People mostly talk about dodges being small distance, but they are still dodges, and if timed well allow you to completely negate your opponents damage.
Right now HR has too much of everything. Hard CC and high damage combined with insane tankiness lead them to the first place on the pedestal of PVP OPness.
I just wanna point out all the things HR has:
Stealth
5 forms of different CC which are
Snare
Stun
Silence
Knockdown
Roots
Zone control abilities: Rain of Arrows, Split the Sky, Thorn Ward.
The best PvP AoE damaging ability - Split Shot
One of the best PvP defensive abilities - Aspect of the Lone Wolf
5 consistent dodges
High damaging ranged burst ability - Aim Shot
High damaging melee burst ability - Fox Shift
The best PvP gear in terms of stats
If you want you can take every paragraph of that list and compare it to the rest of classes. IMO, tenacity update made HRs extremely broken.
I see the more HRs not afraid of going in melee against 2+ players because you barely can burst them anymore.
The only ways I see to bring them on par with other classes:
1. Fix the bug that causes deflect to reduce duration of CC.
2. Nerf Aspect of the Lone Wolf bonus DR.
3. Fix the bug that makes all roots effects undodgeable.
4. Reduce number or duration of Constricting Arrow stuns or rework this ability completely.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
I have actually found ONE HR that seemed OP, but when looked upon closer, he was just playing smart. I have a TR and a GF, so i am used to being the king of the hill and the underdog in PVP, but i have always noticed that players that time their moves and know what to do often look OP when in fact they are not.
It is true HR are hard to hit and seem way more effective in mellee range now, but i'd give it time so we see some counter measures being made for them on the form of other players strategies.
HR is strong in this Patch, their set is awesome. Tenacity fix the problem that they are too easily cced/burst while they have the ability to escape from fight zone in order to let regen tick without being under healing depression.
I honestly would vote HR to be even better class than GWF atm due to the stupid shocking execution, having all those dodges and stealth ability to avoid dmg is amazing.
HR is strong in this Patch, their set is awesome. Tenacity fix the problem that they are too easily cced/burst while they have the ability to escape from fight zone in order to let regen tick without being under healing depression.
I honestly would vote HR to be even better class than GWF atm due to the stupid shocking execution, having all those dodges and stealth ability to avoid dmg is amazing.
Well that is the issue. HR was fine before tenacity patch, now there are posts about it being OP. Solution is not to nerf the class, the solution is to scrap the crappy tenacity idea that nobody even wanted anyway.
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hadrieleMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited March 2014
Funny how a lot of you are saying HRs are unkillable or OP. I take it you mostly PUG arenas, right? Nothing wrong with that, and I agree that HRs are strong compared to most PUG compositions, but try running premades and you'll see that HRs are just on par, if not a little less on par with other classes especially GFs, perma stealths, and GWFs.
Sure it's fun getting all those kills in PUGS, but when it comes to 5v5 full premades against good PvP guilds, 95% of the reasoning in this thread don't apply. I have 16.3k GS in PvP gear (almost 2.3k defense, 15% deflect, almost 1k tenacity, 30k HP, 5k power and almost 40% crit) - nothing to brag about, but not bad stats either - and I can barely hold a point against an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF. Yes I don't die in one full GWF rotation, but after 2 minutes of whacking each other, an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF outlast me.
HRs are excellent at range combat, but when trying to hold a node, we are nowhere as OP as 95% of the posts here make it to be. Or maybe the thread title should clarify "HRs are OP getting last hits for most kills in PUGs" because I can agree with that.
I can understand the sentiments in this thread. I feel OP when I solo queue and face squishy PUGs, but to all of you saying HRs are OP, try some high level full premade PvP then come back and tell me if HRs are still OP.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Funny how a lot of you are saying HRs are unkillable or OP. I take it you mostly PUG arenas, right? Nothing wrong with that, and I agree that HRs are strong compared to most PUG compositions, but try running premades and you'll see that HRs are just on par, if not a little less on par with other classes especially GFs, perma stealths, and GWFs.
+1
I'd replace GF's in that quote with CWs but the rest is very true imo.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Funny how a lot of you are saying HRs are unkillable or OP. I take it you mostly PUG arenas, right? Nothing wrong with that, and I agree that HRs are strong compared to most PUG compositions, but try running premades and you'll see that HRs are just on par, if not a little less on par with other classes especially GFs, perma stealths, and GWFs.
Sure it's fun getting all those kills in PUGS, but when it comes to 5v5 full premades against good PvP guilds, 95% of the reasoning in this thread don't apply. I have 16.3k GS in PvP gear (almost 2.3k defense, 15% deflect, almost 1k tenacity, 30k HP, 5k power and almost 40% crit) - nothing to brag about, but not bad stats either - and I can barely hold a point against an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF. Yes I don't die in one full GWF rotation, but after 2 minutes of whacking each other, an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF outlast me.
HRs are excellent at range combat, but when trying to hold a node, we are nowhere as OP as 95% of the posts here make it to be. Or maybe the thread title should clarify "HRs are OP getting last hits for most kills in PUGs" because I can agree with that.
