No, then you'd just end up in the same situation we have now for GFs and frozen heart. There'd be one dungeon that people take single-target deeps for, and everything else would stay CW+GWF stacked.
A bigger mix of mob types in each and every dungeon would be nice (not least for variety):
That is the real solution indeed.
But I don't think that was Ironwolf's point. He was just illustrating that if the shoes were reversed and all the dungeons were just single target mobs, it would relegate the CW to the same uselessness as the Single Target damagers are in Mass Mob dungeons... and he's dead on.
All the classes are tools, a screwdriver is useless on a nail, and a hammer is the wrong tool to sand an edge smooth. In order for any tool to get used, the job it does... needs to be there. Nothing they do to "adjust" the CW will have any effect whatsoever. Because its designed for the one job they stacked their dungeons with, while all the other classes are still non functional in.
No matter what you do that other tool isn't going to be used because its the wrong tool for the job, and you could just as well not have one. Breaking one tool to make another one more useful... thinking somehow the other tool mysteriously going to do a job it's ill equipped for ..... is useless and only shooting yourself in the foot, making the situation even worse, not better.
And the tool you just broke is STILL the one that will get used and exclude all the other tools.
Yes, you really just can't make this situation better by nerfing something... you can only make it worse in a way that excludes the other classes even further.
CW's have this game by the balls, because of the way the Devs designed the dungeons. Thats not going to change, unless the dungeons do.
CW's have this game by the balls, because of the way the Devs designed the dungeons. Thats not going to change, unless the dungeons do.
Oh yeah...sure...
Even if the dungeons weren't so overcrowded with trash mobs the CWs would still dominate because apparently (while they are considered to be controlling AoE damaging class) they can do as much damage to a single target as some single target "pet" class.
Getting really tired of all DnD games being purely "mage" oriented in the end game.
mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
edited May 2014
Another issue that makes certain feats 'over the top' is: Certain feats can keep themselves procced back-to-back (Example: Eye of the Storm. Once you get it going, it is staying, for quite a bit at least). Internal cooldowns might help out there.
Examples:
EotS, 4 Second duration - gains internal cooldown of 5 Seconds, not affected by any Recharge Reduction. End Result: You no longer can dismiss Azure Enchantments for a Class feature that takes care of the whole 'Crit Chance' issue.
Destructive Wizardry, 6 Second duration, 7 Seconds internal cooldown
Basically, everything that is a guaranteed result, or is triggered by the thing it is buffing, gets an internal cooldown that ensures it to go down, especially in the latter case (see EotS, which helps trigger itself more often, and in the Add-tastic game we have, you are pretty much guaranteed to crit SOMETHING).
Oh, and I would also redo Regeneration and Lifesteal. The former linked into Constitution instead of raw HP, the latter getting individual scaling for each skill. Target limit 1? LS applies full. Target limit 5? LS applies at 20% of its Charsheet stated strength. Target limit 15 or even unlimited: No LS for you, Bro/Sis.
I may be being stupid, but how does EotS trigger itself? It's not actually linked to crits, it's a separate, independent chance (as far as I know).
The problem (again, as far as I'm aware) is more with the fact that the chance for it to proc is calculated per target, and also from DoT ticks, meaning that it's up...a lot.
Firstly, I'd like to look at the last sentence there for discussion. What is our role? We're called Control Wizards, so in my opinion this is crowd control, not damage dealers. The idea that raw damage is a form of control is a very blunt definition to me! Control could also include party based buffs, such as Prestidigitation.
It would be very easy for everyone to think we need a buff, but as the Dev said, there's a lot of dials and we provide too much damage. I therefore would expect a nerf before a buff, and I suspect any changes will come in small stages so they can evaluate the impact and balance.
Presuming all bugs get fixed (a long shot, but hey!) I'd like to ask readers three questions: 1) Regarding Feats: which ones are overpowered? Which would you never choose?
2) How would you make the paragon paths more role defining?
3) How would you make the class more interesting (and less cookie cutter perhaps) to play?
Please don't even ask me to EVER PVP - so i can get knocked to the ground...then knocked to the ground again...and again..and die....OVER AND OVER AGAIN. No ty - So this is all about PVE
Don't be stupid - if CW's just offer control and less damage there is no reason EVER to bring them into instances and most CW's don't PVP...yea u see them..but are they Pvp'ers? Not really only a few.
Why because we can't get hit like a GWF and put out the DPS like a GWF - who is able to be on the mobs all the time because of the class.
So what are we gonna control...singularity? Oh yea I want a CW because they have Sings...Seriously?
Gwf and a Good CW can put out almost equal damage ...a better Gwf ..more then Cw and visa versa...its a contest
There is not another class to bring to the table for DPS and ok debuffs -...TR? No...GF? No...DC...Yes debuffs and heals...Ranger? Possibly they can be quite good if they aren't pulliing Agro all the time.
This is all PVE related - I instance all the time - all the time..did i say that? The idea here should be to make Rogues better in pve..but that will make them even better in pvp..which means...we stuck there... GF can use more damage in Pve for sure...as for Pvp w/e - Rangers - could use less agro
That would bring others classes up just enough to compete but not OP...there really aren't OP players - those classes you thing are OP are really just good players - that understand their toon - I can tell you everything I do to do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> loads of dps and 9/10 people won't be able to beat me in DPS - Y ..because im in tune with my CW - I know the instances ..well some of them alot better then you - so my experience and knowledge and research - helps me put out alot more dps.
So remove CW DPS - you just broke another class - GF - tanks that can't tank - Rogues - can't pve ..they suck - Rangers - pull too much agro..and hard to find a good one - DC...they ok - honestly I think there are alot of lazy ones Lol - GWF can be an animal ..but hey we need something to help the group tank..GF can't do it
Then also lets not forget...stats - how you allocated your stats is very important in game..so there are alot of variables when considering someones dps...Stats/gear/enchants...knowledge of class..casting sequence/what spells do/when to use them...Knowledge of instance..Specs - boons, feats, and talents..alots of room for error..and those that can figure it out...congratz
So rather then cry about CW has alot more dps then me....realize that crying has broken alot more games then it has fixed over the years, when developers give in to the noise...and then realize the people crying..wern't the people that played alot and afterwards..still didn't play alot...and then they lose more customer base because they just broke a class.
Lots to think about
OH btw...have you notice a trend with PVP groups...need TR...need TR - people trying to get full groups of TR for pvp? well I will tell you this - Break CW - you will get need GWF ...Need GWF...4 GWF and possibly 1 DC..For instances
....right. So 4 or 5 CW parties are just fine, and should never be nerfed because ZOMG 4 or 5 GWF parties will become the meta!
...disregarding the fact that GWFs are getting reworked pretty extensively in mod3 (no more deep gash and SotS craziness).
People will always try and optimise, and right now that means "as many CWs as possible". Hell, it's been that way since forever, to be honest. This is not a good thing, and arguing that you can do astounding damage because you "know all the instances and are amazing" is really beside the point.
I can do astounding damage while drunk and half asleep, playing with my face, because I brought a CW. It's really that simple.
