I didn't say that there weren't any skilled perma TRs. There are some extremely skilled ones out there. But the basic build requires little skill to be very effective against most PuGs. The fact that there are a large number of poor TRs has more to do with the number of people playing them than the skill level required.
agreed, however you can say the same of most builds. The effectiveness against PuGs vs premade is exponentiation. Heck most times you don't have to change out of pve skills. To play perma stealth or TR in general in premade requires good timing and really instinct to know when to dodge. They aren't going to let you just stand still in stealth and wipe them out.
Now an effective whisperknife in premades I give my hat off to. That requires a special level of patience.
Guy, you joined 8 weeks ago. You know nothing, at all. Perma stealth is an issue for a longer time than you are playing this very game. I'd like to suggest you, to either keep quiet or be honest, as in unbiased regarding perma stealth. You are just one of them TR, who cannot play when the odds are even. Once you cannot run around and utilize this ridiuclous class "feature/unintended bug" anymore, what are you and the likes of you going to do? Roll the next fotm? And after that gets fixed roll the next fotm?
---
Seriously, get a grip.
You wont believe how funny your post looks to me. Because u base ur whole analysis of my skill level and expertise by my join date. Thats my forum and guild managing account. I play since beta. I play all classes. In pvp, too.
But it doesnt matter because u should judge people by their argumentation and their actual level of reason behind their arguments. Not on numbers of posts or join dates ^^
I explained why perma stealth is not that op despite the fact that many people claim that it is.
The higher u get in the skill and the gear level, the lesser is the threat a perma poses to them.
As explained in my previous posts.
Are they annoying? Hell yes! But thats their freakin job to be so.
What annoys me 1000 times more is watching my whole team fight an enemy TR at home.
You wont believe how funny your post looks to me. Because u base ur whole analysis of my skill level and expertise by my join date. Thats my forum and guild managing account. I play since beta. I play all classes. In pvp, too.
But it doesnt matter because u should judge people by their argumentation and their actual level of reason behind their arguments. Not on numbers of posts or join dates ^^
^true to this. My "join date" says Jan 2014, but ive also played since open beta. But I argue with a tool just cuz his forum and guild management account says hes played since beta. The only difference being that hes whined about this game since open beta, whereas I waited for some time to pass to judge it lol. If he looked up my perfect world account however, hed discover that ive actually played this game since beta, and also made my account BEFORE this game was even in closed beta.
I explained why perma stealth is not that op despite the fact that many people claim that it is.
Are they annoying? Hell yes! But thats their freakin job to be so.
What annoys me 1000 times more is watching my whole team fight an enemy TR at home.
And this is why, despite its annoyances, I don't complain about permastealth... UNLESS permastealth TRs complain about other classes' annoyances. Sure, pathfinder HR is annoying, but guess what? it was mostly due to the pvp set, and theyre changing that. Sure, GWFs (iron vanguard) are the best right now... But they've come a long way(used to blow in pvp and pve). DCs and GFs have been hurting since beta, because of DCs constant nerfs, and GFs hitting like pillows compared to GWFs superior aoe dps.
"People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
agreed, however you can say the same of most builds. The effectiveness against PuGs vs premade is exponentiation. Heck most times you don't have to change out of pve skills. To play perma stealth or TR in general in premade requires good timing and really instinct to know when to dodge. They aren't going to let you just stand still in stealth and wipe them out.
Now an effective whisperknife in premades I give my hat off to. That requires a special level of patience.
...not when you become a Whisperknife-perma.
I hate what I've become, but as for WKs there really isn't an option anymore since the VP nerf killed the alternate style of play. The moment I crossed over to the shameful permazone is the moment that reminded me why I gave up this whole "throw knives from stealth" style in the first place -- it's stupidly easy.
Premade or no premade, easy is easy. Sure, premade-level competition may be strong enough to render your perma-style useless if you are not skilled enough... but in that case, if there is someone in premades that is really so skilled as to have zero problems in dealing with your perma-HAMSTER, then you can imagine what the results would be like if you weren't a perma.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
if there is someone in premades that is really so skilled as to have zero problems in dealing with your perma-HAMSTER, then you can imagine what the results would be like if you weren't a perma.