I can understand the sentiments in this thread. I feel OP when I solo queue and face squishy PUGs, but to all of you saying HRs are OP, try some high level full premade PvP then come back and tell me if HRs are still OP.
+1 as well.
Even pugging, the hr depends on the team, even more than cws.
I laugh at the post saying that hrs have cc... whats the class that can do mass stunning, freezing, dazing, repels? oh yea, not the hr that's for sure. if we had the cc that cws have, why do dungeons still want cws? its called "crowd control" because it does those things to crowds. all the control that hrs do is SINGLE TARGET.
I think someone's also forgetting that the hr dodges are shorter, so theres less room for mistake in their damage immunity. cws and dcs offer the most room for the dodges. so they get 2x dodges everybody else has, but have 1/2 the window for doing it.
Yes they have zone control abilities, but they don't have cc for when everyone wants to gang up on them.
The stealth is laughable, as not only do you have a 2 second activation time, rogues do it for much longer. The silence is also not for long either.
the knockdown? oh yea, every class can do that.
The ranger has great ranged dps, and versatility... but for that versatility, other classes can do it better. gwfs/gfs/trs tank better, dc heals(although that healing depression is bs), cw is a cc'er AND still does damage. In a group dynamic, its always good to have a ranger, but a permastealth rogue, iv sent gwf(or even destroyer), and/or a cw are a better pick.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
i find it funny that anyone would be saying hr is op at all lol there was a thread a while back in the wilds that said that the HR was basically <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. I never agreed to nor thought this but alot of them said i was wrong figures. :cool:
these classes are all basically balanced the balance changes as the players involved in an encounter: skill, gear, and progression does and the fact that no one really decides to look at the weakness and strengths of these classes they have problems with which is why you cry nerf which helps absolutely no one and hurts absolutely everyone.
*mockingly - its not my problem i dont play hr.... its everyones problem because if you nerf 1 class based off of a few encounters with people who consistantly ruin in pvp especially if you arent prepared; you have to nerf something for everyone its called balance for a reason.
Nerfs ruin far more games than they actually help just ask the GFs.
You do realize that 95% of PVP matches are PUGS, right?
True. But theres some people in this game that dont understand that. I contend with people all the time(it gets old, but people wont change i guess) that the majority of pvp is pugging, so statements about how things go everytime are invalid, if you bring up words like "my PvP guild", or "most PvPers are/use <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>". This game gives enough diversity that you can encounter ANYTHING when you pvp.
Just dont tell certain people about that
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Yeap. Came to this conclusion after playing 30+ matches as all classes after the update (and as a HR too).
I don't know what mechanics the game uses to calculate excurrent DR for HRs, but they seem to have at least 70% damage resistance. Hell, when I hit them it seems like I'm hitting unstoppable GWF.
I've tried to use CWs debuff stacking, GWF with almost 40% ArP - nothing worked.
I don't know if I'm doing something wrong, but HRs seem to be new GWF - always deflect, CC doesn't work, insanely high defense, very high HP pool (I have 31k on my HR without maxing Con and only with 2 R7s radiants) plus practically unlimited amount of dodges and Maradeur's Escape.
I think that core of the problem is Aspect of the Lone Wolf, which combined with Tenacity gives them <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> survivability. Oh, and using T2 pvp set and 2d feat tree they run with 25% more speed in melee stance. And their Constricting Arrow and roots...
I repeat: may be, may be as a PvP'er playing Neverwinter since open beta I'm doing something wrong, but I can't figure it out how in heaven and all the existence should I play against Hunter Rangers after Tenacity update.
If you have any thoughts, suggestions or opinions - feel free to respond, but please, be constructive.
Very True Bro!!!!
HR are the new PITA
Best Ones are unkillable!!!
Great Defenses/Great Movement Speed/Great Crits and attacks/can snipe and run, run , run some more and if you get to close... guess what???? they NOW CAN BRING YOU DOWN LIKE PAPER .... whuoa hitting like a truck from close quarters and from a distance.. is to much!!!!!
Check this Final part of the Video!!!! PLS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8ooTlHN584
Check Minute 13.20 you can see how this HR came back from the dead with his soulforged and kill the almost HP full CW... like nothing.
Talk about Class Imbalance!
Cryptic must hate TR taking from our equipment the little HP we got and giving this CLASS that much movement, power,defense, HP regen back and something from our Realm... STEALTH ... tsss.. cant believe it
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guille23mxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
edited March 2014
Even Blacksheep(when was around) said something around those Lines...
" I have a full BIS HR and feel sorry for the People (that i kill so easy)
that I don't even use it... cause they die so fast its not even funny!"
Even Blacksheep(when was around) said something around those Lines...
" I have a full BIS HR and feel sorry for the People (that i kill so easy)
that I don't even use it... cause they die so fast its not even funny!"
Very True Bro!!!!
HR are the new PITA
Best Ones are unkillable!!!
Great Defenses/Great Movement Speed/Great Crits and attacks/can snipe and run, run , run some more and if you get to close... guess what???? they NOW CAN BRING YOU DOWN LIKE PAPER .... whuoa hitting like a truck from close quarters and from a distance.. is to much!!!!!
