No, there is not a good reason to leave a match (real life stuff excepted of course). Nobody is forcing you to queue up. Somebody leaves your team? Tough. Getting roflstomped by a better team? Tough. Take your medicine and stand on the ledge and look at the people who will win the match and wait for it to be over. I'm a casual player 2-3 hrs a week so don't think my time in game ain't valuable. And I hate having to stand there and wait for a match to be over! Spineless coward quitters....
I'm puzzled. Can you explain to me the difference between abandoning the game by standing in spawn and abandoning the game by leaving?
Your just not listening. As long as one team can get roflstomped and gain little to nothing there will be leavers. Period. No penalty will change that. At least give a good reward and folks will stand there and let you roflstomp them.
Or they could give the leaver penalty teeth. Leave 5 matches in a month = permaban
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited March 2014
I love all the macho negative attitudes toward quitters, the name calling especially. It's a simple cost benefit analysis based decision, not something that takes courage. It's a video game. If there is no benefit to playing out a match, many people will simply leave and go do something that they do gain a benefit from. Simple as that. You can talk all your internet tough guy talk, as if that has anything to do with the reality of the situation if it makes you feel better, but you will always have people who quit if there is no incentive for them to stay.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
Or they could give the leaver penalty teeth. Leave 5 matches in a month = permaban
And you'll end up with minimal people playing pvp, and a dev team who will soon realize that supporting pvp no longer makes financial sense. It's absurd to drive away the community in an attempt to force them to act the way you want. Figure out why they don't, fix it in a positive manner if you want to cultivate and grow that community and end up with a more rewarding experience overall, plus make more money as a developer.
Of course, it makes many people feel good about themselves to take such a hard stance over something so trivial.
And you'll end up with minimal people playing pvp, and a dev team who will soon realize that supporting pvp no longer makes financial sense. It's absurd to drive away the community in an attempt to force them to act the way you want. Figure out why they don't, fix it in a positive manner if you want to cultivate and grow that community and end up with a more rewarding experience overall, plus make more money as a developer.
Of course, it makes many people feel good about themselves to take such a hard stance over something so trivial.
Carrots only work when it's not on a self indulgent child. Sometimes you have to force someone to behave in the right way by any means nessecary before they can learn.
As for the game slowly dying if they force people away, it's quickly dying from the people quitting now. People leave every day from leavers. I can barely get the energy to log in right now because of them. If this problem isn't gone soon the game is dead.
Carrots only work when it's not on a self indulgent child. Sometimes you have to force someone to behave in the right way by any means nessecary before they can learn.
As for the game slowly dying if they force people away, it's quickly dying from the people quitting now. People leave every day from leavers. I can barely get the energy to log in right now because of them. If this problem isn't gone soon the game is dead.
Maybe you should take some of your own advice and man up.
Carrots only work when it's not on a self indulgent child. Sometimes you have to force someone to behave in the right way by any means nessecary before they can learn.
As for the game slowly dying if they force people away, it's quickly dying from the people quitting now. People leave every day from leavers. I can barely get the energy to log in right now because of them. If this problem isn't gone soon the game is dead.
People quitting was not driving any mass of people away from the game. Poor PvP implementation, then and now, sure.
I am a very firm believer that it was a bad move to put a penalty for leaving in place until PvP was fixed and operating well on it's own merits. Positive reinforcement would have fixed most of the leaving issues, a proper match making system should fix more of them. Then, after it's all working and the community and devs have had the time to properly gauge their effectiveness and impact on PvP, if leaving was still an issue, I would support a penalty.
People quitting was not driving any mass of people away from the game. Poor PvP implementation, then and now, sure.
I am a very firm believer that it was a bad move to put a penalty for leaving in place until PvP was fixed and operating well on it's own merits. Positive reinforcement would have fixed most of the leaving issues, a proper match making system should fix more of them. Then, after it's all working and the community and devs have had the time to properly gauge their effectiveness and impact on PvP, if leaving was still an issue, I would support a penalty.
Positive reinforcement is what most people cry but they don't have a good memory when it comes to this games history with it. The reward for losing used to be much higher, problem is that people then afk'd in the spawn and never left the camp as afk farming was the fastest way to get glory. The rewards for losing, what you call positive reinforcement, were lowered on purpose to remove another blight. You can't add positive reinforcement without going back to that system of bots.
All you are doing is forcing people to do something they dont want to do.
Nah, they queued for it. All a penalty is doing is forcing them to finish what they started, and not ruin the experience for everyone else. They voluntarily joined the pvp, and pvp isn't like pve where you've got a very reasonable chance of steamrolling everything you fight. The whole *point* is that you're playing real people who could honestly stomp a mudhole into you if you're not paying attention.
I love all the macho negative attitudes toward quitters, the name calling especially. It's a simple cost benefit analysis based decision, not something that takes courage. It's a video game. If there is no benefit to playing out a match, many people will simply leave and go do something that they do gain a benefit from. Simple as that. You can talk all your internet tough guy talk, as if that has anything to do with the reality of the situation if it makes you feel better, but you will always have people who quit if there is no incentive for them to stay.
I'd been here in closed beta, as a pvp freak. I love pvp in just about any game, and I quit this one a few months back. IRL reasons, but there was also the fact that I'd sometimes wait for up to an hour to get a team that wasn't me and 2 other people, because half of my queue quit when they saw that we had a GWF on the team or something similar. (I still find it hard to believe that this was once an issue) I got to the point where I just flat out gave up, because people with opportunistic attitudes would just decide on the spot that the pvp wasn't worth doing. I'm sorry, when a game mode has moments when you can wait over an hour to get a proper team together just to do one small chunk of it? There's a serious problem there. *Especially* when I'd encounter the same players the next time around, and they'd do the same thing, on the other side. Why the hell even queue if you're not going to play? Why pvp if you can't take the thought that you might lose, too? It's that medal for effort, there are no losers, you're all special snowflakes thing rearing its head again. Why the hell compete if you're afraid to lose? Why even play that game mode if you're just going to leave, and punish everyone else, because you can't stick out a 15 minute match?