As a non-perm stealth TR (I am suck at doing the rotation), I don't have to imagine the result. It is already happened to me, the result is, I was sent back to my respawn area very often. :rolleyes:
People need to re-read this! With Mod4 and HRs no longer being the easy counter to TRs, Permas are on the rise!
Most of my losses are from people doing exactly what you should NOT be doing when the perma goes to your home point (i.e. every one of them trying to kill him all game long).
...
The WORST thing you can do is spend all match with 4 people chasing him around and never killing him.
...
It does not rly matter what class it is (i "pug" 99% of the time). And dont let an enemy to lure u away from a (any) node. I usually do exactly that even as a CW.
A bit nosy NW-DKG7E99X6
"Hardcore" exploration journey and dungeon crawl. Read its description prior to trying it.
It does not rly matter what class it is (i "pug" 99% of the time). And dont let an enemy to lure u away from a (any) node. I usually do exactly that even as a CW.
I think it should be a sticky that way I wouldn't have to bump it every couple months after I have a really bad game with fellow puggers who didn't read it.
That's true you can lure people away from nodes as a CW, but people have to come fight you now, they just can't stand there and die. And it's only temporary.
Nobody can hold a node against multiple people like a TR. The key is to not make that even matter and just let him hold it against 1 person (preferably WITH 1 person).
I didn't say that there weren't any skilled perma TRs. There are some extremely skilled ones out there. But the basic build requires little skill to be very effective against most PuGs. The fact that there are a large number of poor TRs has more to do with the number of people playing them than the skill level required.
I would then question if the problem is the build/TR in question, or is it the state of pug matches? The fact of the matter is that in a pug match, if everyone runs to home when it's threatened you are going to lose the match pretty much no matter what as long as 1 skilled player on the other team has persistence. I have seen this done by HR's and GWFs and GFs as well. If your team composition is a bunch of people who have no understanding of dominion tactics then even a CW or DC that's reasonably tough can pressure 3 and dance around pillars. The difference is the TR can GET there easily, and can actually fight multiple opponents ON the node. Which, I might add makes sense in a lot of ways. The class that infiltrates enemy lines and threatens the enemy base is the....... rogue, obviously.
People complain because they see themselves losing because of it which is equally because their team has poor tactics. When you que into dominion you have just as much of a chance of getting a rogue on your team as the other team does unless you come across a partial or full premade, in which case it's really not going to make much of a difference. You see just as many "bad" rogues in pvp as you do "good" rogues. The rogue is not bad, he's just new or learning the class or not conforming to the meta. Most people don't care about that and they say "you suck" or "why are you not back capping". In essence, a lot of people will justify whatever they can in the moment if it suits them. They just want to win, and they want the star role in doing it if possible, without having to make any sacrifices for that star role.
There is absolutely nothing stopping a player from making or playing a rogue in pvp. They have not changed much since the beginning other than getting progressively weaker and continuously nerfed. So if they really are FOTM, or OP and you haven't made one, or play it often, by now, why don't you just admit that you either do not have what it takes to play one or are not willing to make the sacrifices to be in the "star role" in a dominion match. Which is only true in the first place because pug teams have utterly bad tactics and coordination.
I'll start off by saying that the role of "back capper" is the WORST role to have in a pvp match. You will spend very little time getting points or kills unless you are VERY good, and your opponents are very bad. Someone has to pressure three and it doesn't have to be the TR. Few people, of other classes in general, will do this. Becuase they don't want to fight 3vs1, they want to brawl and kill people. So the TR gets handed the sht job, because he is more effective at it. Do you really think that ANYONE likes fighting 3vs, 4vs1? In some matches, sure the TR can fight 3vs1 and win, and even kill all three players. The moment you have a player on a team that can take on 3 of the other team the match is pretty much over, unless the reverse is also true, or one team is using very bad tactics. While a TR might be the most effective at fighting multiple opponents at the same time, a equally good GWF, CW, or HR can probably kill 3 people back to back even faster. You can point to WOB, but then I would point to how slow a rogue builds AP.
