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So...what's your opinion on the Vengeance's Pursuit change?
crystal892f
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 385 Arc User
Hey guys,
I know most TRs don't play Whisperknife (WK), but those who do / did, what's your opinion on the Vengeance's Pursuit (VP) change?
If you don't know what I mean: Before the patch yesterday, VP was kind of an at-will - because it had no cooldown. Also it was buggy because it states it breaks CC but didn't.
The non-cooldown and CC breaking ability was changed with yesterdays patch (although I didn't really test the CC breaking yet).
I understand that VP needed cooldown. Because otherwise no (visible) enemy could ever escape you. You just keep teleporting to them. Mix this with the feat, that slows the target, when you teleport to it, and you had some really nice utility (the damage of VP is way too low to be significant, so you did take VP for utility).
But 16 seconds base cooldown?! I find this ridiculous.
Even if the CC breaking bug is really fixed now, one CC break every 16 seconds? Compare this to Impossible to Catch: 5 seconds CC or even damage immunity every 18 seconds (base cooldown).
Honestly, I don't see any reason to use VP anymore - there are better powers now. Because my beloved VP to Dazing Strike combo doesn't work anymore. Before yesterday, I would VP teleport out of stealth (which shortly stuns), Dazing Strike, hit the target with some at-wills, Shadow Strike, repeat. But now VP won't be off cooldown in time to do this.
I would've been fine with a cooldown of, let's say, 10 seconds - like Dazing Strike. But 16? This just kills any utility for me.
If anyone still finds a good application for VP, I'm happy to hear it. But for now I replaced VP with Impact Shot to stun out of stealth to combo into Dazing Strike ("Impact Stun" combo; thank you kweassa for sharing this). Shame.
I know most TRs don't play Whisperknife (WK), but those who do / did, what's your opinion on the Vengeance's Pursuit (VP) change?
If you don't know what I mean: Before the patch yesterday, VP was kind of an at-will - because it had no cooldown. Also it was buggy because it states it breaks CC but didn't.
The non-cooldown and CC breaking ability was changed with yesterdays patch (although I didn't really test the CC breaking yet).
I understand that VP needed cooldown. Because otherwise no (visible) enemy could ever escape you. You just keep teleporting to them. Mix this with the feat, that slows the target, when you teleport to it, and you had some really nice utility (the damage of VP is way too low to be significant, so you did take VP for utility).
But 16 seconds base cooldown?! I find this ridiculous.
Even if the CC breaking bug is really fixed now, one CC break every 16 seconds? Compare this to Impossible to Catch: 5 seconds CC or even damage immunity every 18 seconds (base cooldown).
Honestly, I don't see any reason to use VP anymore - there are better powers now. Because my beloved VP to Dazing Strike combo doesn't work anymore. Before yesterday, I would VP teleport out of stealth (which shortly stuns), Dazing Strike, hit the target with some at-wills, Shadow Strike, repeat. But now VP won't be off cooldown in time to do this.
I would've been fine with a cooldown of, let's say, 10 seconds - like Dazing Strike. But 16? This just kills any utility for me.
If anyone still finds a good application for VP, I'm happy to hear it. But for now I replaced VP with Impact Shot to stun out of stealth to combo into Dazing Strike ("Impact Stun" combo; thank you kweassa for sharing this). Shame.
Post edited by crystal892f on
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I guess WK TRs will have to change their playstyle. I still think it's a very useful skill though.
The damage is just as low as shadow strike, and no where near as useful. The actual teleport isnt even all that reliable like deft strikes. to even use the CC breaking ability you have to use the first part of the attack first on someone first.
Still, VP is clunky to use and I'd probably slot Deft Strike before I slot VP as long as the VP cast (both parts combined) + cooldown is within 1 second of DS' cooldown.
Either I have MPD, or you just happened to post exactly what I wanted to say. Well put.
It is clunky to use, and given that there is often a nasty pause after the teleport, too, it feels a bit.. half-baked right now. It needs to be slicker, and have a shorter CD. It's not really "Whisperknife" right now, more "Baby elephant knife".
(My TR is only WK for fun right now, as I am a PvEr, so she's not really much use ATM. I decided to play with WK to use up my free respec ahead of mod 3, to see how the new Paragon path was.)
...
(Looks for nearest tree... ties up a noose... let's see.. what should I step up with...)
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Yeah, that's how I feel. Adopted a path/power considered worthless by many, made heaps of effort to make it work, tweak it, polish it, bring it upto at least just below premade-level gameplay...and then bam. They killed it. Haha.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Non Stealth-based TR play styles are in dire need of buffs. Right now there are very little viable ways to play as a TR who does not maximize his Stealth time with the exception of Rustlord's Reflect TR which I think fits in very well with the current meta. VP was getting there, as it is a play style (and a path) that has not been explored much.
