Ding Ding! Ding Ding! Attention all riders of this thread! It has now pulled into the station and its time for everyone to get off. Please don't forget to take your complementary box of Kleenex with you as you leave.
Just chill for a second man, I am only trying to provide good info about this. Other CW would have not even posted such results since they suggest that the big SE hits are dependent on some very specific stuff and not a common occurrence. It's a good things for TRs I posted this. There are no claims in my post anything is OP and no asking for any nerfs OK?
Just pure information.
thats cool ty
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bobiwanMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Luckily nobody has to convince you of anything. Nor does it matter if you believe it or not. The devs know, which is all that matters. VP's follow-up can dodge SE. Quite probably the first part of VP is able to interrupt SE, but I haven't tested that. DS can dodge SE. Marauder's escape can dodge SE. Fox' Cunning can dodge SE. The fact your reflexes aren't quick enough or you not taking that specific skill has nothing to do with the matter. Sure, Those skills are not 100% guaranteed to work. Latency also plays a role of course. Some skills can't be used at that specific moment because of cooldown or some other reason. Then you're toast. So be it. There's no difference between that and getting stuck in a prone chain from GWFs. A prone chain is merely a slower and more certain death.
Huh. Dodge it with a deft strike? Never tried, seems feasible if timed correctly. I usually ended up just trying to burn the other rogue down first. Usually possible as a combat TR against a perma.
VP's follow-up can dodge SE. Quite probably the first part of VP is able to interrupt SE, but I haven't tested that. DS can dodge SE. Marauder's escape can dodge SE. Fox' Cunning can dodge SE.
Finally somebody who has something to put on the table regarding 'dodging' the 'undodgeable' lol.
I've got one WK TR so I can test VP and DS out if their i-frames (dodge frames or whatever their called in this game) can indeed reliably dodge SE with sufficient timing. I've been trying to dodge it using Bloodbath but haven't been successful as of yet. Unfortunately I don't have an HR with Fox' Cunning but hopefully with this information somebody that runs with it (every HR lol) can do a test too.
The fact your reflexes aren't quick enough or you not taking that specific skill has nothing to do with the matter. Sure, Those skills are not 100% guaranteed to work. Latency also plays a role of course.
Reflexes and skill counters always matter. One only has himself to blame if something goes wrong. Good thing WKs slot VP in PvP so that only leaves DS as a non-optimal skill choice for countering.
Latency is a different matter but at the very least it'd be like "ah, if it weren't for that lag I would've dodged that" sort of thing more akin to attributing loss due to luck.
Some skills can't be used at that specific moment because of cooldown or some other reason. Then you're toast. So be it. There's no difference between that and getting stuck in a prone chain from GWFs. A prone chain is merely a slower and more certain death.
Agreed, skill counters should always be saved for those specific circumstances and wasting them is obviously the same as getting hit by the prone chain in the first place, one only has himself to blame.
That works too. Any reasonably skilled WK or executioner build can take care of a perma. So can any class if it's willing to take the right skills for it. But the discussion here is that people want to cry about the impossibility to dodge SE. Which of course is perfectly possible if you want it bad enough. But like everything else, it comes at the expense of something else.
And that's the real reason people have been crying nerf against the TR for so long. They simply don't want to sac general efficiency to deal with a certain class. They all want to be OP with as little trouble as possible. And they want it 2 hours ago with no work on their part. The kids in this game.. bah. They cry about everything that doesn't come easy. It's disgusting.
So uh, by any class, you mean this includes GWFs and DCs right?
Your countermeasures (plus other stuff) :
TRs - VP and DS (have yet to test out)
HRs - Marauder and Fox (have yet to test out)
GFs - I would assume one simply blocks lol
CWs - Entangling, Repel or OF to interrupt mid-cast (Personal speculation, haven't actually seen it but it'd be cool though Entangling would need to be cast at the same time if it actually works against it)
That leaves us with :
GWFs - no idea
DCs - no idea
Well my point still stands, All non-dodgeable skills should be made dodgeable. No need for nerfs in damage yadah yadah. Period.
And by dodgeable, I mean using 'shift + directional key' to 'dodge'. GWFs have the short end of the stick though, what with being the only class without an active means of 'dodging' or 'blocking' in a supposedly action based combat system... lol (and no, turning unstoppable doesn't count since it is not a reliable way of mitigating SE as of now)
PS. If the Devs ever decide to totally remove the auto-targeting / lock-on system in this game, problems like this would be solved instantly. Ah, that would be really nice... though people who lack the skill to aim or time moves so they'd actually be able to hit would flood the forums and in-game chat like a second coming of the great flood... LOL
In addition to what Pers3phone stated, which was true, certain conditions besides power and vorpal have to be met. These include feats and stealth.
1. Execution while in stealth for Combat Advantage bonus
2. Execution while in stealth for 25% more critical severity
3. Execution after a successful crit for 30% of your base critical severity
A bunch of other situational bonuses that grants the TR critical severity.
However, I managed to test a bit (thanks for the help congo!), and the results are quite interesting. TR was P/Bile, R8s or so, me 30% DR, 20% Tenacity.
What we did was TR builds AP, then tries to SE me as close to full HP as possible.
- non-crit: 5-6K damage
- crit: around 10K damage
As you can see, it looks like SE needs specific conditions to hit hard on high HP targets. A 10K unavoidable daily? I'd say it's quite legit and there are not many reasons to complain.
Things that might cause the big SE hits many witnessed, which resulted in this topic:
- Perfect Vorpal
- Power stacking TR
- certain build? Maybe PvE-ish?
We didn't have a perfect vorpal to test this time but I'll try to test with one if I have the opportunity.