I will go out on a limb to say this as it is a bit presumptuous, but I will say it anyway. TRs are often accused of being obsessed with 1v1, there is a reason for this. Now you might be thinking that a TR takes perverse pleasure in killing bad pug players. I would say this is no more true of TR than ANY class doing the same at mid or home. Which, is probably a big factor in why they don't want to go to mid in the first place. Personally, I find it very annoying when pressured by bad players and killing them. In the back of my mind I'm saying "just give up already and move somewhere where you can contribute". I also find it annoying when pressured by multiple GOOD players. In the back of my mind I'm saying "you just want to gank me and your losing the match for yourself". Nope, I don't put much effort into killing 3vs1 if its starkly obvious that it's not going to happen. What I like, what i really love about a PVP match is when I get a good 1v1, because in the role of back-capper, it's the only time you really get to have fun. And I would hazard to say this is true of most top tier rogues. What we love in a 1v1 is where skill comes into play, this is often what pushes us to to keep playing the class in the first place. When we do complain about another class it tends to be when we feel cheated by "no skill" abilities. Thorn ward, roar, passive toughness. I'm not trying to start a class warfare here, just pointing out examples. Now, people are perfectly justified in pointing to "no skill" abilities that a rogue has. But I would say these powers are relatively balanced. Cos, no it doesn't take much skill to land, but it takes TWENTY-FOUR seconds to fully recharge. Path of the blade, has a 18+ second cooldown. It takes me two full rotations to cap my daily, including bait and switch, closer to 4 rotations if people are smart enough to not hit my BnS. One rotation takes 30 seconds. Thats a daily once every minute AT best, assuming I'm in heavy combat the entire time. A cw can pretty much fill their daily bar every 20 seconds in combat. You can't kill anyone but an eggshell with POTB and COS, I by the way use neither. And so it comes down to flurry. Skill with flurry has many many different levels, and those that are not very good with it tend not to play a perma TR for very long or to have much fun with it, exceptions to this as always. Skill with flurry is obvious when you encounter it, because it makes or breaks the permastealth build. To kill people, and survive, this is what flurry brings to the table.
Now, I've heard many people say "I tried perma, I found it easy and boring". Um, no, you do not understand a perma-stealth rogue or DF. "Kill people and survive" You might be able to do this on a person who's back is turned, or someone who's MO is run at you and swing with the most obvious and predictable of attack pattens, and who has 20k HP, and no tenacity. Against any decently geared and skilled player, you HAVE to be good. DF has a 3 second activation time, it has a 2 ft hit box, it has a approximate range of 15 ft depending on movement speed, it is a VERY limited power. Now, try to imagine bypassing GF block with that, catching a sprinting GWF with that, hitting anyone who knows your there and is actually trying to avoid that attack. Movement, positioning, anticipation, timing, precision. You need all of these things to use flurry well and it takes a tremendous amount of skill. The rogues that hit you with back to back flurries predict how you will move, where you will move, when you will dodge and where you will dodge to. They also predict your counters and attack patterns and time all of their defensive maneuvers accordingly. There is I might add not a single passive defensive aspect of rogue and it's all about the timing. Maintaining a stealth rotation, timing ITC, timing flurry CC immunity, timing dodge rolls, movement and positioning, screw up on any of these and your toast. Contest and run, that's not especially hard, but easily countered by any reasonably tough player. Kill and survive, only possible at the highest skill levels, and only countered by a equally good and geared player.
If your being hit with flurry it is as much your fault, because, you are being predictable. To compete with equally geared and skilled players of other classes, a rogue has to be a freaking surgeon with flurry.
Personal achievements of mine are-jumping over someone's head, reversing direction mid jump and landing flurry on their back. Dis-mounting people running past at full gallop with flurry. Hitting someone running directly away from me at full speed with flurry(amazingly hard to pull off). Hitting my intended target 5vs1 vs GOOD players trying to counter me. Predicting the dodge patterns of my target and landing three flurries back to back.
Now if most pug teams have bad tactics, what would a good tactic be?
My ideal dominion tactic is the following.