Also, nobody said "remove" CW damage, they said "reduce". I don't think this would kill the class at all. Right now we can gather a ton of monsters and keep them locked down more or less constantly so the rest of the party can kill them...or we can just skip the whole "rest of the party" bit and kill them ourselves. I think losing this latter capability would be an improvement to the party dynamic, in all honesty.
Another issue that makes certain feats 'over the top' is: Certain feats can keep themselves procced back-to-back (Example: Eye of the Storm. Once you get it going, it is staying, for quite a bit at least). Internal cooldowns might help out there.
Examples:
EotS, 4 Second duration - gains internal cooldown of 5 Seconds, not affected by any Recharge Reduction. End Result: You no longer can dismiss Azure Enchantments for a Class feature that takes care of the whole 'Crit Chance' issue.
Destructive Wizardry, 6 Second duration, 7 Seconds internal cooldown
Basically, everything that is a guaranteed result, or is triggered by the thing it is buffing, gets an internal cooldown that ensures it to go down, especially in the latter case (see EotS, which helps trigger itself more often, and in the Add-tastic game we have, you are pretty much guaranteed to crit SOMETHING).
Oh, and I would also redo Regeneration and Lifesteal. The former linked into Constitution instead of raw HP, the latter getting individual scaling for each skill. Target limit 1? LS applies full. Target limit 5? LS applies at 20% of its Charsheet stated strength. Target limit 15 or even unlimited: No LS for you, Bro/Sis.
Another issue that makes certain feats 'over the top' is: Certain feats can keep themselves procced back-to-back (Example: Eye of the Storm. Once you get it going, it is staying, for quite a bit at least). Internal cooldowns might help out there.
Examples:
EotS, 4 Second duration - gains internal cooldown of 5 Seconds, not affected by any Recharge Reduction. End Result: You no longer can dismiss Azure Enchantments for a Class feature that takes care of the whole 'Crit Chance' issue.
Destructive Wizardry, 6 Second duration, 7 Seconds internal cooldown
Basically, everything that is a guaranteed result, or is triggered by the thing it is buffing, gets an internal cooldown that ensures it to go down, especially in the latter case (see EotS, which helps trigger itself more often, and in the Add-tastic game we have, you are pretty much guaranteed to crit SOMETHING).
Oh, and I would also redo Regeneration and Lifesteal. The former linked into Constitution instead of raw HP, the latter getting individual scaling for each skill. Target limit 1? LS applies full. Target limit 5? LS applies at 20% of its Charsheet stated strength. Target limit 15 or even unlimited: No LS for you, Bro/Sis.
Just these two post alone...and your not alone...are people that play other toons that are crying...crying - because they got out dps...
Look at it from another angle..what can be done to make my character better...what dev changes...also...look at your character ...stats and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ..do i have that inline - am i spec'd right? How is my gear? Do I know my spec well enough? Do I use the best tools/at wills/ encounters/mastery for my present instance? - How well do I know the instance? Am I positioning myself correctly when Im ganking mobs - Am I taking advantage of grouped mobs are am i on the single mob - while Cw and others are doing multiple dmage to mobs ...racking up the dps? Am i slow? How active am I when I instance? Am I the last one to get on the mobs....Inactivity...bad bad...u do alot less dps when the mobs are already half dead - Do I take advantage of situations..example saving a encounter for when a CW throws up sing?
So much <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> - obviously if your a rogue or a gwf your jacked - but maybe you will be the one that figures out the class and improves it for everyone else.
So stop pointing out your neighbor saying..thats not fair..he is a surgeon and drives a ferrari ..lets nerf him...because I have a Bachelors and deserve to have a ferrari too. No no...put time and effort into your character..research...and look to improve your class with developers..rather then bring everyone down to your Toyota Camry.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I may be being stupid, but how does EotS trigger itself? It's not actually linked to crits, it's a separate, independent chance (as far as I know).
The problem (again, as far as I'm aware) is more with the fact that the chance for it to proc is calculated per target, and also from DoT ticks, meaning that it's up...a lot.
COI and ST also have a chance to proc it per hit per target, and not per target per cast like it probably should be.
But the proc rate of EotS is independent of your crit rating.
....right. So 4 or 5 CW parties are just fine, and should never be nerfed because ZOMG 4 or 5 GWF parties will become the meta!
...disregarding the fact that GWFs are getting reworked pretty extensively in mod3 (no more deep gash and SotS craziness).
People will always try and optimise, and right now that means "as many CWs as possible". Hell, it's been that way since forever, to be honest. This is not a good thing, and arguing that you can do astounding damage because you "know all the instances and are amazing" is really beside the point.
I can do astounding damage while drunk and half asleep, playing with my face, because I brought a CW. It's really that simple.
Also, nobody said "remove" CW damage, they said "reduce". I don't think this would kill the class at all. Right now we can gather a ton of monsters and keep them locked down more or less constantly so the rest of the party can kill them...or we can just skip the whole "rest of the party" bit and kill them ourselves. I think losing this latter capability would be an improvement to the party dynamic, in all honesty.
That isnt what I said.
I said...other classes need to be buffed - you obviously missed all that...i repeated it several times.
GF - Rogue...Ranger...read my post...i state they need to be fixed
Along with alot of other stuff you probably ignored because your looking at only one side of the argument.
AND NO , AND NO I don't see stacking of CW's like I use to -
More leaning towards GWF stacking with 1 CW - especially VT 2/2 - There are some players that are out of touch that will put 3 CW in group with 2 GWF and think they can do VT 2/2 But more fail then complete..because it still takes competent players...not just roll a GWF or a CW and you will win..because you Won't ....if you ever instance with me and your not a RUNNER..
AKA RUNNER..someone that pulls mobs and dps them before the group moves - therefore increasing their dps but lowering parties.
Also remember VT 2/2 is not a DPS race till the end - ..but it is heavy DPS getting to Val
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Even if the dungeons weren't so overcrowded with trash mobs the CWs would still dominate because apparently (while they are considered to be controlling AoE damaging class) they can do as much damage to a single target as some single target "pet" class.
Getting really tired of all DnD games being purely "mage" oriented in the end game.
NO... they CWS CAN'T...
Where the hell did you get that Idea? Haven't you ever asked yourself HOW this stuff works?
HOW in the hell can a CW be Damaging 10 or more targets all the while... and in the end of Paingiver... end up ONLY doing about a half to a quarter more damage than another class who's ONLY damaging a single target over and over.
He would be doing 10 times more damage... not just 25% more.
If the mage is ACTUALLY outdamaging people on Single Targets...the damage spread in Paingiver would be ENORMOUS, like 10 times as much.
Did you EVER think it through??? Didn't you ever ask yourself why the mages is getting outrageously outdamaged in PvP where everything is just a Single Target.
Do you realize that if the mage is casting a single spell doing 50 damage to each target of 10...
and a Rogue is only doing 50 damage on ONE target.
PAINGIVER spread would look like THIS!!!
Paingiver
Mage: 500 damage
Rogue: 50 damage.
Instead it looks like THIS>..
