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Race Change Thread - Yes, Another Request
vaerth
Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
I have played this game for sometime now and love it. I have run into something I did not know before however yesterday. I was unaware that their was a Moon Elf race, and I have a wood elf at level 45 now. I would love to play as a moon elf, and buy the Knight of the Feywild. But i am not starting over the same class (only on I like is Wizard, tried all 6) and spending the diamonds and Zen all over again when I should have the option to just pay to swap races.
On top of that, I RP a wizard Moon Elf on table top D&D. I have a name for my current character I do not want to have to change. Option is keep the name for the new character by deleting current wizard or making a new name. All this would just be much easier if I could PAY to switch races.
When I started this game, I did not know you could get other races by paying. I am fine with buying races that require it, but how would a new player have know what they can get jumping into a new game like that? I am fully aware the anti race changers will be here soon after the post. I am excited to see what reasons people have against it. Because in my eyes, why would anyone have an issue with it? Crypic makes money, people can change things they want to change, and the game is being funded for more content. Win for everyone, even those who do not use the feature.
For those who oppose it, please state a VALID reason why you think this would affect YOUR gameplay in any negative manner (or anyone gameplay for that matter). What argument do you have to claim this would not be a good feature to add?
On top of that, I RP a wizard Moon Elf on table top D&D. I have a name for my current character I do not want to have to change. Option is keep the name for the new character by deleting current wizard or making a new name. All this would just be much easier if I could PAY to switch races.
When I started this game, I did not know you could get other races by paying. I am fine with buying races that require it, but how would a new player have know what they can get jumping into a new game like that? I am fully aware the anti race changers will be here soon after the post. I am excited to see what reasons people have against it. Because in my eyes, why would anyone have an issue with it? Crypic makes money, people can change things they want to change, and the game is being funded for more content. Win for everyone, even those who do not use the feature.
For those who oppose it, please state a VALID reason why you think this would affect YOUR gameplay in any negative manner (or anyone gameplay for that matter). What argument do you have to claim this would not be a good feature to add?
Post edited by vaerth on
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Quite badly, given that both the Drow races are broken, and have been for as long as they have been in the game- they can actually weaken friendlies.
Quite badly, given the terrible advice about desirability of stats "advice" that the game gives you during character creation.
If it's "simply not done", nor is having a healer who has a good chance to reduce the defence of anyone she heals.
And certainly not the most financially successful MMO of all time:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Race_Change_service
So are you saying you knew this and deliberately lied in your first post, then? That certainly makes people who oppose race change seem unbiased and rational...
Yes, it is. The Dungeons & Dragons which allows race changes through Reincarnation, Wish spells, intervention of higher/lower powers, etc...
Another line that is supposed to make people who oppose race change seem unbiased and rational?
It makes perfect sense to anyone with a clue about the game. It's called "a bug". The phrase "given that both the Drow races are broken, and have been for as long as they have been in the game" should have made it abundantly clear to almost anyone joining the discussion late without an apparent grasp of current mechanics. Almost anyone.
However, thanks for your searing insight, it has been a blast. I can't wait for your next instructive sally.
"that game has it"
"NW is not that game so deal with it"
flawless logic XD
Since you jumped all over another poster's misinformation, allow me to point out the flaws with yours here. Neverwinter is based on 4th edition D&D ruleset. Neither the wish spell nor the reincarnation spell exist in 4th edition. Wish, in particular, was always seen as problematic, and most DMs would do their best to make it come back to haunt you in some way. As for reincarnation, you did not get to choose the race you came back as, it was random. So if reincarnation scrolls were offered, your new race would have to be randomly selected to keep with canon. I doubt many people would buy those.
Personally, I'm against race changes on principal. An RPG should have at least some level of immersion -- finding the warrior who was a dwarf yesterday is inexplicably a half-orc today goes against that principal. The constant shuffle of min-maxing-flavor-of-the-month-maximum-optimization is the bane of rpgs, IMHO, and selling race change tokens just feeds that whole mindset. Would I be crushed if the feature were added? No, I'd shake my head and shrug. Do I think it in any way would improve the game? Absolutley not.
Didn't realise about wish changes as I played a while back.
Even in that case, reincarnation still works to change race so it is a possibility. And there are people who would spend money on it even if it was random. Intervention of Lower/Higher powers is entirely up to the DM fiat just like the current 'respeccing option' and here Cryptic takes that role.
