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What not to do when the perma-rogue is at your home point
hamletswords
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,320 Bounty Hunter
Perma-rogues, or even just rogues, can trick a team into losing just by themselves.
If there's a perma-rogue and you can't kill him fast with multiple people (this is known fairly quickly), then what you need to do is just let him cap the point. Then just send 1 person to waste time with him and contest the node. That way, worst case scenario is it's a 1 for 1 exchange of players, and the node is contested most of the time even if the contester is dying to the rogue. This means that in the end, the perma rogue gives his team maybe 50 points (during the times when the contester is respawning). It's an advantage but by no means insurmountable.
Good contesters are HRs and other rogues. If you don't have one of those, then send your toughest guy.
The WORST thing you can do is spend all match with 4 people chasing him around and never killing him.
Every node is equally important score wise. If you can't beat the perma rogue, secure the other 2 nodes.
Even if you do manage to kill the rogue with 4 people, he's just going to be back in 10 seconds, so all you've bought is like 10 points, and you've probably lost hundreds of points since the other 2 nodes went uncontested the whole time. And that's assuming you kill him.
tl;dr: only have 1 person and 1 person only waste time with a perma rogue contesting your home point. This nullifies the advantage the rogue has on the game.
If there's a perma-rogue and you can't kill him fast with multiple people (this is known fairly quickly), then what you need to do is just let him cap the point. Then just send 1 person to waste time with him and contest the node. That way, worst case scenario is it's a 1 for 1 exchange of players, and the node is contested most of the time even if the contester is dying to the rogue. This means that in the end, the perma rogue gives his team maybe 50 points (during the times when the contester is respawning). It's an advantage but by no means insurmountable.
Good contesters are HRs and other rogues. If you don't have one of those, then send your toughest guy.
The WORST thing you can do is spend all match with 4 people chasing him around and never killing him.
Every node is equally important score wise. If you can't beat the perma rogue, secure the other 2 nodes.
Even if you do manage to kill the rogue with 4 people, he's just going to be back in 10 seconds, so all you've bought is like 10 points, and you've probably lost hundreds of points since the other 2 nodes went uncontested the whole time. And that's assuming you kill him.
tl;dr: only have 1 person and 1 person only waste time with a perma rogue contesting your home point. This nullifies the advantage the rogue has on the game.
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
Post edited by hamletswords on
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Comments
Hameltswords, would you care to advise on what to do with 2 - 3 perma rogues that you can't really touch? In your example you give out one rogue being the problem. Often i've been pitted against a team of pvp geared perma stealths that sit on their node and our node, it is a blood nightmare unless the team i'm on has our own or some pretty insane gwf.
Don't even bother if you are a CW though
Perfect frost is a better counter to perma TRs. That recovery reduction is very nasty.
depends on when u actually hit them. a 4 sec debuff might not even be noticed and if it is, their rotation can still last long enough for their daily to be usable.
switching from lesser frost to lesser bile gave me near-instantaneous results rather than guesswork on if it ruined their rotation
Please do that! Good idea. I like free prones on my TR a lot. Then it's time to free DF.
If there is a survival driven TR, and you can't kill him, and/or if he keeps just coming back even if you drive him away temporarily, then simply leave the node. If the team keeps being baited to home node, then even if you eventually take the node back you perpetually lose the other two nodes. The score gap simply grows the more, the longer people waste time.
The best option is to send a TR of your own to theirs to do the same, and use the rest 4 people to push mid. When the home node is taken, the enemy TR will either leave the scene, or stay around to bait some more people. However, if you just frickin' ignore him and keep pushing the other 2 nodes more often than not, eventually the enemy TR is forced to leave to join the fight elsewhere. Then you send one guy who died and respawned to take it back.
...
The worst case scenario is hordes of friendlies flocking to the home node, momentarily drive out the TR, and take home node back. By the time that happens, all the enemies will arrive at your home node, and your entire team is pushed back and halted, never being able to set foot on 2. Hilariously, when you tell your teammates to not do that, often the response is "I don't have to listen to someone who sucks than me. My score is higher than you". Those idiots get those scores because they are pushed back and confined to the home node, thus the ownership of the home node changes around a lot. Yep, newbie logic at its prime.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I sometimes guard a tower with my GF when the tower stealing gets too obsessive. With a Lantern slotted do I often kill the TRs. What makes this hilarious is when other members of the enemy team do not get it that there is a GF standing on the tower and just see a red tower, run for it, only to get killed by me. It is like watching moths being drawn to the light ... Until they come with two and more, and then I die.
