsequently in dungeons.
tenacity makes my "control" almost useless so yes pvp specked CW will train for dmg and nothing but like someone said a dead mob is a controlled mob.
in a game where all you need is a shield (tank)and or a god mode tab toggle (gwf) to make both my dmg and control meaningless.
in a game where all you need is to sneak up on my and almost 1 shot me with a back stab, and most likely slip back into the shadows for EVER!!!
in a game where a ranger can kill me from afar or in melee can also heal himself and slip into shadows and dodge untill the cows come home. not to mention his control pwrs that I have no def against.
why wouldn't a cw min max there dmg is all were left with.
now you want to take that from me as well. in both pvp and pve, and in pve everyone will suffer without the trash man!
The things you need to do in PvP are almost entirely different from those required in dungeons, though. You're up against 5 enemies, and only 5. All of them are human-intelligence, generally outputting spike damage and with varying degrees of control resistance. If you're using your standard "murdering heaps of trash" loadout and expecting it to work....then you're an idiot, frankly.
Thus: the "murdering heaps of trash" powers could happily be reworked without significantly impacting on PvP.
our control in pvp is awful. like just worthless
totlly agree. whats annoying is the devs total lack of movemnet. they simply do not balance in pvp. very lazy. killing their own game. the TEN stat made controls wizs control (which was already meh in pvp) USELESS. i just don;t understand how a company that put so much time into making a game could care so little about a pretty big area of it. with mod 3 there is even more pvp stuff. but who cares if its this badly designed? i really, honestly cannot think of more out of touch lazy devs. its just stunning.
Just because a control wizard often gets top rank in Paingiver pts, doesn't mean they got the highest DPS. It's an accumulation of damage points from all the spawns designed to make the run "harder". But they aren't making the game harder, just longer, but there's no challenge to it. It just so happens that there are way too much adds and their spells are mostly AOE. That doesn't mean that they are "too" strong.
Have you tried playing a CW in pvp? Against everyone, cw seems to be the most useless now. We can't control, and can't damage effectively either.
Instead of having challenging Bosses, the devs result to the easiest route, which is to nerf classes. This shouldn't be called a "revamp"; it should be called "The CW being crippled in the months ahead." Going through a dungeon, seeing paingiver rank and seeing a CW there does not immediately conclude that "OH Fudge CWs are way too OP" need to nerf them some more. CWs are already crippled as it is. Does the game want everyone to be a GWF? Because it seems we're already on that road.
Most people who complain about CWs haven't actually played CWs or aren't their main. Try playing a CW in all aspects of the game, and then comment again if they are "too OP." Teams require a lot of CWs because the game content has way too many adds. How about making more challenging enemies that would enable the players to utilize all kinds of classes instead of the mentality: more mobs = harder dungeon. In pvp, where CWs aren't required to fight tons of mobs, and you can see they are the weakest; like the aforementioned posts, merely PUNCHING BAGS. I wish people working on the game would read these, perhaps it'd open their minds. I think they don't really play the game and just listen to people whine and it just so happens most people that whine about how OP cws are are not CWs or haven't played one.
Not to mention every single person goes after you because they die so easily, they even leave nodes at times to hunt the CW down like bloodthirsty savages.
This game was build and designed around the idea of 1 tank , 1 healer and 3 dps(trinity) at the moment i see 5 dps groups or 4 dps and 1 healer because there's simply no need for a tank when you can survive 4-5 hits easily as a light armor class.
It's just that if everything is locked down you don't take any hits anyway, and dodging is a thing that exists.
The game was built around the idea of "not standing in red", really. It's definitely NOT a trinity game, and never has been. Healing output has never been that spectacular (and with most people stacking lifesteal now, it's even less needed), tanking has never been needed, and it's really all about getting enough mitigation to let the damage classes survive long enough to murder everything.
To make up for this in PvP, CW elemental damage powers now ignore something like 40-60% defense (as they should, I can understand armor resisting magical force damage but its ridiculous how leather/iron/steel armor works even against cold/fire/lightning damage) and cannot be deflected (CWs already had deflection and tenacity to contend with, now mod3 introduces artifacts that grant significant damage reduction through activated effects. Besides, in D&D deflect only worked against touch attack spells).
Voila. Just need to tweak the numbers/run countless simulations and you get PvE/PvP rebalance in a package that actually works both mechanically and lore-wise.
Which CWs should be..... considering they are AoE specialists designed to handle mass mobs... and damaging 10 mobs to everyone else's one... Even though the other damagers are already far outstripping their damage on a single target.
So... what exactly is the problem? Is that the only thing you could come up with?
If that's the case, you're going to have to nerf the hell out of all other classes single target damage because they're doing a LOT more than just 50% more than a CW. The damage the CWs are capable of is far below all other classes single target damage.
In a nutshell, if a CW is damaging 10 targets to all other SINGLE target classes ONE target they're on... then...
