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GF class discussion

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  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I read somewhere that the damage as indicated in the power section includes the 1/3 of the cone area. This is ofcourse really silly, but there you go...


    Everything hits lower by a 15-20% even more.Griffon's Wrath,AoD ,Bull Char etc..Not just LS....
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    qutsemnie wrote: »
    I don't know about Dummies in particular, but I think all mobs in this game have mitigation. Otherwise mitigation reducing effects that are very common on equipment would not actually do anything =) For example, "lowers defense by 400" requires mobs to have something to lower. I wouldn't assume that the dummies didn't have some trash version.

    Dummies have no mitigation. Also, the only thing that actually lowers mitigation is Armor Pen+DEX(for GF) based Resistance Ignored. Everything else with a tool tip that says it lowers defense or mitigation is actually just a damage buff. High Vizier, High Prophet, Student of the Sword, Divine Glow, marks are all damage buffs rather than anything to do with the target's mitigation. That's why they can be stacked so high to burn tough mobs in seconds.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • skalt112skalt112 Member Posts: 1,089 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I think discussing Gf issues and hoping that a dev responds is pretty much a pipe dream, just going by experience. the Gf is not needed in this game, it is opposed by it's very nature to the fast paced move around and do mass dps that this game is. At it's very base , it has problems so massive they can't really be solved in any 1 way. Whole zones and dungeons need revamping.

    I think so few people play GF's that the devs really just don't care.
  • killernorekillernore Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    comon DEV i dont wanna leave my GF but they need a good rework the dps suck the def, deflect, hp suck even more...the feat just 5 are good .... soo pliss give to GF a good roll like dps or like tank
  • skalt112skalt112 Member Posts: 1,089 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I did a search. GF, Guardian fighter. I did not get a single post in 452 pages where there was a red PW.
  • silence1xsilence1x Member Posts: 1,503 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I have a L60 GF with a mix of 2/2 T1 (Indomitable) and 2/2 T2 (Grand Regent). I've ran him on T1 and T2 dungeons both in Guild and PUG. While I too am confused as to why we get no answers from the Devs, I think we need to succeed in spite of the nerfs/bugs that we all have to live with (just posted in the Bugs section about the Knight's Valor not working since it seems to have been "forgotten").

    What I mean by that is this - if the Devs aren't helping us and we can't get into parties, we need to turn that problem into a strength (pun intended). I have been asked to run Karru, FH, and SP just to kite. I don't mind that. Is it monotonous? Yes it is but I like to think that there are now 4 more people that see what a decent GF can do. I realize that my job as a GF is not glamorous; I'm the dishwasher, trash collector (literally), ditch-digger.

    We have to get out of this funk we're in and start showing people what we CAN do, not what we CAN'T do. If we don't, our class will die a slow, lingering death. Run with guildies or PUG's and show them that we ARE valuable. If enough of us do this, we'll start getting into more parties and the word will spread. People will want to roll a GF just to see what all the fuss is about. For Cryptic, numbers speak much louder than words. Spend some money (or AD) on Zen if you can. I feel certain that the PvP-ers spend a LOT more money than us PVE-ers.

    We will NEVER be as sought after as the CW and the GWF due to everyone's focus on DPS. Much like real life, there are the Type A's that rule the world but without the rest of us, they have no one to rule. It's because of us average people that things get done including the things no one else wants to do.

    I know this sounds like a motivational speech but, think about it - have our complaints really lead to any changes that made sense? I just think we need to try a new tactic.

    Flame on :D
    I aim to misbehave
  • shamgar4shamgar4 Member Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Wow, I was going to post this anyways today, but its a good match with the above.

