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GF class discussion
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Since the launch of Module 3 on preview server i noticed that in the open world PVP and in domination PVP Guardian Fighter class is in serious problem.The problem concerns its main and alternative role being both replaced by the other melee class.
Before healing depression there were some viable builds which were made around Player DMG sustain.
After the Healing depression those build are no more and the only way to tank in PvP is to hit shift, which will last no more then 3-4 seconds taking fire from 2 players for example,after that you are dead meat.
The other role you could take was to build your GF for dps/hybrid like i did.And so after the tenacity patch this role was taken away from us also.In concern of the critical DMG being reduced by the amount of tenacity a player could stack.And keeping in-mind that the GF cant go much further on stacking Critical % i would not consider sticking to it.
Now we recently received a few encounter revamped and after time of testing in PvP i found out that they are near to worthless excluding the Bull Charge range.
Tab Class Feature - Its really nice Dev's though about it and actually changed it abit.But is it Enough ?! Do u actually see a difference in your dmg ?! Even if it is 8% DR reduced target it doesnt apply enough to be competitive to the other classes.
Grifforn's Wrath - 3 charges with mediocre to low DMG per each charge and 12 second cooldown on 1 charge.I find a small use in PvE maybe with the feat that stacks DMG on each charge but in PvP its near to worthless because you never find yourself in a situation in which that encounter is superb to frontline or bullcharge for example.Now the animation speed increase does not make it any better at all.The DMG is still to little and the range of it is too small so its just one of the encounter no one uses.
Anvil Of Doom - Hands now this one is awesome.Double DMG on targets on ( or less ) then 25% health.Perfect for taking down GWF for example.Also this has great DPS output in PvE for burning down bosses.This skill also had its animation speed revamped.The DMG is decent enough and the secondary effect is great but i found out that u are not flexible enough to use it because its range is really short and if your target moves for half a second you miss and you end-up with a 14 second cooldown on it.
Enforced Threat - Great use in PvE , No use in PvP. Apply mark ?! okay that fine ...another skill that apply's my Class Feature !
Knight Challenge - This is the encounter which has been put-on-place.After the revamp you can drop its cooldown to 12 seconds! Taking the feat from Conq. path puts u in a clear advantage over your target. BUT the cooldown is bugged because after you kill a target with it and the cooldown goes to 0 you cant use it anymore.Pressing it over a different or same target does not activate it.
Knee Breaker - The thing they did about our over-time DMG encounter is that they made it when activate to move slightly towards your target. TBH i dont find much of a difference and this will be one of the encounter that do not have much>to any use in PvP and i would never try to use it in PvE.
So as conclusion we are left with Bull Charge , Lunging Strike and Frontline Surge as a ultimate encounter combo.
Im not even mentioning the useless bunch of passives/encounters we have.I mean dont get me wrong i was trying to use all of them in different build ideas i had and Stages of the Game Progress but unfortunately there is practically no use of them.
After the drastic frontline surge change i dont see it as a sorce of DMG. Its only use is that it stops your target from moving and apply's Crushing Pin so that why its on my bar in serious matches.
Basicly GF class is with tide hands and playing it after seeing all this back and forth changes of other classes feels like i play something that is far from usefull/competitive in PvP/PvE.
I am playing my GF since Open Beta and i wonder how other class-players feel about the recent changes and if they are happy with whats going on.
Peace !
Before healing depression there were some viable builds which were made around Player DMG sustain.
After the Healing depression those build are no more and the only way to tank in PvP is to hit shift, which will last no more then 3-4 seconds taking fire from 2 players for example,after that you are dead meat.
The other role you could take was to build your GF for dps/hybrid like i did.And so after the tenacity patch this role was taken away from us also.In concern of the critical DMG being reduced by the amount of tenacity a player could stack.And keeping in-mind that the GF cant go much further on stacking Critical % i would not consider sticking to it.
Now we recently received a few encounter revamped and after time of testing in PvP i found out that they are near to worthless excluding the Bull Charge range.
Tab Class Feature - Its really nice Dev's though about it and actually changed it abit.But is it Enough ?! Do u actually see a difference in your dmg ?! Even if it is 8% DR reduced target it doesnt apply enough to be competitive to the other classes.