Butters TR PVP
The day I respec'd to VP was the worst day I had in PvP. It was like spit in a face, literally a paragon for a so called "pet rogue" which is only good for chasing down poor pugs with your premade IMHO
Can't say that WK's at-will is bad tho :P Was the only reason I wanted to try that build...
WTB Class Reroll please
VP was the reason to play one
With this cool down, there is now no point.
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
1. CC-break still unreliable
(1) CC escape is still clunky.
(2) VP activation so slow: by the time you activate VP(teleport), actually teleport and break out of CC, CC duration is already mostly up
(3) Enemy is further than the maximum activation distance of VP = no CC break
(4) Ofcourse, against the most common, powerful CC in the game, knock-prones, doesn't work
Verdict: Useless as a CC breaker
2. Weak, so weak
(1) With 4.5k power, the base damage(max) for me, 1,329 damage.
(2) With a crit, hits for average 2.2k damage -- my Sly Flourish hits for 2.7k on crits
(3) When used from stealth, hits for 4k... on a crit.. even with a boatload of stealth-related damage buffs + First Strike buff..
Verdict: Useless as an attack
3. Useless stun
(1) VP stuns have not been strengthened in any way
(2) Against high-WIS opponents = stun lasts less than 1.5 seconds
(3) If deflected... stun duration almost non existant
Verdict: Unreliable as a CC
4. That recharge time
Implications:
-- WKs are now totally disadvantaged vs. stealth-oriented TRs
-- WKs are now powerless against CW/HRs
-- WKs are now powerless against GWFs (even the bad ones)
-- WKs are now like putty to GFs
-- WKs now have no way to chase down opponents
-- WKs now have no way to confuse opponents with multiple teleportations
-- WKs now have no way to quick-escape enemy hordes
TL;DR WKs are now DEAD
VP is now a Paragon encounter that:
(1) hits weaker than a single hit of Sly Flourish, an at-will
(2) is clunky, glitchy, less-accurate, slower, and has longer recharge time as a gap-closer than Deft Strike
(3) breaks out of CC once, only on certain conditions, and half-the time only works against CCs that are weak
(4) has a recharge that is only 2 second faster than ITC
(5) Lost all of its prior functionality/utility as:
--- repeatable gap-closer
--- stealth-tracker
--- initiating/opening move as the most powerful WK combo-attack
Final Verdict
-- The loss of all its prior functionality/utility means that effectively, the main "concept" of the WK TRs that actually used VP as a part of his PvP build, is now null, void, defunct. The WK was never as reliable and resilient as MI builds, especially stealth oriented builds. What the WK relied on was VP, and its ability to close gaps quickly and land a very powerful melee combo.
While the MI/stealth-oriented TRs would use a steady stream of attacks from stealth, the WK/VP builds would use stealth as a setup to an alpha-strike to spike up big damage that earns a big initial advantage, and then relentlessly chase and press on the attack. With each rotation VP made it possible to repeat the combos -- most representative case, in case anyone has ever seen my vids, would be against GWFs. Land VP combo, go into stealth when Unstoppable, then VP combo right as the Unstoppable finishes, rinse and repeat until GWF dead.
now. I'm giving up WK and switching back to MI in what..like 6~8 months?
I consider myself -- while not as skilled as the more famous TRs -- as the father of the recent new trend of WK builds, as well as "Combat TR" trends. Looking back at the times when I first came to these boards and suggested people look into WK builds, against all of those ridicule and skepticism... there wasn't such a thing as even "Combat TRs". I dunno if anyone remembers, while it doesn't mean much, I was actually the first one to coin the term "Combat TR" to describe non-stealth oriented, non-solo node contesting, direct-combat support TRs.
Well, all of it is dead and gone now. The fast-paced, action-packed, unique play style was what kept me with WKs, as well as using something different and nurturing it into at least certain level of playability that was previously unrecognized... and **bam**.
With one unexpected, sudden patch, its gone.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I've seen all the changes the rogue suffered since closed beta days and those are the reason people keep switching to stealth build, because devs do not allow the class to thrive. They changed WK, soon they will change how stealth works, then who da hell knows what rogues will be like.
I don't think you understand Rogue had a OP level of 9000000000000....
Despite all these nerf it remains to be a OP class in PVP right next to HR.
All those Rogue players whoever claim those nerf were over the board should slap themselves into the wall.