Paingiver
Mage: 500 damage
Rogue: 250 damage
If that rogue is only damaging ONE target to the mages TEN targets... how the hell is the damage EVEN THAT CLOSE if they're doing equal damage?? They're NOT..... the Rogue is actually doing a hell of a lot more damage per target.
Did you ever think that through or just wild guess it? Its NOT mathematically possible for the ending spread to look that way if the Mage is ACTUALLY outdamageing him on single targets... It MEANS the other classes are WAY outdamaging the mage on single targets and have always done so....
Well, no: there's also the fact that CWs have single target and multi-target encounters, and can swap according to need, whereas most TR stuff is single target only. So they can obviously do crazy AoE damage, but can also do pretty good single target damage...they just can't do both at the same time.
So if you're up against a boss, using steal time/singularity/shard is a bit stupid because those all excel at AoE damage, but ice knife, RoE and so on will do the job nicely. Sure a TR would do the job better, but not "so much better that taking a CW is actively detrimental".
Having said that, VT is one of the few dungeons where stacked CWs is definitely not a mindless "i win" strategy (you can do it with 5 CWs, certainly, but you do actually have to put some effort in), so that's nice, but it's an exception rather than the norm.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Well, no: there's also the fact that CWs have single target and multi-target encounters, and can swap according to need, whereas most TR stuff is single target only. So they can obviously do crazy AoE damage, but can also do pretty good single target damage...they just can't do both at the same time.
So if you're up against a boss, using steal time/singularity/shard is a bit stupid because those all excel at AoE damage, but ice knife, RoE and so on will do the job nicely. Sure a TR would do the job better, but not "so much better that taking a CW is actively detrimental".
Having said that, VT is one of the few dungeons where stacked CWs is definitely not a mindless "i win" strategy (you can do it with 5 CWs, certainly, but you do actually have to put some effort in), so that's nice, but it's an exception rather than the norm.
It doesn't matter my friend,
The other single target classes are doing SO MUCH single target damage over the CWs... they are ACTUALLY able to get HALF the Paingiver numbers DESPITE the mage damaging 10 targets to their ONE target.
The other classes are actually outdamaging the CW on single targets by so much they are somehow able to get half the damage.
If we were doing the same single target damage the other classes were doing as we're hitting 10 targets...
THIS is what Paingiver would ACTUALLY look like if we were doing the same damage they were...
PAINGIVER:
CW 10,000,000
All Other Classes: 1,000,000
The fact they are coming up with 5,000,000-7.500,000 damage to our 10,000,000 damage means they are doing a crapton more single target damage per target EVEN though we are damaging a good 10 targets at a time.
The other classes HAVE to be doing a crapton as they're ONLY damaging a single mob to our 10 mobs.
Yeah they really are doing that much compared to us per target. There was nothing wrong with CWs in the first place. ALL that's happening is that the CWs numbers get larger and larger the more and more mobs you throw at the party.
Solution is... you want his damage to go down... Don't throw so many mobs at the party, his damage AND effectiveness decrease the fewer and fewer mobs there are. . Because this is where a CW thrives. BUT THATS all there is in these dungeons.
There's another variable too, the number of hitpoints a creature has.
So, to take everyone's example the 10 creature mob, each creature having 100hp.
The cw hits all for 50hp per rotation, so kills the entire mob in 2 rotations.
The tr one shots one creature per rotation with a 250 point hit. Doing way more damage per creature than the cw.
However, because the cws damage is lower, but more global, little of his damage output is 'wasted', he provides enough damage to kill the creature, it dies, and the rest of the spell's damage skips to the next target in its range. The tr in the example usually 'overkills' his target to a greater or lesser degree, and the damage over and above the creature's hp threshold is wasted, as it doesn't skip on to the next.
Cws, not only lethal, but efficiently lethal. No mess, no fuss, just dead.
Silver: an awful lot of that is boss damage. That's usually where TRs shine: compare paingiver before and after fulminorax or something, and you usually see the TR's total jump a lot.
And again, CWs don't usually take a bar of single target encounters (because it's far more useful to be doing lots of AoE control) so you don't really have a single-target vs single-target comparison anyway.
Then factor in debuffs and the like, which a HV-wearing GPF-enchanted CW can stick on EVERYTHING, for the whole team to benefit.
Then factor in how much of a team player the CW is (do they sing stuff onto the GWFs and keep COI up on the boss, or do they blast everything with OF and troll the GWFs with ice storm). GWFs have a lot of AoE damage stuff, but because they're melee they need stuff to be bunched up, so a team-focused CW will aid this.
If that rogue is only damaging ONE target to the mages TEN targets... how the hell is the damage EVEN THAT CLOSE if they're doing equal damage?? They're NOT..... the Rogue is actually doing a hell of a lot more damage per target.
You are wrong here. The TR in this picture is doing more considerably well because he is trying to beat you at your own game. A good PvE Rogue would use Blitz (AoE as strong as your Shard crits) Wicked Reminder/Dazing Strikes (cone range) at your Singularity...and Whirlwind of Blades (a daily that hits even harder than your AoE dailies). That and our bleeds. Bleeds is a massive source of sustained damage for TR.
You only gain the advantage in dps because TR has TARGET CAPS. Not all of our attacks can pierce or damage everything in range, whilst your magic just destroys everything it touches. Fairly so. Most GWF powers (if their feat trees weren't so disorganized) are also reduced in damage based on a target cap.
If CW damage must be nerfed, the class needs to be heavily buffed in other areas. You are too strong in crowds and too weak in single combat. Therein lies balance at its absolute limits. As good as that fits your designated role, it's awfully problematic.
Silver: an awful lot of that is boss damage. That's usually where TRs shine: compare paingiver before and after fulminorax or something, and you usually see the TR's total jump a lot..
I DO...
That's what I'm telling you, that Rogue and OTHER damagers like the GWF are actually able to keep pace with mages by at LEAST 50% sometimes upwards of 75% despite only damaging ONE target to the mages TEN IN those mass mob situations... So even in MASS mob situations they're still outdamaging the mage. The only real difference is that the mage is damaging 10 targets at once.
We SHOULD be doing 10 times their damage IF we were ACTUALLY doing the same damage or more... we're not, we're doing a LOT less damage per target than they are. CWs aren't broken and never were, nor were they ever overpowered. They are just able to thrive in a Mass Mob situation as to where the other classes cannot.
BUT other DDs can ONLY damage ONE target at a time (exception being GWFs). Mages damage 10-15... so the fact other DDs can even come remotely close to the damage a mage dishes out in these dungeons is astonishing, and tells me they they are seriously outdamaging the mage at every turn.
It was all a lie, the CWs never needed any "adjustments". What needs the "adjustments" are the dungeons that throw 10 mobs at you at a time, which excludes the abillities of ALL those single target damagers because mass mobs are all you find with only few exceptions.
Those single target damagers will NEVER shine in those shoes no matter how much you "adjust" the mage. They're still going to be just as worthless in a mass mob situation because they were never designed for it.