Finally 'immersion' in an MMO is very different to immersion in a P&P game. Remember the last time your P&P DM made you run exactly the same set of quests and Lairs 30+ times? I don't, but other people's experience may differ I guess.....
I'm well aware of the differences between MMOs and P&P; however, just because concessions are made in some areas doesn't mean we have to give up on the idea of immersion entirely. As far as respeccing vs race change -- it takes a great deal less "suspension of disbelief" to accept someone has retrained and learned new skills than that someone magically woke up an entirely different race.
As for reincarnation, keep in mind that many of the options you could come back as were non-playable creatures such as a fox or deer. So you buy a reincarnation scroll, get a bad roll of the RNG and "sorry, your character is now wandering the woods looking for nuts and berries, please reroll".
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, as neither of us is going to convert the other. I just wanted to post some reasons why some of us might be against race changes (as the OP indicated).
there have been many discussions on this in comparison to PnP D&D vs MMO D&D and concessions made, etc. some concessions are obviously okay per PWE's agreements with WotC but since race changes are a rare option within the D&D rules itself, it's likely that WotC would not be okay with allowing this kind of MMO concession.
I don't know why some people bring Lore in here, to me a race change has nothing to do with Lore, is like a new start, not like your char actually changed to a new race, does a retrain token has a lore backup? to me it's just a typical MMO service, nothing to do with the game lore.
They allowed it for the other D&D MMO via :
https://www.ddo.com/en/game/game-guides/general-reincarnation-guide
so I can't see why WOTC should have any reason forbid it here....
the reincarnation processes in DDO follow PnP D&D rules and they have multiple options because there are different reasons as to why you may want to take the reincarnation plunge, kelemvor help you. would you still want a race change if you had to go back to level 1? if there was a quest that you had to take in order to achieve the race change? what most people are asking for when they ask for a race change is a single token that changes your race... boom... you're now a halfling. and that's without even considering the whys and hows of that change within the world of neverwinter.
what is more likely to happen is race bonuses will get an overhaul.
Sure if that was the only option. Even if it takes what 20 to 30 hours for an experienced player to get to cap, people have put hundreds if not thousands of hours into their characters.
Leveling isn't an issue, gearing doesn't take that long, but doing the solo campaigns for boons and leveling artifacts can take MONTHS. Some people can't be motivated to do this, and if their character isn't up to their standards, they may just be deterred to play.
As for breaking immersion? How does a person whose character you don't know, and probably never will know changing in a virtual environment affect your fun? There are already respec options, appearance and name changes. I can go from a white male to a black female. If you wanted to truly immerse yourself in this world, you would be up in arms over these.
Regardless, it makes players happy, makes PWE money. Win/Win
when you sit down to watch a movie, for you to enjoy that film, you have to buy into it. if you can't suspend your disbelief for one second that snakes can talk or that a boy can fly or that compasses can point to other things than magnetic north, then the whole thing is ruined. you could try to make concessions for some things but overall, it's not a balanced immersion into that world.
if there was a doorway to zap you to tatooine tomorrow, you would be entering into a world with set rules and you would have to accept these rules for what they are.
and creating a virtual world as they do in MMORPGs, you have the same thing. there are concessions that have to be made since it is a virtual world and it doesn't function in the same way as a PnP role playing game. the world, of course, needs to be able to allow for more content but in a believable way. you can't just add microwave ovens and expect this to be an acceptable change. even if some people would never use microwave ovens in-game, they all of a sudden exist! why? where did they come from? is moradin angry with the dwarfs? and interacting with people that use microwave ovens... do they act strangely? does he look a little greener than usual? how can they cook meals so fast?!?
of course, people that want the ability to change races are willing to make whatever concessions are needed at the cost of the overall immersion of the entire game. the devs have to take in consideration how much something like this would affect the overall game and the community. it's not so much a matter of money-making. if that were the case, they could put a package in the zen store that includes top gear and enchants and they know people would buy it. but that's not what they want for neverwinter.
I completely agree with this, immersion can be broken in many other ways. Do you really recall all of the handles from people you come across? Because that's the only other thing you can't change (or can you?) And on top of that, the chance you fight against the same player in a short amount of time is nihil.