Thank you for posting these results. I'd say the figures you got are about what I see when playing. Judging by these numbers SE doesn't need any changing. As far as I can see it's WAI.
Obviously other feats and powers may affect the amount of damage, but in order to get up to the 25k+ damage being reported you would need an additional 150% crit severity. Kind of unlikely even with a p.vorp.
I realise your testing isn't conclusive, but I would point out that despite all the claims of being one-shotted from 80% that have been flying about of late nobody has posted any actual proof of this. Yours is about the only data that anyone's put up and it's well below the 22-24k you were talking about in your earlier posts.
Luckily nobody has to convince you of anything. Nor does it matter if you believe it or not. The devs know, which is all that matters. VP's follow-up can dodge SE. Quite probably the first part of VP is able to interrupt SE, but I haven't tested that. DS can dodge SE. Marauder's escape can dodge SE. Fox' Cunning can dodge SE. The fact your reflexes aren't quick enough or you not taking that specific skill has nothing to do with the matter. Sure, Those skills are not 100% guaranteed to work. Latency also plays a role of course. Some skills can't be used at that specific moment because of cooldown or some other reason. Then you're toast. So be it. There's no difference between that and getting stuck in a prone chain from GWFs. A prone chain is merely a slower and more certain death.
That's a long winded way of saying;
"I can talk a heap oh shi*, but it doesn't work in real life"
How about this one if we're gonna keep talking bollocks?
Q: How does a squishy TR stand toe-to-toe against a GWF with an all out melee brawl?
A: Easy. Get as close to him as possible, and then keep on moving around his back so you only get minimal hits while landing yours, and then dodge his every knock-prone attack.
Ofcourse, I don't need to prove this. I can just spew it on the forums as something that works well.
:rolleyes:
So, come on. I dare you. I dare all the "SE is not a problem. It is dodgeable and escapable" crowd to go on and prove the cockamimy claims that SE is defenseable against in a non-staged, non-premeditated, actual combat situation where a MI TR closes in and activates it, and then you happen to simply react and escape/prevent from getting hit.
Ofcourse, normally I'd also mention the person to honestly log how many times they failed in doing it, since something that works -- let's say -- only once out of one hundred attemots can hardly be considered a 'solution', but in this case I'll just be content with seeing with my own eyes that one instance. I mean, we have MI TRs dime a dozen in PvP. SE happens every day, every match, so I'm sure anyone can come up with a vid of it happening if its so easy to do.
....
No proof?
Then stop pretending undodgeable powers aren't a problem in PvP. We squishies have all fought against Ice Knives in their prime when it used to hit a lot harder. Nobody really brought it up as a problem because Ice Knives were within bounds of a normal power. It has the ching-ching audible telegraph/warning which you could react to and dodge. It needs the CW to activate it under certainty that it will be hit. Same with any dailies that have high damage. Heck, even Bloodbath you're able to slip away from more than half its damage if you dodge two times during its duration.
I couldn't care less if Shox hits for 10k, 15k, heck even 150k damage. As long as it becomes fully dodgeable.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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shunterinoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
it's not dodgable though, not in the typical sense so every dodging class can avoid it
using a skill to evade it DOES NOT mean that is dodging you are evading it, however by using those other skills, I believe the SE is still up for the TR and if it is up, you are just delaying the inevitable
There's already another vid somewhere in the first few pages showcasing a higher damage done barring the fact that both of these ofcourse are staged.
Well, Shocking Execution's damage for the average TRs should really be doing respectable damage. I even think they should buff the damage lol. The name itself, Shocking Execution, should instill shock and it is an execution afterall.
Thank you for posting these results. I'd say the figures you got are about what I see when playing. Judging by these numbers SE doesn't need any changing. As far as I can see it's WAI.
Obviously other feats and powers may affect the amount of damage, but in order to get up to the 25k+ damage being reported you would need an additional 150% crit severity. Kind of unlikely even with a p.vorp.
I realise your testing isn't conclusive, but I would point out that despite all the claims of being one-shotted from 80% that have been flying about of late nobody has posted any actual proof of this. Yours is about the only data that anyone's put up and it's well below the 22-24k you were talking about in your earlier posts.
Yeah, well, I'm not "out to nerf TRs or something". It's just that this skill is acting kinda strangely sometimes, maybe we should see what exactly is up with it What rustlord said a few posts above probably accounts for some of the observed behavior.
Previous numbers (22-24K on almost full HP) were from a different test with a TR that had Perfect Vorpal. In pure 1vs1 testing conditions, 24K was the most I've been hit with. His non crits were around 10K.
These 2 TRs I am talking about have VERY different builds. The P/Vorpal guy runs a Deflect build of sorts, while the P/Bile guy runs pretty much the classical semiperma/ITC thing. The difference between their SE numbers is quite significant, pretty much double the damage for the Deflect/P.Vorpal build.
Now, in a random match before I did any testing match, while being alone 1vs1 with a TR on point, he SEed me for 30K after just the usual CoS spam TRs do. That was all the damage I too and it didn't take more then 4K HP from my 35. This is the most I've been hit with SE while high at HP. Happened only once. I really dunno why it hit so hard, maybe it had full R10s, maybe full PvE build, maybe he drank all the elixirs in the AH - I really didn't check.
All in all, this skill acts quite curiously and I will try to test it a few more times if given the opportunity and post results.
There's already another vid somewhere in the first few pages showcasing a higher damage done barring the fact that both of these ofcourse are staged.
Well, Shocking Execution's damage for the average TRs should really be doing respectable damage. I even think they should buff the damage lol. The name itself, Shocking Execution, should instill shock and it is an execution afterall.
