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Haflings - the PvP Master Race, Deflect, Tenacity and Crowd Control
pers3phone
Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
I suppose it's about time we see this topic.
Let's describe the "issue" a bit.
- halflings get the following racials:
Nimble Reaction: Your small stature and quick movements grant 3% chance to Deflect incoming attacks.
Bold: Your fearless nature increases your resistance to Crowd Control effects by 10%.
The resistance to CC is translating on both FULL RESISTS (aka, shard goes through the guy, and he doesn't even fall to the ground), and shortened CC duration as well. I couldn't reproduce the shard full resist against a HR, only GWFs, for now.
- deflected CC encounters/dailies means your CC is half. That means Repel pushes somebody half the distance if it's deflected. Entangling lasts only a very short while if deflected. And so on.
This is a bug of sorts; I will quote a developer statement on it:
- Tenacity further decreases CC duration by approx 20%+ for geared persons
Honorable mention: Wisdom
So what this translates to in practice, during PvP games? Talking here from the perspective of CW with Orb of Imposition (for testing purposes) slotted, to extend the CC as much as possible.
- Repel = USELESS against Tenacity geared halflings. If this halfling happens to be a high deflect build such as some GWFs, it's so bad that all that you can do is stun the guy for a fraction of second.
- shard combo almost impossible to land on Tenacity geared halflings.
- Improved shard combo, still almost impossible to land. What's "improved" shard combo? You first cast Icy Rays, to make sure that person is stuck in place, to compensate for the short EF duration. Well, guess what, a Tenacity geared halfling can many times move out of Icy Rays and Entangle before shard can land.
- Chill Strike is no longer a CC, basically
- full resists of FLS, Takedown prones and other such effects
Basically, this amounts to halflings being so good for PvP that they make every other race obsolete. The increased damage other races might have is NOT compensating one bit for the CC resistances.
Just to clarify, this is not a nerf halflings topic. I'm leveling two myself.
This is a topic so we can discuss if these racials, in combination with Tenacity and the Deflect CC bug (developer acknowledged) are something we really want in the game. It's pretty **** bad when a single race is viable. Every race should have significant advantages and disadvantages. As things stand now, every other race is at a significant disadvantage against halflings. Yes, it was like this even before the PvP patch, but was tolerable - because of Tenacity not being present. Now with Tenacity FURTHER reducing CC, things are just dumb.
Let's describe the "issue" a bit.
- halflings get the following racials:
Nimble Reaction: Your small stature and quick movements grant 3% chance to Deflect incoming attacks.
Bold: Your fearless nature increases your resistance to Crowd Control effects by 10%.
The resistance to CC is translating on both FULL RESISTS (aka, shard goes through the guy, and he doesn't even fall to the ground), and shortened CC duration as well. I couldn't reproduce the shard full resist against a HR, only GWFs, for now.
- deflected CC encounters/dailies means your CC is half. That means Repel pushes somebody half the distance if it's deflected. Entangling lasts only a very short while if deflected. And so on.
This is a bug of sorts; I will quote a developer statement on it:
gentlemancrush wrote:There is currently a bug that allows you to Deflect incoming controls as well, which is giving you much more resistance to controls than is intended on average. We are currently investigating fixes to this bug, and I don't have an eta on it at this time, but we are aware of the issue and are working on a fix. This should prove to be a huge QoL improvement for all control effects. They will be much more consistent against targets because they will not suddenly have an additional 50% (or 75%) resistance applied to them suddenly.
- Tenacity further decreases CC duration by approx 20%+ for geared persons
Honorable mention: Wisdom
So what this translates to in practice, during PvP games? Talking here from the perspective of CW with Orb of Imposition (for testing purposes) slotted, to extend the CC as much as possible.
- Repel = USELESS against Tenacity geared halflings. If this halfling happens to be a high deflect build such as some GWFs, it's so bad that all that you can do is stun the guy for a fraction of second.
- shard combo almost impossible to land on Tenacity geared halflings.
- Improved shard combo, still almost impossible to land. What's "improved" shard combo? You first cast Icy Rays, to make sure that person is stuck in place, to compensate for the short EF duration. Well, guess what, a Tenacity geared halfling can many times move out of Icy Rays and Entangle before shard can land.
- Chill Strike is no longer a CC, basically
- full resists of FLS, Takedown prones and other such effects
Basically, this amounts to halflings being so good for PvP that they make every other race obsolete. The increased damage other races might have is NOT compensating one bit for the CC resistances.
Just to clarify, this is not a nerf halflings topic. I'm leveling two myself.
This is a topic so we can discuss if these racials, in combination with Tenacity and the Deflect CC bug (developer acknowledged) are something we really want in the game. It's pretty **** bad when a single race is viable. Every race should have significant advantages and disadvantages. As things stand now, every other race is at a significant disadvantage against halflings. Yes, it was like this even before the PvP patch, but was tolerable - because of Tenacity not being present. Now with Tenacity FURTHER reducing CC, things are just dumb.