Check this Final part of the Video!!!! PLS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8ooTlHN584
Check Minute 13.20 you can see how this HR came back from the dead with his soulforged and kill the almost HP full CW... like nothing.
Talk about Class Imbalance!
Cryptic must hate TR taking from our equipment the little HP we got and giving this CLASS that much movement, power,defense, HP regen back and something from our Realm... STEALTH ... tsss.. cant believe it
He has a perfect soulforged and the cw was bad. A HR has 5 seconds of stealth, which you can only activate if you aren't being hit and don't move for 1-2 seconds, which is very rare (you can see the HR had to hide so he could use it). A TR has perma-stealth which activates instantly. And when you do get cc'd you can be cc'd to death where a TR has ITC and goes back in stealth.
I have a TR as well, and I agree it's weird that the old GG set has hitpoints on it and the new PVP sets don't where (all?) other classes do. As a TR you have stealth, ITC, Bloodbath, it's really not that big a deal. Regeneration is the same as HR.
I've had some interesting encounters HR vs TR (some as HR, some as TR) against other players with roughly the same gear and skill, the TR usually won because of SE.
running around and never capping lool
which top tr did u kill 1v1
i know that build.......u just leave
when real tr comes on cap
so before calling out any tr u should proly beat one 1v1 with
full hp ,not coming to only daily him
Hi people , just logged for the first time to the forums to see whats up ,
and from what i see people here talk nonsence, not sure what the reason is
(maybe because u whine too much on forums and dont play and dont actually look into YOUR class and character)
I myself have characters of all classes , and play both PVP and PVE with all of them ,
and no , i dont use same sets for pve and pvp , and i took the time to learn the mechanics of all classes.
With that being said , HRs are not OP or whatever , you just dont know how to play against them , and dont know what are their weaknesses, couple of examples:
1.GWF who will crit u 3 times with takedown>Frontline surge>IBS will Kill you doesnt matter what class you are or how much HP you have , you maybe lucky and can get out with 10% hp after this combo, and youll last the exact ammount of time that takes to a GWF get his frontline surge off CD and land it, or Savage advance.
2.CW who will combo you with proper pvp build (which happends to be DPS build as CWs cant last long even with defensive build)
and by combo I mean something like entagling force>Icy Rays>Shard>chill strike will have your hp down to 50% even if youre a GWF (not a 40k gwf who doesnt deal damage tho)
3.TR who will duelist flurry u 1 time , will have atleast 3 stacks of bleed on u , will unload all his cloud of steel on you , will leave you with 60-70% if youre tanky , 30-40% if youre squishy , assuming that he have bile enchant. He can repeat that rotation one more time in ~9 seconds(as this is shadow strike cd after his stealth and ITC ends , or even less if you will get cought in his flurry again and proc his cd reduction feat. After that all he has to do is Shocking execution , which will crit for atleast 20k with 3k power on you (assuming he didnt have vorpal enchantment for 35k or even more)
4.HR who put a thorn ward on a node and you need to hold it , will have ur defence reduced and ull notice damage increase on u after 5 stacks of thorn ward, and u will be stupid enough to stand still or waste ur dodges , HR will fox you to 40% HP too
5.GF is underpowered right now, but even GF can chain prone u into 4 seconds of immobility , or more if he have a daily (and he should if u blew his shield)
And one more important thing to point out: if you will have 2k defence , 2k deflect , and 35k HP , you WILL be tanky and it will take alot of effort to kill you doesnt matter what class are you, so if you waste or allocate your stats wrong its stats allocation problem and not the class being over or underpowered.
Maybe you do not create a petition to delete the class of the game? It is bad for PvE and PvP it is unfair ... If you do not kill an HR with another class you are bad or the guy is good. Simple.
Tired of killing TR'se other classes with my HR doing 1x1. When I die I know it was for a good player.
Is full of guys with high gearscore, tenacity and this pile of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> but do not know how to play.
Funny how a lot of you are saying HRs are unkillable or OP. I take it you mostly PUG arenas, right? Nothing wrong with that, and I agree that HRs are strong compared to most PUG compositions, but try running premades and you'll see that HRs are just on par, if not a little less on par with other classes especially GFs, perma stealths, and GWFs.
Sure it's fun getting all those kills in PUGS, but when it comes to 5v5 full premades against good PvP guilds, 95% of the reasoning in this thread don't apply. I have 16.3k GS in PvP gear (almost 2.3k defense, 15% deflect, almost 1k tenacity, 30k HP, 5k power and almost 40% crit) - nothing to brag about, but not bad stats either - and I can barely hold a point against an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF. Yes I don't die in one full GWF rotation, but after 2 minutes of whacking each other, an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF outlast me.
HRs are excellent at range combat, but when trying to hold a node, we are nowhere as OP as 95% of the posts here make it to be. Or maybe the thread title should clarify "HRs are OP getting last hits for most kills in PUGs" because I can agree with that.