You have one aggressor, this person pressures the enemy base and denies points/ties up resources. Most important factor is survivability and mobility, both to get there quickly and to last a decent amount of time even if overwhelmed. Secondary factor is the ability to kill, if the aggressor can kill players from the other team 1v1 then that means they will have to at least go 2v1 to kill/drive him off the node. Third objective for the aggressor is to capture/prevent opponents from reaching the node he is contesting. Final objective is for the aggressor is to help out at mid if he is unoccupied. Top pick for aggressor is perma TR, secondary picks are combat HR or sentinal GWF. This is based on survivability, killing ability and mobility.
You have one guard. His job is to protect home, mobility is a non issue, killing ability and survivability go hand in hand, but killing ability is a more important factor and survivability is less. The reason being that even if killed the guard will re-spawn a short distance away. This is also a most inglorious role and equally as important as aggressor. Top pick for guard is GF, secondary pick is destroyer GWF and combat HR. Top priority for the guard is to, capture home, kill/drive off opponents from home, prevent opponents from reaching home, contest home if overwhelmed, and finally help out at mid if unoccupied.
You have two contenders. These players will always go mid and will also remain there pretty much the entire match. The reason being that mid is the most accessible node of the entire map and their mere presence there is a deterrent that will allow you to score points from that node. Contenders should be the strongest members of your team in terms of team dynamics. Their role is obviously to capture/contest/drive off opposing players from mid. What is important is their team dynamics. In other-words the need to be specced and playing to support each other. Both in protecting each other and working together to bring down high priority targets and tough opponents. Top picks for contender are DC, CW, GF. Virtually, any class can be a good contender and actually perma TR is one of the worst. Combat TR is a more effective contender due to higher burst and CC with the right encounter set-ups, or rather, they would be if TR hadn't been in many ways nerfed to the ground.
Finally, you have the floater. By far the most glorious role of pvp. One factor of a floater is mobility, and equally important is "tide-turning capability". The floater travels to the node where they are most needed. Prioritizing mid, followed by enemy base if the floater is unoccupied, and home if they re-spawn. Top picks for floater are archery HR, SW, CW, destroyer GWF and DC. This is based on the advantage of the element of surprise, mobility, and the ability to quickly change the odds in a given battle.
I will also say that while coming into a match with tactics like this will often lead to victory, it is important to adapt and change as the match progresses and different nodes experience different levels of pressure and players defending them. Example, a TR aggressor goes to enemy base and finds himself facing a GF guard which he cannot beat. The TR drops back to mid as a contender and his teammate - a CW goes and kills the GF. GF respawns and heads to mid while his teammate - a gwf, drops back to combat the CW.
Now, if you look carefully at the above, you see that ever class has a role, and the ability to perform well in a given match. However, classes that have high degrees of mobility and self sufficiency tend to have the most options. When your talking in terms of class balance, I feel that every class should have options for both self sufficiency and support. Since contesting any of the three nodes is equally important, naturally, the strength of both your aggressor and guard are key, and not every class can easily fulfill those roles right now, this being aside from more obvious balance issues. Furthermore, in a pug match you very rarely see a dedicated guard or even if there is one, other players than what should be the floater are "assisting" him instead of taking mid.
Now, in a premade vs premade it becomes obvious that perma TR is not over powered and this is why it tends to be a recognized and respected build in the premade community. In a pug match good aggressor vs bad tactics = a loss, and TRs are the ones who have the most practice and advantage in class mechanics in that role. Don't go flaming me as a "elitist premade know it all" because actually I virtually only solo que. I just happen to theory craft on dominion tactics and I think we can all agree that premade vs premade is the only time something like teamplay is explored in depth.
Now, obviously, in a pug match TRs often are the most important determining factor in win or loss. This DOES happen, but TR has already been nerfed enough, the class is hanging by a thread and the slightest shift in balance would make the class all but unplayable in pve AND pvp, do not forget that. The question is, why do pug teams have such bad tactics? I have seen a lot of "pug players are stupid", "pug players are weak", "pug players are selfish". There is a grain of truth in these statements, just a grain, and it's a toxic and abusive attitude to take. As usual, I'm not going to blame the players for the situation but rather the system. One thing a lot of veteran players take for granted is information. No where is it explicitly stated how the dominion system works and a shockingly large amount of people just think it's about capturing nodes or killing people. You can tell them good strat, but really, why should they take your word for it, especially if you've been yelling at them(not that I don't ever do this, I do a lot). There really need to be a clear and comprehensive guide on domination rules available IN GAME, preferably in a hard to miss location such as in the que window next to the que button. You would still have players afraid to die, and camping home. But this time, they have no excuse, right now, they have legit excuses aplenty.