Post edited by pers3phone on
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Honestly, I'm pretty sure that the Dwarf racial is just better. After a lot of testing, I don't think Bold works vs anything except prone and push. This makes it 50% as effective as the Stand Your Ground. 3% deflect is good, but come on it is 3%. Not sure if the DoT resist works.
+2 CON & +2 STR/WIS is also quite good.
/halfling
It's not crazy enough to compensate on your lack of CC when facing Tenacity geared halflings. From personal experience, a geared halfling CW will escape your shard combo and perform his, and you will not escape as a tiefling. If you try to switch shard off for something else, it won't do you any good, because... you have no rotations to burst down the enemy CW (keep in mind, geared PvPer, 35K+ HP 20% Tenacity... and Defense/Deflect as well). He will take what you cast at him, start his shard rotation, and you will be dead
And it's not even a CW issue. As I said, halflings can and will fully resist GF/GWF prones many times.
BTW.
Int/Cha for a Wizard means no Con. Tiefling usually means low max possible Con anyway, since most rolled for max Int/Cha. You're welcome to adventure in PvP with lower HP than others, but it's not gonna be pretty
Heard about dwarves CC res as well. Need to test it sometimes (and now it's hard as hell to test stuff up sigh). There just aren't many dwarves around.
5% adds up. That plus Tempest Magic feat means that I keep doing more damage the closer they are to death. Not the mention the 5% power drain. Means that I am doing more and taking less. Is take that any day over CC immunity!
On top of that, I haven't noticed Halflings getting out of shard any better than anyone else. I use RoE of tab so it works for me. That is the point of the races. To have a choice. Tankiness? Or damage?
Glass cannon is not PvP-viable.
I'm not a glass cannon.. I have 18 CON... But I do a lot
Of damage.
I wouldn't worry about it. Cryptic knows that the races are balanced. It's just certain people that refuse other options.
The races are balanced for pve, not pvp. If your focus is pvp you roll halfling or maybe dwarf. There is no reason to roll anything else. Your tiefling example is frankly delusional as you are nothing but kill score fodder for a good player on another team with that build. You are a glass cannon and that is not a viable way to play pvp vs more than uncoordinated ungeared pugs.
"hey, let me heal u." *makes entire team take 10% more damage*
I don't know man.. I fight a lot of people with guild tags and I do pretty well.
Thanks. This is pretty much the truth. CC resistance is a HUGE advantage. If I cast my biggest nuke on you, and you resisted, I have no prone for 14 secs
Killing pugs is nothing... zero... nada. Yesterday I was in a few matches where I was 20/30-0 and got reported a few times for "using hacks" (shard combo). In a few matches I got tells from other CWs to stay over the match and explain to them how is it possible to be such a "pro" (in their view). But when I met serious teams I got cleared in 3-4 secs, and my tiefling couldn't profit from its DPS superiority, since I couldn't land shards and CC properly the geared Tenacity halflings I met.
There's a disclaimer in my post. This isn't about nerfing anything
This is intended to be solely a discussion about race advantages in PvP, how significant they are and if it's OK that race should provide such advantages over adversaries. As I said, I am leveling 2 halflings now, one HR and one GWF. Obviously I wouldn't want them nerfed. Yet, we need to take a look at how these things work together in PvP (deflect/halfling/Tenacity), because as things are now, I don't think it's intended that so much CC resistance should be available to chars.
The situation is mirror to how certain classes are useless in PvE, because of CW/GWF superiority.
Needless to say some balancing should be performed.
Again... to clarify:
This is a discussion about how much CC resistance is offered by halfling/Tenacity/deflects.
"Cryptic knows," must be a new oxymoron. If they knew then a lot of the stuff that went live wouldn't have, and if they actually listened to players who knew what they were talking about, changes would be made. I feel bad for guys like ayroux who spent so much time testing and gave so much constructive feedback, only to have it deleted or ignored.
I used to pvp on a half elf, it was NOT ok
rip sephine the pvp dc with 42 deaths
while feedback is welcomed, it is not the sole source of what final decisions are based on. so many assumptions are made about internal processes that will never be made public, but that is how all companies operate. even stock holders are given an overview, not detailed descriptions of internal processes.
and nothing is deleted from these forums. the community team are not authorized to delete posts. even if a post is deleted, it can still be read by staff. if a post is edited, the original text is viewable by staff. if a post is moved to an area that is not public, it is still viewable by staff. there is nothing that the moderation team can do that can't be viewed by PWE staff. yes, that includes the dev team.
if anyone has any further questions about moderation or the rules, please do not reply to this post. send a PM to any of the community team to discuss it.
