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Ok so no perma-stealth change and a new open world pvp zone Oh God.....
irked01
Banned Users Posts: 91
Really devs? You do realize that all the TR's who are perma-stealth will get together and harass everyone that comes into this zone. A group of 5 comes in to do whatever it is they do and 1 group of perma-stealth TR's obliterate said group.
You need to make sure there is no such thing as perma-stealth before releasing this new open world pvp-zone. TRUST ME when I tell you it will be very very very very bad. I know people right now as we speak leveling a TR just so they can perma-stealth and grieve players in this new zone.
Please for the love of all that is good in the world fix Perma-Stealth BEFORE MOD 3 goes live.
Thanks
You need to make sure there is no such thing as perma-stealth before releasing this new open world pvp-zone. TRUST ME when I tell you it will be very very very very bad. I know people right now as we speak leveling a TR just so they can perma-stealth and grieve players in this new zone.
Please for the love of all that is good in the world fix Perma-Stealth BEFORE MOD 3 goes live.
Thanks
Post edited by irked01 on
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Companions aren't affected by stealth.
Got yourself a companion with a control effect (mine being the Vicious dire Wolf, thanks to his knockback/knockdown) and it'll interrupt the rogue's perma-stealth, or at least tell you where the rogue is, allowing you to drop AoEs on that location.
Still really powerful? Sure. But now we'll have a tell, and that's an excellent counter.
Have you even looked at the proposed stealth changes? There will still be the ability of perma stealth, but you will be able to see them if they are close to you (one of their thoughts)
you also don't seem to have tried the new area yet, either. Please go try it before you grief about it. You are not somehow "surprised" by PvP zones.
what's stopping 5-man TR PvP right now (arena)? If you think that because TRs can perma stealth, means that you are going to have every TR perma stealth troll you, then stay away from the PvP zone, it's really that simple. If you're afraid of it, get 40 of your alignment to enter at the same time and surely the TRs will just turn tail and run - it's not 5v5 but the entire alliance against the other, so there is safety in numbers.
Your attempt at griefing was not based on facts, but assumption, and you know what that says about you: that you're disingenuous to the community, and your post will faulter - you'll probably get support by other griefers, and non-PvPers will jump on your bandwagon (I'm not a PvPer, BTW, and have a TR, but not perma stealth), but you'll most likely just receive more of the same, "Did you even try the zone?" remarks.
Oh, and currently if you have a companion, they don't get stealth (including stones, which means that you'll still see their stone floating around, or know that they're around because of their companion.
Permastealth builds for PvP are designed around survivability + DoT, not spike damage + killing.
Case in point look at PVE epic bosses....
PvE epic bosses are not even touched by TRs anymore. You know why? Griefers complained about their PvP stealth ability because they couldn't figure out how to counter it and they're now not viable in PvE.
Stealth is the only thing that keeps TRs alive, they absolutely melt outside of it, so you need to be a little smarter in approaching them if you're PvPing, get that through your head - YOU are not capable of facing them, NOT they are too powerful. Either learn to counter them, or don't PvP, because your lack of ability should not bring down PvP.
Again, this is coming from someone that doesn't play a perma TR - i have no problem countering them when I've approached them in Icewind Dale, BECAUSE THEIR STONE IS VISIBLE!!!
You must be a very bad player if you can't win outside of stealth. I do all the time. I have a TR she is not perma stealth and I am on top more then I am at the middle or bottom. It is still a cheese play style brought on by those who have this whatever you want to call it to pick their own fights.
In every single MMO there is stealth is a bad idea, but this happens to be the only game with full perm stealth even when doing damage. Also you are talking about a preview server you think that stone will be visible once it goes live? I hope not that is just as not fair as perma stealth is in itself.
Stealth is getting looked at and hopefully Cryptic has the gonads to make stealth so it isn't or can't be perm and then only the real skilled players will be left. You can say whatever you like, but anyone who needs to stay stealthed 100% of the time to beat another player in this game is a bad player.
Not sure what you mean by "not touched" ?? If you mean to say TRs can't hang in Epic DDs, you're totally wrong. I happen to have two TRs (neither my mains). One is perma the other.. never gets played because, frankly, it sucks. The Perma soloed EPIC SP at 9.4GS the first time wearing T1 PvP gear - and it wasn't a fluke, I've done it several times now - the other bosses in the DD too (that means, as a perma, I could go in there alone and win it). I've also soloed the end bosses in most T1s too. It takes forever, yes, but it's totally possible. So, while I kill by nicks and scratches, I can still do it.