Grifforn's Wrath - 3 charges with mediocre to low DMG per each charge and 12 second cooldown on 1 charge.I find a small use in PvE maybe with the feat that stacks DMG on each charge but in PvP its near to worthless because you never find yourself in a situation in which that encounter is superb to frontline or bullcharge for example.Now the animation speed increase does not make it any better at all.The DMG is still to little and the range of it is too small so its just one of the encounter no one uses.
Anvil Of Doom - Hands now this one is awesome.Double DMG on targets on ( or less ) then 25% health.Perfect for taking down GWF for example.Also this has great DPS output in PvE for burning down bosses.This skill also had its animation speed revamped.The DMG is decent enough and the secondary effect is great but i found out that u are not flexible enough to use it because its range is really short and if your target moves for half a second you miss and you end-up with a 14 second cooldown on it.
Enforced Threat - Great use in PvE , No use in PvP. Apply mark ?! okay that fine ...another skill that apply's my Class Feature !
Knight Challenge - This is the encounter which has been put-on-place.After the revamp you can drop its cooldown to 12 seconds! Taking the feat from Conq. path puts u in a clear advantage over your target. BUT the cooldown is bugged because after you kill a target with it and the cooldown goes to 0 you cant use it anymore.Pressing it over a different or same target does not activate it.
Knee Breaker - The thing they did about our over-time DMG encounter is that they made it when activate to move slightly towards your target. TBH i dont find much of a difference and this will be one of the encounter that do not have much>to any use in PvP and i would never try to use it in PvE.
So as conclusion we are left with Bull Charge , Lunging Strike and Frontline Surge as a ultimate encounter combo.
Im not even mentioning the useless bunch of passives/encounters we have.I mean dont get me wrong i was trying to use all of them in different build ideas i had and Stages of the Game Progress but unfortunately there is practically no use of them.
After the drastic frontline surge change i dont see it as a sorce of DMG. Its only use is that it stops your target from moving and apply's Crushing Pin so that why its on my bar in serious matches.
Basicly GF class is with tide hands and playing it after seeing all this back and forth changes of other classes feels like i play something that is far from usefull/competitive in PvP/PvE.
I am playing my GF since Open Beta and i wonder how other class-players feel about the recent changes and if they are happy with whats going on.
Peace !
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
We have inundated the Preview and Barracks forums with a constant barrage of "GF needs help" threads and comments for a total of 6 months now. Yes, 6 months (I checked for the first REAL major complaints post-stalwart nerf from August 2013). Yet, the development team simply refuses to do anything other than "acknowledge" that the GF needs help.
Perhaps it is because the GF playerbase is so low; Perhaps it is because they find it difficult to balance; Perhaps it is because priority is always above this one. Regardless of the reason, the GF Class is lost and has NO foreseeable future that we can know of.
You have two choices as a GF:
-Grin and bear it until they eventually get around to fixing the class
-Give up and move on
I chose the latter as it appears to be the only real statement I can make as a consumer that they care about.
The choice is yours.
Villain's Menace-dmg buff
Shield Talent- 15%? too low try 30% and increased regen
Fighters Recovery- needs to grant rabid regeneration while not atking targets.
Guarded Asssault-lol 3% really? Try 15%
Crushing Surge-dmg fine , but the animation is awkard and slow.
Anvil of Doom- Change name to Flail of Doom and make it a 28' Ranged throw that stuns for 1 sec if target doesnt die.
Furious Reaction-10% too small even with Feat , try 20% base.
Into the Fray- Increase Temp Hp amount to 10% of yours and allow you to move while casting it.
Iron Warrior- Terrible base buff , on 30k hp you get 5k hp..8k at least and give 5 secs of CC immunity , still rooted while casting.
Flourish- Scrap the encounter and give us our own , enough with the copy and paste.
Steel Blitz- Base proc way too low and so is the damage when procced ..just no.
Crescendo- Again copy and paste bad mmkay?
