This weekend I'm going to put a guide on the forums. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, so I'm going to call it "Copperwire's Horse Build", for all of you who seem to be having issues figuring out where the water is. Many of you won't believe me anyway, so I'm going to make some videos too. We live in fun times
A person who has excellent hand-eye coordination vs someone who doesn't etc. will always do better at things in games then the other person it is a fact of life. You may be one of those exceptional people while the majority of players are NOT.. I hope you are correct and anyone can use it but I doubt it as I saw a post many months ago claiming almost the same thing as you and well............. I think you know how that turned out.....
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
edited March 2014
Wassup players, my name is Ant-Monster. I recently perfected a special PvE build on the Guardian Fighter that can increase the party's DPS by 150%+! Along with my build I will release step-by-step instructions on how to properly GF for both PvE & PvP! *Sigh* I will even give away my feats =/ (they're no longer gonna be special lol )... However, get ready ladies and gentle men! A Guardian Fighter Tutorial like you've NEVER seen before is coming your way!
This build will also be paragon friendly. This build was perfected, IF NOT created by me. (I claim this build as my own because I have yet to see any other GF (besides those I taught) to use these items/powers/feats as I do. However if there is a person who created it before me, I will respect and acknowledge them).
This guide will be in the forum of a YouTube video. Complete with feat, power, and ability selections! I will also teach you how to fight each and every class in PvP correctly, to maximize your OWNAGE! If you want to watch the video as SOON as it's posted, head over to my YouTube and subscribe. See you guys soon!!
Then put a nail in the coffin of this class, because that is an absolutely unnecessary function in Neverwinter.
And your comment is a lie.
My Guildmates love my GF: High threat on targets + Locking targets in place makes for happy DPSer's.
And the GF still soaks up damage better than anything.
And since we're farming nearly all the Tier 2's: I'd say anyone who thinks the GF is useless is either A) Doing it wrong Unimaginative or C) Happy glitching and exploiting.
In any case: Since the Patch the GF just got even more fun to play.
PS. All my comments come from a PVE perspective first and foremost: Since the PvP aspect of this game is so horrid; anyone who preaches from that side of the fence is blowing hot air. Neverwinter PvP is the special kid on the MMO block. It has a LONG way to go before it becomes anything close to what is available in other MMO's.
Love my Dwarven Cannonball, and his improved...everything.
oh yes GF is one of my favorites infront to my CW and cleric thats what is meant to be done a GWF cant aggro lock really they can just knock down. but oh! so can GF and do it better. All a GWF can do is run to hit targets; the gf? its already in range because they are drawn to him like moths to a flame and the 3 cws? they are burning and frying them to ashes because they are unimpeded and the monsters are attacking something that just wont go down.
From a PvP perspective, the GF is the ugly step-child of the GWF when both have high end gear. That's where the rubber hits the road.
I've played the GF a long time and seen the good and bad times. This is still part of the bad times for PvP GF's. The Frontline Surge nerf of 25% damage and cutting the Feat for it so that it gives 1/2 of the additional prone time ... plus crit and control mitigation of Tenacity, we're doing less damage. That hurts.
But, the increase in cap from 3 to 5 for Frontline Surge helps a little ... rarely can you get more than 3 in a Frontline Surge where none of them are GWF's currently Unstoppable or Rogues in Impossible to Catch (the two most tanky powers in the game by far and quite superior to any tanky power the GF has). So the utility is low, but when it happens it's fun.
The increased range to Bull Charge is awesome. That's exactly what that power needed. It's still a short to medium range ability, but with our vulnerability to range we need it. The improvement to Griffon's Wrath is nice ... but it's still very situational because we need Lunging Strike, Bull Charge and the control of Frontline Surge ... but we could swap it in when we know it's going to be a 1v1 encounter for a while.
All in all, we have less damage and less survivability than a GWF ... which is odd. What we do have is mele controls. That's where we can be useful in PvP. We're distinctly inferior to GWF's and high geared stealth-heavy rogues. We're easy targets for Rangers, but if we can go against them without too much interference, we have a decent chance. We have a fair chances against a Mage or Cleric. We work best with a partner, where we are the control setup and decoy and the other guy is the DPS.
We still definitely need a buff.
