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*NEW* The SIMPLE fix for "TR STEALTH" - no true nerf needed!!!
ayroux
Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
I have been following this discussion pretty closely and while I have played a TR pretty extensively myself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Nq7uJSe1k) I have not kept up my TR when artifacts (Mod 2) came into the picture so my current experience is more from someone who constantly plays against TRs on my GWF and as a GF. That said, my entire goal is balance not "nerfs" and I think there is no "nerf" needed to the class but slight changes would really balance it well.
THE FIX FOR STEALTH -
CHANGE the class feature "Sneak Attack" do to what the 4e rules say: Sneak attack makes you deal more damage.
"Once per turn, when a rogue with the Sneak Attack class feature attacks, the attack deals extra damage. The amount of extra damage is determined by the rogue's level"
So why does it give run speed? This is PART of the issue with TRs is NOT that they can attack in stealth but that they can run SO much faster than any class WHILE in stealth... You dont need to nerf stealth, its the class features that need adjusting. If you changed this feature TRs would complain a little less about not dealing enough damage, and less people would complain about the perma TR in PVP running around and not being able to be hit...
The mobility is the key, not the stealth mechanic itself...
This sounds alot like First Strike, however I think just changing it to make "your encounter powers deal 2/4/6% more damage" would suffice well. This would provide nice incentive to use encounters - since they get the damage boost, rather than stealth refill things like Shadow Strike or Bait and Switch. So basically its the "endless assault" feat but an additional class feature to even further your damage if needed.
ADDITIONAL RECOMMENDATIONS:
- Lashing Blade: Change the "stealth bonus" from "Guaranteed to crit" to "50% reduced CD". Then also change the attack to dealing 50% of its current damage upfront and 50% DOT for 5 seconds(consider that in light of the profound 7.5% buff along with the *NEW* Sneak Attack Feature. This provides more DPS while less burst damage along with the encounter being useful again in PVP and PVE with the reduced CD.
- Smoke Bomb: Change the "stealth bonus" from "now adds a slow affect" to something LIKE "Enemies affected by smoke bomb have 10% less Damage Resist" --- OR --- "Enemies now take damage per second if affected by smoke bomb" This provides more utility to encounters both in pvp and pve. (Imagine Smoke Bomb + POTB for AOE)
- Shadow Strike: Should NOT refill stealth if the strike is dodged. Plain and Simple.
- Impact Shot: Remove the "increased damage based on charges" and just give it TWO charges (still no charges consumed while in stealth). Truth be told, this encounter is messed up because your tooltip damage DROPS if you stealth, meaning the math is messing up somewhere... Fixing this would make it a viable encounter again, where as its not right now.
- Shocking Execution: I really dont think this ability needs much re-work. I think it ignoring DR is cool. I would just like to see the "bonus damage" not kick in until around the 35% HP mark. As this truly is supposed to be an "execute". (FYI, its not posted yet that I know of, but there is a SS/video of a TR doing 149k SE crit just a few days ago).
These changes would give TRs ALOT of viable builds while not actually flat out "nerfing" them. The "Perma" build will be less effective due to the run speed nerf. The "DPS TR" will be more effective due to the new sneak attack along with the changes to lashing/impact/SB.
raise your hand if you would like to see TRs dealing good damage again and not being FORCED to hide 24/7 in stealth or ITC.
THE FIX FOR STEALTH -
CHANGE the class feature "Sneak Attack" do to what the 4e rules say: Sneak attack makes you deal more damage.
"Once per turn, when a rogue with the Sneak Attack class feature attacks, the attack deals extra damage. The amount of extra damage is determined by the rogue's level"
So why does it give run speed? This is PART of the issue with TRs is NOT that they can attack in stealth but that they can run SO much faster than any class WHILE in stealth... You dont need to nerf stealth, its the class features that need adjusting. If you changed this feature TRs would complain a little less about not dealing enough damage, and less people would complain about the perma TR in PVP running around and not being able to be hit...
The mobility is the key, not the stealth mechanic itself...
This sounds alot like First Strike, however I think just changing it to make "your encounter powers deal 2/4/6% more damage" would suffice well. This would provide nice incentive to use encounters - since they get the damage boost, rather than stealth refill things like Shadow Strike or Bait and Switch. So basically its the "endless assault" feat but an additional class feature to even further your damage if needed.