    After reading all the stuff on the boards about GF problems, it got me a bit down. But I was stubborn and kept trying. Gear, boons, enchants, working on using my guy to the fullest. I have been a tank in many MMO's, so it was nothing really new to me. Finally got a bit frustrated, and switched it up. I'm in a small guild of 3 other RL friends, and we have a in-game CW friend that runs with us. Other three were CW, DC, and a HR. With the split shot changes, and the GF issues, we decided to switch it up... HR made a GWF, and I made a CW. Started running dungeons last night with the new group (3CW, GWF, DC), omg what a difference. Way fast, way easier.

    Lot of people will just say "duh", but my point was that I am further convinced of the broken-ness of it. Could we do these with a GF? Sure. You could also do it in greens probably, but why? And because we are not uber geared yet, like 12k average, some of the content that we are just starting to try (CN, ToS, etc) is pretty rough with the GF not contributing a ton of damage, and that is with Conq spec and KC gear to help the group's damage.

    I will hold onto my GF, pvp and stuff with him, and hope this is corrected, but until then I will lurk here, and probably run my CW.
  • skalt112skalt112 Member Posts: 1,089 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    silence1x wrote: »
    I have a L60 GF with a mix of 2/2 T1 (Indomitable) and 2/2 T2 (Grand Regent). I've ran him on T1 and T2 dungeons both in Guild and PUG. While I too am confused as to why we get no answers from the Devs, I think we need to succeed in spite of the nerfs/bugs that we all have to live with (just posted in the Bugs section about the Knight's Valor not working since it seems to have been "forgotten").

    What I mean by that is this - if the Devs aren't helping us and we can't get into parties, we need to turn that problem into a strength (pun intended). I have been asked to run Karru, FH, and SP just to kite. I don't mind that. Is it monotonous? Yes it is but I like to think that there are now 4 more people that see what a decent GF can do. I realize that my job as a GF is not glamorous; I'm the dishwasher, trash collector (literally), ditch-digger.

    We have to get out of this funk we're in and start showing people what we CAN do, not what we CAN'T do. If we don't, our class will die a slow, lingering death. Run with guildies or PUG's and show them that we ARE valuable. If enough of us do this, we'll start getting into more parties and the word will spread. People will want to roll a GF just to see what all the fuss is about. For Cryptic, numbers speak much louder than words. Spend some money (or AD) on Zen if you can. I feel certain that the PvP-ers spend a LOT more money than us PVE-ers.

    We will NEVER be as sought after as the CW and the GWF due to everyone's focus on DPS. Much like real life, there are the Type A's that rule the world but without the rest of us, they have no one to rule. It's because of us average people that things get done including the things no one else wants to do.

    I know this sounds like a motivational speech but, think about it - have our complaints really lead to any changes that made sense? I just think we need to try a new tactic.

    Flame on :D

    I am not particularly interested in being a peasant.
  • silence1xsilence1x Member Posts: 1,503 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    skalt112 wrote: »
    I am not particularly interested in being a peasant.

    Me neither but even a peasant can upgrade.
    I aim to misbehave
  • durandaeldurandael Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I keep seeing this argument going 'round that GF's are simply not needed or are even contradictory to the nature of Neverwinter. I wouldn't say I agree (in fact I find the notion aggravating), and I think there certainly could be a solid and very fun place for GF's in this game, but it would take a rework of the class and possibly some rebalancing of the game and a dev team willing to, you know, DO it. Let me point out here that I neither PvP nor give a flaming pile of [redacted] about PvP, but after all the games I've tried I never want to hear PvE affecting changes labelled "balanced for PvP" ever again. THAT's a bloody self-contradiction within the game far more than GF's as a class. So specific to PvE, do/can we have a place that fits this game?

    Abso-[redacted]-lutely yes. Tanks do not have to be stationary or even slow, and in most MMO's that include a dedicated tanking role those who play them are often in as much or more rush to plow through the content than anyone else. There's no reason for the pacing of Neverwinter (which really doesn't feel much different to me) to be trotted out as an excuse for anything. As I see it we have a game that launched with a tank that had major teething problems and since they were never addressed to anyone's satisfaction (if at all) the player base got used to working around it. GF's being a drag on the party now does not mean the role is pointless; it means GF's were incredibly poorly implemented.