I don't really mind having to start a new character when I'm not happy with my current one, IF that current one didn't make a lot of progress yet. I've actually done this. But my older characters made so much progress, some have 4 professions at level 20 (including leadership which takes forever), crafted mainhands, artefacts, boons etc. I only have the choise to lose months of progression to get the same advantages as people who happened to be lucky enough to roll the ideal race from the start, or be disadvantaged forever.
I will point out 1 argument against it, pvp will most likely be crowded with only 2-3 races, and anyone that plays a different race will probably be a newbe or pve toon. I don't believe the racial's will ever be balanced, even if they would change them.
Ok, say you know my character, Silverjon, and that he's a wood elf, but I decided to remake him into a more optimal race for a TR. Other players who know Silverjon wold be entirely justified in going "uh, what the heck happened?" The thing is... that would never happen, because head-canon Silverjon is a wood elf, whether that's optimal or not.
People who are devout min-maxers are very seldom going to have any meaningful interaction with people who are devout roleplayers. These are very different gaming styles, and while Neverwinter offers an environment in which both can happen, it's more parallel than intersecting.
There's not a whole lot of reason why anyone would know that the Erik Silverkin they just passed in PE was a half-elf yesterday and is human today, but they're absolutely sure it's the same guy. Not in-character at any rate. Kinda have to look a the @handle to know for sure, and I don't think FR lore takes @handles into account.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I love watching non-D&D Veterans getting schooled by D&D Veterans.
But yes, Dungeons and Dragon's have always had ways of allowing the Dungeon Master to give options to their table-top players the ability to opt for Race-changes. (Of course, not always in the most desirable of ways, haha)
So with that knowledge in hand, it's a valid plea to the developers, and can be utilized in a lore-friendly fashion.
Sadly I am a bit too veteran as the last time I played P&P the Wish spell was still there. Apparently it was removed in 4th Edition.
Then again, from what I hear it may not be a bad thing that I missed 4th Ed.....
We could allow ppl to choose both a race visual *and* a race mechanic?...
As I see it, it would make both camps happy?
The way I see it , there is no reason why an ugly elf with huge mussles shouldn't exist?
My concern with race changes is that suddenly all wizards would be of the same race (the optimal one?), and again I think (at least to some degree) my suggestion would prevent that.
I'm not a D&D expert, but I don't think Faerie Fire is meant to proc and weaken allies healed by a drow cleric... Now, if there were alignments and you choose evil or chaotic, maybe they could argue that lore supports that. But there aren't, so that's a moot point.
There's also Bloodhunt that doesn't stack with Tempest Magic...
My point is, if bugs were fixed, you know what you're getting into and should stick with it or reroll.
A good idea but I am pretty sure it goes against the way AD&D tends to work where different races in the game are differentiated by having different bonuses.
4th Edition is when Dungeons & Dragons became waaaay too mainstream for it's own good, and introduced a lot more action and less Role-playing.
Then of course, we have the 5th Edition coming out this Summer.... Or what it is also refereed to as "Dungeons & Dragons NEXT" (throwsupinmouth)
I really miss 2nd and 3rd Editions...
What else is there for me to say?
Actually... :P
About immersion.
There is none for me. I log in kill some 0100100011001 bits translated on my screen in fey critters, get my arcane sparks, go get an adamantine gauntlet, run the same lair for the billionth time to get 2 peridots, then kill people in PvP and get killed by them in PvP. I might talk with some, rage a bit at others.
Immersion?
Lol.
This is not a true RPG, this is just some thematic MMO with good action combat. True RPGs like Dragon Age, Baldur's Gate, Witcher, Mass Effect... they have immersion, yes. There you CARE about stuff.
I care about almost nothing but AD here, and having fun in PvP.
Zero (0) Immersion.
As far as reading or doing your homework, the game is f2p. A new player may look at the races and should make an informed decision but they probably arent going to read contents of $60 packages. I mean, that is kind of the point of an f2p mmo... not paying that initial chunk of money. Maybe investing in the game later if you enjoy it, sure. I know I have. I would like to point out, the OP is asking about a race only available for purchase, and not by itself, but in a package deal. It's the same thing that I was searching that lead me here. As for stat bonuses... I don't really care about them.
You can change race in D&D, its called WISH. In fact there is MORE reason to allow it (lore wise) in D&D than WoW.