Example, the flurry tool-tip is often very misleading. A clear and comprehensive description of flurry would be the following.
Duelist flurry : This at will power has three phases. The third phase locks on and tracks the target and also provides control immunity. The first two strikes of duelist flurry deal tooltip damage. The third phase of flurry consists of 8 flurry strikes, each flurry strike deals 1/2 of tooltip damage. Each flurry strike has a 50% chance to apply a bleed stack. Bleed stacks tick once per second for 6 seconds and deal 1/4th of tooltip damage per stack per tick. Average flurry damage consists of, 20% of flurry damage comes from the first two strikes, 40% of flurry damage comes from the 8 flurry strikes, 40% of damage comes from bleed stacks. Base damage for a full flurry is tooltip damage x10. Weapon effects proc once for each of the first two strikes, once for each flurry cut, and once each time a bleed stack is first applied.
LEt the Tr s HAve this coz TRs are one of the least Needed on PVE... I dnt know for GF this days but TRs certainly not needed at all... IM not hating on TRs or even other classes.. its just a statement of fact....
Comments
agreed, however you can say the same of most builds. The effectiveness against PuGs vs premade is exponentiation. Heck most times you don't have to change out of pve skills. To play perma stealth or TR in general in premade requires good timing and really instinct to know when to dodge. They aren't going to let you just stand still in stealth and wipe them out.
Now an effective whisperknife in premades I give my hat off to. That requires a special level of patience.
You wont believe how funny your post looks to me. Because u base ur whole analysis of my skill level and expertise by my join date. Thats my forum and guild managing account. I play since beta. I play all classes. In pvp, too.
But it doesnt matter because u should judge people by their argumentation and their actual level of reason behind their arguments. Not on numbers of posts or join dates ^^
I explained why perma stealth is not that op despite the fact that many people claim that it is.
The higher u get in the skill and the gear level, the lesser is the threat a perma poses to them.
As explained in my previous posts.
Are they annoying? Hell yes! But thats their freakin job to be so.
What annoys me 1000 times more is watching my whole team fight an enemy TR at home.
^true to this. My "join date" says Jan 2014, but ive also played since open beta. But I argue with a tool just cuz his forum and guild management account says hes played since beta. The only difference being that hes whined about this game since open beta, whereas I waited for some time to pass to judge it lol. If he looked up my perfect world account however, hed discover that ive actually played this game since beta, and also made my account BEFORE this game was even in closed beta.
And this is why, despite its annoyances, I don't complain about permastealth... UNLESS permastealth TRs complain about other classes' annoyances. Sure, pathfinder HR is annoying, but guess what? it was mostly due to the pvp set, and theyre changing that. Sure, GWFs (iron vanguard) are the best right now... But they've come a long way(used to blow in pvp and pve). DCs and GFs have been hurting since beta, because of DCs constant nerfs, and GFs hitting like pillows compared to GWFs superior aoe dps.
"People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones".
...not when you become a Whisperknife-perma.
I hate what I've become, but as for WKs there really isn't an option anymore since the VP nerf killed the alternate style of play. The moment I crossed over to the shameful permazone is the moment that reminded me why I gave up this whole "throw knives from stealth" style in the first place -- it's stupidly easy.
Premade or no premade, easy is easy. Sure, premade-level competition may be strong enough to render your perma-style useless if you are not skilled enough... but in that case, if there is someone in premades that is really so skilled as to have zero problems in dealing with your perma-HAMSTER, then you can imagine what the results would be like if you weren't a perma.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As a non-perm stealth TR (I am suck at doing the rotation), I don't have to imagine the result. It is already happened to me, the result is, I was sent back to my respawn area very often. :rolleyes:
Ebony (Whisperknife)
Most of my losses are from people doing exactly what you should NOT be doing when the perma goes to your home point (i.e. every one of them trying to kill him all game long).
It does not rly matter what class it is (i "pug" 99% of the time). And dont let an enemy to lure u away from a (any) node. I usually do exactly that even as a CW.