Well said. Sums up the current state of GF pretty much. I try putting some enchant back in the GF and play it after the new PVP patch, it feels better than before( MOD 2) But GF are still outclassed by GWF, we don't do that much dps while we don't tank that well. I am still sticking with my GWF and TR in PVP as far as it goes. GF requires a team to shine, which makes it only fun in a premade and with the fk up queue right now it is no telling what u run into. I honestly think GF needs some sort of complete rework, the TAB ability change feels like a really lazy buff. Good but feels really forced to.
Pre 60 GF is fun and hopeful, it's only at 60 where you truly see the ridiculously poor nature of the GF as you are constantly focused down until your guard is broken and then cc'ed to death only to run back and rinse and repeat!
A GF cannot take a point alone, nor can he really pressure an opposing team alone unlike other classes, the GF needs his team around him to be successful and don't expect any big numbers as you will be doing level 35-40 DPS class damage unless you are in the 18k+ GS area which I cannot see anyone doing in this mod as you would have to be a HAMSTER to do it!
GF is a waste of pixels in the game don't waste your $$$$$$ on being a lackluster, boring, poor dps class hell GWF can do everything GFs can better and only suffer maybe 10% DR loss..... Ridiculous!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Another problem is that shield block mostly absorbs damage (and it s not even so good at it), but daze, stun, knockback and a lot other of stuff affects you just normally. Combined with the imposibility of getting out of aoe you are ****ed. At chartilifax for example, it s aoe not only send me flying away and drained my shield, also damaged me; and it s not as if we get some substantial bonus from taking damage.
Pre 60 GF is fun and hopeful, it's only at 60 where you truly see the ridiculously poor nature of the GF as you are constantly focused down until your guard is broken and then cc'ed to death only to run back and rinse and repeat!
A GF cannot take a point alone, nor can he really pressure an opposing team alone unlike other classes, the GF needs his team around him to be successful and don't expect any big numbers as you will be doing level 35-40 DPS class damage unless you are in the 18k+ GS area which I cannot see anyone doing in this mod as you would have to be a HAMSTER to do it!
GF is a waste of pixels in the game don't waste your $$$$$$ on being a lackluster, boring, poor dps class hell GWF can do everything GFs can better and only suffer maybe 10% DR loss..... Ridiculous!
I admit it does take a bit of a HAMSTER to play a GF. But I think you're exaggerating.
The reason why GFs get focused down is because often it takes 2 people to kill one when the GF knows what they're doing. Try getting a bloodcrystal raven skull and a soulforged. It takes ages for you to die.
Yes, a GF needs his/her team to survive. But likewise a GF can turn around any battle that's going poorly. One of your teammates got caught off guard. In less than a second you use lunging strike and bull rush and the tables have turned. You both gang up on the opponent, beat them, and you move on to the next battle, and the next. And oddly enough in a one on one fight you can still take on most classes, except for the GWF, which still doesn't have the team support abilities you do. Everyone else it's basically who ambushes who first.
GF is arguably the most powerful PvP class when played correctly, because it has this dual support/1v1 ability. But no, you won't get the most number of kills. Too bad.
You partly have to accept that a GF is not a traditional tank. GFs fight in such a way as to help protect the party. GF crowd control is vastly superior to the GWF's. GFs are not juggernauts, but they can still survive more damage than any other class, which unfortunately makes them well suited for kiting, but also for knocking down and drawing away enemies when there's no CW. And if something goes wrong, they will most likely survive while a CW won't.
There are ways for GFs to do lots of damage. They just involve some actual creativity. Thanks to the update, Griffon's Wrath is now a viable PvP skill which, with some practice, can be deadly. GFs can double their damage against an opponent with Knight's challenge, which again takes practice to use. One of the CQ paragon feats, Staggering Challenge, powers up both Griffon's Wrath and Knight's Challenge. That's not a coincidence...
People who have taken the time to study GFs have found that they have a lot of potential. Yes they were underpowered, but more than anything else they are difficult to play and not very intuitive. It takes research. People ruin their GFs by trying to play them as traditional tanks. It's so easy to gimp yourself by stacking as much defense as humanly possible when you don't realize the soft cap is around 3600, and points after than are wasted, making your gear score higher than how strong your character actually is. It's also easy to follow the crowd and spend hundreds of thousands of astral diamonds on high level enchantments that barely add anything to your firepower, when you could do more by rearranging your skills, current enchantments, and gear.
Being a GF means you have to be smart, be an independent thinker, and yes, be willing to take some abuse and punishment. There's no margin for error. If you look up the Iron Maiden protector build for PvE, you'll see that it involves careful planning and a very clever combination of skills which the creator had to figure out on their own.