Weapon Master's Strike- Decrease cast time and make base 4/5/6 secs respectively , decrease target mitigation to your encounter powers by 3/6/10%
FEATS-
Shield resurgence-3/6/10% from 2/3/4 every 30 secs
Grit- Buffed to grant 5%/10%/15% of Max points when healed by player power from 1%/2%/3% cooldown increased to 60 secs
Potent Challenge- Increased to 15%/30%/45% from 5%/10%/15%
Pin Down- Revamped to grant 10% movement and 10% crit when opponent is affect by your control powers.
Take Measure- Cooldown reduced to 20 secs
Menacing Impact- Grants 20% dmg on both instead of 10%.
Shield Master- Reduced Guard loss to 5%/10%/15%/20%/25% from 2%/4%/6%/8%/10%
Brawling Warrior- Enforeced Threat now increases your dmg resist by 1%/2%/3%/4%/5% and increased overall dmg by 20%/40%/60%/80%/100%
Inspiring Leader- Increases Party Members dmg by 2%/4%/6%/8%/10% to make up for KC nerf.
Terrifying Menace- Stun Removed , now has an extra 3%/6%/9%/12%/15% chance to crit on targets below 25%.
Class Feature- Mark
Added more variety depending upon Paragon
Conquerers marked targets now grant 15% armor ignore.
Protectors marked targets now do 10% less damage and recieves dmg applied when shield breaks.
Tacticians marked targets now grant 10% more AP when attacked and grants 15% of enemies daily power used when affected.
Tenacity Who? Versus GF Master means nada.
I'm uploading another GF, but I realize that will not be good.
very much like to play with GF!
but I think this time is the end!
I tried my BEST to warn everyone on page 19 on this post that the game was going to be hurt. Everything I warned about is slowly falling into place. I also explained how I make montages of games I enjoy, and leave games if the company ignores they're community. Which reminds me, you know what I've NEVER seen before? I've NEVER seen a company reverse a patch before. Even if it's hurting the game lol. It's like typing an essay, notice a typo or fragmented sentence and IGNORING it to type some more lol... With that said, the company of BF4 is about to make a HUGE comeback with all that proof reading going on xD!
It is still way too easy to break the guard and focus a GF down. But when your team is doing work and create rooms for you then you can be what breaks the tide.
The higher level PVP you are in the better a GF would be. The more balanced your team is the better it is for a GF. If my team is running 3 TR or 3 CW then no thanks I don't wanna be the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> GF, unless you enjoy being the punching bag 24/7.
Ironically, the sets that made this weak class viable were bugged or overpowered and have been or will be nerfed (Stalwart, now KC), robbing the class of the only chance to get into a dungeon. I still think GFs are underappreciated due to public perception, but that doesn't change the fact that the class is inferior overall.
The Mark feature has been pointed out rightfully, furthermore it's utterly inexplicable why the class isn't the most tanky one in the game. GFs are more or less strategic threat generators, not a full tank. GWFs can go Unstoppable every few seconds, replenish guard needs much longer and its duration is shorter. Not that GFs can't tank, but the builds needed to accomplish that lack in so many other areas that it has no endgame viability. Even if you'd press GWFs more into the role of a pure Hybrid/DPS, dungeon design would still not benefit a tank/threat class. But hey, devs already announced they want to give GWFs a better aggro control, further cutting into the potential role of GFs.
I agree with the encounter evaluation with the OP, the rotation didn't chance in both PVP and PVE, although the higher target caps and improved Anvil is much appreciated. Knight's Challange is the joke of the century, people were rampaging in the preview section because it was abundantly clear that the skill will be severely bugged (like Knight's Valor) after the rework. That the devs pushed it through anyway is a complete brainfart. Yes, in theory the skill is better now, but it's worth nothing because you can't use it currently.