Is it appropriate that a single TR can walk up to an Epic DD boss and kill it without having to use even on healing potion because the massive monster and the 500 adds are too dumb to realize they're getting killed by something?
No, I don't think it is.
That said, permastealth is part of the game. Get used to it, learn to counter it in PvP. It's not invulnerability, it's just very tricky.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
DnD also has spot checks, listen checks and a stealth rating, as well as spells like true seeing.
in other words.. counter play to the stealth mechanic. this game has none of that, the closest is the 3 min CD lantern that any rogue will laugh at you for trying to use.
As someone who's mained a rogue since beta, yeah.. I'd be happy to see perma stealth go. The fact that so many TRs feel forged into building perma stealth to be viable kind of speaks volumes.
And no, I don't play a perma rogue, I simply don't find that fun. stealth is in integral part of my play but its not the only thing I can do, I like being able to get up in someone's face and deal some damage, timing dodges etc...
Mod 3 bosses see through stealth.
I dont want to see permastealth touched and even wouldnt even be against a feat that allows for comps to be stealthed. So long as other classes get feats that allow them to detect stealth. HRs (should be able to) can hear, smell, notice tracks and so on better than anyone else so that is a natural mitigation of full on stealth in its self. Wizards should have sense of the astral, so they would sense a being near them via the astral plane. Likewise Clerics being spritualy sensitive so knowing that something is near by. GF's and GWFS...they dont any help. :P
Jugger Conq GF
....
Take that away and 90% of them are bothersome but not deadly.
Makes the OP PVP class less OP
People don't truly believe this do they? In addition to being able to benefit from vorpal on your hits, vorpal is extremely effective using DF because you can get a critical bleed on your target for 100% crit ticks where bile would not even affect that damage. Also, vorpal is extremely effective on moves like daily crits. Overall the damage difference between vorpal and bile isn't noticeable from my experience. The only reason people use bile is because it can drain other rogues stealth. I am sure all of us would prefer to use vorpal to get those crit bleeds and insane daily crits as well as immediate damage rather than delayed damage. However, the only reason bile became popular is because it is an effective counter to the best counter to a stealth rogue which is other stealth rogues.
Maybe the reason you feel that it is so OP is because the majority of the damage comes 4 seconds after the hit, so you can actually see how much damage is being added by the weapon enchant rather than it being covered up and added in to normal hits.
However, bilethorn is definitely not what makes any rogue OP, and I can't believe anyone would attempt to blame the weapon enchant for this seeing as vorpal already makes up 99% of top tier PvP weapon enchants and we have been starting to see at least some variety with another weapon enchant made capable by people using bile to counter rogues.
The ability to constantly drain an opponents health with bile from stealth thrown daggers and potb , drain guard and stealth and eat away other protections without being seen , then if your unlucky enough to get a df rotation on you , your basically done and you were unable to fight back .
Being able to constantly and consistently put pressure on and drain health with 0 risk is OP.
Without that bile, the TR has to actually do something for that damage.
I hardly play my tr because it is so dumb.
Free DMg with every hit, at least with vorp you need to crit.
I've seen no mention of a nerf , so no need to get skerd and lash out yet
No, that is a result of it being a weapon damage based enchant so it applies its hits separate from base damage unlike vorpal. Also because it hits multiple times from a DoT effect. That "draining" is a result of the DoT capability of the enchant and the fact that it is weapon damage. The same could be done with plaguefire, or flaming. The only reason bile is the choice is because rogues deal fast attacks and can ignore the stack limit using bile. Otherwise, flaming is actually more damage than bile if the stack limit is not reached and provides faster/more ticks of damage. Plaguefire also has a defense debuff, which gives it utility aside from straight damage which is another reason why bile isn't OP in comparison to those two since its role is to focus on straight damage without the extra team/debuff benefits.
Also, PoTB isn't even affected by weapon enchants and you cannot use it while maintaining stealth.
The things you mentioned do not pertain to Bilethorn. The draining over time isn't the issue due to weapon enchants either. PoTB and CoS are enough on their own to shread any guard meter or do significant damage over time without weapon enchants. (Despite the fact that again, PoTB is NOT affected by weapon enchants whatsoever.) And finally, again, vorpal and bile damage is pretty equal overall aside from the moments where DF bleeds crit or dailies crit.