I think it should be a sticky that way I wouldn't have to bump it every couple months after I have a really bad game with fellow puggers who didn't read it.
That's true you can lure people away from nodes as a CW, but people have to come fight you now, they just can't stand there and die. And it's only temporary.
Nobody can hold a node against multiple people like a TR. The key is to not make that even matter and just let him hold it against 1 person (preferably WITH 1 person).
I would then question if the problem is the build/TR in question, or is it the state of pug matches? The fact of the matter is that in a pug match, if everyone runs to home when it's threatened you are going to lose the match pretty much no matter what as long as 1 skilled player on the other team has persistence. I have seen this done by HR's and GWFs and GFs as well. If your team composition is a bunch of people who have no understanding of dominion tactics then even a CW or DC that's reasonably tough can pressure 3 and dance around pillars. The difference is the TR can GET there easily, and can actually fight multiple opponents ON the node. Which, I might add makes sense in a lot of ways. The class that infiltrates enemy lines and threatens the enemy base is the....... rogue, obviously.
People complain because they see themselves losing because of it which is equally because their team has poor tactics. When you que into dominion you have just as much of a chance of getting a rogue on your team as the other team does unless you come across a partial or full premade, in which case it's really not going to make much of a difference. You see just as many "bad" rogues in pvp as you do "good" rogues. The rogue is not bad, he's just new or learning the class or not conforming to the meta. Most people don't care about that and they say "you suck" or "why are you not back capping". In essence, a lot of people will justify whatever they can in the moment if it suits them. They just want to win, and they want the star role in doing it if possible, without having to make any sacrifices for that star role.
There is absolutely nothing stopping a player from making or playing a rogue in pvp. They have not changed much since the beginning other than getting progressively weaker and continuously nerfed. So if they really are FOTM, or OP and you haven't made one, or play it often, by now, why don't you just admit that you either do not have what it takes to play one or are not willing to make the sacrifices to be in the "star role" in a dominion match. Which is only true in the first place because pug teams have utterly bad tactics and coordination.
I'll start off by saying that the role of "back capper" is the WORST role to have in a pvp match. You will spend very little time getting points or kills unless you are VERY good, and your opponents are very bad. Someone has to pressure three and it doesn't have to be the TR. Few people, of other classes in general, will do this. Becuase they don't want to fight 3vs1, they want to brawl and kill people. So the TR gets handed the sht job, because he is more effective at it. Do you really think that ANYONE likes fighting 3vs, 4vs1? In some matches, sure the TR can fight 3vs1 and win, and even kill all three players. The moment you have a player on a team that can take on 3 of the other team the match is pretty much over, unless the reverse is also true, or one team is using very bad tactics. While a TR might be the most effective at fighting multiple opponents at the same time, a equally good GWF, CW, or HR can probably kill 3 people back to back even faster. You can point to WOB, but then I would point to how slow a rogue builds AP.
I will go out on a limb to say this as it is a bit presumptuous, but I will say it anyway. TRs are often accused of being obsessed with 1v1, there is a reason for this. Now you might be thinking that a TR takes perverse pleasure in killing bad pug players. I would say this is no more true of TR than ANY class doing the same at mid or home. Which, is probably a big factor in why they don't want to go to mid in the first place. Personally, I find it very annoying when pressured by bad players and killing them. In the back of my mind I'm saying "just give up already and move somewhere where you can contribute". I also find it annoying when pressured by multiple GOOD players. In the back of my mind I'm saying "you just want to gank me and your losing the match for yourself". Nope, I don't put much effort into killing 3vs1 if its starkly obvious that it's not going to happen. What I like, what i really love about a PVP match is when I get a good 1v1, because in the role of back-capper, it's the only time you really get to have fun. And I would hazard to say this is true of most top tier rogues. What we love in a 1v1 is where skill comes into play, this is often what pushes us to to keep playing the class in the first place. When we do complain about another class it tends to be when we feel cheated by "no skill" abilities. Thorn ward, roar, passive toughness. I'm not trying to start a class warfare here, just pointing out examples. Now, people are perfectly justified in pointing to "no skill" abilities that a rogue has. But I would say these powers are relatively balanced. Cos, no it doesn't take much skill to land, but it takes TWENTY-FOUR seconds to fully recharge. Path of the blade, has a 18+ second cooldown. It takes me two full rotations to cap my daily, including bait and switch, closer to 4 rotations if people are smart enough to not hit my BnS. One rotation takes 30 seconds. Thats a daily once every minute AT best, assuming I'm in heavy combat the entire time. A cw can pretty much fill their daily bar every 20 seconds in combat. You can't kill anyone but an eggshell with POTB and COS, I by the way use neither. And so it comes down to flurry. Skill with flurry has many many different levels, and those that are not very good with it tend not to play a perma TR for very long or to have much fun with it, exceptions to this as always. Skill with flurry is obvious when you encounter it, because it makes or breaks the permastealth build. To kill people, and survive, this is what flurry brings to the table.