Great. So I'll change my TR's name to "Oneshot", and the developers will allow me to one-shot my opponents?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Great. So I'll change my TR's name to "Oneshot", and the developers will allow me to one-shot my opponents?
Haha, well that's what we all called the AWP in Counterstrike, "Oneshot", since it did kill peeps with just one shot 99% of the time.
Though I'd rather change my TR's name to "Immortal" so I'll be able to facetank anything lol.
But seriously, a rework of all existing dailies (buff all damages to 'daily tier') as to make a clear distinction to their damage compared to encounters and at-wills would be nice. And ofcourse, not to sound like a broken record or something (lol), rework all at-wills, encounters, dailies to be dodgeable and add i-frames to specific skills to add utility. And most of all... a rework of the combat system which would mean taking the existing lock-on mechanism and all the red tell-marks / signs that mobs, bosses, and player skills telegraph and removing them entirely. This would absolutely make the game a hundred times more engaging, skill-based, and most of all - fun. (this paragraph is offtopic... but yeah lol)
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bonusitemMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 27Arc User
No, they are not "staged". You have no idea what you are talking about.
Another thing, all the rogues that are calling out "I want video proof!". Whey you show them the video proof, they just claim it's "staged".
I'm sorry, I musta missed it. Please point me to the vid proof of someone actively defending himself against SE, so I can observe how people are dodging something that is physically impossible to dodge.
...did I mention Shox even kills Bloodbath, a power that turns your TR invincible to safely land attacks in the midst of AoE attacks?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I'm sorry, I musta missed it. Please point me to the vid proof of someone actively defending himself against SE, so I can observe how people are dodging something that is physically impossible to dodge.
...did I mention Shox even kills Bloodbath, a power that turns your TR invincible to safely land attacks in the midst of AoE attacks?
Check the post again.
bonusitem was referring to the "I want video proof of SE's OP damage" thingy and obviously not the videos of anyone dodging SE.
There has been no videos posted showing anyone evading SE. And besides, if anybody does post a video of a 'staged' method of dodging SE, it would still be proof that it is dodgeable (though it would most likely be a method that does not involve the standard dodging mechanic and therefore wouldn't be applicable to all classes).
I never thought SE can crit this high but u have to admit, he gets all the debuffs he can get from other players and he was actually at 10% at this point i dosen't matter if SE crit with 20k or 200k the result is the same...target is dead....
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
To be honest, there are a few high end PvPers with very good ELO (hence mostly meeting other worthy teams in full 5vs5 PMvsPM) streaming these days.
You should hear the QQ in voicechat from the very Shocking Exec. using TRs when they get shocked themselves It's hilarious.
Quite self-explanatory what most TRs actually think about it.
Same QQ goes for Emblems (after they just used theirs...), GWFs (even as they run with 1-2 most times), permas (even as they are full fotm permaITC themselves) and so on. Even CWs seem to be OP to some people if they dare land a shard combo or even jump around too much...
"If I use OP stuff, it's OK".
"If this other guy uses it against me, he has nolife, he's a creditcardwarrior, he has no skills, his healer/emblem saves him or I would've killed him, he's a coward running for pots, he uses game bugs, he has a glitched race/char/build" and I can go on and on.
To be honest, there are a few high end PvPers with very good ELO (hence mostly meeting other worthy teams in full 5vs5 PMvsPM) streaming these days.
You should hear the QQ in voicechat from the very Shocking Exec. using TRs when they get shocked themselves It's hilarious.
Quite self-explanatory what most TRs actually think about it.
Same QQ goes for Emblems (after they just used theirs...), GWFs (even as they run with 1-2 most times), permas (even as they are full fotm permaITC themselves) and so on. Even CWs seem to be OP to some people if they dare land a shard combo or even jump around too much...
"If I use OP stuff, it's OK".
"If this other guy uses it against me, he has nolife, he's a creditcardwarrior, he has no skills, his healer/emblem saves him or I would've killed him, he's a coward running for pots, he uses game bugs, he has a glitched race/char/build" and I can go on and on.
Cowards running for pots are annoying. Not only because they deny me my rightful kill, but because they are usually hurting their own team in the process just so they can look good on a kill board. There are exceptions were running and grabbing a pot is better for your team than dieing, but the guys that do it tactically aren't the ones I am referring to.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Tactical retreat is one way to win a battle if it's uneven. The only two situations I wouldn't disengage from a fight is if:
1. I would be leaving a teammate to die.
2. I have my healing artifact off cooldown.
If there's two of you, I'd kill the weaker one before retreating, healing up, and coming back to kill you too. If we're doing 1v1 near a potion area, I'd keep my eye on it, grab it first just so you don't get it. It's not like I could tell you in battle "hey we're not grabbing pots, alright?"
I think every soft class deserves a pass from running to a potion now and then (CW/HR/TR)... It just becomes ludicrous O.O moment when the DC or GWF does it. You know you agree xD
I think every soft class deserves a pass from running to a potion now and then (CW/HR/TR)... It just becomes ludicrous O.O moment when the DC or GWF does it. You know you agree xD
I disagree. Since the latest nerf patch, GWFs do not heal like they used to by any stretch. Regen, Unstoppable healing, and artifacts don't do much at all - not even emblems since good teams will stop hitting you.
Have you played a GWF recently? There are times where I have to grab a health potion.
But for some reason, so many rogues just go invisible at 10% health and run away to get a health pot every time at the detriment of their own team. Doesn't matter if they are fighting their home point or if it costs the game, they can't stand to think that they might have a death on the leader board.
So I made a rogue just to see what it was like... and my expectation of EZ mode was not even close. It is so ridiculous EZ mode, that it's a joke. Wow. When I fought bosses, I just stunned them and didn't even get hit one time before they were dead in like 5 seconds. Most of the time, at-wills just killed everything in 2 or 3 shots.