Finally, if you fight a perma vorpal rogue with any other class that isn't a perma rogue itself, do you honestly think they will lose just because they are not using a bilethorn? That is ridiculous thinking. The OP issues are the class, not the enchantment that has become popular only because it counters other rogues, not even because it does more damage.
You get bonus weapon DMG and the dot with bile, and with how easy a tr can quickly stack it from stealth with daggers at range , bonus dmg plus Dot ticks. With vorpal, you actually need to hit stuff because daggers alone are not enough these days. And you don't need to be 100% perma to use potb with itc and ss for it to be effectively perma.
Take away the bile and the damage is not nearly as bad
Vorp will add a little with daggers but not all that much with themediocre Dmg and 40% crit rate maybe 3 crits with a little more severity.
Then for any real use you need to actually land an encounter or flurry to get that "potential" bonus.
Vorp is great for big hits, bile is good for smaller faster attacks like the tr is capable of add in semi perma and potb and you literally don't need to do anything, but take away the free ez bile DMG on every hit and its now easily sustainable
Yes perma tr with vorpal are reasonable opponents, not OP
Bile turns a big hitter into an invisible dotter. Add more options for stuff to synergize with other classes and maybe it would be ok
Lol that's frigging hysterical.
If that's true it means rogues won't be able to use pets or Ioun Stones without getting spotted which seriously weakens an already weak damager. On top of that, one lantern of revelation burst and boom, he's visible.
I'd much rather see them able to walk up to you and just insta-kill you or close to it if striking from stealth and a position of combat advantage.... and then be revealed.
That's the mark of an assassin class and very in line with D&D.
The perma stealth thing is pretty cheezy and I actually agree. Not that I really care given the circumstances of how it actually works.
Many experienced rogues now run an AP based build and fire off dailies very quickly. That alone could make vorpal more significant than bile. Also, what you are describing is a rogue that doesn't use DF. Again, the reason vorpal is relatively even with bile is because you have the potential to crit 100% on DF bleeds. That is where vorpal makes up damage against bile. I can guarantee you will not run into any top tier PvP rogues who only run CoS and PoTB for their damage while completely neglecting a melee at-will. It absolutely isn't effective and is just limiting your own incredible damage potential. Unless your fighting someone who knows nothing about PvP, doesn't have decent HP/regen, then there is no reason a rogue could get by being effective without DF or another at-will as their main damage. CoS is secondary damage and is not as effective compared to DF or using another melee at will or even compared to PoTB.
Also if you talk around with the top tier PvP rogues, most of them do still have or switch back between vorpal at times. Many will only use bile if there are stealth rogues on the other team. Sometimes only if there are 2. Otherwise they will run with vorpal because of the better spike damage.
Also, what do you mean add more stuff to synergize with other classes? I'm currently making a melee HR that will be running bile as well in mod 3. There are also people talking on the TR forums one of which who has a bile based CW that acts as a counter stealth rogues and the amount of bile stacks it can create adds a decent amount of extra damage on its own. Working the numbers on bile as a melee HR stacking power rather than crit in mod 3 I should be able to achieve more damage from bile and power than vorpal and crit.
If you are dumb enough to get hit by a flurry rotation other than a mass brawl or an occasional OOPs then you deserve to die. And the bile DMG from a rotation is as signifigant, more so with tenacity crit dmg reduction.You don't need a vorp to have high crit dmg as a tr. other than scrubs that eat flurry rotations and broken shocking exe, vorpal is good for what? Lashing?
So vorpal is better against nubs that get hit by flurry rotations ( moderately better at best) and dumb enough to eat a lashing blade.
Oh and a broken daily that consistently hits for overkill where the vorp is wasted.
Usogud
And why would the tr I'm talking about not use DF? Is free chance with itc/stealth
If no one is ever "stupid" enough to get hit by DF why do all top TRs use it as their main source of damage? Maybe because you completely forgot the part about permastealth that you brought up in the first place? Aside from dodges being used to avoid those moves from stealth which could allow you to land DF while under ITC or by using the first 2 portions of DF while stealth and the last after coming out of stealth so they don't realize you already have the first two animations done?
Again, if DF didn't work, all the top TRs wouldn't be consistently using it as their main source of damage reliably.
