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TR PvE - is it possible to top the charts?
enjya
Member Posts: 23 Arc User
yo all
i am playing as TR for some time now and i have read some of builds posted here.
My question is why can't i dps more than gwf? I understand that on trash TR's are worthless but why cant i even top gwf on boss fights? It's really noticable on DK where medicore gwf's have more dmg on chart than me xd. So if anyone has a build that tops gwf's then i wuould like to test it.
in short my build is http://nwcalc.com/tr?b=pa3:27bm0g:15ycb0,13j3k3k:100000:150000:1uu5z1&h=1&p=min
on DK boss i use
enc: SS, LB, ITC/B&S
daily: LA
and duelist flurry
passives are skillful and invisible infiltrator
i stay almost all the time in stealth for CA and feat bonus
MY atributes:
19 str
12 con
26 dex
12 int
10 wis
15 cha
MY stats are:
5,3k power
4k crit
2,7k ArP
2k Rec
280 CA bonus from artifact
MY main set is old GG set with longer stealth and +5% dmg in stealth
i also have femorian weapon set with p. vorpal
My pets:
blinkdog +5% CA
fire archont +5% dmg when mob has lower than 30% hp
sword +5% crit severity
my best hits were 350k continous crits and 124k LB but still behind 2 gwfs xd
i am playing as TR for some time now and i have read some of builds posted here.
My question is why can't i dps more than gwf? I understand that on trash TR's are worthless but why cant i even top gwf on boss fights? It's really noticable on DK where medicore gwf's have more dmg on chart than me xd. So if anyone has a build that tops gwf's then i wuould like to test it.
in short my build is http://nwcalc.com/tr?b=pa3:27bm0g:15ycb0,13j3k3k:100000:150000:1uu5z1&h=1&p=min
on DK boss i use
enc: SS, LB, ITC/B&S
daily: LA
and duelist flurry
passives are skillful and invisible infiltrator
i stay almost all the time in stealth for CA and feat bonus
MY atributes:
19 str
12 con
26 dex
12 int
10 wis
15 cha
MY stats are:
5,3k power
4k crit
2,7k ArP
2k Rec
280 CA bonus from artifact
MY main set is old GG set with longer stealth and +5% dmg in stealth
i also have femorian weapon set with p. vorpal
My pets:
blinkdog +5% CA
fire archont +5% dmg when mob has lower than 30% hp
sword +5% crit severity
my best hits were 350k continous crits and 124k LB but still behind 2 gwfs xd
Post edited by enjya on
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GG set sucks for PvE, it's an outdated PvP set, hence it has no power but instead has lifesteal as a set bonus. get swashbuckling captains ideally, or maybe master assassin's if you want even bigger lashing crits following your dailies. could afford to chop 1k crit rating out as well, as it yields crit % at a weaker rate past 3,000 (though given that your recovery and armor pen are already high, i don't know what you would switch it into - power?).
our styles are pretty different though anyway.. i stealth no more than 20% of most fights, and in the boss fights that threaten my survival, more like 50-60% at most; remember that in groups you will almost always be getting combat advantage anyway due to being able to stand on the opposite side of the boss from other players.
if i remember correctly i had 2k power on my gg set and banelorne build then i changed to pve build + swash and i had something like 5k power but my hits were weaker with ArP capped and crit +50%
i tested it on the same party and same boss (DK) did 4-5 runs with gg set then on next gg switched for swash and changed build did 4-5 runs with the same party and saw lower hits or almost the same
but as u sugested i will try it again so i guess i need to revisit T2 dungeons :P
i also heard that deep gash is fixed from guild gwf
Paingiver is severely overrated.