I can understand the sentiments in this thread. I feel OP when I solo queue and face squishy PUGs, but to all of you saying HRs are OP, try some high level full premade PvP then come back and tell me if HRs are still OP.[/QUOTE With 15% deflect your not the melee spec so unless you respec and then do some premade i dont think you would n=know what people are talkign about...i have a hr only 12k gs but my deflect chance is like 37 % in melee stance and with 22% tenacity he is a lot more tanky than your build..try it and you will see what everyone is talking about
Funny how a lot of you are saying HRs are unkillable or OP. I take it you mostly PUG arenas, right? Nothing wrong with that, and I agree that HRs are strong compared to most PUG compositions, but try running premades and you'll see that HRs are just on par, if not a little less on par with other classes especially GFs, perma stealths, and GWFs.
Sure it's fun getting all those kills in PUGS, but when it comes to 5v5 full premades against good PvP guilds, 95% of the reasoning in this thread don't apply. I have 16.3k GS in PvP gear (almost 2.3k defense, 15% deflect, almost 1k tenacity, 30k HP, 5k power and almost 40% crit) - nothing to brag about, but not bad stats either - and I can barely hold a point against an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF. Yes I don't die in one full GWF rotation, but after 2 minutes of whacking each other, an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF outlast me.
HRs are excellent at range combat, but when trying to hold a node, we are nowhere as OP as 95% of the posts here make it to be. Or maybe the thread title should clarify "HRs are OP getting last hits for most kills in PUGs" because I can agree with that.
I can understand the sentiments in this thread. I feel OP when I solo queue and face squishy PUGs, but to all of you saying HRs are OP, try some high level full premade PvP then come back and tell me if HRs are still OP.[/QUOTE With 15% deflect your not the melee spec so unless you respec and then do some premade i dont think you would n=know what people are talkign about...i have a hr only 12k gs but my deflect chance is like 37 % in melee stance and with 22% tenacity he is a lot more tanky than your build..try it and you will see what everyone is talking about
Very True Bro!!!!
HR are the new PITA
Best Ones are unkillable!!!
Great Defenses/Great Movement Speed/Great Crits and attacks/can snipe and run, run , run some more and if you get to close... guess what???? they NOW CAN BRING YOU DOWN LIKE PAPER .... whuoa hitting like a truck from close quarters and from a distance.. is to much!!!!!
Check this Final part of the Video!!!! PLS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8ooTlHN584
Check Minute 13.20 you can see how this HR came back from the dead with his soulforged and kill the almost HP full CW... like nothing.
Talk about Class Imbalance!
Cryptic must hate TR taking from our equipment the little HP we got and giving this CLASS that much movement, power,defense, HP regen back and something from our Realm... STEALTH ... tsss.. cant believe it
Your video is fun and nice but you know that your opponent are weak - yes ? You have build near by to my current so if you have good team you will see soon that this build is nice and fun but vs PUG...
Funny how a lot of you are saying HRs are unkillable or OP. I take it you mostly PUG arenas, right? Nothing wrong with that, and I agree that HRs are strong compared to most PUG compositions, but try running premades and you'll see that HRs are just on par, if not a little less on par with other classes especially GFs, perma stealths, and GWFs.
Sure it's fun getting all those kills in PUGS, but when it comes to 5v5 full premades against good PvP guilds, 95% of the reasoning in this thread don't apply. I have 16.3k GS in PvP gear (almost 2.3k defense, 15% deflect, almost 1k tenacity, 30k HP, 5k power and almost 40% crit) - nothing to brag about, but not bad stats either - and I can barely hold a point against an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF. Yes I don't die in one full GWF rotation, but after 2 minutes of whacking each other, an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF outlast me.
HRs are excellent at range combat, but when trying to hold a node, we are nowhere as OP as 95% of the posts here make it to be. Or maybe the thread title should clarify "HRs are OP getting last hits for most kills in PUGs" because I can agree with that.
I can understand the sentiments in this thread. I feel OP when I solo queue and face squishy PUGs, but to all of you saying HRs are OP, try some high level full premade PvP then come back and tell me if HRs are still OP.[/QUOTE With 15% deflect your not the melee spec so unless you respec and then do some premade i dont think you would n=know what people are talkign about...i have a hr only 12k gs but my deflect chance is like 37 % in melee stance and with 22% tenacity he is a lot more tanky than your build..try it and you will see what everyone is talking about
True story.
But I think to improve at max the tanky build on HR I just need a bit time coz I am free player with not so much time xD
Funny how a lot of you are saying HRs are unkillable or OP. I take it you mostly PUG arenas, right? Nothing wrong with that, and I agree that HRs are strong compared to most PUG compositions, but try running premades and you'll see that HRs are just on par, if not a little less on par with other classes especially GFs, perma stealths, and GWFs.
Sure it's fun getting all those kills in PUGS, but when it comes to 5v5 full premades against good PvP guilds, 95% of the reasoning in this thread don't apply. I have 16.3k GS in PvP gear (almost 2.3k defense, 15% deflect, almost 1k tenacity, 30k HP, 5k power and almost 40% crit) - nothing to brag about, but not bad stats either - and I can barely hold a point against an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF. Yes I don't die in one full GWF rotation, but after 2 minutes of whacking each other, an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF outlast me.