Yeah actually the match that pissed me off enough to make this thread is much how you describe. My team was driving itself into a frenzy trying to kill 1 rogue at our point, unsuccessfully all game. I pleaded with them to just have 1 waste time with him but people get tunnel vision.
Then starts the blame game. One guy said I was a terrible HR because my k/d and score was less than his. Meanwhile it's because I spent the game on the opponent's point trying to even out the damage from our point, spending most of the game in 3v1's and 2v1's, and you don't get many kills or points contesting points against bad numbers.
This guy also got mad (like, really mad lol) when I didn't raise him when he died to the problem rogue right outside our base. I explained that I didn't raise him because he can just respawn 2 feet away and have full health. This wasn't satisfactory to him though because in his words it's a team effort and we should all help eachother... People get especially sensitive when they are losing I guess, especially when it's because of the most annoying class in the game owning your entire team.
That's the main thing with perma-rogues, you can't be emotional about them at all. As annoying as they are and as much as you'd love to kill them, you just have to play smart and most of the time just leave the node.
Yeah I'm not sure there's much you can do in that situation. If you can't kill either of them, then you're basically screwed.
I guess I would do my best as a team to keep mid clear of enemies and do what you can to contest both the other nodes. Can't do much more than that.
Luckily I haven't experienced what you describe very often. Usually, as an HR, I can kill most rogues. And when there's a bad one I can't beat, it's usually just one.
Plus if there's two geared permas your team can't kill, it's probably a premade of geared players and you'd probably lose to them as a pug no matter what classes they were playing. I just let losses to premades slide off my back because there's nothing you can do about them and they don't happen that often in my experience. If anything I just marvel at how these guys can still enjoy PVPing when they must never lose, ever. Not sure I'd enjoy it if there was no challenge whatsoever.
Specifically the reason why stealth-based TR builds need a nerf. I'm a TR myself, but it is really difficult to understand why the TR players simply do not acknowledge just how OP being able to contest/troll nodes against 2~3 people at a given time is. Currently, no other class can do that, nor should they be able to do that. The most basic of basic tactics of PvP is numbers advantage. If there's a class that ignores that numbers advantage and does not feel seriously threatened to survival despite facing 2~3 people in a confined area, then there's something wrong.
GWFs were admittedly way more OP before the big patch, but not anymore. Even with poor gear 2~3 people can either kill, or seriously wound a better geared GWF to drive him away. Some of the better GWF/GF players can take more punishment, but only upto understandable levels as a tanking build/class. In the end with enough concentrated firepower, they easily go down like any other.
IMO the better and more skilled you are, the more understanding of general balance you should have. Any TR should understand just how silly it is to have one good TR on the team that knows how to dance on nodes will simply, hilariously decide the fate of the game, as opposed to having none. The current tactical value of the TR class is just too big for one class.
TRs should be a capable opponent to match any other class, but at the same time they should be in for the same fate as any other when they face a numbers disadvantage. Something should be done about this.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
But its not only the stealth thats annoys people. Mostly its their own fault if they were chasing one person with the whole team. Stealth is meant to be a strategic advantage. The real problem is that a perma stealth TR (the pbilethorn, high recovery, high hp/regen, SE-build) is a serious threat to any class, even to TRs (bile was used to counter other perma TRs, wasnt it?). The ability to stay endlessly in a stealth/ITC rotation while inflicting massive dmg over time + SE ignoring every resistance makes the TR so OP right now.
Two solutions: Either nerf stealth itself. Or reduce the dmg output to a minimum if the TR speccs for perma. Or at least fix SE. Shocking is the reason why even in highend premades the TR wins nearly all 1vs1, forcing your team to rotate constantly to the node where the permaTR is.
No. One solution, and only one.
If there is a consensus against the TR's being OP, then the only option is to do away with the bullshi* is to strike at its heart.
The multitude of nerfs TRs received over the past years have done nothing but prove that no "nerf" works against TRs that doesn't touch the bullcrap high INT/REC, fast ITC/SS, stealth rotation builds. Unless this build itself is destroyed, no amount of damage tweaking is to stop TRs being constantly OP in everyway.
As a matter of fact, the constant stream of nerfs tweaking TRs here and there has barely even scathed the high INT/REC, fast ITC/SS, stealth rotation builds at all. The only victim of the nerf is all other TR builds possible, which weren't OP at all.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
True this. Back in open beta, i had a burst damage, lashing blade TR. Focused on stealth/combat advantage, striking lashing blade on an unsuspecting opponent. She was worthless when they nerfed lashing blade, and even more when tenacity nerfed everyone's damage. So, i deleted her, and made a permastealth. Many TRs said they basically forced them to go permastealth, which i dont like at all.
Good players with similar gear (except some classes which should not duel a perma in the first place) can kill me if they're better/get lucky.