Last time i won Paingiver with my TR was in MC. Every other dungeon is very AoE based, that said I think i was running with opressors and sentinels
just don't worry about it. Stack WR and dump DF into a target and it will die amazingly quickly.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Forsaken Angels Veteran Scorpion
Running these skills -
Trash clearing:
Blitz
Wicked Reminder
Dazing Strike/Smoke Bomb/Lashing Blade (prefer dazing but you need high crit chance to be outdpsing LB, and it isn't easy to land the AoE on all 3 targets)
Class features: Invisible Infiltrator, Tactics
Dailies: Lurker's Assault, Whirlwind of Blades
Single target (boss):
Wicked Reminder
Lashing Blade
ITC/Shadow Strike
Stats:
6k power (swash buff 7k)
50% critical chance
24.1% armor penetration
2k recovery (swash buff 3k, still pointless though)
Gear:
Fomorian weapons
Swashbuckling Captain
Cat (would go ioun stone if I had one or could be bothered to care about my TR, for more power, recov is trash here)
Ancient Excorcist's Necklace of Blessings
Pyrotechnic Bands x2
Smiting Nefarious Belt
Rank 7-8 Radiants and Darks
Perfect Vorpal and Soulforged
Attributes and race (not optimal, was **** when I rolled this):
22 str
24 dex
Race: elf (lewl that crit so op, not)
everything else is irrelevant (maybe was different, can't remember my rolls atm)
Feats: basically every damage feat, in last tier, Disciple of Strength maxed and 2 points in Scoundrel Training
Your damage will rely on CWs using singularity.
On singularity:
1) WB for II and power buff (LA works too), WR, Dazing Strike, (smoke bomb from stealth), WR, DF to aoe bleed, WR, hope someone can pull the mobs together again, repeat, blitz after WR is at 5 stacks and you have the OC buff or when it's on cd
2) WB for II and power buff (LA works too), WR from stealth, Dazing Strike, DF bleed as much as possible, WR spam, blitz spam once mobs split
There's some other rotations but that's the basics of it, WR has some incredible damage IF used right. I'll be honest here and say that WR has the possibility to be one of the strongest AoEs in the game due to its low cd (3 seconds) and lack of target cap. With perfect vorpal and a few debuffs, you will average 10-15k crits on WR (higher or lower depending on debuffs and buffs), every 3 seconds IDEALLY on a 15 mob singularity. 150k damage if you crit everything every 3 seconds, theoretically if you had more mobs bunched in the 3' cone then you could get up to 1mil per 3 seconds in theory (will never happen probably though). Compared to other classes it's not much, especially when you look at how situational it is, but it has potential and it's a good debuff for the party.
However, one of the other issues TR is so bad in pve (apart from abysmal aoe damage and nothing needing single target), is that we're a "damage per second" class, not burst, when it comes to aoe because of blitz, dazing and wr, our only aoe skills. Things are going to die before you have a chance to put noticeable DF bleeds on everything, and before you can build up your WR damage. Also because people generally suck (esp pugs) at keeping mobs together and all your damage (except blitz) relies on mobs being together.
Also I'm not particularly fond of WB because of the target cap and the low damage. It's depressing when it does a lot less damage than a CW encounter lol (you'll average 20k crits unless you're very good at checking situational stuff like OC). It's pretty much a free encounter, and still relatively more useful than LA since you're using encounters which have cooldowns, but LA is far better for boss fights.
At any rate, the conditions for you to top DPS charts:
1. vs lesser geared people.
2. vs abysmally skilled people (and even then you still won't outdps CWs/GWFs of similar gear)
This is the reason why no one wants a tr on their dungeon runs unless you're running with guildies or friends. Most people just look at the charts and say we're useless. The sad reality is until we get to the last boss, this is true. Our aoe is abysmal, and the scenario described above, using our pathetic aoes in a sing, is much more difficult due to kb and aoe damage dish out by the mobs.
Suggestion: Increase the range of our aoe skills. Make dr and ds have a bigger range and able to hit more targets, make blitz no target cap. I don't see how this affects pvp, but it would put us in the same range as other dps classes and not make people bail when the see a tr in the group.
Why are you not using wicked reminder? Any TR in PVE should always be using wicked reminder on boss. It's really the only thing you bring to the party and even that isn't all that much. The difference between being slightly useful or an anchor. TR will never top overall DPS in dungeons given similar gear/experience group. What you can do, is in a fight like valindra, or MC, look at damage done after getting to the boss. You should be top damage from the time you get to the boss until the boss is down. If not you were a wasted slot in the dungeon. Also your recovery is low and you should take the AP gain class feature. Bleeds in stealth and lurkers are most of your damage. Getting into lurkers as much as possible will increase your overall damage. It's a story of the tortoise and hare. You are trying to be hare (lol 124k max deeps!) when you want to be the tortoise.