So, basically I disagree that GFs are worthless. They're hard to play, which is why not a lot of people play them, and with such a small community there isn't a lot of support or creativity. Those that do play sometimes think their way is the only way because they themselves secretly believe that they've just barely found a way to not be worthless.
I'm not claiming to be some kind of expert. I've made mistakes, caused party wipes, created terrible builds and gotten my *** kicked at PvP plenty of times. And for all my efforts I only now feel like I'm coming into my own. But after finally achieving positive K/D ratios in PvP, getting praised for handling the mobs in our malabog party with no CW to help, and tanking the dragon itself, I have a pretty good idea of how strong my GF is going to become. You can call me a HAMSTER. But I prefer to think of it as enjoying a challenge.
Guardian fighters are not for everyone. But they are certainly not weak.
Yeah, but you can t have a class that s easy for everyone to master and another that is only for a select group of people. Because in most cases you ll find that a mediocre character of other classes can fight equally well as an expert class of the other. It s not like the extra dificulty of playing a GF gives you extra rewards or something
I admit it does take a bit of a HAMSTER to play a GF. But I think you're exaggerating.
The reason why GFs get focused down is because often it takes 2 people to kill one when the GF knows what they're doing. Try getting a bloodcrystal raven skull and a soulforged. It takes ages for you to die.
Yes, a GF needs his/her team to survive. But likewise a GF can turn around any battle that's going poorly. One of your teammates got caught off guard. In less than a second you use lunging strike and bull rush and the tables have turned. You both gang up on the opponent, beat them, and you move on to the next battle, and the next. And oddly enough in a one on one fight you can still take on most classes, except for the GWF, which still doesn't have the team support abilities you do. Everyone else it's basically who ambushes who first.
GF is arguably the most powerful PvP class when played correctly, because it has this dual support/1v1 ability. But no, you won't get the most number of kills. Too bad.
You partly have to accept that a GF is not a traditional tank. GFs fight in such a way as to help protect the party. GF crowd control is vastly superior to the GWF's. GFs are not juggernauts, but they can still survive more damage than any other class, which unfortunately makes them well suited for kiting, but also for knocking down and drawing away enemies when there's no CW. And if something goes wrong, they will most likely survive while a CW won't.
There are ways for GFs to do lots of damage. They just involve some actual creativity. Thanks to the update, Griffon's Wrath is now a viable PvP skill which, with some practice, can be deadly. GFs can double their damage against an opponent with Knight's challenge, which again takes practice to use. One of the CQ paragon feats, Staggering Challenge, powers up both Griffon's Wrath and Knight's Challenge. That's not a coincidence...
People who have taken the time to study GFs have found that they have a lot of potential. Yes they were underpowered, but more than anything else they are difficult to play and not very intuitive. It takes research. People ruin their GFs by trying to play them as traditional tanks. It's so easy to gimp yourself by stacking as much defense as humanly possible when you don't realize the soft cap is around 3600, and points after than are wasted, making your gear score higher than how strong your character actually is. It's also easy to follow the crowd and spend hundreds of thousands of astral diamonds on high level enchantments that barely add anything to your firepower, when you could do more by rearranging your skills, current enchantments, and gear.
Being a GF means you have to be smart, be an independent thinker, and yes, be willing to take some abuse and punishment. There's no margin for error. If you look up the Iron Maiden protector build for PvE, you'll see that it involves careful planning and a very clever combination of skills which the creator had to figure out on their own.
So, basically I disagree that GFs are worthless. They're hard to play, which is why not a lot of people play them, and with such a small community there isn't a lot of support or creativity. Those that do play sometimes think their way is the only way because they themselves secretly believe that they've just barely found a way to not be worthless.
I'm not claiming to be some kind of expert. I've made mistakes, caused party wipes, created terrible builds and gotten my *** kicked at PvP plenty of times. And for all my efforts I only now feel like I'm coming into my own. But after finally achieving positive K/D ratios in PvP, getting praised for handling the mobs in our malabog party with no CW to help, and tanking the dragon itself, I have a pretty good idea of how strong my GF is going to become. You can call me a HAMSTER. But I prefer to think of it as enjoying a challenge.
Guardian fighters are not for everyone. But they are certainly not weak.
I admit it does take a bit of a HAMSTER to play a GF. But I think you're exaggerating.