Paingiver SHOULD look like THIS:
CW: 10,000,000
All other Classes: 1,000,000
Instead it looks like THIS:
CW: 10,000,000
Other: 500,000 - 750,000
So they are doing SO much single target damage compared to the CW they are able to come THAT close to a CW who is damaging 10 targets to their ONE target. The DPS of other classes is SO high they're able to pull within 75% even though the CW is damaging 10 to 1.
So... if you did actually go that route... you'd have to Nerf all other classes Single target damage SO MUCH... just to be in line with the CW's Damage.... they would not be pleased.
So why would you want to do that?
2) Your numbers don't make sense, and your logic flawed. You actually don't think that the CW's High Vizier/Ray of Enfeeblement/feated CoI/feated arcane spells/reposition powers were not in some way responsible for significantly improving every other person's DPS?
How about doing a simple experiment - try asking every single experienced person in the game which of their characters finish their dailies the fastest.
3) Did you even take into account mod3 and the GWF/HR nerfs?
4) TR damage doesn't count unless we include bugged Bilethorn, in any case Wicked Reminder is a debuff (so it affects the entire party). And yes, TRs should actually top DPS charts since they are the -only- pure striker class in the game.
On that note, CWs are primary controllers, secondary strikers. That means the fact that you top DPS meters at all is a fluke, unless you're a godly pro Thaum. If Cryptic introduce War Wizards - the primary striker, secondary controller-type wizard - then as things currently are War Wizards would be so ridiculously OP they'd probably be able to one-hit entire groups of somethings in PvP/PvE with just their encounter powers.
CW: 10,000,000
All other Classes: 1,000,000
Instead it looks like THIS:
CW: 10,000,000
Other: 500,000 - 750,000"
Are you kidding me???? That sounds balanced to you??? Ha, ha, ha, I thought wizards were supposed to be smart
Errm NO actually, they're just damaging more targets than you, and the more and more targets you throw at them the higher that damage goes... it has nothing to do with being higher damagers.
Not sure why you're not getting that point... but... NOW I see what your problem is... You THOUGHT CWs were actually controllers, so you've been under this misguided assumption all this time they were supposed to be Controllers PRIMARY because they had the word "CONTROL" in their name... you and 5 million others.
.... actually they're the complete reverse of what you thought they were at least according to how the class is ACTUALLY designed, not how you "wish" it was.
The only actual control spells the CW has... are all single target, and lower tier spells. Their 4th Tier spells are not and never were control spells.
The Top Tier Spells of the CW are AoE damagers and ALL things that contribute to DAMAGE... not control.
Eye of the Storm, Maelstrom of Chaos, AND Shards are all high damaging AoE spells with only a small control component.
Shards of Endless Avalanche is a High Damage AoE spell with ONLY a 1 second prone and 10-12 second recast timer so... you only get 1 second of actual control and the rest is ALL high damage explosion.
Maelstrom of Chaos: Is a High damage AoE daily with no target limit, that takes all targets bashing on you and dumps them away from you, so you can damage them from a distance again.
Eye of the Storm: Gives you a large chance to Crit with every damaging power you have. And increases that chance the larger and larger the area of effect of any given spell, AND increases the chance higher and higher depending on whether you use an At WILL or an Encounter power... and even INCREASE chance of procing IF YOU USE AN AOE.
The damage isn't an "accident". Its intended, and its intended to increase the more and more targets you throw at the CW and the more and more AoEs they use... Yes, its actually designed that way.
If you wanted an actual controller class you'd need to go make a whole new class.
Other upper Tier Spells are Debuffs like the Ray of Enfeeblement which debuffs while damaging, or Ice Knife (Daily) that has a one second prone on it.
The other Actual Control spell is Steal Time which is a very damaging spell... surprisingly... but ONLY.. a whopping 3 second Stun, and a 10-12 second recast timer. All the other things are All the low level low tier spells... including the one you know most... Singularity.
Yeah ALL the spells the CW has to group with and actually contribute to a group are DAMAGE spells their TOP TIER SPELLS... are not actual control spells.
IE... they've got a whopping 4 seconds of actual control when they put them all togather to function in a group.
I'm sure you were completely unaware of this... weren't you?
Not sure what your point is.
What... did you expect that a guy who is damaging 10 targets to your 1 target to be doing ... errrm the same damage as you???
BUT... since you're having a difficult time with this... Let me Demonstrate...
Rogue does 150 damage to ONE target.
Mage does 50 damage to 10 targets.
Paingiver says:
Mage 500 damage
Rogue 150 damage
Yeah you've been lied to, you've been doing more damage per target than mages EVER have. Because Paingiver ACTUALLY looks like this.
Paingiver:
Mage: 500
Rogue 300
SO... how much more damage per target are you ACTUALLY doing over the mage... YEAH a hell of a lot more. You were ALWAYs outdamaging mages, but paingiver made you think we were just kicking the snot out of you... and obviously hurt your epeen.