However, because the cws damage is lower, but more global, little of his damage output is 'wasted', he provides enough damage to kill the creature, it dies, and the rest of the spell's damage skips to the next target in its range. The tr in the example usually 'overkills' his target to a greater or lesser degree, and the damage over and above the creature's hp threshold is wasted, as it doesn't skip on to the next.
Just to be overly annoying, I'd provide a correction to your case too. If I overkill a trash mob for 30k crit Lashing Blade, for example, even if its hp is a scrubish 5k. 30K would register in my Paingiver charts. Not 5K. 25K is wasted in the sense that it was overkill. But 25K is not wasted in the eyes of Paingiver.
This would explain the puzzle of 10mill:7.5mill dps of CW:TR, when others think it should of been 10mill:1mill by comparison.
If CW damage must be nerfed, the class needs to be heavily buffed in other areas. You are too strong in crowds and too weak in single combat. Therein lies balance at its absolute limits. As good as that fits your designated role, it's awfully problematic.
Why?
I see no reason for it, Its function and design ARE supposed to be that way.
You would have to NERF the hell out of every other classes SINGLE target damage if you go that direction, because their damage is so outragious comparatively there's no way in hell a CW can compete... reason being...
The CW was designed for mass mobs, no other class was. The Same reason OUR target caps are set to 10 or 15 respectively is the same reason YOU as a rogue got so much single target damage comparatively, that was the balance point.
You were designed as a Single Target damage class, the Mage was designed as an AoE damage class.
Neither ONE of them are "broken" they're working as intended.
You're basically saying "our single target damage is terrible" because if you divide the total damage we deal by the number of targets we deal it to, it's less than the damage per target of a TR.
You're comparing damage per target for both, sure, but you're restricting your assessment of the CW to MASS AOE OF EVERYTHING, which (as I keep saying) is not ALL that CWs can do. Mass AoE spells SHOULD do less damage per target because otherwise it would be ridiculous.
If, for some reason, a CW decided to take a bar of just single target encounters, would they get beaten by a TR in paingiver? Of course. Would they be beaten by a factor of TEN? (because they're no longer doing damage to 10 targets at once)
No, not even close.
That's what I'm saying. Our AoE damage (per target) is lower than their single target damage because of course it is. If it was comparable per target we would be so stupidly OP it wouldn't even be funny any more.
This doesn't tell you anything about our single target damage, though: because CWs basically never bother to take single target encounters (because why would they?).
I see no reason for it, Its function and design ARE supposed to be that way.
You would have to NERF the hell out of every other classes SINGLE target damage if you go that direction, because their damage is so outragious comparatively there's no way in hell a CW can compete... reason being...
The CW was designed for mass mobs, no other class was. The Same reason OUR target caps are set to 10 or 15 respectively is the same reason YOU as a rogue got so much single target damage comparatively, that was the balance point.
You were designed as a Single Target damage class, the Mage was designed as an AoE damage class.
Neither ONE of them are "broken" they're working as intended.
You are reading things that are not there. I'm not even on board with a CW nerf. I advocate making you stronger in areas you are deprived of. Forcing a nerf down your gullet will make you cry harder in all things PvP--which is ofc a domino effect to my class. In breaking your class you would have more reason to break mine.
So if you could just refrain from quoting and arguing with 'misread' intentions, we could have a more civilized conversation here.
Wizards don't know rogues just the way most rogues don't know wizards. I'm a PvE TR and I never get outdamaged by a mage, no matter how better geared, by a factor of ten. The best ones would do it by a factor of 2 or 3. Never higher.
You are all calculating the single target damage difference wrong. As wizards, your damage relies in the Leeroy number of mobs. As rogues, I'm not exactly on the opposite. A rogue's primary source of damage is the Bleed Effect. The higher the HP of our target, the more we can stack Bleed, and the higher it will tick per second.
If let us say you are killing 10 trash mobs at 500 damage per second, the TR is stacking Bleeds for 2000 damage per tick every second, and keeps reapplying that effect until the target is dead. If you can kill 10 soft mobs in a few seconds, the TR takes much longer to kill a bigger target -- more time equals more Bleed ticks -- all the while your trash toys are already dead and you have to compete with our (arguably equal) single target DPS + our BLEEDS, which you don't have much of either.
Pretty sure you could lower CW aoe damage without having any real affect on PvP. CWs are mostly comedy cloth punchbags in PvP anyway, and the PvP encounter loadout is far less concerned with doing tons of tick damage to hundreds of dudes.
Did I ever say TRs outdamage mages by a factor of ten? No.
Did I ever say CWs outdamage TRs by a factor of ten? No.
I am saying that CW do MORE damage (like..double or so) in total because your usual CW loadout is MASSES OF AOE STUFF, and dungeons are usually loaded with MASSES OF AOE-ABLE TRASH.
And that's fine. I'm also agreeing that mages do less damage PER TARGET when using masses of aoe stuff because that's exactly how AoE stuff should work. Otherwise it would be so hilariously imbalanced there'd be no point ever taking anything other than CWs (which is close enough to how things are now anyway).
But doing less damage per target when using AoE stuff does not mean that CWs have 'crappy single target damage'. It just means that AoEs are a really stupid thing to use on single targets.
What silver is implying is that if CWs couldn't damage ALL THE THINGS EVERYWHERE we'd be utterly kerbstomped in paingiver because we have terrible single target damage, whereas I'm trying to point out that this is a totally unfair comparison. If a dungeon consisted of fights with just one or two very high health enemies, a CW bringing steal time and singularity and shard and so on....would do very low damage, and would also be an idiot. Those are powers that are very, very good at doing lowish damage to huge numbers of enemies. Using them against single targets would be idiotic, because their actual damage PER TARGET is low.
And this is fine. CWs DO NOT NEED TO USE THOSE AND ONLY THOSE POWERS, though. We have a variety of single target spells which we could use instead, and if we were to do a direct comparison of our single target damage (using single target spells) with that of a TR, yes, the CW would be lower (because single target damage is the speciality of a TR), but not by anything like a factor of 10.
We only use masses of AoE stuff because we CAN, and because this is by far the most appropriate stuff to bring for virtually every dungeon in the game.
Besides, one thing the devs HAVE to consider is: CW does too much dmg, 25% of the active DD runners are CW, any nerfs that prevent 1/5 of the CW's doing their job as normal would lower the number of DD's being run, making the dungeons desolate.
There is still a Religion Skill Node in Karrundax at the Pyraphenia encounter that cannot be reached, the community has changed a lot in this game to suit, changing EVERYTHING will just result in a bored community.
TR's need more "specialization" to suit the current PvE offering so everyone gets a crack of the whip, and no one is left in the queue holding onto the precious memory of being active amongst the community.
Stacking CW's just makes new players undergo a social personality check as soon as they pick their toon, picking TR or HR is a normal choice, that could lead to failure in the games progression unless the TR's/HR's illustrate "high quality character or skill"
Max 2 of any class makes instances balanced, some handwavium to the effect: Arcane fabric prevents more than 2 CW's from drawing power in the same space at the same time, and there is no longer an issue. Or oversized GWF swords and the heads that wield them cannot fit into the corridors housing monsters as there is simply not enough space.