I don't think there is an easy solution, but I also don't think reworks of the GWF, HR (Mod 3) and CW (announced) are more pressing. There might be a reason why virtually no GFs advertise in /lfg and when I do, I get PSTs that tell me I won't find a group and should gtfo (not literally but you know...). Sometimes inexperienced players get blinded by 20-22k GS, but these are certainly not the groups I want to play with. Also they fixed GS inflation through Reckless Attacker in Mod3.
this class is this game is kinda pointless needs a full rework from encounters to class features and feats + a new TAB maybe a taunt that forces a target to hit for few seconds and you gain heal over time while u hit + a dmg reduce buff from when getting hit by multiple targets in pve so u can stand up if you dont have guard there are so many discuss this class needs a special section for suggestions
More Hp because we are tanks
More Critical chance because we have a base very very low of critical and one feat give 3%, just 3%,all of class in this game have like minimum 25% to 30% critical chance instead the GF around 13 to 20.
More weapons damage: The two better weapons for the GF only get like maximum 549 - 671 damage instead if we talk about the another class have until 1000 damage please, also the another class have like minimum 800 damage
More attack speed: Everyone in this know that GF is very low both encounters as At-will
I think that they wont change our tab,and our tab is weakest by far compared to other classes,we wont see better armor any time soon but we will see nerf of KC in mod 3.I seriously doubt that we will see any weapon buff in the future though we have lowest wep dmg of all classes.
I had 20+k dps spec GF,3 artifacts(epic),all armor sets(grand regent was somewhat best for me),and ench 9-10.GPF and soulforged.
I have been playing for about 8-9 months so far,and I spent a LOT of time on this game.And I must say that I really love tanking in this game.
But I got sick of people telling me that they don't need me,you know,guys telling group kick GF or me.and everyone agrees,and I get kicked really fast(yeah I don't have a guild to run dungeons with). who wants to play a game and take that kind of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>?
So I rolled GWF,he's 14k now)and got my self a real tank.I can take beating,and I can kick ***.
So,I'm not happy to say: roll a gwf,or wait for changes and hope that they'll come soon.
and sorry for my english.its battle every time I try to write something
If the Devs decide to listen, then yes. Honestly I feel like I might be wasting my time, because if the tread I'm making is completely ignored I wasted sooo many hours formulating constructive feedback.......
If u take a GF and build it for damage, what is the use for not taking GWF ? none.
The use of full defense is not nedded and teh damage output is the lowest even if u build to do damage.
I hope that dev team will hear us and do somthing for the GF to help them enter higher dungeons.
NO class can sustain in PVP with a hybrid-build anymore (at least in higher rankings) and without tenacity BECAUSE of tenacity. The Problem in my regards is and will be the GWF, as he got both high defense-ratings and a high dmgoutput.
Module 3 is trying to resolve the Problem: Nerfing the GWF's DPS. Apparently that will only have one impact for both classes. We will have 2 classes that are better in their defensive than their offensive kinds to play.
From my point of view they shouldn't be nerfing the DPS of a GWF, but his defensive skills as it is a ... TWO-handed Fighter. Even now a Destroyer-GWF is with enough Lifesteal, Regen and an overdose of Power still able to survive plenty of Dungeons (exspecially add-fests like Castle Never, etc.) BECAUSE he can take the damage, trigger Unstoppable and refresh his lifepoints with lifesteal and in risky situations: with pots... (i know that because i got a gwf-twink).
In PVP it would have a similar effect: If a gwf would have depressed defensive stats, he would not be the tank'n'dps-role anymore. He could take a sentinel but would still be a beatable opponent OR could use the destroyer-path and be a DPS as he's been made to. As Ant-Monster already mentioned: Tenacity broke it all tho... and the matchmaking System in PVP still does not work. It's either facepalm the enemy-team or getting facepalmed.
With that tweaking, a GF might be useful a little more again: In PVP as in PVE, because we might get back our intentioned role: The Guy that stands at the Front and won't let the mobs/Players get past him, so the CW can do what a cw does, as a healer can and so on... and the GWF couldn't be running in front like a fool, because he would become his role: The offtank and dps: Determinationbuilding is still important and would be verrified by the destroyer T5feat, as a sentinel he could bring up additional debuffs and off-tankabilities, still working cooperative with the gf, even the instigator could profit more of this again: because his ability to gain 12% more dmg when NOT getting attacked will be useful again.
For PVE there's something else kicking in the way again tho: MC might be more worthy to take a GF in again. But what about VT, or CN? Both don't REALLY require ANY meleeclasses. The only option we get there is: giving the party (as GF or GWF) a higher survivability by playing the fleshball stopping adds attacking the cws... and it will stay like that unless the content gets changed itself...