I think "not being a jerk to everyone around you" is pretty freaking valid incentive to stay. Then again, I'm not a selfish player who doesn't realize you can still do well in pvp if you're losing.
Is it a difficult concept to understand that if you increase rewards for people, so you can encourage them to stay, you're also one way or another going to increase the incentives they have to quit and find an optimum run? The only other way to fix it would be to make the loser reward a lot closer to the winner reward, and wtf is the point of winning or even trying if you're getting the same things either way?
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
Carrots only work when it's not on a self indulgent child. Sometimes you have to force someone to behave in the right way by any means nessecary before they can learn.
As for the game slowly dying if they force people away, it's quickly dying from the people quitting now. People leave every day from leavers. I can barely get the energy to log in right now because of them. If this problem isn't gone soon the game is dead.
wow good thing you arnt running things this game wouldnt exist.
Forcing players to fight lopsided battles for either side isnt very bright.
I wouldnt blame anyone from leaving if its a complete blowout either way.I leave when we are winning and its just to easy.
I get bored with lopsided fights.I want competition for the weak unorganized pug team and the strong organized premade team.
why anyone would wait below the spawn with 5 guys then just insta kill any one who drops doesnt know or care about competition.
they are most of the problem in the first place.
The leaver penalty wont fix anything and should never be in any game ever. what we need is a stayers reward(for participating NOT standing at campfire).add the pug and premade queue and you have some competition.
Only 1 in 10 games is actually competition the way its set up now.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
Positive reinforcement is what most people cry but they don't have a good memory when it comes to this games history with it. The reward for losing used to be much higher, problem is that people then afk'd in the spawn and never left the camp as afk farming was the fastest way to get glory. The rewards for losing, what you call positive reinforcement, were lowered on purpose to remove another blight. You can't add positive reinforcement without going back to that system of bots.
If you read back through my post history, you would see that there is nothing wrong with my knowledge of the history of this game, nor am I "crying" for the good old days of a straight higher reward for losing, so how about you stick to specifics of the idea's I've posted instead of creating your own points to argue against.
As a refresher...
Rewards based for different activities on the losing side, including time spent fighting on point, overall damage done, overall damage taken and other indicators to show that a player was actively participating in the match, not camping out. I've also advocated for boosting this reward based on a multiplier of (average opponent GS/player GS) so players fighting against much higher geared opponents get a higher reward (to offset the likelyhood that they score fewer points against said players). However, that last point becomes less important as the matchmaking system begins to function properly.
There are ways of rewarding players that lose without encouraging players to camp. Ways to encourage players to actively participate.
Leavers often leave to find a new match (a better matched match), instead of a penalty you simply should have made it impossible for people to leave while the match is still going. If they want to stop playing they will stop playing, penalizing them far beyond the length of the PvP match isn't going to help the rest of the players. Or allow them to leave and put a "Return to Instance" button at the top and don't allow queuing till the pvp match is over. If there's proper matchmaking there are less leavers and it wouldn't be as much of an issue that it requires a 'penalty' in the first place.
The claim there is never a reason to leave baffles me. Gamers quit a game/match when it's not fun. It's not about losing, it's about not being able to have a good/fair/fun match. Penalizing gamers for quitting something that isn't fun isn't going to make it any more fun.
It's not as much an issue in dungeons because others can queue in, that actually works pretty well, always get a healer or GF when you need one.
A large % of people in PvP are not there because they love PvP, they are there because they want something that can only be obtained by doing PvP, be it the AD daily, or something else. Because they are there for other reasons they are far more likely to abandon the match because they are reward oriented, less reward = less reason to stay.
I understand the problem that we had previously, it was too easy to get decent glory from sitting at the fire, and that had to change. But the system we currently have is not much better.
They should have some sort of reward tied to the total points your team acquires modified by the length of the match and the individual performance of the player. I am unsure what would be the right formula, but I am sure something can be worked out. It is extremely frustrating to be in a match for 45 minutes, get a decent number of kills and assists (like 20k/30a), cap many points, get killed a lot, lose and get 200 glory. Which is what is currently happening. It is even worse when your team can not even cap a single point nor get a single kill. Then you are in for a long uphill fight with no reward, it is then that you will see a LOT of people decide to take the penalty and bail out. And I don't blame them.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
Nah, they queued for it. All a penalty is doing is forcing them to finish what they started, and not ruin the experience for everyone else. They voluntarily joined the pvp, and pvp isn't like pve where you've got a very reasonable chance of steamrolling everything you fight. The whole *point* is that you're playing real people who could honestly stomp a mudhole into you if you're not paying attention.
I'd been here in closed beta, as a pvp freak. I love pvp in just about any game, and I quit this one a few months back. IRL reasons, but there was also the fact that I'd sometimes wait for up to an hour to get a team that wasn't me and 2 other people, because half of my queue quit when they saw that we had a GWF on the team or something similar. (I still find it hard to believe that this was once an issue) I got to the point where I just flat out gave up, because people with opportunistic attitudes would just decide on the spot that the pvp wasn't worth doing. I'm sorry, when a game mode has moments when you can wait over an hour to get a proper team together just to do one small chunk of it? There's a serious problem there. *Especially* when I'd encounter the same players the next time around, and they'd do the same thing, on the other side. Why the hell even queue if you're not going to play? Why pvp if you can't take the thought that you might lose, too? It's that medal for effort, there are no losers, you're all special snowflakes thing rearing its head again. Why the hell compete if you're afraid to lose? Why even play that game mode if you're just going to leave, and punish everyone else, because you can't stick out a 15 minute match?