In say VT, unless you are really trying to farm the dungeon super fast, it really doesn't matter what you take to get to the boss. A single TR is a nice addition there given they can stack wicked reminder and keep bleeds on boss. Also in that particular instance a TRs mobility can come in handy with an inexperienced group or in case mistakes are made.
Even a 17k GS TR will not outdps a 14k CW or HR that knows what they are doing (or maybe even not) through a dungeon. You could probably lower that to 12-13k if they had a perfect vorpal, but that is uncommon to have such a high level enchant with that low of a GS. Even if you are constantly using wicked reminder, dazing on singularities, and constantly keeping bleeds up it just isn't possible. Right after beta? Sure, but because of PVP TR damage hasn't gotten nerfed into oblivion. GG cryptic, GG.
But short answer - TR sucks thanks to PVP and the inability of Cryptic to balance classes for different content.
If anyone has anything to add just post your thoughts and i will be sure to read them, thx
Also - as a piece of advice, keep track of your DF bleeds. If you have a good crit bleed at 10 stacks, you can weave in a few Sly Flourishes instead of doing DF again and resetting the bleed. While DF isn't as good as it used to be, this way you can increase your DPS since most of your ST damage will come from the DF bleed.
they should add a single target category on the end of dungeon charts, I've seen a lot of talk in chat about the lack of usefulness of the TR and I believe a single target DPS category would eliminate that.
its hard to explain to an AOE player that they aren't out DPSing you single target. but if you watch she speed at which the bosses health bar drops with you on it as opposed to without you. and when you have no tank watch the bosses aggro stay on you, youll see it yourself.
Not agree! OK Im 18k dps TR and I can tell that all depends on the playing stile - positioning, calculating right time to start your encounters. I outbeat alot of 15k+ CW at all kind of dungeons.
In my guild party, i play with 16k+ CW and if we play focused, I make 5-15% less dmg (depends of the dungeon).
For example at Karru, until the area of first small dragons (i forgot their names) i usually make more dmg. At ToS and VT i make more or less than 5% dmg than him.
Something about my character - Drow / -10% of target defense/
At boss fights i use ItC, LB, Smoke bomb OR Wicked reminder OR Delf Strike-(only at VT and rarely at MC)
Dailies - SE and Lurker's Assault.
Some stats unbuf: 7k+ power, 3,9k+ crit, 2,9k+ AP, 2,6k+ recovery, 2,4k defense, 1,5k LS.
I play with full set of swash = 1000 power and 1000 recovery more in every battle.
Stealth is used only to positioning at the right place for combat advantage.
GS honestly means nothing. Note that willsommers said a "14k CW or HR that knows what they are doing". I've outdps'd CWs quite easily on my 14.1k GS TR (even before the shard nerf, when CWs did even more damage), but said CWs were (imo) scrubs that sucked at their class. Or at the very least, I outgeared them by a lot.
You will never outdps a GWF, HR, or CW with similar skill and gear. Not even close. TR damage just isn't enough.
I also noticed yesterday on VT runs that i was second in dps after gwf, he had 18 mil and me 10 mil if i remmember good. But that only means that cw's on that runs were so-so since i usually am higher only than dc xD.
I finally got full swash set and full best pvp set for testing. First i will go with swash + dps build like u advised then after a week i will change to pvp set + my present build and of course i will compare them. But now i ask myself how am i going to compare them? Should i only look and LB highest crits? Or maybe look at charts and see if i do more dmg overall? Or maybe combat log? Are there any plugins or programs to monitor my dps on dungeons?
you can download ACT ( Advanced Combat Tracker) and the NW client for it. it works as an external dmg meter and parses the combat log for you. there is no real way to know your personal DPS either single target or AoE without it. The biggest thing to remember is that the burst damage helps but your sustained damage is king in a boss fight, things like DF that fill the screen with numbers. some bosses will stay on you when stealthed others will not, the ones that do can be held while maintaining combat advantage for a good part of the fight. I have yet to play with a GWF who can tank for me, that does not mean they arent out there, GWFs do have skills like GFs that generate high threat but most of those seem to be AoE threat generation. IDK if they can generate high single target aggro without being top Damage on that mob or not. I do know however that a good GF can hold a mob and even take it from me if I attack first without doing a lot of damage, that is their job.