ADDITIONAL RECOMMENDATIONS:
- Lashing Blade: Change the "stealth bonus" from "Guaranteed to crit" to "50% reduced CD". Then also change the attack to dealing 50% of its current damage upfront and 50% DOT for 5 seconds(consider that in light of the profound 7.5% buff along with the *NEW* Sneak Attack Feature. This provides more DPS while less burst damage along with the encounter being useful again in PVP and PVE with the reduced CD.
- Smoke Bomb: Change the "stealth bonus" from "now adds a slow affect" to something LIKE "Enemies affected by smoke bomb have 10% less Damage Resist" --- OR --- "Enemies now take damage per second if affected by smoke bomb" This provides more utility to encounters both in pvp and pve. (Imagine Smoke Bomb + POTB for AOE)
- Shadow Strike: Should NOT refill stealth if the strike is dodged. Plain and Simple.
- Impact Shot: Remove the "increased damage based on charges" and just give it TWO charges (still no charges consumed while in stealth). Truth be told, this encounter is messed up because your tooltip damage DROPS if you stealth, meaning the math is messing up somewhere... Fixing this would make it a viable encounter again, where as its not right now.
- Shocking Execution: I really dont think this ability needs much re-work. I think it ignoring DR is cool. I would just like to see the "bonus damage" not kick in until around the 35% HP mark. As this truly is supposed to be an "execute". (FYI, its not posted yet that I know of, but there is a SS/video of a TR doing 149k SE crit just a few days ago).
These changes would give TRs ALOT of viable builds while not actually flat out "nerfing" them. The "Perma" build will be less effective due to the run speed nerf. The "DPS TR" will be more effective due to the new sneak attack along with the changes to lashing/impact/SB.
raise your hand if you would like to see TRs dealing good damage again and not being FORCED to hide 24/7 in stealth or ITC.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
However:
As far as smoke bomb, I know some non-stealth based TRs who rely on the slow effect from smoke bomb after using SS. I don't believe the move should be changed.
As far as movement speed, I agree it may be a bit much.
As far as shadow strike, it is a pure utility move and has a noticeable cast animation. I don't believe this would be a good idea unless something like a large damage buff were added to the move to compensate.
I do agree that damage buffs need to happen if significant stealth nerfs happen though. That is something I believe everyone can agree on at this point.
I like your ideas, I'd have no problem sacrificing some speed if I could be more useful in pve.
I appreciate what you are trying to do, but my TR has no issues as is. I have no idea what other TR's are experiencing not getting into dungeons, I guess being in an active guild has spared me from it. I am asked specifically to bring my TR, pretty often.
In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the TR's at all. There is something wrong with all the other classes that weren't given PvP oriented encounters that they can choose to specifically counter the stealth.
Since it's all timing.. they could use the encounter to totally expose the TR to them only, and remove the combat advantage the TR has on them.. for a brief period.
I don't pvp, I don't perma-stealth.. but I really don't want my build destroyed or altered yet again because of things that happen in pvp.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
A lot of buffs and de-buffs going on, plus stats and gear affect your performance heavily of course.
Without any buffs/de-buffs going on just solo'ing sharandar or whatever I can probably hit 30k lashing blade.
Im sorry but if your using movement speed for PVE thats not a very wise choice considering other options will buff your DPS more, not to mention you have two "rolls" that allow you to get out...
I think part of the issue is you dont pvp, your not perma stealth and this will actually buff you for PVE since you will be dealing much more damage overall... THey have already announced they WILL change stealth, just nothing definitive so I would suggest you hear their suggestions and others complains for nerfs as well as do some pvp against some perma TRs and see for yourself how and why this is an issue.
You do realize this would accomplish almost the same thing yet would take up TWO class feature slots instead of 1.
Your suggestion conclusion:
Nerf movement speed by 15%+7.5% = 22.5% and no dmg buff.
My suggestion conclusion
Nerf movement speed 30% buff damage 6%.... OR you can slot tactics and gain AP 15% faster, just gives more options for almost the same thing.
Again, PART of this suggestion is to bring the class feature more inline with the actual D&D class feature, it has nothing to do with movement speed and everything to do with damage...