I think "not being a jerk to everyone around you" is pretty freaking valid incentive to stay. Then again, I'm not a selfish player who doesn't realize you can still do well in pvp if you're losing.
Is it a difficult concept to understand that if you increase rewards for people, so you can encourage them to stay, you're also one way or another going to increase the incentives they have to quit and find an optimum run? The only other way to fix it would be to make the loser reward a lot closer to the winner reward, and wtf is the point of winning or even trying if you're getting the same things either way?
It goes both ways. Players spent too many times in severely lopsided matches having THEIR experience in PvP ruined because they end up fighting groups where everyone is effectively 10 levels higher than they are because of gear discrepancies. The posed absolutely no real threat to the other team, scored no points, earned no glory, and wasted their time. Is their experience any less important than yours?
It's ridiculous to look at only one side of the issue and act like that side's opinion is more important, and the other side doesn't matter.
As I have pointed out several times, leaving is a symptom. It's a great indicator of the health of the PvP experience/system in my opinion. It was short sighted to try to kill the issue of people leaving until you could correctly address the issues that drove them off. Properly motivating them to participate in matches would have been a much better solution, for both sides.
I find it incredibly odd that people would insult other players who quit and leave as being selfish indulgent children whilst standing on the platform of them leaving ruins their PvP experience and that is why they must be punished. Pot meet kettle.
Fact of the matter is that the leaver penalty is an atrocious idea which will only serve to slow down queue times, alienate the casual PvP players and ultimately not fix anything in the long run. Queue times are already experiencing a longer period to set a match up and I can garauntee it isn't just the new ranking system's fault. You withhold people from queueing for 30 minutes and suddenly the player base you can draw from is drastically reduced as a side effect for 30 minutes. So all of those who advocated the penalty can have fun waiting for 30 minutes for the matching system to work and for the leavers to come off of penalty time. Just remember you wanted it.
If you read back through my post history, you would see that there is nothing wrong with my knowledge of the history of this game, nor am I "crying" for the good old days of a straight higher reward for losing, so how about you stick to specifics of the idea's I've posted instead of creating your own points to argue against.
As a refresher...
Rewards based for different activities on the losing side, including time spent fighting on point, overall damage done, overall damage taken and other indicators to show that a player was actively participating in the match, not camping out. I've also advocated for boosting this reward based on a multiplier of (average opponent GS/player GS) so players fighting against much higher geared opponents get a higher reward (to offset the likelyhood that they score fewer points against said players). However, that last point becomes less important as the matchmaking system begins to function properly.
There are ways of rewarding players that lose without encouraging players to camp. Ways to encourage players to actively participate.
great ideas!!!throw in separate pug and premade queues and we got some competition.
another Idea to get players off the campfire is ALL players are guaranteed 150 glory just for signing up.If any player spends a combined amount of time (lets say 30 sec) at the campfire they forfeit the 150 glory.
Also if a player leaves or gets DCd RL happens another player who is in a queue can join into the match so teams stay balanced.
If the team replacement is used then instead of just forfeiting 150 glory you are also auto booted from the match and the lucky new players takes you place and possibly your 150 glory.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
The only other way to fix it would be to make the loser reward a lot closer to the winner reward, and wtf is the point of winning or even trying if you're getting the same things either way?
And if the rewards get too close people don't see the incentive to try.
When th game was first released the difference in rewards between winning and losing was much closer and the result was a resounding amount of people logging in joining PVP just to sit AFK. Never once leaving camp.
Carrots do work but only if you have a stick behind them.
Everybody can't be winners. Like so many walks of life there are three tiers. Rich, middle, poor. Good, Neutral, Evil. No matter how close the difference in the two extremes becomes you can't have one extreme without the other.
There has to be rewards for winners and punishments for those with undesirable behaviors. The people middle are just doing exactly what they should and getting rewarded a standard reward. Nothing special nothing bad just standard.
Sure real life happens but if something important enough to run away occurs chances are you're not gonna be back before the leaver penalty anyway. You can list off 100 reasons that you will have to leave. But those reasons are far rarer to occur in the excuses the players come up with every day to justify leaving a match due to reasons with in the match.
I find it incredibly odd that people would insult other players who quit and leave as being selfish indulgent children whilst standing on the platform of them leaving ruins their PvP experience and that is why they must be punished. Pot meet kettle.
Fact of the matter is that the leaver penalty is an atrocious idea which will only serve to slow down queue times, alienate the casual PvP players and ultimately not fix anything in the long run. Queue times are already experiencing a longer period to set a match up and I can garauntee it isn't just the new ranking system's fault. You withhold people from queueing for 30 minutes and suddenly the player base you can draw from is drastically reduced as a side effect for 30 minutes. So all of those who advocated the penalty can have fun waiting for 30 minutes for the matching system to work and for the leavers to come off of penalty time. Just remember you wanted it.
Nice to see some common sense here
It will get worse if thing keep going in the direction they are.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
And if the rewards get too close people don't see the incentive to try.
When th game was first released the difference in rewards between winning and losing was much closer and the result was a resounding amount of people logging in joining PVP just to sit AFK. Never once leaving camp.
Carrots do work but only if you have a stick behind them.