HRs are excellent at range combat, but when trying to hold a node, we are nowhere as OP as 95% of the posts here make it to be. Or maybe the thread title should clarify "HRs are OP getting last hits for most kills in PUGs" because I can agree with that.
I can understand the sentiments in this thread. I feel OP when I solo queue and face squishy PUGs, but to all of you saying HRs are OP, try some high level full premade PvP then come back and tell me if HRs are still OP.
Sure it's fun getting all those kills in PUGS, but when it comes to 5v5 full premades against good PvP guilds, 95% of the reasoning in this thread don't apply. I have 16.3k GS in PvP gear (almost 2.3k defense, 15% deflect, almost 1k tenacity, 30k HP, 5k power and almost 40% crit) - nothing to brag about, but not bad stats either - and I can barely hold a point against an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF. Yes I don't die in one full GWF rotation, but after 2 minutes of whacking each other, an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF outlast me.
HRs are excellent at range combat, but when trying to hold a node, we are nowhere as OP as 95% of the posts here make it to be. Or maybe the thread title should clarify "HRs are OP getting last hits for most kills in PUGs" because I can agree with that.
I can understand the sentiments in this thread. I feel OP when I solo queue and face squishy PUGs, but to all of you saying HRs are OP, try some high level full premade PvP then come back and tell me if HRs are still OP.
It's mostly relative balance. Some classes have it easier, others have it tough.
The frustrations observed in this thread (IMO) mostly come from TRs and CWs in that these are essentially:
(1) "squishy" classes
(2) when fighting against a HR, usually turns into a "who hits the major CC power first?" fight
(3) or else, things go badly if (2) doesn't go well
(4) and things can still go bad even if (2) went well
(5) HRs have powers to enter stealth (bad for CWs)
(6) HRs have spammable attempt power that auto-detects stealth within range and hits(bad for TRs)
GFs and GWFs are mostly free from the above pointers in that;
(1) (despite being heavy melee) they have it really, really easy with a gazillion gap-closers
(2) can ignore CCs through well-timed blocks or just turn unstoppable
(3) have very high defensive stats/HP so can reliably withstand punishment even if constricted/grasped
(4) have multiple prones to attempt/spam even if one misses (...most of them being frickin' bullshi* ranged/AoE at that)
...and thus fighters can pretty much negate the HRs kiting attempts, close in and spam CCs even if the HR spams dodges, one of them hits and then starts the chain-prone/spam combos to deal hefty damage, and has much less consequences despite being frequently constricted/grasped.
For CWs and TRs, not so. They don't have as much CCs to attempt multiple times, so if the initial CC attempt fails during any of the 5~6 HR dodges with a slippery, irregular timing, the fight quickly turns in favor to the HRs -- on the contrary, TRs and CWs are actually more predictable with their dodge timing. CWs, at most 3, TRs at most 2.
In this case the long-ditance dodging of TRs and CWs actually makes it more predictable with a leisurely timing to exploit, whereas HR dodges are quick and consecutive, and often very difficul to find the "standing still" timing a CW and TR may exploit. As a matter of fact often in the initial opening of the fight, the only time when the HR briefly stands still, is when it is shooting Constricting Arrow -- one of the fastest attacks in the game. In many casses the CA will hit before any other attack attempt from the CW or TR .. and then ofcourse, the Fox's Shift combo, which is also very heavy hitting.
... now, TRs have an alternate choice to go perma or semi-perma in is build, as well as ITC to use, so they have it easier -- but for CWs... if they fail to connect with the CC, then they go straight downhilll from there.
So, IMO in terms of how easy it is to fight against HRs, my rating would be:
CW(hardest) < TR < GF < GWF(easiest)
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It's mostly relative balance. Some classes have it easier, others have it tough.
The frustrations observed in this thread (IMO) mostly come from TRs and CWs in that these are essentially:
(1) "squishy" classes
(2) when fighting against a HR, usually turns into a "who hits the major CC power first?" fight
(3) or else, things go badly if (2) doesn't go well
(4) and things can still go bad even if (2) went well
(5) HRs have powers to enter stealth (bad for CWs)
(6) HRs have spammable attempt power that auto-detects stealth within range and hits(bad for TRs)
GFs and GWFs are mostly free from the above pointers in that;
(1) (despite being heavy melee) they have it really, really easy with a gazillion gap-closers
(2) can ignore CCs through well-timed blocks or just turn unstoppable
(3) have very high defensive stats/HP so can reliably withstand punishment even if constricted/grasped
(4) have multiple prones to attempt/spam even if one misses (...most of them being frickin' bullshi* ranged/AoE at that)
...and thus fighters can pretty much negate the HRs kiting attempts, close in and spam CCs even if the HR spams dodges, one of them hits and then starts the chain-prone/spam combos to deal hefty damage, and has much less consequences despite being frequently constricted/grasped.
For CWs and TRs, not so. They don't have as much CCs to attempt multiple times, so if the initial CC attempt fails during any of the 5~6 HR dodges with a slippery, irregular timing, the fight quickly turns in favor to the HRs -- on the contrary, TRs and CWs are actually more predictable with their dodge timing. CWs, at most 3, TRs at most 2.