A post that is only viewable to staff(paid or not) is essentially the same thing as deleting the post to the general population of this forum.
generally posts that are removed to a non-public area are exploits, mass spam and otherwise inappropriate for the forums. other moderated posts are either moved to the lower depths or to a more appropriate thread.
again, if you have any comments about moderation, do so via PM. my apologies to pers3phone for this off-topic discussion.
I will try to dig for the dev post about this topic where this was confirmed and will update if I find it. Somewhere in Preview shard notes or discussions pre-pvp patch.
Halflings can FULLY RESIST CC - no deflect needed. Tested.
Read that dev post about Deflect and CC, hope they correct it soon, the full resist still remains though.
I'm pretty sure I've seen this happen with a CW or DC resisting a bull charge prone when they haven't dodged. It makes me wonder exactly what the point of having the power on my bar is...
Here is some basic testing that I did for the purpose of getting dev feedback (which I never did get).
tldr:
Any race can ignore cc due to WIS, but halfling and Dwarf do it more often.
Halfling racial only works on push + prone.
Deflecting a cc will reduce the duration of cc by your deflect severity %.
Tested with Shard, Repel, Icy Rays...
Without these encounters being deflected, the halfing was able to fully resist the CC effect. However, this fully resist happens rarely (I'd say maybe 1/15 times or so).
What happens way more often is deflected attacks that half the CC duration/effect, together with Wisdom, racial and Tenacity. This results in halflings being able to escape combos that work on other races, purely because the CC duration is so **** short.
For example:
- before Tenacity, a CW could usually perform EF/Shard combo, especially with Orb of Imposition and full arcane stacks. Didn't work on halflings - they were out of EF fast enough to dodge 90% of the times. So, you had to Icy Rays them first to make sure they're stuck in place, and now shard worked OK.
- after Tenacity, it's pretty much impossible to perform the Icy Rays/EF/Shard combo on geared halflings. They are out of CC way before shard lands, and able to CC you instead, while you just lost all your encounters...
- there's nothing another class can bring to compensate the lack of CC in this case. Reality is you wasted full rotation without landing the nuke, and you're about to be in a world of pain very soon as you cannot get out of CC fast enough.
Again, as kune mentioned, dwarves might be in the same position or even better, I just haven't got to test it yet.
Great and detailed post there kune
So the CC is usually halved on deflect because many players have 50% Deflect Severity? Makes sense. Didn't know.
...or stun, daze (if stun/daze are even different), chill, or freeze.
yeah, anyway. I also note that critical attacks add +x% duration / effect to cc. I don't think it is your crit severity %, though I may be wrong.
The added duration / effect does not seem to affect prone.
shard goes through the guy
Really guys, stop making QQing threads of everything, such OMG a TR just killed me twice! Lets make a new thread!
Omg that CW shifted 5 times in few seconds! New QQing thread!
Omg I can't kill that tanky GWF! QQing thread!
Now also a thread about races.. really, you guys are very funny ^.^
Youtube: Trickster Rogue - Pug Match @ 1 vs 1
Screenshot zone:
Click: I Bet 99% of people CAN'T screenshot this
Just happened a few times 3 days ago or so in a game, couldn't believe my eyes. And not just once. Basically the graphical effect from IR appeared on the player, but he kept moving...
I think chill stacks and freeze always work, at least from what I saw.
If you have a CW friend and a halfing, you can test it yourself. Might take a few times. Shard goes through, the halfling will not be proned.
Doesn't seem like a "QQ Thread" to me. You essentially have 2 choices for a race if you want maximum effect for a pvp character. That is an issue. OP said this is not a nerf halfling thread, and nerfing halfling would be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. The next few races they add should have pvp focused stats and racial abilities.
All of my pvp characters are halfling.
Halflings PVP? CC/Deflect (confirmed)
TRs PVP? Shox (not confirmed as a bug, but would be 'shocking' if it was working as intended)
GWF PVE? Student & Deep Gash (confirmed)
CW PVP? ArPen (not confirmed but obvious)
pers3phone is experienced and his claims may still be true once this is all fixed, but it's kinda hard to discuss a system plagued by gamebreaking bugs, because nobody know how the real balancing is supposed to feel.
I thought that maybe diversifying the racials could be OK. So one could pick a set of racials that are best suited for PvP or PvE when they start their char. Some racials are really dumb and need full rework (you recover at campfire twice as quickly... OK lol).
Problem with halflings is that soon everybody that PvPs will run one. Or maybe dwarf but they are kinda ugly
Of course halflings should not be nerfed lol, usually nerfing is almost always a step in the wrong direction and messes with months of investment of people's time&money. These things should be respected not played with.
That is also very true. Bug fixing first, then we see again.