Everybody can't be winners. Like so many walks of life there are three tiers. Rich, middle, poor. Good, Neutral, Evil. No matter how close the difference in the two extremes becomes you can't have one extreme without the other.
There has to be rewards for winners and punishments for those with undesirable behaviors. The people middle are just doing exactly what they should and getting rewarded a standard reward. Nothing special nothing bad just standard.
Sure real life happens but if something important enough to run away occurs chances are you're not gonna be back before the leaver penalty anyway. You can list off 100 reasons that you will have to leave. But those reasons are far rarer to occur in the excuses the players come up with every day to justify leaving a match due to reasons with in the match.
Way to not read the ideas I've posted in the thread and instead point out how past ideas haven't worked. Good job. Honestly, I welcome a good debate about the merits of penalties versus enticements, the rod versus the carrot, and ways to legitimately make PvP a better experience for everyone, not just one particular group of people, but do everyone a favor. If you really want to partake in such a discussion, actively engage and discuss the options being presented.
As a refresher...
Rewards based for different activities on the losing side, including time spent fighting on point, overall damage done, overall damage taken and other indicators to show that a player was actively participating in the match, not camping out. I've also advocated for boosting this reward based on a multiplier of (average opponent GS/player GS) so players fighting against much higher geared opponents get a higher reward (to offset the likelyhood that they score fewer points against said players). However, that last point becomes less important as the matchmaking system begins to function properly.
There are ways of rewarding players that lose without encouraging players to camp. Ways to encourage players to actively participate.
Nah, they queued for it. All a penalty is doing is forcing them to finish what they started, and not ruin the experience for everyone else. They voluntarily joined the pvp, and pvp isn't like pve where you've got a very reasonable chance of steamrolling everything you fight.
So explain the difference between stuck standing on the ledge vs. leaving? How does that really change the game for anyone?
It's one thing if the match is close or even 70/30 but sometimes you end up with folks on your team with really bad gear and no skills and it feels like a 5 on 1 and eventually you get stuck on the ledge.
Forcing folks to stick that out doesn't do anyone any favors. Not the winning team nor the losing team.
Also, the leavers penalty can only be avoided if 2 players leave the match. From the patch details here :
You will be penalized for leaving PvP matches except in the following cases:
2 minutes have gone by and there are 3 or fewer players left on your team.
I would like to suggest changing this to allowing no penalties once any 1 of the 5 members on your team leaves the match, and remove the time delay as well. My reasons for this suggestion:
-> Please take note that with the new ELO system matches equally skilled players, and losing 20% of your fighting strength in a match when 1 player leaves usually equates to a lost. That is 1 less player to cap a point, and on a full 5v4 fight on a point, you will not be able to capture it simply because the opponents have more numbers on the point, especially against skilled players that understand the importance of staying on the point despite your best efforts to knock them away.
-> Yes, it is still possible to win, but the effort required is significant. Remember, the ELO system matches equally skilled players where both teams of full 5 members are likely evenly matched. Your back-cap, sneak about, split the enemy, distract them, fight as a team, zerg a point, etc, tactics are less effective than they would have been if you weren't matched against equally skilled players who might be anticipating such tactics when they realize that you are down 1 member.
-> From my limited experience in queuing up alone for PVP (thanks to the long queue times), I find that most players do not bother fighting on after 1 player leaves. They prefer to stay by the campfire and alt-tab to surf the net, idle around, or just conversing, etc; occasionally returning to move their characters to prevent being booted by the afk-mechanic.
-> Player frustration builds up while waiting at the campfire, leading to more angry players who are less likely to continue PVPing. Also when the team gives up, some players spend the remaining match time antagonizing their teammates trying to get another person to leave so they too can leave without suffering from the penalty.
Please take note that my suggestion is based on my limited experience since this penalty was implemented. However, I am suggesting it now without experiencing more PVP or giving the system more time to mature, simply because I do not think the situation will change when 1 player leaves, and I am unlikely to PVP anymore as I am sick of spending 20 mins queuing for a match, only to spend the majority of the match idling at the campfire when someone leaves.
I dunno, I don't think they have fixed anything. Did a few matches today and they were all ROFLstomps. Huge nerf on glory. Coming in top placing I was getting maybe 300 or so glory compared to 600-700 before (for same duration/scored matches), obviously not during PVP hour. Still, I feel sorry for anyone needing to get their artifact.......
And this is supposed to improve PVP? Time to beam me up!
First let me just say that I am a casual PvPer, always have been, always will be. That being said I have tried PvP in every game I have ever played and to me the fix is just blindingly obvious. REMOVE THE REWARDS FROM PVP.
I'm sorry but as long as you have a reward that players can use to further other aspects of their game like AD rewards and salvageable glory items you will have players that will use whatever means they can to maximize their time to effort ratio. Thus began the era of leavers, players who were leaving to find easier matches that they had not only a sure win but a big win there by gaining max glory for little effort. Unfortunately this behavior showed others that simply leaving a losing match was a easy way to not waste their time against impossible odds like a premade regardless how it effected the other 9 people and then trickled down to people simply leaving if there was even the smallest hint of a loss. Yes, it is a totally selfish act but one that sadly is becoming more and more the norm in all aspects of gaming.
Now to address a couple of points thrown out in this thread.
1. Real Life.
Yes, your real life should always come first. But just as in real life, you shouldn't offer to do something when you know you may not have the time to dedicate to it. Lets be honest here, how would you feel if say someone offered to help you move then in the middle of packing stuff up took a phone call and then disappeared for the rest of the day? I understand that there will always be unforeseen circumstances that will force you away from the game and no one is arguing that these are one time occurrences make you a bad person. Its the people that will leave a match for any reason even if they could avoid it like say a call from a friend, if its not important you could simply say "hey let me call you back in a few minutes".