Easiest option.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
You are reading things that are not there. I'm not even on board with a CW nerf. I advocate making you stronger in areas you are deprived of. Forcing a nerf down your gullet will make you cry harder in all things PvP--which is ofc a domino effect to my class. In breaking your class you would have more reason to break mine.
So if you could just refrain from quoting and arguing with 'misread' intentions, we could have a more civilized conversation here.
Well we are even there,
I have been a vocal advocate against any kind of Rogue nerfs as well. I can see no reason to assume the Rogue class is "unbalanced". Its doing exactly what its intended to do.
Its a high sustained single target damager that does what its intended to do... massacre high powered single targets.
I am also an advocate of adding a lot more of these in dungeons as thats the real problem is other classes not being able to exercise their abillities they were designed for. Their roles are notoriously absent in these dungeons which is what is causing these kinds of problems.
Nerfs will only unbalance everything even further, and never achieve their actual goals. Because these classes were designed for specific roles. Not some communist everyone is the same type cookie cutter type of scenario. They are not, we are not, we both have our strengths and weaknesses, and they are there for a purpose.
Just to be overly annoying, I'd provide a correction to your case too. If I overkill a trash mob for 30k crit Lashing Blade, for example, even if its hp is a scrubish 5k. 30K would register in my Paingiver charts. Not 5K. 25K is wasted in the sense that it was overkill. But 25K is not wasted in the eyes of Paingiver.
This would explain the puzzle of 10mill:7.5mill dps of CW:TR, when others think it should of been 10mill:1mill by comparison.
I wasn't particularly thinking about paingiver, it is misleading as you've said, but in terms of dungeon clearing; and that cws do it better on all fronts, save the bosses.
No idea what my toon is now.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Did I ever say TRs outdamage mages by a factor of ten? No.
Did I ever say CWs outdamage TRs by a factor of ten? No.
I am saying that CW do MORE damage (like..double or so) in total because your usual CW loadout is MASSES OF AOE STUFF, and dungeons are usually loaded with MASSES OF AOE-ABLE TRASH.
Thats what everyone else was saying,
And why everyone is telling you nothing is broken class wise and needs no adjustments.
BOTH Rogues and CWs are working as intended. The CW is NOT massively outdamaging anyone of the DDs. They're actually doing much less damage per target and always have.
But because the only thing in the dungeons is mass mobs thrown at you repeatedly, Of course CWs damage looks disgusting, because their overall damage gets escalated the more and more mobs you throw at them and the entire class was designed for it.
Even though the other classes are actually outdamaging the CW on a large amount on a per target basis by a very large margin on the single targets they're on.... IN those mass mob situations.
Ergo... "adjusting" anything won't do a thing to fix anything, it will just result in more and more stacked CW parties, as the entire class was designed around dealing with those when no other class was.
In other words theirs was the only role really included in these dungeons. The class isn't broken and doesn't need any adjustments, its doing its job just exactly as it was intended to do. Its actually the dungeons that are and have always been "broken" because they never included the other classes abillities in the actual dungeon design for mobs.
No amount of nerfing or buffing will fix this or change anything. The CW is fine and always has been and doesn't need any adjustments.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited May 2014
Silverquick, I'm waiting for you to keel over in exasperation.
You're 100% on the money here.
And for the people talking about single target damage...the CW is at the bottom of the list. Which is partly why they're so weak in PvP right now, too. A CW loaded out with their best ST skills vs a TR or a GWF will get crushed in total damage AND DPS (two totally different things, btw).
If we saw more dungeons that focused on tackling, big, bad dangerous foes, instead of bunches of little ones, it'd be a totally different game.
And to that point, another thing that makes CW's OP is Lifesteal...but not by itself. Since we're hitting so many targets for such high damage, our lifesteal out put is multiplied, making us extremely resilient in dungeons. If I'm hitting 5 mobs for 40k damage with 10% lifesteal, that's 20k health per spell, almost a full heal. Which means I can be a bit more reckless when I jump into a pile of mobs. But when I'm just hitting a single mob (like in MC) that can hit me for 10-20k health, but only healing a few k per spell, it's a totally different game. Instead of being indifferent to my agro, I'll get creamed if if someone's not tanking for me (otherwise, I spend the entire fight dodge/spell/dodge/spell/dodge since I now lack the ability to face-tank as I cast).
So anyway, to Silverquick's point. It's a CW's game right now because the dungeons are set to play to their strengths.
I love the way you totally missed the point. Again. And quoted the only part of my post that COULD be quoted without having to address that you totally missed the point.
Icy terrain is only good for debuffs? Ridiculous. Sing, put all mobs in one spot. Steal time, locks all mobs in place. Icy terrain, begin freezing. Conduit of ice, apply damage and chill to all mobs. Wait for freezing and summon shard of the endless doom, blow mobs up as they begin to move...icy terrain and steal time are near cooled off by this time and sing nearly charged. If that's not control I don't know what is.
Comments
That is the real solution indeed.
But I don't think that was Ironwolf's point. He was just illustrating that if the shoes were reversed and all the dungeons were just single target mobs, it would relegate the CW to the same uselessness as the Single Target damagers are in Mass Mob dungeons... and he's dead on.
All the classes are tools, a screwdriver is useless on a nail, and a hammer is the wrong tool to sand an edge smooth. In order for any tool to get used, the job it does... needs to be there. Nothing they do to "adjust" the CW will have any effect whatsoever. Because its designed for the one job they stacked their dungeons with, while all the other classes are still non functional in.
No matter what you do that other tool isn't going to be used because its the wrong tool for the job, and you could just as well not have one. Breaking one tool to make another one more useful... thinking somehow the other tool mysteriously going to do a job it's ill equipped for ..... is useless and only shooting yourself in the foot, making the situation even worse, not better.
And the tool you just broke is STILL the one that will get used and exclude all the other tools.
Yes, you really just can't make this situation better by nerfing something... you can only make it worse in a way that excludes the other classes even further.
CW's have this game by the balls, because of the way the Devs designed the dungeons. Thats not going to change, unless the dungeons do.
Oh yeah...sure...
Even if the dungeons weren't so overcrowded with trash mobs the CWs would still dominate because apparently (while they are considered to be controlling AoE damaging class) they can do as much damage to a single target as some single target "pet" class.
Getting really tired of all DnD games being purely "mage" oriented in the end game.
WTB Class Reroll please
Examples:
EotS, 4 Second duration - gains internal cooldown of 5 Seconds, not affected by any Recharge Reduction. End Result: You no longer can dismiss Azure Enchantments for a Class feature that takes care of the whole 'Crit Chance' issue.
Destructive Wizardry, 6 Second duration, 7 Seconds internal cooldown
Basically, everything that is a guaranteed result, or is triggered by the thing it is buffing, gets an internal cooldown that ensures it to go down, especially in the latter case (see EotS, which helps trigger itself more often, and in the Add-tastic game we have, you are pretty much guaranteed to crit SOMETHING).