The reason why GFs get focused down is because often it takes 2 people to kill one when the GF knows what they're doing. Try getting a bloodcrystal raven skull and a soulforged. It takes ages for you to die.
Yes, a GF needs his/her team to survive. But likewise a GF can turn around any battle that's going poorly. One of your teammates got caught off guard. In less than a second you use lunging strike and bull rush and the tables have turned. You both gang up on the opponent, beat them, and you move on to the next battle, and the next. And oddly enough in a one on one fight you can still take on most classes, except for the GWF, which still doesn't have the team support abilities you do. Everyone else it's basically who ambushes who first.
GF is arguably the most powerful PvP class when played correctly, because it has this dual support/1v1 ability. But no, you won't get the most number of kills. Too bad.
You partly have to accept that a GF is not a traditional tank. GFs fight in such a way as to help protect the party. GF crowd control is vastly superior to the GWF's. GFs are not juggernauts, but they can still survive more damage than any other class, which unfortunately makes them well suited for kiting, but also for knocking down and drawing away enemies when there's no CW. And if something goes wrong, they will most likely survive while a CW won't.
There are ways for GFs to do lots of damage. They just involve some actual creativity. Thanks to the update, Griffon's Wrath is now a viable PvP skill which, with some practice, can be deadly. GFs can double their damage against an opponent with Knight's challenge, which again takes practice to use. One of the CQ paragon feats, Staggering Challenge, powers up both Griffon's Wrath and Knight's Challenge. That's not a coincidence...
People who have taken the time to study GFs have found that they have a lot of potential. Yes they were underpowered, but more than anything else they are difficult to play and not very intuitive. It takes research. People ruin their GFs by trying to play them as traditional tanks. It's so easy to gimp yourself by stacking as much defense as humanly possible when you don't realize the soft cap is around 3600, and points after than are wasted, making your gear score higher than how strong your character actually is. It's also easy to follow the crowd and spend hundreds of thousands of astral diamonds on high level enchantments that barely add anything to your firepower, when you could do more by rearranging your skills, current enchantments, and gear.
Being a GF means you have to be smart, be an independent thinker, and yes, be willing to take some abuse and punishment. There's no margin for error. If you look up the Iron Maiden protector build for PvE, you'll see that it involves careful planning and a very clever combination of skills which the creator had to figure out on their own.
So, basically I disagree that GFs are worthless. They're hard to play, which is why not a lot of people play them, and with such a small community there isn't a lot of support or creativity. Those that do play sometimes think their way is the only way because they themselves secretly believe that they've just barely found a way to not be worthless.
I'm not claiming to be some kind of expert. I've made mistakes, caused party wipes, created terrible builds and gotten my *** kicked at PvP plenty of times. And for all my efforts I only now feel like I'm coming into my own. But after finally achieving positive K/D ratios in PvP, getting praised for handling the mobs in our malabog party with no CW to help, and tanking the dragon itself, I have a pretty good idea of how strong my GF is going to become. You can call me a HAMSTER. But I prefer to think of it as enjoying a challenge.
Guardian fighters are not for everyone. But they are certainly not weak.
Thats my point, you have to be really geared and really reactive smart player to be as good as other classes with lesser gear and lesser skill. That seems wrong to me!
Yeah, but you can t have a class that s easy for everyone to master and another that is only for a select group of people. Because in most cases you ll find that a mediocre character of other classes can fight equally well as an expert class of the other. It s not like the extra dificulty of playing a GF gives you extra rewards or something
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
the ranger is kindof the same way yeah splitshot is great for damage but more often then not it causes problems for fighter and tank classes and the ranger itself as it causes gwfs to chase the enemies that are chasing them because theyve just aggroed the entire area.
it takes skill for every class even cw especially the ones who just jump in to use steal time then when they get knocked or stunned they wonder wtf.
this game IS about skill and intuition; to know what move to use when to use it. This game IS about reaction not just dps; focusing only on dps when you are in a team for example unless heavily geared causes more problems then it actually solves.
its like the cleric can it do great damage? sure but most of the time the team needs to be healed and this makes it a class that takes a certain type of person to play a person who focuses on aiding the team not just smite this smite that and f everyone else which is something that gwf is really good at.
for example i absolutely suck as a tr but i still know how great they are to play and how useful they are to a team.
not every class has that thing that makes it accessible to everyone and not everyone likes or is amazing at every class; doesnt make them useless.