I for one try not to get into any group content if I know that there may be a chance I'll have to leave or step away from the computer simply because I know how it feels to lose because you suddenly lost a member and I don't want to be that person. Yes, maybe that is inconvenient for you but your teaming up then leaving is inconvenient for 4 to 9 other people and it is simply rude to think your time is more important then theirs.
2.Love it or leave it.
Ahh the great PvP mindset. Sadly this has become a normal egotistical way of looking at things because PvPers tend to always believe that they are the majority and so losing a "nub" or two wont hurt them. Sadly they always fail to realize that the majority in fact are the casual PvPers. So while it may be easy to just spurt out "don't PvP" the fact is if all the causal PvPer decided to stop PvPing the end result would no more PvP because (and lets be honest here) the hardcore crowd would eventually grow tired of fighting the same players over and over and simply stop PvPing or leave the game and thus no more PvP because just like the preview server, there would never be enough players queuing to fill a match and with the new divide cause by the match making system even less players to make a match.
Now you can argue against my points but trust me, I've seen it happen in enough games to know its true. If you want proof though I suggest you head over to PWI and log onto one of their PvP servers (or the only pvp server since I think they merged them do to lack of players) and see how dead it is. Simply put new players got tired of being griefed by players in open world PKing and switched to the PvE servers and then the remaining PvPer got bored and either left the game or also switched to the PvE servers.
3. Removing rewards.
This is just simple. Make the rewards nothing more then glory which is used to buy non AD salvageable PvP gear. Remove the AD rewards from the lord and rinx quest. And to be fair to the PvP crowd make glory items salvageable for glory and what you will end up with is players PvPing simply for the fun of PvPing, which is not a bad thing. An arena would also be a nice addition since it would give players a place to try out different skills and tactics to improve themselves in a non competitive environment against different classes and builds. It's pretty hard to test out anything during the frantic pace of an actual PvP match since your experimenting could be the very thing that causes you to lose the match. Also I truly believe that an arena would improve the overall PvP community since it would be a place they can gather and talk, offering suggestions on tactics and such to newer PvPers instead of the currently alienating way it is now.
4.leavers and matchmaking.
Yea I know both are still problem but to be fair the new patch is only a day old. You have to give it some time to work it's magic. Im sure by the end of the month the matchmaking system will have weeded out the pros from the casuals thus ending the old Premade vs PUG issue and hopefully that and the penalty will reduce the amount of leavers. Lets not forget far too many player are too lazy to read anything including patch notes so there are still many players that don't even know the leaving penalty was implemented. I cant count how may people I saw in chat that were confused by the fact that suddenly they could not queue for anything and inevitability I'd PM them and ask if they had quit a PvP match only to get a "yea".
So there you go, my view of the situation. Feel free to argue against any and everything I said as I see no reason to reply to this thread anymore. I have said my piece and to argue it anymore would just devolve into a circle of stupidity. Which is to that you and I may have differing ideas which we both strongly believe and since neither will back down from their stance it would be pointless to continue to argue. If what I have already said doesn't convince you nothing else I say will change that fact.
Why does one get penalized when it is your crappy server who is not responding for more than 5 minutes?????????????????
I am in a match, and no we were not winning from what I recall, but fighting to the best we could, when suddenly the server stops responding and one gets the red message saying "server not responding ..." and it counts the seconds.
After more than 5 minutes, the match must have ended by then, do I get a connection again only to find myself penalized for the next 23 minutes.
Please fix your your stupid mechanic and at least check who quit here. It was not me, it was your HAMSTER server.
Do you have on demand patching turned off on the patch screen options? if you haven't that sometimes creates the server not responding problem.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
There is no way to tell the difference between a lost connection and a purposely dropped connection.
The bug preventing players from rejoining and active match has been resolved so just log back in as soon as possible.
Furthermore the rule of thumb is that unless the forums are completely flooded with complaints there is nothing wrong with the servers. The disconnection issue you face is likely either on your end or specific to the route the connection is taking but not with the servers themselves.
Then why the tenacity and HD adjustments to make lower-skilled players happy? That's the point, it's domination. Any of the upper level players who are used to frequent premade matches started out at the bottom like everyone else, and we dealt with dying and getting destroyed when we first entered lvl 60 PvP. That's how you learn to play. No real reason to give penalty anyway, unless you're going to have a way of pushing them out of spawn as well, because 60% of them still sit in there when they see they're outmatched. If you want to leave, go ahead, if you want to sit in spawn, go ahead, whine some more, maybe the devs will make another nerf and create another mount for you to purchase in the bargain.
I beg to differ. Your team consist of 2 HRs, 2 clerics, and a rogue. The other team consists of 2 GWFs, 1 GF, 1 CW, and 1 HR. Which team do you think is going to win? However, at the end of the match, you team only scored 145 points because you were so overpowered. Guess what....now you get 0 Glory and no Experience points. Happened to me several times. THAT IS AN EXCELLENT REASON TO LEAVE THE MATCH.
Wrong. there is no excellent or any other reason to leave a match other than real life interfering.
Let the ELO do it's work over the next weeks and you'll be matched reasonably fairly against other teams. If you can't take a loss, don't start the fight.
Furthermore, by abandoning your team, you ruin any chance of a decent match for the rest of your team. Typical case of "my ego is worth more than my team". Disgusting. If you want a 100% win, install CoD, set the difficulty to easy and play against the PC.