When you nerf something so OP, they are still OP, simply said
It's not the class that is OP, it's the people that still find a way despite all your complains resulting in a constant TR nerf.
Oh well tho, you HAMSTER@%!DS have already forced me to roll a different class for PvE so it's not a big deal...any more.
WTB Class Reroll please
I didn't get much chance to properly play the WK for a long time. And over those months of neglect and invoking up to 60, there were no furhter changes made to VP. Finally, I got back to the character.
I've been playing my WK in mostly solo PvE right now, basically trying to get some boons and a bit of gear, and most of all to get comfortable with the playstyle. I'm running him as an Executioner on live but have also been trying out a Scoundrel variant on preview to see what feels better (thus far inconclusive). I use a little Sab on both builds, but haven't gone down that tree much because it doesn't offer so much for PvE.
My powers on both builds are basically set up the same, Dazing Strike, VP, and Blitz. I use Disheartening Strike and Duelist's Flurry as Exec, Sly Flourish with the Scoundrel. Lurker's and Hateful Knives for dailies because style.
The style I've been working on is highly mobile, flashy, twitchy, and an absolute delight to play. Unlike a lot of what I play, it doesn't rely on an unvarying rotation. For small mobs, I usually start in stealth, apply DiS to each, and then finish with Blitz as stealth is ending, dodge roll a few times to get stealth ready to use again, repeat. It's with bigger enemies that it gets more fun. The fight starts the same way with stealth and applying DiS. Then I will probably VP to the biggest thing and follow up with DaS. If I'm lucky, stuff will have tried to close on my position sufficiently that I'll hit multiple targets with this combo. Much of what follows is determined by the state of enemy health bars and by what abilities they have. Blitz gives me the option to apply damage to multiple targets while staying close or using it as a gap opener, depending on if I jump-cast it. So I can dodge or Blitz out, toss another DiS, then VP back in to follow up with DaS and melee at-wills. I'm also popping in and out of stealth. Teleporting to an enemy and then disappearing to follow up with a melee attack is fun, but so is dodging away then disappearing and throwing more knives.
Variants on this "in and out" are a signature of making the WK paragon work. With the animation on DiS being so slow (but cool!), effective use of this power requires creating space in which to use it, whether that be a physical distance or a safe pocket of stealth.
I do agree that an infinitely spammable functional CC breaker won't fly, and also recognize that the lack of ITC's window of immunity is a large reason why many players consider the WK a trash paragon. I bow to Kweassa's testing and PvP experience regarding comparisons to how it functioned then and now, and the difficulty of making the CC break work now that it's working.
My theorycrafted comparison:
ITC - You activate the encounter and cannot be controlled for the duration, period.
VP - You have to have a target marked before you get controlled, and be able to follow up with that same target to break control, becoming vulnerable again immediately thereafter.
With a relatively long cooldown on either power, ITC is clearly superior. Without the cooldown on VP, you do at least have a chance of making it work.
What would work with what I've been doing with my WK is a cooldown whose timing would work with my other powers, Dazing Strike and Blitz, rather than a cooldown equivalent to that of Shadow Strike and slightly shorter than ITC's. If keeping the CC break, I don't think this would be overpowered because being able to use that CC break at all hinges on other factors rather than just resulting from pushing a button. But I think that most people who've been playing WKs at this point would rather jettison the CC break they've learned to do without in order to keep their utility.
The suggestion of a cooldown equivalent to Wicked Reminder could also work but I think the CC break would have to be officially shucked in that case.
Truthfully, spammable VP does not seem to have been grossly unbalancing as you can still see how many players look down on the WK path. The damage is low and it can be awkward to use, particularly in a chaotic situation where it does still sometimes try to target yourself or an ally and returns an error message. Line of sight is also a factor, probably more in PvE than PvP, since PvP lacks those pesky skinny candlesticks that somehow prevent you from seeing the hulking brutes on the other side of them.
While I can't say that my Exec WK is broken, he's not as fun to play as he was because of the reduced mobility. He's functional, but he's not really different from another MI TR I play that uses Cloud of Steel and Deft Strike to similar effect. I haven't bothered with the Scoundrel since this week's patch due to lack of preview updates.
I'm going to try PMing Gentleman Crush to get this thread some attention. I know he sincerely cares about combat balance and about making different things viable instead of having everyone play as a cookie cutter. So don't give up hope, guys.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I am not claiming that changes made to the rogue class were over the board, I simply said that the devs narrowed the viable pvp builds down. In fact, the changes made to the skills you considered OP landed a killing blow to the viability the rogue class in pve also, changes to duelist flurry, lurkers...