Fact is nothing in this game is absolutely useless; someone, somewhere, sometime, will find a use for everything sometimes all you have to do is get used to it and be creative.
I didnt start out being a good GF i got better because of practice and that practice takes time which for most gamers is of the essence for some reason.
I agree wholeheartedly with wildfire as well hes absolutely right and the buffs have made GF even better than it was pre patch.
with the GF there is no dps there is only spike damage stuns and knocks along with team powers which is just as useful especially against bosses and elites which is why comparing it to dps is pointless its a tank.
Like an actual tank it moves slower than a jeep with a machine gun on it. Yeah the jeep can do dps and drive circles around the tank; but its not gonna do much against the tank who will blow it up in one shot while laughing at and absorbing its dps.
A GF should work as a permanent arcane singularity, keeping all the enemies around him resisting all damage, while the rest of the team disposes of them. Taking threat away from a GF should be quite an acomplishment (if GF is playing well)
A GF should work as a permanent arcane singularity, keeping all the enemies around him resisting all damage, while the rest of the team disposes of them. Taking threat away from a GF should be quite an acomplishment (if GF is playing well)
Pretty much this.
I still get a kick out of the fact that people will complain about generating too much aggro and yet they refuse to take a GF along. Like kicking HR because they generate a ton of hate, but guess what? The HR only pulls aggro because no one does the same level of DPS and there's no competent tank. Shocker, right?
It's really sad, but there is a huge segment of the Neverwinter community that will only overgear instances by several thousand points, and it's because they never learned to do them the 'right' or 'legitimate' way in the first place. So all they know is face tanking everything with bad rotations, which explains how characters with 15k+ GS consistently do worse than smart players in 10k gear.
It's to the point that I don't even look at gear score anymore, I just look at their stat distribution and their weapon enchantment; everything else doesn't prove diddly except they know the best exploits to profit from.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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dissssppppMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
And your comment is a lie.
My Guildmates love my GF: High threat on targets + Locking targets in place makes for happy DPSer's.
And the GF still soaks up damage better than anything.
And since we're farming nearly all the Tier 2's: I'd say anyone who thinks the GF is useless is either A) Doing it wrong Unimaginative or C) Happy glitching and exploiting.
In any case: Since the Patch the GF just got even more fun to play.
PS. All my comments come from a PVE perspective first and foremost: Since the PvP aspect of this game is so horrid; anyone who preaches from that side of the fence is blowing hot air. Neverwinter PvP is the special kid on the MMO block. It has a LONG way to go before it becomes anything close to what is available in other MMO's.
Love my Dwarven Cannonball, and his improved...everything.
I wouldn't say I'm doing it wrong. I've been running an over 18k GF and played him for months until I got too frustrated with the class and rolled a CW. I was very good at the GF, but removing my GF from the mix and adding a second CW to our usual group has made a ridiculous difference. If your guild loves your GF then that's fine. I never had problems getting groups with mine either, and most people liked playing with him in the party whether it was with guildies or a PUG. The smoothness of our runs, total damage taken by the team (substantially lower), and success rate went through the roof when I changed to a CW though.
I'm not saying GF's are worthless, and not saying the can't get groups. I'm saying they are completely redundant, pointless, and don't provide any necessary group function that can't be provided by another class that also offers other additional group skills.
The main point is yes, guardian fighters soak up damage pretty well. However, there's just no reason to soak that damage when you can just avoid taking it all together plus add another massive DPS boost.
The main point is yes, guardian fighters soak up damage pretty well. However, there's just no reason to soak that damage when you can just avoid taking it all together plus add another massive DPS boost.
The real reason is because most CW focus entirely on their own damage, and give zero craps about the rest of the team. So you stack two or more CW who play in that way, even with their subpar control rotations, the overlap is enough to keep things locked down just long enough to kill them. GWF are much the same, so many of them play to maximize personal single target damage that it's a detriment to the rest of the team unless everyone is playing in the most self-centered way possible.
You can easily observe this in any PUG group.
In a pre-made group of balanced characters you'll find that clears are just as quick with surprisingly little effort. Since most people don't seem to play in pre-made groups, it makes sense that everyone focuses on self-centric builds that require far above a dungeons estimated GS to run it effectively.
After all, if you aren't #1 in paingiver you can't stroke your epeen as effectively. A support character that made everything run smoothly is of huge benefit even in PUG's, but without the ability to ruin everyone elses damage rotations with constant knockback or bring the group to the brink of destruction with constant overpull how much damage would these builds really do?