At least that is my opinion...
Edit: P.S. someone else noticed damageincrease in VT and/or CN? Apparently if that is a way trying to balance things out again - that is definitly the WRONG way Cryptic. We (the GF's) can not sustain alot more than the usual cw (dodging aoes, in and out of ranged attacks, etc) and will be effected the same as a cw...
Edit.2:While thinking about all the GF-Problems we currently have, i see no need to buff anything in the GF's skills. PVP might be hard part for the GF atm just as it is for the CW and other classes exspecially when spected for PVE content. But it had been hard for other classes than the GF before Tenacity and the GF had its moments to shine in there... Module 3 will bring up new PVP-content and will change quite alot about PVP-skillsusage and other things as class-balancing, etc. Exspecially when reminding that there will be a whole new PVP-Area and not ony some Dominationmatches in which the main point is to cap some bases and hold them long enough to win... of course certain classes are more adorable in such content as others. Those that are able to cap and hold a base... wow that was simple.
Another point that is very important for PVP-Matches in Domination... Did you queue randomly or entered with a premade - is the oppenent team a randomgroup or an even premade. Is the equippment of both teams balanced or do some have better (pvp-)equipment than others. How much experience do both groups have in pvp and every single member in both cases exspecially in contribution to fighting certain classes. (I do favor a match in which i have to constantly change my encounter and at-will-powers alot, while my enemy is doin the same: Because it shows skilled players trying to get an advantage against the others... and vice versa.)
I srsly have to add that i am not playing as much pvp as i used to do before tenacity got inscripted anymore... so i might be wrong there.
Let's talk about PVE... EVERY content is beatable with ANY kind of Partyconstellation. The current Problem the GF and other "underrated" classes (like the TR, in some cases even the HR and DC) have is that they are not as efficent as a combination of CW's and GWF's. efficiency is the problem. Particular it is caused by human beings... EVERYONE wants his gear to be as high as possible and as soon as he/she can. Why are CW's and GWF's most efficent? Certainly because ppl are able to see a dmgscaling in every dungeon -> that enabled ppl to try and outmax certain builds - like Stox did with the CW - and maximize... efficiency. Anyone is ever seeing anything else but a Thaumaturge-spected-CW around in PVE? Most of them are glasscannonbuilds, with high control and an even higher dps-output. Thanks to the features they got... I would struggle with my PVE-spected GF from time to time if i had not 2 CW's in my Party for CN 4/4 which are able to control the load of adds and putting them down in quite some reasonable time. (The more AOE classes with me the better.)
Nevertheless i am not really needed in those party if we are talking about efficiency. Even when running with a KC buffing the Party with 60% power - replaced by a CW who got 4 ROWS of encounterrotations: More control (+1 Singu, Shard, Icy Terrain...) the efficiency of the party will increase alot. Why is that? Because most mobs in the current endgamedungeoncontent are NOT cc-imun and "weak": What does a controlled add do? No dmg. What does a dead add do? No dmg. <- GF'S and TR's are slowing fights down even if the content would be beatable with both classes in a party.
What problems will occure when the CW gets nerfed: More CW's will be implemented in Party-Creation. What will happen if the GWF gets nerfed. He'll be more easily beaten in PVP content and excluded from Party-Creation.
As a finisher i'd like to quote @junkermyrkle:
Also... Even if this game is a f2p: Developers, Owners, etc. will need to see a reason why to keep this game in a stable situation... MONEY. So if ppl are able to reach all their goals without spending too much effort and money into, this game would crash at the same time.