    How nice would it be to have a party/raid member that didn't put out damage like a CW or GWF but could survive hits no one else could, AND generate enough threat (and or deny the enemy mobility, allowing everyone else to do what they do best? Sounds like a tank to me. Call it a trapping of tradition if you like, but I think it's a great role to play and one of the most rewarding in most games. Maybe GF's need a defense/threat buff and some reworking of the content, and/or possibly even toning down other classes CC abilities. There's a lot of things that could be done here. Making the excuse that the role has no purpose here is as unimaginative as content design that lets people win on CC and DPS alone (or scaling the difficulty up by just throwing in more adds).

    Also, someone posted earlier in this thread (too lazy to go back and find the post) that you don't see other classes complaining for their place in the team, and that it boils down to whiny GF's or some such [redacted]. Is it possible that might be due to no other class having to put up with the lack of utility GF's have (at least since they buffed GWF's)? That struck me as a very hollow argument.

    Before I forget I do have a suggestion regarding the PvP/PvP issue tat I've brought up in several other games. I believe it's been done before, though hell if I can recall what game it was. Why not implement seperate effects on abilities in PvP and PvE. Even WoW (I hate that I'm referencing that infernal beast, but there it is) alters the effects of some abilities when used on players as opposed to AI. PvE and PvP balancing do not have to be the same bloody thing, and in my opinion tuning your game for both like this generally hurts both styles of gameplay.
  • hadesgabrielhadesgabriel Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I just notes the TR manage to find a way to bypass ore prone skills and take no dmg from Frontline Surge or Bull Charge and make themselves perma stealth making us easy targets cutting the guard meter down and one shot us from the back i believe all have experienced this situation
  • mazel76mazel76 Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I play the GF and love the idea behind it, but the skills/powers/at-wills/Encounters "not good". Seriously Knee Breaker, it does nothing. As for Dungeons runs yeah its hard to get a group that will wait for the Tank to get agro. Sometimes I think to myself have these peeps played other mmo's? Don't they know there rolls? Than I realize its all about speed runs get loot and get out. Anyway how about you give the GF more dps powers or aoe abilities. Get rid of the worthless ones. Here's one: Fire Chicken its a aoe/dot, you ignite a area in flames and turn them into chickens and watch them run around in circles. Or just simple Taunt/Fear, enemies take increased dmg and run away for 3-5 seconds. Even a Area Shield call it G0ds armor where it affects a 20 ft radius and anyone in it gets 50% more dmg rest, with deflection bonus or life steal works with mitigation. There has to be something!!!! My GF is aggressive/hybrid build "Self-built" w/ Stone without Vorpal cause I want to be different not a copy/paste/play clone!!!!!
  • molssonmolsson Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I keep getting kicked from Epic dungeons for not being a CW or GWF...
  • vexus99vexus99 Member Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    durandael wrote: »
    ...Let me point out here that I neither PvP nor give a flaming pile of [redacted] about PvP ...

    In case you are wondering, THIS is the exact place many of us stopped reading your post or caring about your suggestions. You only play half of the game.
  • vexus99vexus99 Member Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    In all of the Cryptic games I have played some basic themes are prevalent. They equate damage to HP, and they don't understand DPS, burst or attack speed. They attempt to balance classes based on data mining.

    While HP's are important, coupling them with damage resistance is much more meaningful. For instance, in PvE it is pointless to stack more than 24% arpen, but in PvP many people stack more defense thus more arpen is beneficial. But, in addition to arpen, there are weapon enhancements that reduce or ignore defense ... and none of these are calculated in Gear Score by the way.

    The one unnoticed stat the devs never seem to understand is Deflect. Nothing reduces deflect, not arpen nor any weapon enchantment. It is the hidden gem of survivability and it helps make GWF's and TR's virtually unkillable in PvP by creating a buffer of damage resistance that cannot be debuffed. Devs let those two classes be the king of deflection over the guy wearing Plate Armor and a shield. Odd.