And if you look, it just goes into a jerkface troll of nasty insults and "you stole my rogue build" and "I am better than you - 1vs1 me!" for 14 pages... just classic rogue all over it.
Any character that has an "I win" button (Shocking Execution) that kills almost anything at 50% health, invisible (and can do extra damage while invisible), god mode invulnerable (ITC), immune to all CCs with their at-will, and can stun or lock you out of all your abilities every few seconds and complains that they are going to quit the game because they aren't op enough, is exactly the EZ mode insanity I see from most rogues.
You know why rogues hated the last patch? Because they couldn't stealth and hide behind a column to regen all their health back to full. So many of them threatened to quit instead of actually playing the game using skill.
Shocking execution is, by far, the most OP daily in the whole game... and it's not dodgable, ignores all mitigation, ignores Tenacity, and can be delivered while invisible. It has taken my 40k health down from 80% to 5% in one single shot with no other player around - many times. It needs a nerf. It's way over the top. Any argument against this is insane.
So I made a rogue just to see what it was like... and my expectation of EZ mode was not even close. It is so ridiculous EZ mode, that it's a joke. Wow. When I fought bosses, I just stunned them and didn't even get hit one time before they were dead in like 5 seconds. Most of the time, at-wills just killed everything in 2 or 3 shots.
the only stun that works on bosses is the frost weapon enchant
Any character that has an "I win" button (Shocking Execution) that kills almost anything at 50% health, invisible (and can do extra damage while invisible), god mode invulnerable (ITC), immune to all CCs with their at-will, and can stun or lock you out of all your abilities every few seconds and complains that they are going to quit the game because they aren't op enough, is exactly the EZ mode insanity I see from most rogues.
execution may be a nigh-guaranteed death, but more often than not a hunter will spam disruptive shot and guardians/gwf's spam prones which gives more than enough time to kill the rogue usually. main reason it actually connects is because people aren't paying attention to the rogue or it's done from stealth.
a rogue's god-mode is almost purely exclusive to perma's as combat rogues rarely use that stealth bonus. also, i still think high-end gwf's r far more god-mode than a 4 sec ability because the good gwf's simply don't die except by a rogue.
as for duelist flurry........u do know that's rarely reliable? immunity kicks in on the 3rd hit and can easily be negated by walking away from the 1st 2 hits or cc'ing us then.
we also don't have such convenient stuns. if u get hit by a dazing strike (about 9s cooldown) which is ridiculously easy to avoid then that's sad. every time that skill hit me only occurred because i have to deal with multiple people at once as a rogue/cleric and i still dodge it most of the time. smoke bomb (about 14s cooldown) will likely only catch rogues, gwf's, and guardians which all but guardians can deal with. dazes won't cancel a guardian's block so if he had it up prior to being dazed so it's not very effective. impact shot stun is purely from stealth and it's no longer a dps skill so meh. pretty sure guardians/gwf's have far less cooldowns on their prones than we do on stuns.
You know why rogues hated the last patch? Because they couldn't stealth and hide behind a column to regen all their health back to full. So many of them threatened to quit instead of actually playing the game using skill.
Shocking execution is, by far, the most OP daily in the whole game... and it's not dodgable, ignores all mitigation, ignores Tenacity, and can be delivered while invisible. It has taken my 40k health down from 80% to 5% in one single shot with no other player around - many times. It needs a nerf. It's way over the top. Any argument against this is insane.
we hated the last patch because we lost 1 of our main dps skills, which prior to patch was crucial in actually killing wizards/hunters. however, tenacity over-nerfed wizards cc and gwf's crying got roots nerfed as well so it kinda canceled out the need of a ranged dps skill. before the patch, a single wizard could push me half-way across the map and i had to either choose between dying by attempting to run after them or running to rebuild my stealth meter for another lashing. recently got knocked back like 3 steps from a wizards and i was kinda shocked that this is what became of their repel that we dreaded. y need pre-patch impact shot if no ranged class can actually escape our melee range?
as for our daily, u r talking about rare instances of high damage that has not been backed by proof. also, it's not purely the daily doing all that damage as that is impossible. let's see:
75% base crit severity
25% crit severity from stealth
30% crit severity after every other critical (yes, consecutive criticals will just use up the buff without re-applying it). also, the 30% is calculated after actual severity so it's technically a 30% dps boost to the final damage number or at least i think it is.
15% crit severity from flurry
50% severity from vorpal
all that adds up to 165% or 195% crit severity on top of our combat advantage damage which is around like another 20% + however our feat adds into it. 18.5% tenacity, if it does work on execution, nerfs severity down to 134.475% or 158.925%. regardless, our actual potential damage modifiers r high even if tenacity affects us.
considering the base 10k that some have provided, those calcs should come out to either 24,842.63 if the 30% feat is a final modifer or 21,102.38 if not. with combat advantage, this probably goes up to 25,322.865 or 29,811.15
of course, all of those dps buffs being active at the same time is quite rare and those base 10k hits r only doable by power-stacking rogues probably.
...execution may be a nigh-guaranteed death, but more often than not a hunter will spam disruptive shot and guardians/gwf's spam prones which gives more than enough time to kill the rogue usually. main reason it actually connects is because people aren't paying attention to the rogue or it's done from stealth.