Oh, and I would also redo Regeneration and Lifesteal. The former linked into Constitution instead of raw HP, the latter getting individual scaling for each skill. Target limit 1? LS applies full. Target limit 5? LS applies at 20% of its Charsheet stated strength. Target limit 15 or even unlimited: No LS for you, Bro/Sis.
The problem (again, as far as I'm aware) is more with the fact that the chance for it to proc is calculated per target, and also from DoT ticks, meaning that it's up...a lot.
Please don't even ask me to EVER PVP - so i can get knocked to the ground...then knocked to the ground again...and again..and die....OVER AND OVER AGAIN. No ty - So this is all about PVE
Don't be stupid - if CW's just offer control and less damage there is no reason EVER to bring them into instances and most CW's don't PVP...yea u see them..but are they Pvp'ers? Not really only a few.
Why because we can't get hit like a GWF and put out the DPS like a GWF - who is able to be on the mobs all the time because of the class.
So what are we gonna control...singularity? Oh yea I want a CW because they have Sings...Seriously?
Gwf and a Good CW can put out almost equal damage ...a better Gwf ..more then Cw and visa versa...its a contest
There is not another class to bring to the table for DPS and ok debuffs -...TR? No...GF? No...DC...Yes debuffs and heals...Ranger? Possibly they can be quite good if they aren't pulliing Agro all the time.
This is all PVE related - I instance all the time - all the time..did i say that? The idea here should be to make Rogues better in pve..but that will make them even better in pvp..which means...we stuck there... GF can use more damage in Pve for sure...as for Pvp w/e - Rangers - could use less agro
That would bring others classes up just enough to compete but not OP...there really aren't OP players - those classes you thing are OP are really just good players - that understand their toon - I can tell you everything I do to do <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> loads of dps and 9/10 people won't be able to beat me in DPS - Y ..because im in tune with my CW - I know the instances ..well some of them alot better then you - so my experience and knowledge and research - helps me put out alot more dps.
So remove CW DPS - you just broke another class - GF - tanks that can't tank - Rogues - can't pve ..they suck - Rangers - pull too much agro..and hard to find a good one - DC...they ok - honestly I think there are alot of lazy ones Lol - GWF can be an animal ..but hey we need something to help the group tank..GF can't do it
Then also lets not forget...stats - how you allocated your stats is very important in game..so there are alot of variables when considering someones dps...Stats/gear/enchants...knowledge of class..casting sequence/what spells do/when to use them...Knowledge of instance..Specs - boons, feats, and talents..alots of room for error..and those that can figure it out...congratz
So rather then cry about CW has alot more dps then me....realize that crying has broken alot more games then it has fixed over the years, when developers give in to the noise...and then realize the people crying..wern't the people that played alot and afterwards..still didn't play alot...and then they lose more customer base because they just broke a class.
Lots to think about
OH btw...have you notice a trend with PVP groups...need TR...need TR - people trying to get full groups of TR for pvp? well I will tell you this - Break CW - you will get need GWF ...Need GWF...4 GWF and possibly 1 DC..For instances
...disregarding the fact that GWFs are getting reworked pretty extensively in mod3 (no more deep gash and SotS craziness).
People will always try and optimise, and right now that means "as many CWs as possible". Hell, it's been that way since forever, to be honest. This is not a good thing, and arguing that you can do astounding damage because you "know all the instances and are amazing" is really beside the point.
I can do astounding damage while drunk and half asleep, playing with my face, because I brought a CW. It's really that simple.
Also, nobody said "remove" CW damage, they said "reduce". I don't think this would kill the class at all. Right now we can gather a ton of monsters and keep them locked down more or less constantly so the rest of the party can kill them...or we can just skip the whole "rest of the party" bit and kill them ourselves. I think losing this latter capability would be an improvement to the party dynamic, in all honesty.
Just these two post alone...and your not alone...are people that play other toons that are crying...crying - because they got out dps...
Look at it from another angle..what can be done to make my character better...what dev changes...also...look at your character ...stats and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ..do i have that inline - am i spec'd right? How is my gear? Do I know my spec well enough? Do I use the best tools/at wills/ encounters/mastery for my present instance? - How well do I know the instance? Am I positioning myself correctly when Im ganking mobs - Am I taking advantage of grouped mobs are am i on the single mob - while Cw and others are doing multiple dmage to mobs ...racking up the dps? Am i slow? How active am I when I instance? Am I the last one to get on the mobs....Inactivity...bad bad...u do alot less dps when the mobs are already half dead - Do I take advantage of situations..example saving a encounter for when a CW throws up sing?
So much <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> - obviously if your a rogue or a gwf your jacked - but maybe you will be the one that figures out the class and improves it for everyone else.
So stop pointing out your neighbor saying..thats not fair..he is a surgeon and drives a ferrari ..lets nerf him...because I have a Bachelors and deserve to have a ferrari too. No no...put time and effort into your character..research...and look to improve your class with developers..rather then bring everyone down to your Toyota Camry.
COI and ST also have a chance to proc it per hit per target, and not per target per cast like it probably should be.
But the proc rate of EotS is independent of your crit rating.
That isnt what I said.
I said...other classes need to be buffed - you obviously missed all that...i repeated it several times.
GF - Rogue...Ranger...read my post...i state they need to be fixed
Along with alot of other stuff you probably ignored because your looking at only one side of the argument.
AND NO , AND NO I don't see stacking of CW's like I use to -
More leaning towards GWF stacking with 1 CW - especially VT 2/2 - There are some players that are out of touch that will put 3 CW in group with 2 GWF and think they can do VT 2/2 But more fail then complete..because it still takes competent players...not just roll a GWF or a CW and you will win..because you Won't ....if you ever instance with me and your not a RUNNER..
AKA RUNNER..someone that pulls mobs and dps them before the group moves - therefore increasing their dps but lowering parties.
Also remember VT 2/2 is not a DPS race till the end - ..but it is heavy DPS getting to Val
NO... they CWS CAN'T...
Where the hell did you get that Idea? Haven't you ever asked yourself HOW this stuff works?
HOW in the hell can a CW be Damaging 10 or more targets all the while... and in the end of Paingiver... end up ONLY doing about a half to a quarter more damage than another class who's ONLY damaging a single target over and over.
He would be doing 10 times more damage... not just 25% more.
If the mage is ACTUALLY outdamaging people on Single Targets...the damage spread in Paingiver would be ENORMOUS, like 10 times as much.
Did you EVER think it through??? Didn't you ever ask yourself why the mages is getting outrageously outdamaged in PvP where everything is just a Single Target.
Do you realize that if the mage is casting a single spell doing 50 damage to each target of 10...
and a Rogue is only doing 50 damage on ONE target.
PAINGIVER spread would look like THIS!!!
Paingiver
Mage: 500 damage
Rogue: 50 damage.
Instead it looks like THIS>..
Paingiver
Mage: 500 damage
Rogue: 250 damage
If that rogue is only damaging ONE target to the mages TEN targets... how the hell is the damage EVEN THAT CLOSE if they're doing equal damage?? They're NOT..... the Rogue is actually doing a hell of a lot more damage per target.