I think TRs SHOULD be able to crit high and hard, but for that sacrifice some mobility via this one class feature change. Again, I also really think the Lashing blade change (50% CD reduction instead of 100% crit chance AND 50% damage upfront 50% dmg as a DOT) would be a good benefit and bring that encounter back a bit without making it too OP.
Again, I do appreciate what you are saying. There is not really a need to suggest that I don't know how to dodge, that's just silly. My DPS is just fine. Most things die when I ask them to do so, and rather quickly. XD
I think you completely missed my only real point is that I don't care what perma-stealths do in pvp. I don't pvp and I am not going to. My point is that my character has been changed by force several times over PvP when it's not a concern of mine.
I only posted to suggest the creation of powers for other classes that could eliminate the need to nerf anything. That would give people a counter, without breaking entirely the TR's ability to use his build in PvP. Of course I shouldn't have bothered, all such suggestions get washed away like grains of sand in the tide.
BTW- I actually rarely use Sneak Attack. I used it to make the point. I typically run with Tactics and Invisible Infiltrator. (I do occasionally use stealth that way though. Dodge will not really help you that much when swamped by 20 mobs.. being unseen and getting far enough away to pop a potion, or buy enough time for a power to come off cooldown will save your life, though.)
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
I think you are smart enough to realize the points your making can be made from both sides. PVP TRs dont care about what PVE TRs do, and their characters have been changed by force several times over PVE when its not a concern of theirs etc... Its a balancing act and part of most MMOs with both PVE and PVP.
And the reason this suggestion IS a fair one is you case and point, you rarely use it in PVE, because its not really a PVE class feature... And I cant tell you how many threads Ive seen by TRs about PVE damage and how the ideal mix is CWs over PVE TRs... Hence why I think a damage bonus along with a change on some encounters helps balance both the PVE damage (boost) and the PVP damage as well.
Unfortunately, it honestly seems like you would oppose ANY change to anything around your class... Better or worse...
And as mentioned several times above, this isnt a cry for nerf thread its a "hey instead of nerfing, lets locate the real issue and how to balance it". Hence the title is even called there is no need for a nerf...
The DEVs suggestions is a loss of damage in stealth or partial visibility in stealth on a target your attacking, both of those could have detrimental PVE ramifications... Giving a damage bonus instead of run speed isnt asking for nerfs, its asking for change/balance. Going with what godlysoul2 suggested, that is a pure nerf...
I cannot deny that my small hairs stand up every time I hear they are changing anything on any of my chars, regardless of class. haha..
But I wouldn't say that I am opposed as much as apprehensive. I just think there are other options that can be considered before making changes as heavy as that.
I know you weren't crying nerf. I don't bother posting in threads that I think are hot air or dead-ends (or worse.)
I know they are going to change things, and I know nothing I say will change that. But I merely wanted to plant a seed, even if that seed has a smaller chance of success than the drop-rate on certain artifacts.
Personally, I don't think that our thinking on this is as disparate as it may seem on the surface.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
Hence why you slot feats + armor that gives stealth boosts if you want to play that way combined with darks in utility AND skillful infil which gives a 15% movement boost.
I think what you are not considering is TRs already move much faster than any class out there without the 30% boost. I know TRs that can run as fast as normal mounts in stealth... You dont think thats absurd? BTW, the video I link of MY TR, I didnt even use the run speed feat...
All it means is that if you want to be invisible you cant be as mobile as a player on a mount, I dont think thats unreasonable... Thats why the perma is so strong atm not because attacking in stealth but because you can move so fast, that noone can catch you making it easy to avoid players getting close to you. It would almost be like giving GWFs 30% movement speed buff while in unstoppable... Its just ludicrous and Im really surprised its still in the game at that level...
I dont know of any game that allows a full stealthed character to run faster than normal while stealth.... Most games stealthing makes you LESS mobile and speccing into it, or feats/gear can make you AS fast as normal characters, but not in NW and its a large part of the power behind the build, take away run speed advantage and its alot easier to catch up and hit a TR in stealth. Will it be nerfed to the ground? no. You can still play that way, but will it be less effective at pvp? Yes.