we have one job in this game, kill bosses we have to excel at it or others with more versatility will take it from us. if there were more real boss fights ( where the boss is more than the adds) or more large single target trash mobs we might top the meters, but the devs here have seen fit to throw a ton of trash at us rather than make the boss harder.
its getting better since the introduction of MC and VT and I hope IWD holds more real boss fights in store for us, but in all honesty until the need for high single target DPS becomes more apparent our class will not be seen as a necessity.
thx malphaeous for info on ATC
Few CW know how to play their class properly, most don't. CW is not a weak class. It's just...complicated. When they do know their asses from their heads, they are REALLY INCREDIBLY GOOD YOU CAN'T EVEN HOPE TO BEAT 'EM. Just my two cents.
CW requires a massive amount of brains to figure.
TR requires excellent timing and hand-eye coordination.
they seem to have been moving towards this since MC. but topping the meter doesnt make a CW really incredibly good or even smart. it makes them an AOE class who knows they are an AoE class.
In WoW the rogue was also the king of single target DPS, but as the dungeons got more trash mob dependent the rogue saw lower spots on the meters in places like Molten Core and BWL the rogue could top the charts because even the trash was big and had a lot of HP and you seldom got them in large quantities. The truth is that if you read the class descriptions the CW isnt even a DPS class they are a controller which means that their job is primarily CC. but given the games current 5 man dungeon template and the great amount of trash in the dungeons we need the CWS to do big damage.
The meters also show damage above and beyond actual damage taken by the mob. Most of the small trash mobs in epic dungeons have around 5-10k HP and can be one shoted by almost anyone, if you do 25k with LB on a mob with 5k HP you really only did 5k. now multiply this by all the mobs in the AOE radius, or all the mobs being thrown over the side taking massive amounts of damage. this means the meters are in fact inaccurate. and they will always be this way.
the truth is the devs did their best to make the dungeons less dependent on group dynamic than other games and to a large extent succeeded but the end result was that one class became more desirable than others and the other classes became more of a fill out the group because you don't have enough CWs kind of thing.
i now have full swash with esteena build
6,5k power
3,3k crit
2,5k ArP
1,9k Recovery
Skills on mobs:
enc: WR, LB, Blitz / passive: tactics, S.I. / wirlwind for daily
Skills on boss:
enc: WR, LB, ITC / passive: I.I. , S.I. / lurker for daily
I tried doing what u wrote about WR and i guess this only works for random pt made from lfg since almost noone in my guild uses sing on mobs xd they prefer to use oppressive force since it makes bigger dmg but when they did use sing by mistake i could hit all mobs with WR. Also 1-3 boss fights are soo quick that i dont have the time to stack 5 WR on boss even used in stealth. Another thing to note is that its impossible to have 5 stacks of WR on last boss there all the time. Most of the time on boss i didnt even have the time to use LB or even daily if i wanted to have WR on him thanks to DF "auto move to boss breath attack" animation. Gennerally i think i am too pessimistic right now to this new style so i will have to play with it for a while also i think i had more dmg on charts with this new build.
this 3 runs i was dead last but oh well might as well post results
run 1 / 2 / 3
my 10,6 mil / 11,2 mil / 12,4 mil
nr 1 in party 26 mil / 24 mil / 22 mil
in pt was 1 tr, 1 gwf, 2 cw and 1 dc so i was on 4 place all the time
For example, my usual party members are 2xCW, 1xGF, 1xGWF. Their opinion is that better to use Smoke Bomb at Karru, ToS and SP, and WR at FH, CN, VT and Malabog. In this manner (SB + CW's Steal Time) we manage to make almost perma stun on controlled mobs. Smoke bomb works perfect at first and second boss fights, when spawning lot of mobs ( exception VT and MC-malabog king )
At final boss fights, I use bomb only at ToS ( we have too much dps, so better to stun those ninjas and spiders cuz they make huge dmg to CWs).
Smoke Bomb? sry but if trash dies in few sec the same with bosses exept last and for the last i use ITC then i dont think i need it :P.