We are indeed, this guy is asking more power to us, ¿thats no clever?
We gonna rule the world :P
2. Just started reading some of the comments and I'm very curious about what really makes god give hands to some people.
3. What your thoughts are all based on? Because I can't understand, really can't.
According to D&D:
Controllers
Five classes make up the controller role: the wizard in the Player’s Handbook, the druid and invoker in Player’s Handbook 2, and the psion and seeker from the forthcoming Player’s Handbook 3. Each class approaches the controller role in a different way, but what these classes bring to a combat encounter follows the role’s basic tactics. A controller discourages enemies from making certain choices with his area offense attacks, by which the controller punishes enemies from grouping together or takes a direct hand in influencing actions.
Control powers take many forms. A particular class’s story elements, power source, and secondary roles all influence the powers available to these characters. A wizard might create a freezing cloud, and a druid can call forth writhing vines by using vine serpents to immobilize or restrain foes. Zones might deal damage to creatures that enter or start their turns inside them. Powers might punish foes for making attacks, moving, or performing another kind of action. Other powers might call forth new opponents so that enemies must divide their attention between characters and the creatures they summon. In every case, a controller’s powers encourage certain options while punishing others.
Based on what is written, and what who have brain can think of: there are many manners of control, not just use of general area effects: Quotting a Designer: "But a controller is about more than just control, AoE Damage is part of his job description. Tony covers that pretty well, too.
So which build makes a better Controller? That's up to you to decide, because ultimately it's a playstyle choice. If, for you, doing AoE damage and forcing enemies to spread themselves thin to avoid that is your preferred method, then do that. If inflicting status effects and creating zones and walls is more your style, then that is what you should do.
Fail @ Game: There's nothing about "Control Wizard" anywhere, It's just Wizard. Or, If they ever release a Druid, It should be called "Control Druid", "Control Invoker", "Control Psion", and it's not about the role of its character, it's about it's niche; all these are Controllers; but they can control in many ways, and of course damage is one and Wizard does it well.
If you make a quick search on the internet about what is the most used Controller (D&D Based): You'll find that it's the Wizard, and why is that? Because everyone loves to be a damage dealer. For "Control" in terms of area effect and stuff, people enjoy more Invoker or Druids; because Wizard is not the best to stun, daze or w/e.
The real thing about this is that the CONTROL of Control Wizard shouldnt be there, because he is a controller by its nature, he should be just Wizard. Just like Druid and not Control Druid. They all should have some control stuff, but all them excels on their way on controlling. Some put walls, others does damage, others stun.
The final part, if you know when the truth is being written, you are here; is that the Dungeon Design of this game is a problem, because they are made for Wizards, just like that, they are MADE for Wizards, since they control by damage and it's full of trash. Just-like-that. It's so simple. If you are in a place that is made for you, that's not hard to be better than every other class in the game. I think they should just rename the Wizard, and release other Controllers: Plus, change the design of the dungeons.
Thanks for the attention.
Peace.
So what your saying is everyone should just play GWFs now?
In any case, whether or not GWFs are currently balanced is not the topic here, and I'm pretty sure Cryptic already receives enough hate posts regarding the current state of several GWF builds.
I don't care to hear one single whisper about needed CW nerf (much less from the "accessibility" class GWF) until CW's have 2 instant chain castable prones. Hell you can nerf some of my PvE dmg all you want, just let me roll my face on the keyboard from time to time and kill any other class in the game.
Definition of a broken class: One which 2 people can be running the exact same spec / rotations but 1 is 2-3k GS lower, but dominate the higher GS simply due to class ability. The lower GS GWF can still chain prone the other GWF and drop 50-75% their health in an instant and lol-sprint during the formers unstoppable. It all simply boils down to who hit their chain prone(s) first. I can promise you that as a 15.5k CW that someone running my exact same spec / spell load-out but having 12-13k GS will **** near NEVER EVER beat me. Blind squirrels may find nuts, but most of them just die.
BUT...
If you change the CW or the mechanics around the class then you really need to look at the whole game. The problem is that your entire end-game and all the high-end dungeons make a good CW mandatory if a group wants to experience that content without becoming frustrated. The CW is the only class providing enough control and aoe damage to deal with the endless spam of adds that most boss fights consist of.
The CW and it's synergies with the dungeon mechanics have been the biggest flaw of the game since it's release and unfortunately the designers have dug their own pit here. Because since launch the class has been increasingly buffed and there has been almost no change in dungeon design, Castle Never and Spell Plague are probably the worst examples here, but also the new dungeons make a CW mandatory.
If you change the core mechanics it will create ripples throughout the whole game. Significant changes to the CW will only become possible if the whole end-game content and the other classes receive a complete balance overhaul. By ignoring the problem for so long it has become far bigger than it should ever have been and any balance snapshot has the potential to ruin the whole experience for the players.