I agree GWFs are really effective right now in PVP, they are not AS good as they were and I think its a step in the right direction. The only thing I would honestly like to see in regards to GWFs is that they cannot unstoppable OUT of CC.
Two good examples of this are
1) Smoke Bomb - When a TR uses this it affects all classes except one. If a GWF is hit by it, they cant do anything unless they have determination, then they can flat out unstoppable OUT of the "daze" and are completely mobile and can attack and everything.
What I think should happen is if a TR uses smoke screen on a GWF who is already unstoppable it does nothing, but if its used on a GWF who isnt unstoppable, he cant even use unstoppable until it goes away.
2) Entangling Force (aka Choke) CW skill. Currently GWF can unstoppable out of E.F. I think the same should apply. If a GWF is already unstoppable EF does nothing, if GWF is NOT unstoppable EF should last the entire duration not allowing them to unstoppable OUT of the CC.
If TRs feat gets changed to +dmg % instead of run speed.
If GWFs get this small unstoppable tweak
Then PVP will be MUCH more balanced and I would say the variance of "good classes" is very small with the DC still being the short end of the stick.
Regarding run speed in stealth, I've explained this repeatedly in threads where people have brought it up as totally unfair and unbalanced and not like other games at all (not you, but others in a much less calm fashion). Darthtater68 just mentioned it, but other games don't tie their stealth mechanic to a depleting meter. If you meet conditions to enter stealth, you can, maybe making a hide check. You are then in stealth until you reveal yourself by taking another action or until you are noticed, if there are spot/listen checks. Movement speed can be reduced because as long as all you're doing is sneaking around, you literally have all the time in the world to get wherever you wanted to go while remaining hidden.
In Neverwinter, stealth only lasts a few seconds at its base value. A great many TR feats and powers are built around extending this time, but also around wringing as much utility as possible out of the (standard) brief time the TR remains hidden. The run speed boost is one of those things designed to allow a hidden TR to either reach a target before their stealth ends or to facilitate escaping danger. I'll even add that entering stealth too soon is a mistake that I initially made with my first character, and that I've seen a number of other players make at first as well, as this leads to popping out of stealth just in time to reach the monsters and say "oh, umm... hello! (<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, what do I do now?)". As soon as you hide, that meter starts ticking down as long as you're not doing anything to refill it.
I do appreciate that unlike others I've engaged on this topic, you're not adamantly insisting that Neverwinter TRs should move slower in stealth because that's just the way it's supposed to work in every game ever.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
that is the most important encounter trs have.
No... taking away stealth would be like taking away unstoppable from gwf.
SS is lame, perma-stealth is NOT the BE ALL AND END ALL for rogues... Please stop thinking that it is.
Its perfectly viable, its not hard to fight ppl 1v1 without stealth
Hit and run? Stand and fight dude.
Do you think its impossible to win without perma-stealth or something?
i like to 1v1 more then anything.
TR's can ITC out of smoke bomb. They should also make it so the daze activates right away, you can literally dodge roll out of smoke bomb before it dazes you if you're quick enough. I agree with all your suggestions except for SE, I think it needs to be nerfed to be more comparable to ice knife.
which top tr did u kill 1v1
i know that build.......u just leave
when real tr comes on cap
so before calling out any tr u should proly beat one 1v1 with
full hp ,not coming to only daily him
Ice knife is strong still though... I had a CW crit me for 20k earlier, most I ever got critted from ice knife was 24k and that was before the patch.
TR is meant for dps... shouldn't really be compared to a control char.
And about the non ss utilizing rogue in my opinion is like gimping your class for no reason at all, since it's just like seeing GWF not even care too use their "press tab to own" skill for no purpose at all. another problem most of our skillset has slugish speed (duelist flurry take year to apply 3rd strike, lashing strike cd took forever, our "range" skill are officially suck now thx to IS nerf) which make fighting outside the stealth are just pure bs.
Let's see, ice knife has a long, obvious animation with a loud, obvious sound effect. If you ever get hit with it if you're not already CC'd there's a problem. It can be deflected, which will also negate the stun it has.
SE is literally unavoidable. Cannot be dodged, cannot be deflected, if it crits it will 100-0 someone. Pretty much a guaranteed kill if your target is at like 60%.
You honestly think that's fair?