    The Devs have trouble trying to balance damage because they try to break things into damage classes or non-damage classes, and then make damage king for solo and group PvE play as well as PvP. In PvE it is sustained damage that is king, particularly AoE damage.

    In PvP it is Damage Per Second ("DPS") and burst damage that is king. Usually, PvP damage tends to be single target to generate that burst to get the kill before someone can get away. This leads to different skills and different builds for PvE vs. PvP.

    Synergy is another item typically missed in their balance passes. The GWF is OP in part because he has high HP coupled with high undebuffable deflect coupled with high attack speed and decent damage to make much better use of lifesteal than slow hitting classes like Guardian Fighters. Additionally, the GWF is the most impervious to burst damage because he cannot be reliably CC'd. His Unstoppable breaks him out of CC, makes him immune to CC, significantly increases his damage resistance, and on top of everything else greatly increases his attack speed which increases his dps and benefits from lifesteal.

    That's a phenomenal amount of benefits for something that is available every fight and multiple times a fight if it lasts more than a few seconds ... and does not require action points. It's easy to see why that much survivability is near-impossible to balance for the Devs.

    If Unstoppable were either offensive (attack speed, damage buffs etc.) like a berserker rage, OR defensive (CC immunity, increased damage resistance, lifesteal) like Cryptic ' original incarnation of the power named "Unstoppable" in their very first MMO City of Heros, then it could be balanced through tweaking things.

    But as it is now, they have created a mechanic that is either overpowered in PvP or underpowered in PvE. So far all of their tweaks since beta have vacillated between the two poor solutions.

    If they made GWF'S less reliant on Unstoppable they could decide whether they want them to be main tank damage soakers or off tank AoE damage dealers.

    Guardian Fighters are the ugly step child of GWF's in both PvP and PvE these days ... and what everyone would prefer is balance.

    Maybe lower the deflect cap or make those weapon enchants that debuff defense also debuff deflect too.that should make those GWF's more killable in PvP without effecting PvE whatsoever. Maybe remove CC resistance from Unstoppable and the TR's Impossible To Catch all together, making them both more balanced in PvP and having a real role for a GF to tank a boss in PvE because using a directional shield would have meaning and usefulness.
  • morsitansmorsitans Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,284 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2014
    vexus99 wrote: »
    In case you are wondering, THIS is the exact place many of us stopped reading your post or caring about your suggestions. You only play half of the game.

    Level of content would disagree with you.

    How many PvE maps are there?

    ...and how many PvP maps are there?


    PvP is handled, very, very badly in this game, and in all honesty should probably never have been shoehorned in in the first place: it's fundamentally counter to the class distribution they've constructed.

    Thus far, very few things they've done to "improve" PvP have had any affect beyond irritating the PvE crowd, so you can understand why many PvE-focussed people find the constant attempts to 'balance' PvP to be frustrating and pointless.
  • vasdamasvasdamas Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    vexus99 wrote: »
    Maybe lower the deflect cap or make those weapon enchants that debuff defense also debuff deflect too.that should make those GWF's more killable in PvP without effecting PvE whatsoever. Maybe remove CC resistance from Unstoppable and the TR's Impossible To Catch all together, making them both more balanced in PvP and having a real role for a GF to tank a boss in PvE because using a directional shield would have meaning and usefulness.
    Yeah and everyone would just start running 4 CWs parties :D
  • mazel76mazel76 Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    vexus99 wrote: »
    In case you are wondering, THIS is the exact place many of us stopped reading your post or caring about your suggestions. You only play half of the game.