Did you ever think that through or just wild guess it? Its NOT mathematically possible for the ending spread to look that way if the Mage is ACTUALLY outdamageing him on single targets... It MEANS the other classes are WAY outdamaging the mage on single targets and have always done so....
So if you're up against a boss, using steal time/singularity/shard is a bit stupid because those all excel at AoE damage, but ice knife, RoE and so on will do the job nicely. Sure a TR would do the job better, but not "so much better that taking a CW is actively detrimental".
Having said that, VT is one of the few dungeons where stacked CWs is definitely not a mindless "i win" strategy (you can do it with 5 CWs, certainly, but you do actually have to put some effort in), so that's nice, but it's an exception rather than the norm.
It doesn't matter my friend,
The other single target classes are doing SO MUCH single target damage over the CWs... they are ACTUALLY able to get HALF the Paingiver numbers DESPITE the mage damaging 10 targets to their ONE target.
The other classes are actually outdamaging the CW on single targets by so much they are somehow able to get half the damage.
If we were doing the same single target damage the other classes were doing as we're hitting 10 targets...
THIS is what Paingiver would ACTUALLY look like if we were doing the same damage they were...
PAINGIVER:
CW 10,000,000
All Other Classes: 1,000,000
The fact they are coming up with 5,000,000-7.500,000 damage to our 10,000,000 damage means they are doing a crapton more single target damage per target EVEN though we are damaging a good 10 targets at a time.
The other classes HAVE to be doing a crapton as they're ONLY damaging a single mob to our 10 mobs.
Yeah they really are doing that much compared to us per target. There was nothing wrong with CWs in the first place. ALL that's happening is that the CWs numbers get larger and larger the more and more mobs you throw at the party.
Solution is... you want his damage to go down... Don't throw so many mobs at the party, his damage AND effectiveness decrease the fewer and fewer mobs there are. . Because this is where a CW thrives. BUT THATS all there is in these dungeons.
So, to take everyone's example the 10 creature mob, each creature having 100hp.
The cw hits all for 50hp per rotation, so kills the entire mob in 2 rotations.
The tr one shots one creature per rotation with a 250 point hit. Doing way more damage per creature than the cw.
However, because the cws damage is lower, but more global, little of his damage output is 'wasted', he provides enough damage to kill the creature, it dies, and the rest of the spell's damage skips to the next target in its range. The tr in the example usually 'overkills' his target to a greater or lesser degree, and the damage over and above the creature's hp threshold is wasted, as it doesn't skip on to the next.
Cws, not only lethal, but efficiently lethal. No mess, no fuss, just dead.
And again, CWs don't usually take a bar of single target encounters (because it's far more useful to be doing lots of AoE control) so you don't really have a single-target vs single-target comparison anyway.
Then factor in debuffs and the like, which a HV-wearing GPF-enchanted CW can stick on EVERYTHING, for the whole team to benefit.
Then factor in how much of a team player the CW is (do they sing stuff onto the GWFs and keep COI up on the boss, or do they blast everything with OF and troll the GWFs with ice storm). GWFs have a lot of AoE damage stuff, but because they're melee they need stuff to be bunched up, so a team-focused CW will aid this.
It's not just about raw damage comparisons.
You are wrong here. The TR in this picture is doing more considerably well because he is trying to beat you at your own game. A good PvE Rogue would use Blitz (AoE as strong as your Shard crits) Wicked Reminder/Dazing Strikes (cone range) at your Singularity...and Whirlwind of Blades (a daily that hits even harder than your AoE dailies). That and our bleeds. Bleeds is a massive source of sustained damage for TR.
You only gain the advantage in dps because TR has TARGET CAPS. Not all of our attacks can pierce or damage everything in range, whilst your magic just destroys everything it touches. Fairly so. Most GWF powers (if their feat trees weren't so disorganized) are also reduced in damage based on a target cap.
If CW damage must be nerfed, the class needs to be heavily buffed in other areas. You are too strong in crowds and too weak in single combat. Therein lies balance at its absolute limits. As good as that fits your designated role, it's awfully problematic.
I DO...
That's what I'm telling you, that Rogue and OTHER damagers like the GWF are actually able to keep pace with mages by at LEAST 50% sometimes upwards of 75% despite only damaging ONE target to the mages TEN IN those mass mob situations... So even in MASS mob situations they're still outdamaging the mage. The only real difference is that the mage is damaging 10 targets at once.
We SHOULD be doing 10 times their damage IF we were ACTUALLY doing the same damage or more... we're not, we're doing a LOT less damage per target than they are. CWs aren't broken and never were, nor were they ever overpowered. They are just able to thrive in a Mass Mob situation as to where the other classes cannot.
BUT other DDs can ONLY damage ONE target at a time (exception being GWFs). Mages damage 10-15... so the fact other DDs can even come remotely close to the damage a mage dishes out in these dungeons is astonishing, and tells me they they are seriously outdamaging the mage at every turn.
It was all a lie, the CWs never needed any "adjustments". What needs the "adjustments" are the dungeons that throw 10 mobs at you at a time, which excludes the abillities of ALL those single target damagers because mass mobs are all you find with only few exceptions.
Those single target damagers will NEVER shine in those shoes no matter how much you "adjust" the mage. They're still going to be just as worthless in a mass mob situation because they were never designed for it.
Just to be overly annoying, I'd provide a correction to your case too. If I overkill a trash mob for 30k crit Lashing Blade, for example, even if its hp is a scrubish 5k. 30K would register in my Paingiver charts. Not 5K. 25K is wasted in the sense that it was overkill. But 25K is not wasted in the eyes of Paingiver.
This would explain the puzzle of 10mill:7.5mill dps of CW:TR, when others think it should of been 10mill:1mill by comparison.
Why?
I see no reason for it, Its function and design ARE supposed to be that way.
You would have to NERF the hell out of every other classes SINGLE target damage if you go that direction, because their damage is so outragious comparatively there's no way in hell a CW can compete... reason being...
The CW was designed for mass mobs, no other class was. The Same reason OUR target caps are set to 10 or 15 respectively is the same reason YOU as a rogue got so much single target damage comparatively, that was the balance point.
You were designed as a Single Target damage class, the Mage was designed as an AoE damage class.
Neither ONE of them are "broken" they're working as intended.
You're basically saying "our single target damage is terrible" because if you divide the total damage we deal by the number of targets we deal it to, it's less than the damage per target of a TR.
You're comparing damage per target for both, sure, but you're restricting your assessment of the CW to MASS AOE OF EVERYTHING, which (as I keep saying) is not ALL that CWs can do. Mass AoE spells SHOULD do less damage per target because otherwise it would be ridiculous.
If, for some reason, a CW decided to take a bar of just single target encounters, would they get beaten by a TR in paingiver? Of course. Would they be beaten by a factor of TEN? (because they're no longer doing damage to 10 targets at once)
No, not even close.
That's what I'm saying. Our AoE damage (per target) is lower than their single target damage because of course it is. If it was comparable per target we would be so stupidly OP it wouldn't even be funny any more.
This doesn't tell you anything about our single target damage, though: because CWs basically never bother to take single target encounters (because why would they?).