Saying Tr is for this and CW is for that is completely irrelevant, these dailies are essentially the same, huge damage spikes, except SE is infinitely better.
which top tr did u kill 1v1
i know that build.......u just leave
when real tr comes on cap
so before calling out any tr u should proly beat one 1v1 with
full hp ,not coming to only daily him
U r a f... troll, or just like to saying nonsenses... choose one. Ahh one more thing, permas dont exist anymore, only permas-based builds, u cant be true permas now, best i saw had like 80% permas (100% only with GC, never saw tr using it right in pvp)....
Lets take a sitution, u r a TR, and good player, and standing against any other class played be good player, lets se:
CW will use choke + chill combination, then ice knife u, and redo if it was not enought...u wont even come close if u dont use stealth or DS, and if u do, they have 3 dodges, while u problably have 0 cos u needed to use them just to get close to him <lol>, so SS and ITC r desperatly needed, so 2 enouters slots wasted for survivality skills... great...
GWF - well we r speaking about good ones, right? so sent for sure with they IV build... i dont even need to say this, permaslike, or dmg enounter's sloted tr will just end trashed, end of story, only permas-based can do here somthing 1vs 1...
GF - u will just keep flying, and when no, they will sheild like half of ur hits at them, and then u will fly again, coz f.e bullcharge has crazy recharge time.
HR - good builed melee will just take u down before u even aply DF( btw not like u should use DF in pvp if u dont have bilet, and u alredy r expd in using it) they have horrible amount od stuning, interupting and dodge skill, yeah, try to fight some1 like melee hr without ss + itc (again 2 encounters wasted for survivality encounters, great)
DC - u wont be able to kill rly good dc without blongtime CA, but he wont be able to kill u either
Another TR - no tr builed as nonpermas (actualy permaslike, coz we dont have true permas anymore) E V E N was able to beat my tr... maybe when i was after another fight and my hp was rly low (btw im using ITC - which is bugged now ofc<lol>, ss and PoB, coz im forced to do it, nothing else, i always liked itc, lashing + impact, but now? no chance to win anything with those skills, maybe toyin is possible, but only for short amount of time)
BTW u have said u crited with 120k? Troll deteced, or u just need buy new glasses, lets see u base atk can be 13k max i think, well never even saw tr with that much... so u need like 900% of ur crit severity to deal 120k... and targed def need to be reduced to zero...
Highter hit i had from lashing was like 60k on Val, with all those cw and gf debuffs + lantern...120k? H O W? What amount of debuffs on targed and buff on yourself u need to have to deal like dmg 10x of u atk score...? geez...
Lol so basically your saying its not possible for a TR to win a 1v1 fight against any other class except itself without the over-use of stealth?
WRONG
If you were good enough in the 1st place you wouldn't have problems against GFs and GWFs
CWs and HRs that keep their distance is a diff story but there are ways and means of countering that... You don't need to use shadow strike every 5 seconds, you obviously havnt analysed your class/build properly
Lastly, I hit 120k LASHING BLADE not Shocking Ex. in FC on the final boss with my vorpal
I also hit 106k crit Lashing Blade with P.Bilethorn
Most I have hit on Valindra was 84k
Maybe you don't know what Buffs/de-buffs are but next time your in a group with a cleric tell him to use Hallowed Ground and Divine glow in conjunction with G.Plaguefire and full High prophet t1 set And you will see what I am talking about. I would have taken a picture but I hit 100k+ often enough that I don't need to show off with it.
Just because you hit 60k on valindra you think no1 can do better than you?
Next time pipe down before you claim somebody is trolling.
Nah m8, i have only gvorpal, so i have obviously lack in hight end dmg, but well, u cant have less def than 0.00, so u can stack debuffs endlessly, ofc def debuffs+ buffs incrasing u atk, or incrasing at target works, but m8, usualy its 0.1 or 0.2 ur atk power or so, and u r saying here u got 10x of total? well 5x u atk power + u crit severity... so... 25 debuffs/buffs?
I don't know the statistics but if you tell a healer to use that combination of buff + de-buffing you will get what I mean.
Attack doesn't mean anything as a stat its just the total of your offensive stats (Power, Crit, ArPen and Recovery) that's all. Crit Strike and Recovery is not contributing to any damage at all.