In this case the long-ditance dodging of TRs and CWs actually makes it more predictable with a leisurely timing to exploit, whereas HR dodges are quick and consecutive, and often very difficul to find the "standing still" timing a CW and TR may exploit. As a matter of fact often in the initial opening of the fight, the only time when the HR briefly stands still, is when it is shooting Constricting Arrow -- one of the fastest attacks in the game. In many casses the CA will hit before any other attack attempt from the CW or TR .. and then ofcourse, the Fox's Shift combo, which is also very heavy hitting.
... now, TRs have an alternate choice to go perma or semi-perma in is build, as well as ITC to use, so they have it easier -- but for CWs... if they fail to connect with the CC, then they go straight downhilll from there.
So, IMO in terms of how easy it is to fight against HRs, my rating would be:
CW(hardest) < TR < GF < GWF(easiest)
Thanks kweassa, well put. One thing though. If the cw starts his cc and hits on entangling force, the HR 9 out of 10 times is done. Thats the thing with CWs... they hit their cc first, and the target's usually done. Only the gwf can hold up to their assault, and thats by going unstoppable. A gf can block, yes, but only if he gets out of cc. HRs and GFs are the only 2 classes w/o a way out of cc(dont count cws, cuz thats just a mirror match).
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I must disagree with what is said in this thread, I main a HR since the class was released and pvp patch/gear doesnt make that big of a difference for me. Its just as it was said up there, if u fight a HR that already has grim/profound gear and u have like T1 or the like youre probably going to die quite fast. The same applies to any class, if my HR that currently has grim set + profound bow fights a GWF with similar gear, to put it simple, I kite or die. Moreover, since pvp patch HR's grasping roots became utterly useless bcs any small amount of tenacity breaks it. If HR keeps killing you you may want to rethink your combo rotation when facing them on pvp.
The survival of the hr is her movement and unpredictability. The CLASS has the potential to be very very hard to kill. A skilled player using a greater or better elven battle enchant may seem impossible to kill. But its not, its just a good player. It can be killed by a better player.
People mostly talk about dodges being small distance, but they are still dodges, and if timed well allow you to completely negate your opponents damage.
Right now HR has too much of everything. Hard CC and high damage combined with insane tankiness lead them to the first place on the pedestal of PVP OPness.
I just wanna point out all the things HR has:
Stealth
5 forms of different CC which are
Snare
Stun
Silence
Knockdown
Roots
Zone control abilities: Rain of Arrows, Split the Sky, Thorn Ward.
The best PvP AoE damaging ability - Split Shot
One of the best PvP defensive abilities - Aspect of the Lone Wolf
5 consistent dodges
High damaging ranged burst ability - Aim Shot
High damaging melee burst ability - Fox Shift
The best PvP gear in terms of stats
If you want you can take every paragraph of that list and compare it to the rest of classes. IMO, tenacity update made HRs extremely broken.
I see the more HRs not afraid of going in melee against 2+ players because you barely can burst them anymore.
The only ways I see to bring them on par with other classes:
1. Fix the bug that causes deflect to reduce duration of CC.
2. Nerf Aspect of the Lone Wolf bonus DR.
3. Fix the bug that makes all roots effects undodgeable.
4. Reduce number or duration of Constricting Arrow stuns or rework this ability completely.
Everything you just said is silly. 99% of HR's don't run with any of those encounters on their bars. I use marauders escape/shift, constricting arrow and fox shift. The CC on constricting arrow is a joke. It lasts just long enough to gain some distance thats it. My splitshot crits for 2k if im lucky. The damage I put out is subpar at best. I'm build to survive and keep peoples attention.
Comments
Right now HR has too much of everything. Hard CC and high damage combined with insane tankiness lead them to the first place on the pedestal of PVP OPness.
I just wanna point out all the things HR has:
If you want you can take every paragraph of that list and compare it to the rest of classes. IMO, tenacity update made HRs extremely broken.
I see the more HRs not afraid of going in melee against 2+ players because you barely can burst them anymore.
The only ways I see to bring them on par with other classes:
1. Fix the bug that causes deflect to reduce duration of CC.
2. Nerf Aspect of the Lone Wolf bonus DR.
3. Fix the bug that makes all roots effects undodgeable.
4. Reduce number or duration of Constricting Arrow stuns or rework this ability completely.
It is true HR are hard to hit and seem way more effective in mellee range now, but i'd give it time so we see some counter measures being made for them on the form of other players strategies.
I honestly would vote HR to be even better class than GWF atm due to the stupid shocking execution, having all those dodges and stealth ability to avoid dmg is amazing.
Sure it's fun getting all those kills in PUGS, but when it comes to 5v5 full premades against good PvP guilds, 95% of the reasoning in this thread don't apply. I have 16.3k GS in PvP gear (almost 2.3k defense, 15% deflect, almost 1k tenacity, 30k HP, 5k power and almost 40% crit) - nothing to brag about, but not bad stats either - and I can barely hold a point against an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF. Yes I don't die in one full GWF rotation, but after 2 minutes of whacking each other, an equally geared GWF, perma stealth, or GF outlast me.