Valmacha Gelkrâch - 14k PVE-Renegade CW (MoF)
Hrogard Hammerfall - 16k PVE-Destroyer GWF (IV)
Yrianda Willowborn - 15k PVP-Conquerer GF (IV)
Lunging-Strike-Jill - Becoming PVP-Protector GF (SM)
Rit'lek Ku'tar - PVE-Scoundrel TR (WK) - disabled/Invoker
Ilrith Wildfire - HR - disabled/Invoker
Aron Hammerfell - PVE-Protector GF - disabled/Invoker
Galwyn Fenrirdottír - DC - disabled/Invoker
Valmacha Gelkrâch - 14k PVE-Renegade CW (MoF)
Hrogard Hammerfall - 16k PVE-Destroyer GWF (IV)
Yrianda Willowborn - 15k PVP-Conquerer GF (IV)
Lunging-Strike-Jill - Becoming PVP-Protector GF (SM)
Rit'lek Ku'tar - PVE-Scoundrel TR (WK) - disabled/Invoker
Ilrith Wildfire - HR - disabled/Invoker
Aron Hammerfell - PVE-Protector GF - disabled/Invoker
Galwyn Fenrirdottír - DC - disabled/Invoker
Hmm... I don't know. Typically when when CW's and DC's use the correct powers that benefit me and the GWF the MOST, and the GF & GWF are using the proper dungeon powers. Then the CW and DC having aggro is barely an issue. I guess it all comes down too; do the players know what they're doing? Because if all the classes have the proper powers that's gonna benefit the team, then aggro management should be an issue.
Recommended Class Powers:
GF - Lunging Strike, Frontline, Enforced Threat, Cleave, Tide of Iron or Threatening Rush, Enhanced Mark, Combat Superiority, Villain’s Menace, Fighter’s Recovery or Supremacy of Steel.
GWF - (Iron Vanguard) Wicked Strike, Threatening Rush, Come and Get It, Frontline, Not So Fast, Avalanche of Steel, Indomitable Strength, Trample the Fallen.
TR - Duelist Flurry or Sly Flourish, Cloud of Steel, Smoke Bomb, Blitz or Path of Blades, Impossible to Catch or Wicked Reminder, Shocking Execution, Bloodbath.
CW - Icy Terrain [TAB], Steal Time, Shard of Avalanche, Conduit of Ice, Singularity, Oppressive Force.
DC- Sacred Flame, Astral Seal, Divine Glow, Astral Shield, Healing Word or Daunting Light, Hallowed Ground, Divine Armor or Flame Strike.
As a dps is worse than any GWF path.
And yet if you search the whole thread very few GF "prominent" players suggest the only realistic option-the dps increase.
Yet we are flooded with demands as mark enhance (lol) or whatever.
Guys with the current dps and survivability of a GF is aggro is increased GF will die more often=even less desirable in dungeons.
It seems to me that some GFs don't play this class,they play only with their guildies, they are already good geared since beta and have no clue for pvp.And then propose things as mark....Really ???That is your problems guys/Mark?Or that a GF Conq can barely kill an erinya while GWF Sent kills 2-3 the same time??? lol
Another aspect that many discuss a lot is the "place of a Gf in the team and how can boost the team".
Wake up call.First of all the "team" is not something sacred it is not the UN security council is a team made of GWFs/TR/HR/CW which their only concern 99% of the time is to be paingiver and to have most loot.
They don't give up a cent about "your place in a team".if they did than you will be welcomed in parties anyways in T2/CN/VT/MC.While now you are not.
So to me it is a little bit tragic to ask them indirectly what they would want GF to be and his role in the "team".The only thing that concers the other players is to pick you up for SP/FH and be their Benny Hill running like a clown while they have their real fun killing and playing offensivelly.
In countless threads about GWF in hundreds of posts i actually saw one post about GWFs asking for a boost in thier uselfuness in a team.yet all GFs ask this.Wake up guys.
As i said in other posts NW is an action based MMo where 2 things are the key factors in beating it:CC and dps.Nothing else is needed.in 99% of the time.In order Gf to be at least a viable choise needs major DPS boost.
Dmh boost equals more aggro.Dmg boosts equals better survivabiliy.That means that a GF can kill the adds before they kill him and actually TANK better.Simple as that.
Please leave this Mark/Captain set demand aside.they are good but not the real problem The real problem attested by the majority of many GFs actually playing this class is the ridicoulous low amount of damage output of a GF.Equal to a cleric!!lol
Gf is a warrior class in DD and in even in NW Conq GF should at least had same offensive dmg with GWF Sent.