As to why the TR you are talking about wouldn't use DF, at this point I feel I am just repeating myself. DF is where vorpal make up some of the damage on bile because of 100% crit bleed ticks once it crits. Also the base damage of flurry is higher than CoS I believe, making it more beneficial to vorpal compared to CoS. You were complaining about the Bile damage without DF, but DF is the main source of damage for rogues.
Also again, vorpal is not more significant because of that, but more because of dailies and most top TRs have moved to AP gain builds.
This discussion is over though. There is no more need to argue about this because now I am just to the point where I am repeating myself and it has gone on long enough. This will be my last post regarding this.
Pointless thing to argue about anyway. If it was truly OP, there would be tons of posts and players backing that up. However, the bottom line is it is the rogue itself that is OP, and bilethorn was only chosen for rogues to counter other rogues stealth meter rather than because it was significantly better at damage (which it is not, especially considering most good rogues are running AP builds now. Read my last posts if you want all the reasons why.)
Also your complaint is about bilethorn and stealth. Stealth is what is getting nerfed/reworked, so why would you even bring up the idea that bilethorn would or should be adjusted?
I may have mis-spoken since I haven't been playing rogue as much post-tenacity and after reviewing the damage for DF and CoS per hit. Bile may be slightly more damage on DF now after tenacity reducing all damage and definitely on CoS, but overall the difference is not a terribly large amount, and is made up by crit bleed and definitely made up by AP builds shooting dailies. It is also immediate damage and better for quick spike damage which proves more effective for killing in PvP if you want to be efficient. I have tried P.Bile and P.Vorpal post tenacity some (not significantly for testing though), but either way the damage overall seems pretty similar for both or slightly less for vorpal except for the significant daily advantage of vorpal.
Also, SE is getting nerfed next mod, but I know TRs that will still be running AP builds, and whirlwind of blades already does incredibly significant damage and is already better than SE 2v1 anyway. That damage is done regardless of HP remaining, so it wouldn't be "wasted" as you say, despite that being incorrect over exaggeration of the capabilities of SE just because it can hit high. Unless it is literally 1 shotting people from full health consistently, then vorpal will help add significant damage to it. (And it is not 1 shotting anyone from full health consistently. That would also be an over exaggeration.)
Vorpal may not be better than bile post-tenacity. (It still may with an AP build. I don't know the exact numbers). However, I can tell you there really isn't much of a difference from experience and the real reason anyone uses bile is because it drains other rogues stealth. That alone combined with the fact that the damage isn't much different makes it an obvious choice to just use bile instead of vorpal for the extra utility effect of draining stealth.
Either way I'm done discussing this. If others will back it up though, I agree we should just nerf bile instead of change rogue mechanics. I support you 100%.
Because people are ignorant and dumb?
Or because they are a GWF in unstoppable, or they have a DC healing them.
If you know your fighting a TR, and your on a node, and it changes/stops changing color , and they are not spamming you with daggers, chances are, they are winding up, and you can hear it if you listen, and you can MOVE and not just stand there, don't be predictable. if your on the edge on node, and they are in the middle winding up, trying to have as much node range as possible, my GF with a little runspeed can move out of range with little problem, you may have to take a step or 2 off of the node, but its so easy to avoid. If they are not in the middle, then they are close enough for you to see, or too far away to land it on you from the other side of the node.
If you have any sort of situational awareness, you should see it coming a mile away.
I think you are misunderstanding me, or I am mistyping something, hard to post from my iphone,
DF is great damage if you can land it and with a perma rotation, there is no reason not to try to land a flurry in, you can easily do so with perma or semi perma/itc .
Bile > Vorpal
I am willing to bet the total damage output from a full dagger unloading is higher with Bile then with vorpal, unless you crit on every attack.
The fact every good TR I run into on any of my toons runs Bile should be an obvious sign.
If they don't have Bile, they go to bottom of my priority list.
What you describe is pretty much the Stalker, the best assassin type class I have ever played in a MMO and it was made by Cryptic so they do have the know-how ( City of Heroes/Villains ). Remains hidden until it attacks, has the potential to do a ton of damage from stealth with assassin's strike, after that its revealed. Always crits when striking from stealth. Has an ability to 'hide in plain sight' for one more attack after the initial revelation (in CoV it was called : Placate - Ranged, Foe Placate, Self Stealth/Hide). Has a dodge and is generally fast paced and not very tanky. Sounds perfect imo but I doubt they'll ever do it.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Edit: Basically this means you can take full advantage of your kiting abilities now.
Second Edit: Except during the event where you have to cap nodes