HRs are excellent at range combat, but when trying to hold a node, we are nowhere as OP as 95% of the posts here make it to be. Or maybe the thread title should clarify "HRs are OP getting last hits for most kills in PUGs" because I can agree with that.
I can understand the sentiments in this thread. I feel OP when I solo queue and face squishy PUGs, but to all of you saying HRs are OP, try some high level full premade PvP then come back and tell me if HRs are still OP.
+1
I'd replace GF's in that quote with CWs but the rest is very true imo.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
+1 as well.
Even pugging, the hr depends on the team, even more than cws.
I laugh at the post saying that hrs have cc... whats the class that can do mass stunning, freezing, dazing, repels? oh yea, not the hr that's for sure. if we had the cc that cws have, why do dungeons still want cws? its called "crowd control" because it does those things to crowds. all the control that hrs do is SINGLE TARGET.
I think someone's also forgetting that the hr dodges are shorter, so theres less room for mistake in their damage immunity. cws and dcs offer the most room for the dodges. so they get 2x dodges everybody else has, but have 1/2 the window for doing it.
Yes they have zone control abilities, but they don't have cc for when everyone wants to gang up on them.
The stealth is laughable, as not only do you have a 2 second activation time, rogues do it for much longer. The silence is also not for long either.
the knockdown? oh yea, every class can do that.
The ranger has great ranged dps, and versatility... but for that versatility, other classes can do it better. gwfs/gfs/trs tank better, dc heals(although that healing depression is bs), cw is a cc'er AND still does damage. In a group dynamic, its always good to have a ranger, but a permastealth rogue, iv sent gwf(or even destroyer), and/or a cw are a better pick.
these classes are all basically balanced the balance changes as the players involved in an encounter: skill, gear, and progression does and the fact that no one really decides to look at the weakness and strengths of these classes they have problems with which is why you cry nerf which helps absolutely no one and hurts absolutely everyone.
*mockingly - its not my problem i dont play hr.... its everyones problem because if you nerf 1 class based off of a few encounters with people who consistantly ruin in pvp especially if you arent prepared; you have to nerf something for everyone its called balance for a reason.
Nerfs ruin far more games than they actually help just ask the GFs.
True. But theres some people in this game that dont understand that. I contend with people all the time(it gets old, but people wont change i guess) that the majority of pvp is pugging, so statements about how things go everytime are invalid, if you bring up words like "my PvP guild", or "most PvPers are/use <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>". This game gives enough diversity that you can encounter ANYTHING when you pvp.
Just dont tell certain people about that
Very True Bro!!!!
HR are the new PITA
Best Ones are unkillable!!!
Great Defenses/Great Movement Speed/Great Crits and attacks/can snipe and run, run , run some more and if you get to close... guess what???? they NOW CAN BRING YOU DOWN LIKE PAPER .... whuoa hitting like a truck from close quarters and from a distance.. is to much!!!!!
Check this Final part of the Video!!!! PLS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8ooTlHN584
Check Minute 13.20 you can see how this HR came back from the dead with his soulforged and kill the almost HP full CW... like nothing.
Talk about Class Imbalance!
Cryptic must hate TR taking from our equipment the little HP we got and giving this CLASS that much movement, power,defense, HP regen back and something from our Realm... STEALTH ... tsss.. cant believe it
" I have a full BIS HR and feel sorry for the People (that i kill so easy)
that I don't even use it... cause they die so fast its not even funny!"
That was when the Stormstep bug was still around.
He has a perfect soulforged and the cw was bad. A HR has 5 seconds of stealth, which you can only activate if you aren't being hit and don't move for 1-2 seconds, which is very rare (you can see the HR had to hide so he could use it). A TR has perma-stealth which activates instantly. And when you do get cc'd you can be cc'd to death where a TR has ITC and goes back in stealth.
I have a TR as well, and I agree it's weird that the old GG set has hitpoints on it and the new PVP sets don't where (all?) other classes do. As a TR you have stealth, ITC, Bloodbath, it's really not that big a deal. Regeneration is the same as HR.
I've had some interesting encounters HR vs TR (some as HR, some as TR) against other players with roughly the same gear and skill, the TR usually won because of SE.
God bless amen
which top tr did u kill 1v1
i know that build.......u just leave
when real tr comes on cap
so before calling out any tr u should proly beat one 1v1 with
full hp ,not coming to only daily him
and from what i see people here talk nonsence, not sure what the reason is
(maybe because u whine too much on forums and dont play and dont actually look into YOUR class and character)
I myself have characters of all classes , and play both PVP and PVE with all of them ,
and no , i dont use same sets for pve and pvp , and i took the time to learn the mechanics of all classes.
With that being said , HRs are not OP or whatever , you just dont know how to play against them , and dont know what are their weaknesses, couple of examples:
1.GWF who will crit u 3 times with takedown>Frontline surge>IBS will Kill you doesnt matter what class you are or how much HP you have , you maybe lucky and can get out with 10% hp after this combo, and youll last the exact ammount of time that takes to a GWF get his frontline surge off CD and land it, or Savage advance.