I do not think rogues should be OP, I do not enjoy steamrolling people, I get my adrenaline from going against tough people, but complaints about rogues and the changes the same have been suffering are just getting beyond ridiculous.
What would justify a 16sec recharge on VP as a Paragon encounter?
Alternative#1
[Range] 80' Range
[Area of Effect] 20'
[Base damage at 3,000 Power] Mark:1,000 ~ 1,500, Teleport:3,000 ~ 4,000
[Cooldown] 16s
[Description]
(1) Throw a dagger at a target, designating them for vengeance. While your vengeance hangs above them, the target deals 10% reduced damage(+5% increase per rank) against you.
(2) While your vengeance hangs above them, you deal 10% increased damage(+5% increase per rank) against the target
(3) As a follow-up power, you may reactivate this ability to teleport to your designated target, breaking free of control effects and teleport to your previously designated target, dealing damage around you (deals equal damage to non-targets).
[Stealth] Marking a target for vengeance does not break Stealth. The follow-up power becomes a single target attack that breaks control effects and teleports you to your designated target, damaging and stunning them for a 2.5 seconds
Alternative#2
[Range] 60' Range
[Area of Effect] 15'
[Base damage at 3,000 Power] 1,000 ~ 1,500
[Cooldown] 16s
[Description]
(1) Throw a dagger at a target, designating them for vengeance. While your vengeance hangs above them, you receive 200% resistance(+50% per rank) to all form of control effects originating from the target.
(2) As a follow-up power, you may reactivate this ability to teleport to your designated target, dealing damage around you.
[Stealth] Marking a target for vengeance does not break Stealth. The follow-up power becomes a single target attack that breaks control effects and teleports you to your designated target, damaging and stunning them for a 1.0 seconds
Alternative#3
[Range] 60' Range
[Area of Effect] 15'
[Base damage at 3,000 Power] 1,000 ~ 1,500
[Cooldown] 16s
[Description]
(1) Throw a dagger at a target, designating them for vengeance. While your vengeance hangs above any target, your deflection chance is increased by 10%(+5% per rank) against any attack originating from the target.
(2) As a follow-up power, you may reactivate this ability to teleport to your designated target, breaking free of control effects and dealing damage around you.
[Stealth] Marking a target for vengeance does not break Stealth. The follow-up power becomes a single target attack that breaks control effects and teleports you to your designated target, damaging and stunning them for a 1.0 seconds
Alternative#4
[Range] 60' Range
[Area of Effect] 15'
[Base damage at 3,000 Power] 1,000 ~ 1,500
[Cooldown] 16s
[Description]
(1) Throw a dagger at a target, designating them for vengeance. While your vengeance hangs above any target, any of your attacks landing against the target will grant 1 stack of "Vengeance" upto 10 stacks. Each stack lasts for 9 seconds, and refreshes the duration of previous stacks.
(2) Each stack of Vengeance provides 2% damage increase and 2% heal depression against the designated target
(3) As a follow-up power, you may reactivate this ability to teleport to your designated target, breaking free of control effects and dealing damage around you.
(4) Teleporting to your target will grant 5 stacks immediately to the target.
[Stealth] Marking a target for vengeance does not break Stealth. The follow-up power becomes a single target attack that breaks control effects and teleports you to your designated target, applying 10 immediate stacks of Vengeance and damaging and stunning them for a 2.0 seconds
...
Alternative#1 simply gives up the clunky "break from CC" mechanics altogether, and transforms the power into a strong damage buff/debuff while Vengeance lasts. When reactivated, turns the power into a medium-damage gap closer.
Alternative#2 replaces the "break from CC" mechanics to extra CC resistance. You will still be easily CCd when someone else attacks you, but at least against the marked target you will be significantly protected.
Alternative#3 also gives up the clunky "break from CC" altogether, and replaces it with deflection mechanics that probably synergizes very well with "Combat Rogues" that rely less on attacks from stealth. This also works only against the marked target, but at least against the marked target, you will have significantly increased deflection chance, which also applies to CCs (since deflecting CC attacks shortens its duration).
Alternative#4 transforms the power into a powerful debuff and a team skill -- while your own survivability is not increased by much (since the original CC-break mechanics of VP sucks), at least team-wise, this skill will provide a significant advantage for focusing targets, both for PvP and PvE.
.........
All of the imaginary alternatives are more powerful than ITC in regards to direct combat strength, at the price of being only effective against single, designated targets (in line with the concept of "Vengeance") or being a team buff/skill -- which is its selling point IMO.