You are reading things that are not there. I'm not even on board with a CW nerf. I advocate making you stronger in areas you are deprived of. Forcing a nerf down your gullet will make you cry harder in all things PvP--which is ofc a domino effect to my class. In breaking your class you would have more reason to break mine.
So if you could just refrain from quoting and arguing with 'misread' intentions, we could have a more civilized conversation here.
Wizards don't know rogues just the way most rogues don't know wizards. I'm a PvE TR and I never get outdamaged by a mage, no matter how better geared, by a factor of ten. The best ones would do it by a factor of 2 or 3. Never higher.
You are all calculating the single target damage difference wrong. As wizards, your damage relies in the Leeroy number of mobs. As rogues, I'm not exactly on the opposite. A rogue's primary source of damage is the Bleed Effect. The higher the HP of our target, the more we can stack Bleed, and the higher it will tick per second.
If let us say you are killing 10 trash mobs at 500 damage per second, the TR is stacking Bleeds for 2000 damage per tick every second, and keeps reapplying that effect until the target is dead. If you can kill 10 soft mobs in a few seconds, the TR takes much longer to kill a bigger target -- more time equals more Bleed ticks -- all the while your trash toys are already dead and you have to compete with our (arguably equal) single target DPS + our BLEEDS, which you don't have much of either.
Did I ever say TRs outdamage mages by a factor of ten? No.
Did I ever say CWs outdamage TRs by a factor of ten? No.
I am saying that CW do MORE damage (like..double or so) in total because your usual CW loadout is MASSES OF AOE STUFF, and dungeons are usually loaded with MASSES OF AOE-ABLE TRASH.
And that's fine. I'm also agreeing that mages do less damage PER TARGET when using masses of aoe stuff because that's exactly how AoE stuff should work. Otherwise it would be so hilariously imbalanced there'd be no point ever taking anything other than CWs (which is close enough to how things are now anyway).
But doing less damage per target when using AoE stuff does not mean that CWs have 'crappy single target damage'. It just means that AoEs are a really stupid thing to use on single targets.
What silver is implying is that if CWs couldn't damage ALL THE THINGS EVERYWHERE we'd be utterly kerbstomped in paingiver because we have terrible single target damage, whereas I'm trying to point out that this is a totally unfair comparison. If a dungeon consisted of fights with just one or two very high health enemies, a CW bringing steal time and singularity and shard and so on....would do very low damage, and would also be an idiot. Those are powers that are very, very good at doing lowish damage to huge numbers of enemies. Using them against single targets would be idiotic, because their actual damage PER TARGET is low.
And this is fine. CWs DO NOT NEED TO USE THOSE AND ONLY THOSE POWERS, though. We have a variety of single target spells which we could use instead, and if we were to do a direct comparison of our single target damage (using single target spells) with that of a TR, yes, the CW would be lower (because single target damage is the speciality of a TR), but not by anything like a factor of 10.
We only use masses of AoE stuff because we CAN, and because this is by far the most appropriate stuff to bring for virtually every dungeon in the game.
Does this make sense?
There is still a Religion Skill Node in Karrundax at the Pyraphenia encounter that cannot be reached, the community has changed a lot in this game to suit, changing EVERYTHING will just result in a bored community.
TR's need more "specialization" to suit the current PvE offering so everyone gets a crack of the whip, and no one is left in the queue holding onto the precious memory of being active amongst the community.
Stacking CW's just makes new players undergo a social personality check as soon as they pick their toon, picking TR or HR is a normal choice, that could lead to failure in the games progression unless the TR's/HR's illustrate "high quality character or skill"
Max 2 of any class makes instances balanced, some handwavium to the effect: Arcane fabric prevents more than 2 CW's from drawing power in the same space at the same time, and there is no longer an issue. Or oversized GWF swords and the heads that wield them cannot fit into the corridors housing monsters as there is simply not enough space.
Easiest option.
Well we are even there,
I have been a vocal advocate against any kind of Rogue nerfs as well. I can see no reason to assume the Rogue class is "unbalanced". Its doing exactly what its intended to do.
Its a high sustained single target damager that does what its intended to do... massacre high powered single targets.
I am also an advocate of adding a lot more of these in dungeons as thats the real problem is other classes not being able to exercise their abillities they were designed for. Their roles are notoriously absent in these dungeons which is what is causing these kinds of problems.
Nerfs will only unbalance everything even further, and never achieve their actual goals. Because these classes were designed for specific roles. Not some communist everyone is the same type cookie cutter type of scenario. They are not, we are not, we both have our strengths and weaknesses, and they are there for a purpose.
I wasn't particularly thinking about paingiver, it is misleading as you've said, but in terms of dungeon clearing; and that cws do it better on all fronts, save the bosses.
Thats what everyone else was saying,
And why everyone is telling you nothing is broken class wise and needs no adjustments.
BOTH Rogues and CWs are working as intended. The CW is NOT massively outdamaging anyone of the DDs. They're actually doing much less damage per target and always have.
But because the only thing in the dungeons is mass mobs thrown at you repeatedly, Of course CWs damage looks disgusting, because their overall damage gets escalated the more and more mobs you throw at them and the entire class was designed for it.
Even though the other classes are actually outdamaging the CW on a large amount on a per target basis by a very large margin on the single targets they're on.... IN those mass mob situations.
Ergo... "adjusting" anything won't do a thing to fix anything, it will just result in more and more stacked CW parties, as the entire class was designed around dealing with those when no other class was.
In other words theirs was the only role really included in these dungeons. The class isn't broken and doesn't need any adjustments, its doing its job just exactly as it was intended to do. Its actually the dungeons that are and have always been "broken" because they never included the other classes abillities in the actual dungeon design for mobs.
No amount of nerfing or buffing will fix this or change anything. The CW is fine and always has been and doesn't need any adjustments.
You're 100% on the money here.
And for the people talking about single target damage...the CW is at the bottom of the list. Which is partly why they're so weak in PvP right now, too. A CW loaded out with their best ST skills vs a TR or a GWF will get crushed in total damage AND DPS (two totally different things, btw).
If we saw more dungeons that focused on tackling, big, bad dangerous foes, instead of bunches of little ones, it'd be a totally different game.
And to that point, another thing that makes CW's OP is Lifesteal...but not by itself. Since we're hitting so many targets for such high damage, our lifesteal out put is multiplied, making us extremely resilient in dungeons. If I'm hitting 5 mobs for 40k damage with 10% lifesteal, that's 20k health per spell, almost a full heal. Which means I can be a bit more reckless when I jump into a pile of mobs. But when I'm just hitting a single mob (like in MC) that can hit me for 10-20k health, but only healing a few k per spell, it's a totally different game. Instead of being indifferent to my agro, I'll get creamed if if someone's not tanking for me (otherwise, I spend the entire fight dodge/spell/dodge/spell/dodge since I now lack the ability to face-tank as I cast).
So anyway, to Silverquick's point. It's a CW's game right now because the dungeons are set to play to their strengths.
The odds are, in fact, always in their favor.
Oh well.