Another issue is perma controll on mobs and i ask who needs this? There is nothing more boring than clearing dungeon without any kind of fun actions like agroing all mobs to next boss and haveing fun killing them in all that chaos where u can laugh at ur guildies for dieing like randoms xD. But i also understand that perfect control on mobs is a must for maxing dps or fast runs for AD.
Expect to be below AOE DPS classes always on overall damage. You should beat them on bosses. By bosses I don't mean silly little "elite mobs", but real ones like in MC/VT/etc. This wasn't the case during Beta (where TRs would regularly top DPS charts), but TRs were nerfed into the ground due to PVP QQ. If you got into other threads you'll see PVP whiners asking for more TR nerfs in damage, stealth, who knows everything. Yet that same CW can go into PVE and be the best class. Devs balance this game solely off PVP and it's getting old.
Dazing strike is another one to keep in during trash clears. doesn't have the downtime of lashing blade and even without sing you should be able to hit 3+ mobs with it. With your setup (assuming pvorpal) you should get crit of 25k-30k+ on each dazing strike/mob.
I run a lot of DK runs with sub-par class compositions and other dungeons. No CW, no DC, smokebomb can be nice to have. Roll 2 HR, 2 GWF, and TR in T2 can get interesting. No faceroll CW+DC groups.
Another difference to my build is almost no stealth throu the fight and i mean last boss CN. In my build i had stealth almost all the time so i had only crits in LB but right now i only have it on start of battle witch is annoying xd. on boss fights i get small dmg all the time so my stealth metter fills up very slowly so my question is should i wait for stealth with LB? or just use it when not on cd? I thought about doing tab -> DF -> LB combo but then my LB is just wasting time waiting for stealth to fill up xd and useing it without crit hurts my dps :<
Another thing i have noted but offtopic LA can actually be a means of defence since it can teleport u behind or near target espescially good when tanking boss and he makes a swing attack then u just use LA and u stand a bit inside a boss and he doesnt hit u :P
as far as LB use it when not on CD but Don't interrupt your DF with it, DF is your biggest dmg spam WR between DFs keep a full 5 stacks on the boss you dont hurt your DPS with LB if it is between flurries esp if you have around 50% crit and yeah LA does work as a mini teleport the only place ive found that to be bad is on the brain at the end of DV IDK if they have fixed this or not because here I point at the ground to LA but I've been teleported inside the brain ( Which means in the acid) and been unable to get out... you can also use BB as a defensive, I used to do this when I first started playing BB when my pot timer is down by time its over I can pot, but I onlt suggest that if you are having trouble staying alive, the boss goes crazy even though you are still on him and might kill someone else or move to a place that you don't want him ( like in the middle of all the trash mob AoE) I do play with BB in T1s because its fun , and I love the evil laugh. but any place I have to be at my best I keep LB, ITC and WR for encounters, LA and SE for Dailies and DF with CoS for at wills. COS isn't a lot but it lets me do some DMg while waiting for the red circle to go away if ITC is down.
as far as balancing based on PvP its common practice, once a game gets going , people start QQing and the devs listen, happened in WoW too. the funny thing is , the majority of this game is PVE, like in WoW but the bad players whine and the devs listen. I guess you cant expect much more. BTW it wasnt just in Beta , i started at launch and when I hit 60 it was rare that I didn't top the meters, even with my build being slightly off and a lower dmg choice of powers. now its rare that I DO top the meters, occasionally I will, I assume I had a good run while the CWs had a bad one. but there again my CWs tend to kill everything and throw nothing over the edge ( more fun that way, and more loot).
W/o deep gash TR will do the highest single target dmg again and "TR on boss" and "LF TR" phrases may go back to chat like in mod1...
Destroyer GWF getting damage buff. Deep gash change aimed at crappy sent builds. Even still, if TR did a few % more damage no one would take a TR over a GWF, because 90% of dungeon is not the boss. So shave a few minutes off a boss fight (maybe), or save much more time clearing to the boss?
Maybe in short dungeons like DK or in dungeons where boss fight is taking a significant part of the whole run like in VT maybe TRs shall be wanted again over Gwfs.