You play against and with a random team. You risk losing. You know this when you start. deal with it. Stop letting your ego get the better of you and play the match. It's a game. Your life does not depend on losing a match.
People can and should do whatever the heck they please with their game. The system allows for leavers so leave if you like. The system allow for campfire sitting so do that too. The system allows for fighting so feel free to bash some digi-faces.
If you are so upset about people leaving, form a premade of friends you know who won't leave, the power is in your hands to not be disgusted . The power is in your hands to exclude people you don't want to play with. You have the power!
Comments
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Or they could give the leaver penalty teeth. Leave 5 matches in a month = permaban
And you'll end up with minimal people playing pvp, and a dev team who will soon realize that supporting pvp no longer makes financial sense. It's absurd to drive away the community in an attempt to force them to act the way you want. Figure out why they don't, fix it in a positive manner if you want to cultivate and grow that community and end up with a more rewarding experience overall, plus make more money as a developer.
Of course, it makes many people feel good about themselves to take such a hard stance over something so trivial.
As for the game slowly dying if they force people away, it's quickly dying from the people quitting now. People leave every day from leavers. I can barely get the energy to log in right now because of them. If this problem isn't gone soon the game is dead.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
People quitting was not driving any mass of people away from the game. Poor PvP implementation, then and now, sure.
I am a very firm believer that it was a bad move to put a penalty for leaving in place until PvP was fixed and operating well on it's own merits. Positive reinforcement would have fixed most of the leaving issues, a proper match making system should fix more of them. Then, after it's all working and the community and devs have had the time to properly gauge their effectiveness and impact on PvP, if leaving was still an issue, I would support a penalty.
Nah, they queued for it. All a penalty is doing is forcing them to finish what they started, and not ruin the experience for everyone else. They voluntarily joined the pvp, and pvp isn't like pve where you've got a very reasonable chance of steamrolling everything you fight. The whole *point* is that you're playing real people who could honestly stomp a mudhole into you if you're not paying attention.
I'd been here in closed beta, as a pvp freak. I love pvp in just about any game, and I quit this one a few months back. IRL reasons, but there was also the fact that I'd sometimes wait for up to an hour to get a team that wasn't me and 2 other people, because half of my queue quit when they saw that we had a GWF on the team or something similar. (I still find it hard to believe that this was once an issue) I got to the point where I just flat out gave up, because people with opportunistic attitudes would just decide on the spot that the pvp wasn't worth doing. I'm sorry, when a game mode has moments when you can wait over an hour to get a proper team together just to do one small chunk of it? There's a serious problem there. *Especially* when I'd encounter the same players the next time around, and they'd do the same thing, on the other side. Why the hell even queue if you're not going to play? Why pvp if you can't take the thought that you might lose, too? It's that medal for effort, there are no losers, you're all special snowflakes thing rearing its head again. Why the hell compete if you're afraid to lose? Why even play that game mode if you're just going to leave, and punish everyone else, because you can't stick out a 15 minute match?
I think "not being a jerk to everyone around you" is pretty freaking valid incentive to stay. Then again, I'm not a selfish player who doesn't realize you can still do well in pvp if you're losing.
Is it a difficult concept to understand that if you increase rewards for people, so you can encourage them to stay, you're also one way or another going to increase the incentives they have to quit and find an optimum run? The only other way to fix it would be to make the loser reward a lot closer to the winner reward, and wtf is the point of winning or even trying if you're getting the same things either way?
RIP Caine
wow good thing you arnt running things this game wouldnt exist.
Forcing players to fight lopsided battles for either side isnt very bright.
I wouldnt blame anyone from leaving if its a complete blowout either way.I leave when we are winning and its just to easy.
I get bored with lopsided fights.I want competition for the weak unorganized pug team and the strong organized premade team.
why anyone would wait below the spawn with 5 guys then just insta kill any one who drops doesnt know or care about competition.
they are most of the problem in the first place.
The leaver penalty wont fix anything and should never be in any game ever.
what we need is a stayers reward(for participating NOT standing at campfire).add the pug and premade queue and you have some competition.
Only 1 in 10 games is actually competition the way its set up now.
If you read back through my post history, you would see that there is nothing wrong with my knowledge of the history of this game, nor am I "crying" for the good old days of a straight higher reward for losing, so how about you stick to specifics of the idea's I've posted instead of creating your own points to argue against.
As a refresher...
Rewards based for different activities on the losing side, including time spent fighting on point, overall damage done, overall damage taken and other indicators to show that a player was actively participating in the match, not camping out. I've also advocated for boosting this reward based on a multiplier of (average opponent GS/player GS) so players fighting against much higher geared opponents get a higher reward (to offset the likelyhood that they score fewer points against said players). However, that last point becomes less important as the matchmaking system begins to function properly.
There are ways of rewarding players that lose without encouraging players to camp. Ways to encourage players to actively participate.
The claim there is never a reason to leave baffles me. Gamers quit a game/match when it's not fun. It's not about losing, it's about not being able to have a good/fair/fun match. Penalizing gamers for quitting something that isn't fun isn't going to make it any more fun.
It's not as much an issue in dungeons because others can queue in, that actually works pretty well, always get a healer or GF when you need one.
I understand the problem that we had previously, it was too easy to get decent glory from sitting at the fire, and that had to change. But the system we currently have is not much better.
They should have some sort of reward tied to the total points your team acquires modified by the length of the match and the individual performance of the player. I am unsure what would be the right formula, but I am sure something can be worked out. It is extremely frustrating to be in a match for 45 minutes, get a decent number of kills and assists (like 20k/30a), cap many points, get killed a lot, lose and get 200 glory. Which is what is currently happening. It is even worse when your team can not even cap a single point nor get a single kill. Then you are in for a long uphill fight with no reward, it is then that you will see a LOT of people decide to take the penalty and bail out. And I don't blame them.