    I thought that about your comment. if I want to play pvp I'll play a FPS. To each there own.:p
  • skalt112skalt112 Member Posts: 1,089 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    The way the game is set up as of this time is balance must be attempted considering both pve and pvp. Bickering over which is more important is pointless and I would go as far as to say counterproductive. If we want to suggest improvements for the developers to consider, we need to take both into consideration, as they have to.
  • query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Not entirely. It seems like Cryptic is working hardest at trying to ballance PVP (and I must say the ELO has lead to a lot more interesting matches for me). The GF is by no means a weak sister in PVP. Consider the coming HR nerf which make sense in PVP but make them even less desireable in PVE. It seems to be an ongoing motif across class lines.
  • airlv14airlv14 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Things i'd say needs some serious work on or minor revamp are :

    Villain's Menace-dmg buff

    Shield Talent- 15%? too low try 30% and increased regen
    Fighters Recovery- needs to grant rabid regeneration while not atking targets.

    Guarded Asssault-lol 3% really? Try 15%

    Crushing Surge-dmg fine , but the animation is awkard and slow.

    Anvil of Doom- Change name to Flail of Doom and make it a 28' Ranged throw that stuns for 1 sec if target doesnt die.
    Furious Reaction-10% too small even with Feat , try 20% base.

    Into the Fray- Increase Temp Hp amount to 10% of yours and allow you to move while casting it.

    Iron Warrior- Terrible base buff , on 30k hp you get 5k hp..8k at least and give 5 secs of CC immunity , still rooted while casting.

    Flourish- Scrap the encounter and give us our own , enough with the copy and paste.

    Steel Blitz- Base proc way too low and so is the damage when procced ..just no.

    Crescendo- Again copy and paste bad mmkay?

    Weapon Master's Strike- Decrease cast time and make base 4/5/6 secs respectively , decrease target mitigation to your encounter powers by 3/6/10%

    FEATS-

    Shield resurgence-3/6/10% from 2/3/4 every 30 secs
    Grit- Buffed to grant 5%/10%/15% of Max points when healed by player power from 1%/2%/3% cooldown increased to 60 secs
    Potent Challenge- Increased to 15%/30%/45% from 5%/10%/15%
    Pin Down- Revamped to grant 10% movement and 10% crit when opponent is affect by your control powers.
    Take Measure- Cooldown reduced to 20 secs
    Menacing Impact- Grants 20% dmg on both instead of 10%.
    Shield Master- Reduced Guard loss to 5%/10%/15%/20%/25% from 2%/4%/6%/8%/10%
    Brawling Warrior- Enforeced Threat now increases your dmg resist by 1%/2%/3%/4%/5% and increased overall dmg by 20%/40%/60%/80%/100%
    Inspiring Leader- Increases Party Members dmg by 2%/4%/6%/8%/10% to make up for KC nerf.
    Terrifying Menace- Stun Removed , now has an extra 3%/6%/9%/12%/15% chance to crit on targets below 25%.


    Class Feature- Mark
    Added more variety depending upon Paragon
    Conquerors marked targets now grant 15% armor ignore.
    Protectors marked targets now do 10% less damage and recieves dmg applied when shield breaks.
    Tacticians marked targets now grant 10% more AP when attacked and grants 15% of enemies daily power used when affected.

    He's right on the money with this one devs, please take note. Love the idea of Mark giving different effects according to Paragon. GFs have been ignored largely in the PVE scene for a long time now, with the only requests coming from Frozen Heart. Please make GFs viable again in PVE. I could care less about PvP, as it is a broken system anyways.
  • skalt112skalt112 Member Posts: 1,089 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    airlv14 wrote: »
    He's right on the money with this one devs, please take note. Love the idea of Mark giving different effects according to Paragon. GFs have been ignored largely in the PVE scene for a long time now, with the only requests coming from Frozen Heart. Please make GFs viable again in PVE. I could care less about PvP, as it is a broken system anyways.

    If this is the case, then I say don't change anything. If one group wants to exclude another just because they don't like it, then we really don't deserve any consideration anyway. Both pve and pvp should be looked at, and one should not be exclusive at the detriment of the other.
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