2.CW who will combo you with proper pvp build (which happends to be DPS build as CWs cant last long even with defensive build)
and by combo I mean something like entagling force>Icy Rays>Shard>chill strike will have your hp down to 50% even if youre a GWF (not a 40k gwf who doesnt deal damage tho)
3.TR who will duelist flurry u 1 time , will have atleast 3 stacks of bleed on u , will unload all his cloud of steel on you , will leave you with 60-70% if youre tanky , 30-40% if youre squishy , assuming that he have bile enchant. He can repeat that rotation one more time in ~9 seconds(as this is shadow strike cd after his stealth and ITC ends , or even less if you will get cought in his flurry again and proc his cd reduction feat. After that all he has to do is Shocking execution , which will crit for atleast 20k with 3k power on you (assuming he didnt have vorpal enchantment for 35k or even more)
4.HR who put a thorn ward on a node and you need to hold it , will have ur defence reduced and ull notice damage increase on u after 5 stacks of thorn ward, and u will be stupid enough to stand still or waste ur dodges , HR will fox you to 40% HP too
5.GF is underpowered right now, but even GF can chain prone u into 4 seconds of immobility , or more if he have a daily (and he should if u blew his shield)
And one more important thing to point out: if you will have 2k defence , 2k deflect , and 35k HP , you WILL be tanky and it will take alot of effort to kill you doesnt matter what class are you, so if you waste or allocate your stats wrong its stats allocation problem and not the class being over or underpowered.
Maybe you do not create a petition to delete the class of the game? It is bad for PvE and PvP it is unfair ... If you do not kill an HR with another class you are bad or the guy is good. Simple.
Tired of killing TR'se other classes with my HR doing 1x1. When I die I know it was for a good player.
Is full of guys with high gearscore, tenacity and this pile of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> but do not know how to play.
crybabies
Your video is fun and nice but you know that your opponent are weak - yes ? You have build near by to my current so if you have good team you will see soon that this build is nice and fun but vs PUG...
It's mostly relative balance. Some classes have it easier, others have it tough.
The frustrations observed in this thread (IMO) mostly come from TRs and CWs in that these are essentially:
(1) "squishy" classes
(2) when fighting against a HR, usually turns into a "who hits the major CC power first?" fight
(3) or else, things go badly if (2) doesn't go well
(4) and things can still go bad even if (2) went well
(5) HRs have powers to enter stealth (bad for CWs)
(6) HRs have spammable attempt power that auto-detects stealth within range and hits(bad for TRs)
GFs and GWFs are mostly free from the above pointers in that;
(1) (despite being heavy melee) they have it really, really easy with a gazillion gap-closers
(2) can ignore CCs through well-timed blocks or just turn unstoppable
(3) have very high defensive stats/HP so can reliably withstand punishment even if constricted/grasped
(4) have multiple prones to attempt/spam even if one misses (...most of them being frickin' bullshi* ranged/AoE at that)
...and thus fighters can pretty much negate the HRs kiting attempts, close in and spam CCs even if the HR spams dodges, one of them hits and then starts the chain-prone/spam combos to deal hefty damage, and has much less consequences despite being frequently constricted/grasped.
For CWs and TRs, not so. They don't have as much CCs to attempt multiple times, so if the initial CC attempt fails during any of the 5~6 HR dodges with a slippery, irregular timing, the fight quickly turns in favor to the HRs -- on the contrary, TRs and CWs are actually more predictable with their dodge timing. CWs, at most 3, TRs at most 2.
In this case the long-ditance dodging of TRs and CWs actually makes it more predictable with a leisurely timing to exploit, whereas HR dodges are quick and consecutive, and often very difficul to find the "standing still" timing a CW and TR may exploit. As a matter of fact often in the initial opening of the fight, the only time when the HR briefly stands still, is when it is shooting Constricting Arrow -- one of the fastest attacks in the game. In many casses the CA will hit before any other attack attempt from the CW or TR .. and then ofcourse, the Fox's Shift combo, which is also very heavy hitting.
... now, TRs have an alternate choice to go perma or semi-perma in is build, as well as ITC to use, so they have it easier -- but for CWs... if they fail to connect with the CC, then they go straight downhilll from there.
So, IMO in terms of how easy it is to fight against HRs, my rating would be:
CW(hardest) < TR < GF < GWF(easiest)
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Thanks kweassa, well put. One thing though. If the cw starts his cc and hits on entangling force, the HR 9 out of 10 times is done. Thats the thing with CWs... they hit their cc first, and the target's usually done. Only the gwf can hold up to their assault, and thats by going unstoppable. A gf can block, yes, but only if he gets out of cc. HRs and GFs are the only 2 classes w/o a way out of cc(dont count cws, cuz thats just a mirror match).
iFixt4u....
Something to think about.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Everything you just said is silly. 99% of HR's don't run with any of those encounters on their bars. I use marauders escape/shift, constricting arrow and fox shift. The CC on constricting arrow is a joke. It lasts just long enough to gain some distance thats it. My splitshot crits for 2k if im lucky. The damage I put out is subpar at best. I'm build to survive and keep peoples attention.
Fix the ArP issue where 99,99% of the powers aren't affected by it and we're cool against low damage.