WK having a more offensive encounter that grants much higher attack potential than ITC against individual opponents, but much inferior defensive qualities than compared to ITC, particularly when multiple opponents are around at the same time (since those not marked with VP has no effect and simply can CC you to kingdom come like any other).
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Got any evidence on that? Video would be realy welcome to see that it realy don't break cc all the time.. Might be lags or something ?!
Right?
Don't bother answering the troll.
That guy posted on General Discussions that "JUMPING ALLOWS YOU TO RECEIVE 0 DAMAGE SOMETIMES". Naturally, due to the ridiculous nature of the claim I called for vid/pic evidence. Now he's here with vengeance..
Ayyy caramba. :rolleyes:
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Now, I don't play WK so I don't know how usable it is as a CC-breaker, but clearly that's the full intention of the skill now. Basically ITC_lite.
It'll probably seem weird if you always used it as a gap closer but clearly they mean for you to save it for when you're CC'ed.
If it did work (you guys are implying it doesn't work reliably), it would be a kind of nasty-turnabout- for example:
a CW entangles you and roots you, getting ready to set up the rest of his combo- all of the sudden not only are you free, which they might expect from most rogues using ITC, but you've also teleported to him and are now stabbing him in the face.
That's the intention I believe. Whether or not it works that way I can't say cause I don't play WK.
To it's favor, it does retain the ability to close gaps which ITC does not at all, so it has uses outside of defense.
Do not compare ItC with VP because its like apples and oranges. ItC breaks you free from most control effects and keeps you from being controlled for five seconds, from stealth it gives full immortality. A gwf has 3 skills that will prone you, VP will not break you free from any of them or prevent you from being proned again. ItC if used before he gets to you will save you from all 3 of them.
ItC over VP anyday...
Well, ITC is one of the best skills in the game. That's why I said it seems like this is intended to be ITC-lite.
Just to be clear, ITC doesn't "break you free" from any prone, but yes if you use it right before someone tries to prone you 3 times in row, it will save you from all of them. That's a pretty bad GWF that blows his entire wad during the few seconds ITC is going though...
Really though, nothing is good against prones because any skill that breaks them has to be used beforehand.
I'm thinking more against a CW.
Its basically useless now. Deft strike is better than using VP as a gap closer now.
There's nothing "lite" about it when the CC break itself is unreliable and the recharge is just as long as ITC. It's more like "warped, broken version of ITC". Not apples to oranges, but apples to hunk of rotting organic matter that once used to be an orange.
...and VPs initially a gap-closer. So you get caught by Entangling Force. You;
(1) ...didn't have VP marked on him, so you can't break out
(2) ...did have VP marked on him. You break out and teleport to the CW ...and then get caught by Ice Ray.
(3) ...got caught by Ice Ray the first time, break out and teleport to the CW ...and then get caught by EF
(4) ...got caught by Ice Ray, you have the mark, but the CW is outside range. So no, VP can't break you free
(5) ...were trying to escape... and VP closes you in right next to the enemy you were running away from
VP before the patch had 0 worth as a CC breaker. It didn't work. However it found another use as a 90 worth gap-closer that aided you immensely in combat. WK builds, especially VP-dependant builds like mine or any variants stemming up from it relied on its mobility to survive as well as deal constant damage by remaining in melee range.
Now, after the patch, it has (on a scale of 0~100) maybe 10 worth as a CC breaker and lost all its implications and functionality, applications as an integral part of the tool. It's a gap-closer that deals less than half the damage of Deft Strike and yet has longer recharge. It's a CC breaker that activates slow, doesn't protect you at all, and has none of the combat applications ITC has, and yet has a recharge as long as ITC(2 secs faster).
I could dare say even if they retained the 0 recharge time and still gave it the normal CC breaking function it would still be much inferior to ITC. VP is inferior to any other encounter powers in so many ways, that the only real application and combat-worthy state came from the fact that it was the game's one and only 0 recharge gap closer. This is the only factor that gave WK builds a much more OOMPH in successful attacks than the bland, boring MI TR builds that rely on flinging flimsy CoS knives and jumping around with Duelist's Flurry. WK sacrifices a LOT of the survivability, and relies on getting in as much of that OOMPH as possible before being retaliated by CCs. It was quick, fancy, flashy because being quick, fancy, flashy did have combat use -- ie, when being attacked by someone target some other enemy behind it and teleport to momentarily lose sight.
...
I once mentioned to my TR brothers that the inspiration for my build was Xuna in the Neverwinter CG trailer. The way she flashy moves and teleports to fight. Well, you know what? Now, after this recharge fix, its like the moment where Xuna teleports, gets caught by the undead ork guy, and gets impaled. That's what it is.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'