Now, I've heard many people say "I tried perma, I found it easy and boring". Um, no, you do not understand a perma-stealth rogue or DF. "Kill people and survive" You might be able to do this on a person who's back is turned, or someone who's MO is run at you and swing with the most obvious and predictable of attack pattens, and who has 20k HP, and no tenacity. Against any decently geared and skilled player, you HAVE to be good. DF has a 3 second activation time, it has a 2 ft hit box, it has a approximate range of 15 ft depending on movement speed, it is a VERY limited power. Now, try to imagine bypassing GF block with that, catching a sprinting GWF with that, hitting anyone who knows your there and is actually trying to avoid that attack. Movement, positioning, anticipation, timing, precision. You need all of these things to use flurry well and it takes a tremendous amount of skill. The rogues that hit you with back to back flurries predict how you will move, where you will move, when you will dodge and where you will dodge to. They also predict your counters and attack patterns and time all of their defensive maneuvers accordingly. There is I might add not a single passive defensive aspect of rogue and it's all about the timing. Maintaining a stealth rotation, timing ITC, timing flurry CC immunity, timing dodge rolls, movement and positioning, screw up on any of these and your toast. Contest and run, that's not especially hard, but easily countered by any reasonably tough player. Kill and survive, only possible at the highest skill levels, and only countered by a equally good and geared player.
If your being hit with flurry it is as much your fault, because, you are being predictable. To compete with equally geared and skilled players of other classes, a rogue has to be a freaking surgeon with flurry.
Personal achievements of mine are-jumping over someone's head, reversing direction mid jump and landing flurry on their back. Dis-mounting people running past at full gallop with flurry. Hitting someone running directly away from me at full speed with flurry(amazingly hard to pull off). Hitting my intended target 5vs1 vs GOOD players trying to counter me. Predicting the dodge patterns of my target and landing three flurries back to back.
Now if most pug teams have bad tactics, what would a good tactic be?
My ideal dominion tactic is the following.
You have one aggressor, this person pressures the enemy base and denies points/ties up resources. Most important factor is survivability and mobility, both to get there quickly and to last a decent amount of time even if overwhelmed. Secondary factor is the ability to kill, if the aggressor can kill players from the other team 1v1 then that means they will have to at least go 2v1 to kill/drive him off the node. Third objective for the aggressor is to capture/prevent opponents from reaching the node he is contesting. Final objective is for the aggressor is to help out at mid if he is unoccupied. Top pick for aggressor is perma TR, secondary picks are combat HR or sentinal GWF. This is based on survivability, killing ability and mobility.
You have one guard. His job is to protect home, mobility is a non issue, killing ability and survivability go hand in hand, but killing ability is a more important factor and survivability is less. The reason being that even if killed the guard will re-spawn a short distance away. This is also a most inglorious role and equally as important as aggressor. Top pick for guard is GF, secondary pick is destroyer GWF and combat HR. Top priority for the guard is to, capture home, kill/drive off opponents from home, prevent opponents from reaching home, contest home if overwhelmed, and finally help out at mid if unoccupied.