So I'm still waiting for someone to show me a living example of how "people who are paying attention" denies Shox and simply escapes from it in the middle of combat.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So I'm still waiting for someone to show me a living example of how "people who are paying attention" denies Shox and simply escapes from it in the middle of combat.
never said they escape from it. i said that it's actually very frequent for everyone to cc us if we attempt to use it and can potentially kill us b4 we get a chance to use it.
i have been delayed for over 10 seconds by hunters/gwf's/guardians simply because i kept trying to "get back up and use execution"
at least a few of those seconds could have been better spent using encounters instead >.>
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bonusitemMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 27Arc User
the only stun that works on bosses is the frost weapon enchant[
I'm talking about while leveling. Not 5 man dungeons. I have not run 5 man dungeons on this new rogue yet. Still, it was insanely easy mode. It was an eye opener.
execution may be a nigh-guaranteed death, but more often than not a hunter will spam disruptive shot and guardians/gwf's spam prones which gives more than enough time to kill the rogue usually. main reason it actually connects is because people aren't paying attention to the rogue or it's done from stealth.
#1. No one has shown any proof that SE can be dodged or escaped.
#2. You are talking about a 3-5 vs 1 situation, in which most of the time they wind up chasing around just looking for the invisible rogue. And exactly, he does it while he is invisible. My point exactly.
Furthermore, 3 or 4 players should always be able to kill 1 player. But not when they can't see them or they are completely invulnerable to damage (god mode).
we also don't have such convenient stuns. if u get hit by a dazing strike (about 9s cooldown) which is ridiculously easy to avoid then that's sad. every time that skill hit me only occurred because i have to deal with multiple people at once as a rogue/cleric and i still dodge it most of the time. smoke bomb (about 14s cooldown) will likely only catch rogues, gwf's, and guardians which all but guardians can deal with. dazes won't cancel a guardian's block so if he had it up prior to being dazed so it's not very effective. impact shot stun is purely from stealth and it's no longer a dps skill so meh. pretty sure guardians/gwf's have far less cooldowns on their prones than we do on stuns.
So because there are a very few counters, it's not convenient? How about add in invisible and ITC to that mix? Add in bleeds and poison that tick while the rogue is running around invisible.
Furthermore, "smoke bomb only catches rogues, gwf's, and guardians"? Not only is that most of the population, but how about cleric healers or CWs on a node? And then don't forget invisible and ITC.
we hated the last patch because we lost 1 of our main dps skills
And rogues are the most OP class by far in PvP. With the nerf to healing and regen, rogues can whittle away a target's health down to half using bilethorn while invisible and then just SE.
as for our daily, u r talking about rare instances of high damage that has not been backed by proof. also, it's not purely the daily doing all that damage as that is impossible.
Here it is again. There is a ton of proof in this thread. There are videos, live feeds, image captures, and testimonies from reliable top players (some being rogues themselves). How much more proof do you want? I'm sure the devs can do a database search and see the accurate numbers for themselves.
And to be clear, I'm not asking to nerf the other aspect of rogues. Only saying that adding a "I win" one shot button into that whole mix is insane and will diminish the player base in PvP. Shocking execution is ridiculously over powered and rogues know this.
#1. No one has shown any proof that SE can be dodged or escaped.
#2. You are talking about a 3-5 vs 1 situation, in which most of the time they wind up chasing around just looking for the invisible rogue. And exactly, he does it while he is invisible. My point exactly.
Furthermore, 3 or 4 players should always be able to kill 1 player. But not when they can't see them or they are completely invulnerable to damage (god mode).
I was talking about perma-stealth in my post. In PvP, it's always a perma-stealth or at least semi-perma.
so your real issue is permas and not our daily? we can all agree that perma is overpowered and there is no denying that, but don't forget that the non-permas that some of us are and everyone wants us to become are gonna be focus-fired ALL THE TIME. if a rogue can't handle 2-3 vs 1 then the rogue is simply not gonna do much in pvp as that's what all non-permas deal with.
So because there are a very few counters, it's not convenient? How about add in invisible and ITC to that mix? Add in bleeds and poison that tick while the rogue is running around invisible.
Furthermore, "smoke bomb only catches rogues, gwf's, and guardians"? Not only is that most of the population, but how about cleric healers or CWs on a node? And then don't forget invisible and ITC.
counters? i meant that our stuns r almost useless as no ranged class is gonna get hit by dazing or smoke bomb. clerics either dodge, which some specs can do a lot, or they just walk out in 2 seconds while u r incapable of meleeing a moving target. also, rogues/gwf's have immunity and guardians can keep blocking while dazed so it's pointless on them. i actually laugh when rogues try to use it on me as it's really just gonna make me use ITC while i continue killing a cleric or whatever and ignore the rogue until i am ready to kill him.
also, i have never seen a wizard sit on a node. if they do, they will die in seconds as they lack the tankiness to stand there with us melees.
And rogues are the most OP class by far in PvP. With the nerf to healing and regen, rogues can whittle away a target's health down to half using bilethorn while invisible and then just SE.
Here it is again. There is a ton of proof in this thread. There are videos, live feeds, image captures, and testimonies from reliable top players (some being rogues themselves). How much more proof do you want? I'm sure the devs can do a database search and see the accurate numbers for themselves.
And to be clear, I'm not asking to nerf the other aspect of rogues. Only saying that adding a "I win" one shot button into that whole mix is insane and will diminish the player base in PvP. Shocking execution is ridiculously over powered and rogues know this.
yeah, there is tons of proof of videos on debuffed targets to boost the dps to insanely high levels. i think only persephone provided proof on a non-debuffed target.
and it doesn't always work out to an "I Win" button if the opposing team is smart enough to keep the rogue down 1st. permas actually have the highest success rate since there is no anticipating it.
i don't mind if it can be dodged as it's true purpose is to kill gwfs whom are incapable of dodging. it's a waste on anyone else as whirlwind of blades tends to be far more effective when dealing with multiple people.