How about YOU get better and YOU learn to play a bit more, or YOU learn your job of being support if you're not GWF/TR/HR and play that as it should be...
Leave permastealth alone. Asking for nerfs especially as it derails the topic is against rules. Tired of seeing each topic that has TR in it immediately descending into "nerf them".
The problem is that with everyone QQing about TR's they nerfed and nerfed leaving ONLY perma as a viable build. Now how do you fix this? If they nerf Perma, TR's are gone man, put them on the shelf with GF's dude, they will be useless in PvP.
BUT if they undo some of the nerfs they did before and bring non perma TR back up to snuff, people are going to throw a hissy fit. I honestly don't know what they can do.
They have Broken nearly every class this way now, they can't fix things w/o completely starting over, which is not really an option.
So they will continue on this path, the game will get more ridiculous with every "fix" and eventually the entire planet is going to explode.
GG
Ok you send a guy. TRs are known for their 1v1 supremacy. The sent guys will insta-die. The guys clicks "2", waits 15 seconds, another 10 seconds to come back and get killed again. With this cycle, the node is red 29 seconds and blue/red five seconds.
Clearly this cannot be the right method.
Dealing with the home-base troll tr is in my experience a matter of ignoring him and as a result having a man or two man advantage on other nodes. The tr comes to help and when he does, you send someone back to the node he was trolling. The tr will return. Rinse and repeat. IMO the whole of pvp eventually comes down to effectively rotating team mates among the nodes to achieve a numerical advantage on all of the nodes, as much as possible. The troll tr immediately hurts his team in this respect and it is not something I see much of in premade vs premade.
It really seems like more of a pug thing than anything else. Basically equal gear and a stealth tr is not a big deal. I think tr's that are semi-stealth are more difficult because you are expecting to see them. KNOWING there is a perma stealth tr lurking about means you can take effective measures against it.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Prone doesn't last that long now.
plus it is kind of fun to try to stay on the node while running around in circles :P
Jugger Conq GF
....
Nobody should isnta-die to a perma-rogue, even a CW. They don't have any offensive abilities slotted and they're only damage comes from Duelist's Flurry, which can be avoided most of the time.
People are going to take some damage from bilethorn and COS knives from stealth, but that shouldn't hurt too much, especially if you're a tankier class (1v1 even HR's are tanky with Aspect of the Lone Wolf). TR's can avoid taking even the bilethorn/COS damage most of the time with stealth.
The only time the contester should die fast is when shocking execution is up, and that shouldn't happen too often especially if the contester avoids hitting the combat dummy and giving free AP.
But nonetheless, if your contester is for some reason dying instantly to the rogue, then obviously you should just let the rogue have the point entirely and focus on the other nodes.
Each node is equally important. Why would you ever bother with a node camped by an unkillable character that supposedly can instant kill you. Why not go to one of the other two?
The other reason perma is so effective is because people obsess about their home node. They see it's red or contested when they respawn and without thinking the first thing they do is ride to it. Meanwhile they don't notice that the other nodes may also be red or contested.
Plus on the other nodes you're going to have a 5v4 numerical advantage, and this unkillable and supposedly insta-killing death machine isn't even participating in the fights. Eventually he will leave and you can recap it then.
I think maybe part of why perma's work so well is there's nothing that persistantly shows you on your screen what the status of all the nodes are. In many pvp games, there will be icons showing you the status of the nodes constantly. In this game you often have to turn the camera to see all the nodes. That's not a problem for people that remain aware of the entire battlefield, but it is a problem for people that focus exclusively on killing the enemy and contesting whatever node is closest to them.
If there were icons for each node and even an update ticker of points streaming to enemy in red, I'm not even sure perma would be all that effective. People would naturally be more likely to go to the other nodes.
I've never played in an MMO pvp domination set-up where people were so obsessed with the closest node to base.
I wouldn't suggest riding around trying to find the rogue. With bilethorn it only takes two or three fast range knives to dismount you. Then as the guy said, it's free duelist's flurry which can easily take half your health.
Well, if you can eat the damage from a DF and laugh then your team should have no problem with a rogue.
Yeah problem is there is usually more than one these days, and I can't control what the other 4 people in my pug do.
You get killed at 2, and know you can't take it back right way, probably because your team is all CWs and HRs who won't fight on point. That leaves your home or theirs. You pop up at the camp fire and see that someone is on your base. You don't know whats happening there, except that the point is contested, and it's the closest thing to you and only slight detour to their home. It's only natural go check it out. You see a 1 on 1 so you figure it should be easy to overwhelm whomever your team mate is fighting if it's 2 on 1.