It goes both ways. Players spent too many times in severely lopsided matches having THEIR experience in PvP ruined because they end up fighting groups where everyone is effectively 10 levels higher than they are because of gear discrepancies. The posed absolutely no real threat to the other team, scored no points, earned no glory, and wasted their time. Is their experience any less important than yours?
It's ridiculous to look at only one side of the issue and act like that side's opinion is more important, and the other side doesn't matter.
As I have pointed out several times, leaving is a symptom. It's a great indicator of the health of the PvP experience/system in my opinion. It was short sighted to try to kill the issue of people leaving until you could correctly address the issues that drove them off. Properly motivating them to participate in matches would have been a much better solution, for both sides.
Fact of the matter is that the leaver penalty is an atrocious idea which will only serve to slow down queue times, alienate the casual PvP players and ultimately not fix anything in the long run. Queue times are already experiencing a longer period to set a match up and I can garauntee it isn't just the new ranking system's fault. You withhold people from queueing for 30 minutes and suddenly the player base you can draw from is drastically reduced as a side effect for 30 minutes. So all of those who advocated the penalty can have fun waiting for 30 minutes for the matching system to work and for the leavers to come off of penalty time. Just remember you wanted it.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
another Idea to get players off the campfire is ALL players are guaranteed 150 glory just for signing up.If any player spends a combined amount of time (lets say 30 sec) at the campfire they forfeit the 150 glory.
Also if a player leaves or gets DCd RL happens another player who is in a queue can join into the match so teams stay balanced.
If the team replacement is used then instead of just forfeiting 150 glory you are also auto booted from the match and the lucky new players takes you place and possibly your 150 glory.
And if the rewards get too close people don't see the incentive to try.
When th game was first released the difference in rewards between winning and losing was much closer and the result was a resounding amount of people logging in joining PVP just to sit AFK. Never once leaving camp.
Carrots do work but only if you have a stick behind them.
Everybody can't be winners. Like so many walks of life there are three tiers. Rich, middle, poor. Good, Neutral, Evil. No matter how close the difference in the two extremes becomes you can't have one extreme without the other.
There has to be rewards for winners and punishments for those with undesirable behaviors. The people middle are just doing exactly what they should and getting rewarded a standard reward. Nothing special nothing bad just standard.
Sure real life happens but if something important enough to run away occurs chances are you're not gonna be back before the leaver penalty anyway. You can list off 100 reasons that you will have to leave. But those reasons are far rarer to occur in the excuses the players come up with every day to justify leaving a match due to reasons with in the match.
Nice to see some common sense here
It will get worse if thing keep going in the direction they are.
Way to not read the ideas I've posted in the thread and instead point out how past ideas haven't worked. Good job. Honestly, I welcome a good debate about the merits of penalties versus enticements, the rod versus the carrot, and ways to legitimately make PvP a better experience for everyone, not just one particular group of people, but do everyone a favor. If you really want to partake in such a discussion, actively engage and discuss the options being presented.
So explain the difference between stuck standing on the ledge vs. leaving? How does that really change the game for anyone?
It's one thing if the match is close or even 70/30 but sometimes you end up with folks on your team with really bad gear and no skills and it feels like a 5 on 1 and eventually you get stuck on the ledge.
Forcing folks to stick that out doesn't do anyone any favors. Not the winning team nor the losing team.
You will be penalized for leaving PvP matches except in the following cases:
2 minutes have gone by and there are 3 or fewer players left on your team.
I would like to suggest changing this to allowing no penalties once any 1 of the 5 members on your team leaves the match, and remove the time delay as well. My reasons for this suggestion:
-> Please take note that with the new ELO system matches equally skilled players, and losing 20% of your fighting strength in a match when 1 player leaves usually equates to a lost. That is 1 less player to cap a point, and on a full 5v4 fight on a point, you will not be able to capture it simply because the opponents have more numbers on the point, especially against skilled players that understand the importance of staying on the point despite your best efforts to knock them away.
-> Yes, it is still possible to win, but the effort required is significant. Remember, the ELO system matches equally skilled players where both teams of full 5 members are likely evenly matched. Your back-cap, sneak about, split the enemy, distract them, fight as a team, zerg a point, etc, tactics are less effective than they would have been if you weren't matched against equally skilled players who might be anticipating such tactics when they realize that you are down 1 member.
-> From my limited experience in queuing up alone for PVP (thanks to the long queue times), I find that most players do not bother fighting on after 1 player leaves. They prefer to stay by the campfire and alt-tab to surf the net, idle around, or just conversing, etc; occasionally returning to move their characters to prevent being booted by the afk-mechanic.
-> Player frustration builds up while waiting at the campfire, leading to more angry players who are less likely to continue PVPing. Also when the team gives up, some players spend the remaining match time antagonizing their teammates trying to get another person to leave so they too can leave without suffering from the penalty.
Please take note that my suggestion is based on my limited experience since this penalty was implemented. However, I am suggesting it now without experiencing more PVP or giving the system more time to mature, simply because I do not think the situation will change when 1 player leaves, and I am unlikely to PVP anymore as I am sick of spending 20 mins queuing for a match, only to spend the majority of the match idling at the campfire when someone leaves.
Thank you for reading.
And this is supposed to improve PVP? Time to beam me up!