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thats cool ty
Finally somebody who has something to put on the table regarding 'dodging' the 'undodgeable' lol.
I've got one WK TR so I can test VP and DS out if their i-frames (dodge frames or whatever their called in this game) can indeed reliably dodge SE with sufficient timing. I've been trying to dodge it using Bloodbath but haven't been successful as of yet. Unfortunately I don't have an HR with Fox' Cunning but hopefully with this information somebody that runs with it (every HR lol) can do a test too.
Reflexes and skill counters always matter. One only has himself to blame if something goes wrong. Good thing WKs slot VP in PvP so that only leaves DS as a non-optimal skill choice for countering.
Latency is a different matter but at the very least it'd be like "ah, if it weren't for that lag I would've dodged that" sort of thing more akin to attributing loss due to luck.
Agreed, skill counters should always be saved for those specific circumstances and wasting them is obviously the same as getting hit by the prone chain in the first place, one only has himself to blame.
So uh, by any class, you mean this includes GWFs and DCs right?
Your countermeasures (plus other stuff) :
TRs - VP and DS (have yet to test out)
HRs - Marauder and Fox (have yet to test out)
GFs - I would assume one simply blocks lol
CWs - Entangling, Repel or OF to interrupt mid-cast (Personal speculation, haven't actually seen it but it'd be cool though Entangling would need to be cast at the same time if it actually works against it)
That leaves us with :
GWFs - no idea
DCs - no idea
Well my point still stands, All non-dodgeable skills should be made dodgeable. No need for nerfs in damage yadah yadah. Period.
And by dodgeable, I mean using 'shift + directional key' to 'dodge'. GWFs have the short end of the stick though, what with being the only class without an active means of 'dodging' or 'blocking' in a supposedly action based combat system... lol (and no, turning unstoppable doesn't count since it is not a reliable way of mitigating SE as of now)
PS. If the Devs ever decide to totally remove the auto-targeting / lock-on system in this game, problems like this would be solved instantly. Ah, that would be really nice... though people who lack the skill to aim or time moves so they'd actually be able to hit would flood the forums and in-game chat like a second coming of the great flood... LOL
1. Execution while in stealth for Combat Advantage bonus
2. Execution while in stealth for 25% more critical severity
3. Execution after a successful crit for 30% of your base critical severity
A bunch of other situational bonuses that grants the TR critical severity.
Thank you for posting these results. I'd say the figures you got are about what I see when playing. Judging by these numbers SE doesn't need any changing. As far as I can see it's WAI.
Obviously other feats and powers may affect the amount of damage, but in order to get up to the 25k+ damage being reported you would need an additional 150% crit severity. Kind of unlikely even with a p.vorp.
I realise your testing isn't conclusive, but I would point out that despite all the claims of being one-shotted from 80% that have been flying about of late nobody has posted any actual proof of this. Yours is about the only data that anyone's put up and it's well below the 22-24k you were talking about in your earlier posts.
That's a long winded way of saying;
"I can talk a heap oh shi*, but it doesn't work in real life"
How about this one if we're gonna keep talking bollocks?
Ofcourse, I don't need to prove this. I can just spew it on the forums as something that works well.
:rolleyes:
So, come on. I dare you. I dare all the "SE is not a problem. It is dodgeable and escapable" crowd to go on and prove the cockamimy claims that SE is defenseable against in a non-staged, non-premeditated, actual combat situation where a MI TR closes in and activates it, and then you happen to simply react and escape/prevent from getting hit.
Ofcourse, normally I'd also mention the person to honestly log how many times they failed in doing it, since something that works -- let's say -- only once out of one hundred attemots can hardly be considered a 'solution', but in this case I'll just be content with seeing with my own eyes that one instance. I mean, we have MI TRs dime a dozen in PvP. SE happens every day, every match, so I'm sure anyone can come up with a vid of it happening if its so easy to do.
....
No proof?
Then stop pretending undodgeable powers aren't a problem in PvP. We squishies have all fought against Ice Knives in their prime when it used to hit a lot harder. Nobody really brought it up as a problem because Ice Knives were within bounds of a normal power. It has the ching-ching audible telegraph/warning which you could react to and dodge. It needs the CW to activate it under certainty that it will be hit. Same with any dailies that have high damage. Heck, even Bloodbath you're able to slip away from more than half its damage if you dodge two times during its duration.
I couldn't care less if Shox hits for 10k, 15k, heck even 150k damage. As long as it becomes fully dodgeable.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
this only affects a non-crit strike, so wouldn't boost a critting SE hit.
...never mind. It already hits for 150k.
http://youtu.be/PW1k8OXBbHQ
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
using a skill to evade it DOES NOT mean that is dodging you are evading it, however by using those other skills, I believe the SE is still up for the TR and if it is up, you are just delaying the inevitable
There's already another vid somewhere in the first few pages showcasing a higher damage done barring the fact that both of these ofcourse are staged.
Well, Shocking Execution's damage for the average TRs should really be doing respectable damage. I even think they should buff the damage lol. The name itself, Shocking Execution, should instill shock and it is an execution afterall.
Yeah, well, I'm not "out to nerf TRs or something". It's just that this skill is acting kinda strangely sometimes, maybe we should see what exactly is up with it
Previous numbers (22-24K on almost full HP) were from a different test with a TR that had Perfect Vorpal. In pure 1vs1 testing conditions, 24K was the most I've been hit with. His non crits were around 10K.
These 2 TRs I am talking about have VERY different builds. The P/Vorpal guy runs a Deflect build of sorts, while the P/Bile guy runs pretty much the classical semiperma/ITC thing. The difference between their SE numbers is quite significant, pretty much double the damage for the Deflect/P.Vorpal build.