You have two contenders. These players will always go mid and will also remain there pretty much the entire match. The reason being that mid is the most accessible node of the entire map and their mere presence there is a deterrent that will allow you to score points from that node. Contenders should be the strongest members of your team in terms of team dynamics. Their role is obviously to capture/contest/drive off opposing players from mid. What is important is their team dynamics. In other-words the need to be specced and playing to support each other. Both in protecting each other and working together to bring down high priority targets and tough opponents. Top picks for contender are DC, CW, GF. Virtually, any class can be a good contender and actually perma TR is one of the worst. Combat TR is a more effective contender due to higher burst and CC with the right encounter set-ups, or rather, they would be if TR hadn't been in many ways nerfed to the ground.
Finally, you have the floater. By far the most glorious role of pvp. One factor of a floater is mobility, and equally important is "tide-turning capability". The floater travels to the node where they are most needed. Prioritizing mid, followed by enemy base if the floater is unoccupied, and home if they re-spawn. Top picks for floater are archery HR, SW, CW, destroyer GWF and DC. This is based on the advantage of the element of surprise, mobility, and the ability to quickly change the odds in a given battle.
I will also say that while coming into a match with tactics like this will often lead to victory, it is important to adapt and change as the match progresses and different nodes experience different levels of pressure and players defending them. Example, a TR aggressor goes to enemy base and finds himself facing a GF guard which he cannot beat. The TR drops back to mid as a contender and his teammate - a CW goes and kills the GF. GF respawns and heads to mid while his teammate - a gwf, drops back to combat the CW.
Now, if you look carefully at the above, you see that ever class has a role, and the ability to perform well in a given match. However, classes that have high degrees of mobility and self sufficiency tend to have the most options. When your talking in terms of class balance, I feel that every class should have options for both self sufficiency and support. Since contesting any of the three nodes is equally important, naturally, the strength of both your aggressor and guard are key, and not every class can easily fulfill those roles right now, this being aside from more obvious balance issues. Furthermore, in a pug match you very rarely see a dedicated guard or even if there is one, other players than what should be the floater are "assisting" him instead of taking mid.
Now, in a premade vs premade it becomes obvious that perma TR is not over powered and this is why it tends to be a recognized and respected build in the premade community. In a pug match good aggressor vs bad tactics = a loss, and TRs are the ones who have the most practice and advantage in class mechanics in that role. Don't go flaming me as a "elitist premade know it all" because actually I virtually only solo que. I just happen to theory craft on dominion tactics and I think we can all agree that premade vs premade is the only time something like teamplay is explored in depth.
Now, obviously, in a pug match TRs often are the most important determining factor in win or loss. This DOES happen, but TR has already been nerfed enough, the class is hanging by a thread and the slightest shift in balance would make the class all but unplayable in pve AND pvp, do not forget that. The question is, why do pug teams have such bad tactics? I have seen a lot of "pug players are stupid", "pug players are weak", "pug players are selfish". There is a grain of truth in these statements, just a grain, and it's a toxic and abusive attitude to take. As usual, I'm not going to blame the players for the situation but rather the system. One thing a lot of veteran players take for granted is information. No where is it explicitly stated how the dominion system works and a shockingly large amount of people just think it's about capturing nodes or killing people. You can tell them good strat, but really, why should they take your word for it, especially if you've been yelling at them(not that I don't ever do this, I do a lot). There really need to be a clear and comprehensive guide on domination rules available IN GAME, preferably in a hard to miss location such as in the que window next to the que button. You would still have players afraid to die, and camping home. But this time, they have no excuse, right now, they have legit excuses aplenty.
Example, the flurry tool-tip is often very misleading. A clear and comprehensive description of flurry would be the following.
Duelist flurry : This at will power has three phases. The third phase locks on and tracks the target and also provides control immunity. The first two strikes of duelist flurry deal tooltip damage. The third phase of flurry consists of 8 flurry strikes, each flurry strike deals 1/2 of tooltip damage. Each flurry strike has a 50% chance to apply a bleed stack. Bleed stacks tick once per second for 6 seconds and deal 1/4th of tooltip damage per stack per tick. Average flurry damage consists of, 20% of flurry damage comes from the first two strikes, 40% of flurry damage comes from the 8 flurry strikes, 40% of damage comes from bleed stacks. Base damage for a full flurry is tooltip damage x10. Weapon effects proc once for each of the first two strikes, once for each flurry cut, and once each time a bleed stack is first applied.