I'm sorry but as long as you have a reward that players can use to further other aspects of their game like AD rewards and salvageable glory items you will have players that will use whatever means they can to maximize their time to effort ratio. Thus began the era of leavers, players who were leaving to find easier matches that they had not only a sure win but a big win there by gaining max glory for little effort. Unfortunately this behavior showed others that simply leaving a losing match was a easy way to not waste their time against impossible odds like a premade regardless how it effected the other 9 people and then trickled down to people simply leaving if there was even the smallest hint of a loss. Yes, it is a totally selfish act but one that sadly is becoming more and more the norm in all aspects of gaming.
Now to address a couple of points thrown out in this thread.
1. Real Life.
Yes, your real life should always come first. But just as in real life, you shouldn't offer to do something when you know you may not have the time to dedicate to it. Lets be honest here, how would you feel if say someone offered to help you move then in the middle of packing stuff up took a phone call and then disappeared for the rest of the day? I understand that there will always be unforeseen circumstances that will force you away from the game and no one is arguing that these are one time occurrences make you a bad person. Its the people that will leave a match for any reason even if they could avoid it like say a call from a friend, if its not important you could simply say "hey let me call you back in a few minutes".
I for one try not to get into any group content if I know that there may be a chance I'll have to leave or step away from the computer simply because I know how it feels to lose because you suddenly lost a member and I don't want to be that person. Yes, maybe that is inconvenient for you but your teaming up then leaving is inconvenient for 4 to 9 other people and it is simply rude to think your time is more important then theirs.
2.Love it or leave it.
Ahh the great PvP mindset. Sadly this has become a normal egotistical way of looking at things because PvPers tend to always believe that they are the majority and so losing a "nub" or two wont hurt them. Sadly they always fail to realize that the majority in fact are the casual PvPers. So while it may be easy to just spurt out "don't PvP" the fact is if all the causal PvPer decided to stop PvPing the end result would no more PvP because (and lets be honest here) the hardcore crowd would eventually grow tired of fighting the same players over and over and simply stop PvPing or leave the game and thus no more PvP because just like the preview server, there would never be enough players queuing to fill a match and with the new divide cause by the match making system even less players to make a match.
Now you can argue against my points but trust me, I've seen it happen in enough games to know its true. If you want proof though I suggest you head over to PWI and log onto one of their PvP servers (or the only pvp server since I think they merged them do to lack of players) and see how dead it is. Simply put new players got tired of being griefed by players in open world PKing and switched to the PvE servers and then the remaining PvPer got bored and either left the game or also switched to the PvE servers.
3. Removing rewards.
This is just simple. Make the rewards nothing more then glory which is used to buy non AD salvageable PvP gear. Remove the AD rewards from the lord and rinx quest. And to be fair to the PvP crowd make glory items salvageable for glory and what you will end up with is players PvPing simply for the fun of PvPing, which is not a bad thing. An arena would also be a nice addition since it would give players a place to try out different skills and tactics to improve themselves in a non competitive environment against different classes and builds. It's pretty hard to test out anything during the frantic pace of an actual PvP match since your experimenting could be the very thing that causes you to lose the match. Also I truly believe that an arena would improve the overall PvP community since it would be a place they can gather and talk, offering suggestions on tactics and such to newer PvPers instead of the currently alienating way it is now.
4.leavers and matchmaking.
Yea I know both are still problem but to be fair the new patch is only a day old. You have to give it some time to work it's magic. Im sure by the end of the month the matchmaking system will have weeded out the pros from the casuals thus ending the old Premade vs PUG issue and hopefully that and the penalty will reduce the amount of leavers. Lets not forget far too many player are too lazy to read anything including patch notes so there are still many players that don't even know the leaving penalty was implemented. I cant count how may people I saw in chat that were confused by the fact that suddenly they could not queue for anything and inevitability I'd PM them and ask if they had quit a PvP match only to get a "yea".
So there you go, my view of the situation. Feel free to argue against any and everything I said as I see no reason to reply to this thread anymore. I have said my piece and to argue it anymore would just devolve into a circle of stupidity. Which is to that you and I may have differing ideas which we both strongly believe and since neither will back down from their stance it would be pointless to continue to argue. If what I have already said doesn't convince you nothing else I say will change that fact.
I am in a match, and no we were not winning from what I recall, but fighting to the best we could, when suddenly the server stops responding and one gets the red message saying "server not responding ..." and it counts the seconds.
After more than 5 minutes, the match must have ended by then, do I get a connection again only to find myself penalized for the next 23 minutes.
Please fix your your stupid mechanic and at least check who quit here. It was not me, it was your HAMSTER server.
The bug preventing players from rejoining and active match has been resolved so just log back in as soon as possible.
Furthermore the rule of thumb is that unless the forums are completely flooded with complaints there is nothing wrong with the servers. The disconnection issue you face is likely either on your end or specific to the route the connection is taking but not with the servers themselves.
Then why the tenacity and HD adjustments to make lower-skilled players happy? That's the point, it's domination. Any of the upper level players who are used to frequent premade matches started out at the bottom like everyone else, and we dealt with dying and getting destroyed when we first entered lvl 60 PvP. That's how you learn to play. No real reason to give penalty anyway, unless you're going to have a way of pushing them out of spawn as well, because 60% of them still sit in there when they see they're outmatched. If you want to leave, go ahead, if you want to sit in spawn, go ahead, whine some more, maybe the devs will make another nerf and create another mount for you to purchase in the bargain.
People can and should do whatever the heck they please with their game. The system allows for leavers so leave if you like. The system allow for campfire sitting so do that too. The system allows for fighting so feel free to bash some digi-faces.
If you are so upset about people leaving, form a premade of friends you know who won't leave, the power is in your hands to not be disgusted