Now, in a random match before I did any testing match, while being alone 1vs1 with a TR on point, he SEed me for 30K after just the usual CoS spam TRs do. That was all the damage I too and it didn't take more then 4K HP from my 35. This is the most I've been hit with SE while high at HP. Happened only once. I really dunno why it hit so hard, maybe it had full R10s, maybe full PvE build, maybe he drank all the elixirs in the AH - I really didn't check.
All in all, this skill acts quite curiously and I will try to test it a few more times if given the opportunity and post results.
Great. So I'll change my TR's name to "Oneshot", and the developers will allow me to one-shot my opponents?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Haha, well that's what we all called the AWP in Counterstrike, "Oneshot", since it did kill peeps with just one shot 99% of the time.
Though I'd rather change my TR's name to "Immortal" so I'll be able to facetank anything lol.
But seriously, a rework of all existing dailies (buff all damages to 'daily tier') as to make a clear distinction to their damage compared to encounters and at-wills would be nice. And ofcourse, not to sound like a broken record or something (lol), rework all at-wills, encounters, dailies to be dodgeable and add i-frames to specific skills to add utility. And most of all... a rework of the combat system which would mean taking the existing lock-on mechanism and all the red tell-marks / signs that mobs, bosses, and player skills telegraph and removing them entirely. This would absolutely make the game a hundred times more engaging, skill-based, and most of all - fun. (this paragraph is offtopic... but yeah lol)
No, they are not "staged". You have no idea what you are talking about.
Another thing, all the rogues that are calling out "I want video proof!". Whey you show them the video proof, they just claim it's "staged".
I'm sorry, I musta missed it. Please point me to the vid proof of someone actively defending himself against SE, so I can observe how people are dodging something that is physically impossible to dodge.
...did I mention Shox even kills Bloodbath, a power that turns your TR invincible to safely land attacks in the midst of AoE attacks?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Check the post again.
bonusitem was referring to the "I want video proof of SE's OP damage" thingy and obviously not the videos of anyone dodging SE.
There has been no videos posted showing anyone evading SE. And besides, if anybody does post a video of a 'staged' method of dodging SE, it would still be proof that it is dodgeable (though it would most likely be a method that does not involve the standard dodging mechanic and therefore wouldn't be applicable to all classes).
You should hear the QQ in voicechat from the very Shocking Exec. using TRs when they get shocked themselves
Quite self-explanatory what most TRs actually think about it.
Same QQ goes for Emblems (after they just used theirs...), GWFs (even as they run with 1-2 most times), permas (even as they are full fotm permaITC themselves) and so on. Even CWs seem to be OP to some people if they dare land a shard combo or even jump around too much...
"If I use OP stuff, it's OK".
"If this other guy uses it against me, he has nolife, he's a creditcardwarrior, he has no skills, his healer/emblem saves him or I would've killed him, he's a coward running for pots, he uses game bugs, he has a glitched race/char/build" and I can go on and on.
Cowards running for pots are annoying. Not only because they deny me my rightful kill, but because they are usually hurting their own team in the process just so they can look good on a kill board. There are exceptions were running and grabbing a pot is better for your team than dieing, but the guys that do it tactically aren't the ones I am referring to.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
1. I would be leaving a teammate to die.
2. I have my healing artifact off cooldown.
If there's two of you, I'd kill the weaker one before retreating, healing up, and coming back to kill you too. If we're doing 1v1 near a potion area, I'd keep my eye on it, grab it first just so you don't get it. It's not like I could tell you in battle "hey we're not grabbing pots, alright?"
I think every soft class deserves a pass from running to a potion now and then (CW/HR/TR)... It just becomes ludicrous O.O moment when the DC or GWF does it. You know you agree xD
I disagree. Since the latest nerf patch, GWFs do not heal like they used to by any stretch. Regen, Unstoppable healing, and artifacts don't do much at all - not even emblems since good teams will stop hitting you.
Have you played a GWF recently? There are times where I have to grab a health potion.
But for some reason, so many rogues just go invisible at 10% health and run away to get a health pot every time at the detriment of their own team. Doesn't matter if they are fighting their home point or if it costs the game, they can't stand to think that they might have a death on the leader board.
So I made a rogue just to see what it was like... and my expectation of EZ mode was not even close. It is so ridiculous EZ mode, that it's a joke. Wow. When I fought bosses, I just stunned them and didn't even get hit one time before they were dead in like 5 seconds. Most of the time, at-wills just killed everything in 2 or 3 shots.
So I look up the best build out there:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?596611-Snow-Perma-Stealth-build-%28PvP%29
And if you look, it just goes into a jerkface troll of nasty insults and "you stole my rogue build" and "I am better than you - 1vs1 me!" for 14 pages... just classic rogue all over it.
Any character that has an "I win" button (Shocking Execution) that kills almost anything at 50% health, invisible (and can do extra damage while invisible), god mode invulnerable (ITC), immune to all CCs with their at-will, and can stun or lock you out of all your abilities every few seconds and complains that they are going to quit the game because they aren't op enough, is exactly the EZ mode insanity I see from most rogues.
You know why rogues hated the last patch? Because they couldn't stealth and hide behind a column to regen all their health back to full. So many of them threatened to quit instead of actually playing the game using skill.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?624451-Perma-Stealth-Feedback-Discussion
Shocking execution is, by far, the most OP daily in the whole game... and it's not dodgable, ignores all mitigation, ignores Tenacity, and can be delivered while invisible. It has taken my 40k health down from 80% to 5% in one single shot with no other player around - many times. It needs a nerf. It's way over the top. Any argument against this is insane.
execution may be a nigh-guaranteed death, but more often than not a hunter will spam disruptive shot and guardians/gwf's spam prones which gives more than enough time to kill the rogue usually. main reason it actually connects is because people aren't paying attention to the rogue or it's done from stealth.
a rogue's god-mode is almost purely exclusive to perma's as combat rogues rarely use that stealth bonus. also, i still think high-end gwf's r far more god-mode than a 4 sec ability because the good gwf's simply don't die except by a rogue.
as for duelist flurry........u do know that's rarely reliable? immunity kicks in on the 3rd hit and can easily be negated by walking away from the 1st 2 hits or cc'ing us then.
we also don't have such convenient stuns. if u get hit by a dazing strike (about 9s cooldown) which is ridiculously easy to avoid then that's sad. every time that skill hit me only occurred because i have to deal with multiple people at once as a rogue/cleric and i still dodge it most of the time. smoke bomb (about 14s cooldown) will likely only catch rogues, gwf's, and guardians which all but guardians can deal with. dazes won't cancel a guardian's block so if he had it up prior to being dazed so it's not very effective. impact shot stun is purely from stealth and it's no longer a dps skill so meh. pretty sure guardians/gwf's have far less cooldowns on their prones than we do on stuns.
we hated the last patch because we lost 1 of our main dps skills, which prior to patch was crucial in actually killing wizards/hunters. however, tenacity over-nerfed wizards cc and gwf's crying got roots nerfed as well so it kinda canceled out the need of a ranged dps skill. before the patch, a single wizard could push me half-way across the map and i had to either choose between dying by attempting to run after them or running to rebuild my stealth meter for another lashing. recently got knocked back like 3 steps from a wizards and i was kinda shocked that this is what became of their repel that we dreaded. y need pre-patch impact shot if no ranged class can actually escape our melee range?
as for our daily, u r talking about rare instances of high damage that has not been backed by proof. also, it's not purely the daily doing all that damage as that is impossible. let's see:
all that adds up to 165% or 195% crit severity on top of our combat advantage damage which is around like another 20% + however our feat adds into it. 18.5% tenacity, if it does work on execution, nerfs severity down to 134.475% or 158.925%. regardless, our actual potential damage modifiers r high even if tenacity affects us.
considering the base 10k that some have provided, those calcs should come out to either 24,842.63 if the 30% feat is a final modifer or 21,102.38 if not. with combat advantage, this probably goes up to 25,322.865 or 29,811.15
of course, all of those dps buffs being active at the same time is quite rare and those base 10k hits r only doable by power-stacking rogues probably.
So I'm still waiting for someone to show me a living example of how "people who are paying attention" denies Shox and simply escapes from it in the middle of combat.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
never said they escape from it. i said that it's actually very frequent for everyone to cc us if we attempt to use it and can potentially kill us b4 we get a chance to use it.
i have been delayed for over 10 seconds by hunters/gwf's/guardians simply because i kept trying to "get back up and use execution"
at least a few of those seconds could have been better spent using encounters instead >.>
I'm talking about while leveling. Not 5 man dungeons. I have not run 5 man dungeons on this new rogue yet. Still, it was insanely easy mode. It was an eye opener.
#1. No one has shown any proof that SE can be dodged or escaped.
#2. You are talking about a 3-5 vs 1 situation, in which most of the time they wind up chasing around just looking for the invisible rogue. And exactly, he does it while he is invisible. My point exactly.
Furthermore, 3 or 4 players should always be able to kill 1 player. But not when they can't see them or they are completely invulnerable to damage (god mode).
I was talking about perma-stealth in my post. In PvP, it's always a perma-stealth or at least semi-perma.
So because there are a very few counters, it's not convenient? How about add in invisible and ITC to that mix? Add in bleeds and poison that tick while the rogue is running around invisible.
Furthermore, "smoke bomb only catches rogues, gwf's, and guardians"? Not only is that most of the population, but how about cleric healers or CWs on a node? And then don't forget invisible and ITC.
And rogues are the most OP class by far in PvP. With the nerf to healing and regen, rogues can whittle away a target's health down to half using bilethorn while invisible and then just SE.
Here it is again. There is a ton of proof in this thread. There are videos, live feeds, image captures, and testimonies from reliable top players (some being rogues themselves). How much more proof do you want? I'm sure the devs can do a database search and see the accurate numbers for themselves.
And to be clear, I'm not asking to nerf the other aspect of rogues. Only saying that adding a "I win" one shot button into that whole mix is insane and will diminish the player base in PvP. Shocking execution is ridiculously over powered and rogues know this.
counters? i meant that our stuns r almost useless as no ranged class is gonna get hit by dazing or smoke bomb. clerics either dodge, which some specs can do a lot, or they just walk out in 2 seconds while u r incapable of meleeing a moving target. also, rogues/gwf's have immunity and guardians can keep blocking while dazed so it's pointless on them. i actually laugh when rogues try to use it on me as it's really just gonna make me use ITC while i continue killing a cleric or whatever and ignore the rogue until i am ready to kill him.
also, i have never seen a wizard sit on a node. if they do, they will die in seconds as they lack the tankiness to stand there with us melees.
again, your issue is permas
yeah, there is tons of proof of videos on debuffed targets to boost the dps to insanely high levels. i think only persephone provided proof on a non-debuffed target.
and it doesn't always work out to an "I Win" button if the opposing team is smart enough to keep the rogue down 1st. permas actually have the highest success rate since there is no anticipating it.
i don't mind if it can be dodged as it's true purpose is to kill gwfs whom are incapable of dodging. it's a waste on anyone else as whirlwind of blades tends to be far more effective when dealing with multiple people.