The answer? A lot less. But who cares about team play in a team game, after all, when you can solo all of most dungeons with overgearing.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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dissssppppMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
edited March 2014
I run a greater plaguefire and full set of high vizier's armor on my CW. When you factor in the massive amounts of AE spells wizards have then both do more to debuff and increase group DPS than anything my GF could do. The plaguefire enchantment is much more useful on the CW because of how many mobs it hits. Well unless walking around as a buff bot with a set of Knight Captains armor is a legitimate response. But I don't consider having a class around just to add an armor set buff as a reasonable purpose to include a GF. Being pidgeon-holed into 1 set of armor to buff other players shouldn't be a legitimate solution to complaints about the class. If that's necessary then I don't see how anyone can argue the class isn't broken.
I run a greater plaguefire and full set of high vizier's armor on my CW. When you factor in the massive amounts of AE spells wizards have then both do more to debuff and increase group DPS than anything my GF could do. The plaguefire enchantment is much more useful on the CW because of how many mobs it hits. Well unless walking around as a buff bot with a set of Knight Captains armor is a legitimate response. But I don't consider having a class around just to add an armor set buff as a reasonable purpose to include a GF. Being pidgeon-holed into 1 set of armor to buff other players shouldn't be a legitimate solution to complaints about the class. If that's necessary then I don't see how anyone can argue the class isn't broken.
I think a significant step forward would be to increase the properties of some of the PvE armors so that they are considered more viable, especially the tier 2 sets. The high general set would be much stronger if its crit severity buff stacked at least twice and it didn't have a cooldown (Ant Monster led people to believe it could stack infinitely within 8 seconds, and it still wasn't considered overpowered). I use timeless hero, which is nice because being selfish with your DPS also means you gather up more aggro. (It takes a LOT of firepower to take aggro off of me when I'm keeping Fulminorax busy). But honestly the increased crit frequency isn't that noticeable. It's THERE of course, but if you weren't aware you'd probably just assume you were lucky during that pull.
I believe guardian fighters rely very heavily on the type of gear they use. It makes sense, since they are heavy armor users. Boosting their armor sets would help them shine more.
However, I think they are doing fine in PvP. That could be the problem. If they did get any stronger they might even be considered overpowered, yes you heard me overpowered in PvP. People focus them down because they are afraid of them. They are an archer's and cleric's worst nightmare (heck sometimes even at the same time). They have a huge advantage when ambushing any of the other classes (although it's usually TRs that do the ambushing :P). The only class they consistently lose against is the Great Weapon Fighter. And in terms of PvE GWFs barely have any crowd control, which GFs just need to spam frontline surge and enforced taunt to keep the mobs off balance.
So that's why I think they should improve PvE gear. But I think that's all I could ask for.
yeah the pve set items basic stats are pretty pitiful i didnt see many that i even wanted with my CQ GF because the power gains and crit gains arent that great the only reason my GF is at 13k is because of its double power boost im using the basic of the basic in terms of epics not a single set piece because they all have nothing but like 400-830 defense a bit of deflect and a barely useful power gain at around 100-300 where as most of the other classes get a power gain of around 400 and almost none of them have decent crit which is why crit is so hard to stack.
granted the 4 pc set bonus themselves are very good especially knight captain, timeless, and regent but without reasonable stats i dont really want them as none of these without 4pc even with; have any great stat besides def this is just my opinion though granted defense IS important but its not the only thing that should matter.
I agree though but this discussion about the cw is such a bore we all know what they are capable of and are only good because they have such a high cap on what they can hit with a single spell.
i dont know why everyone has to compare everything to the cw im actually tired of hearing about it because 9 times outta ten im the one scraping the cw offa the floor because he wants to tele in use steal time offensively then get proned or kicked in the face and i have the armor to do survive what he did not even with 10 things hitting me in the back.
and plaguefire for gf is great because the nature of the gf makes it so that it can add the effect to many different enemies because they are surrounded at all times where as a cw sometimes has to move closer to add most of it plus alot of our attacks debuff the HAMSTER out of enemies we hit if it dont debuff then it stuns and if it doesnt stun then it knocks.... plus those debuffs all stack with the cws debuffs anyway.
really though the cw shouldnt be compared it should be an ally because cw thrives when enemies are grouped and not attacking them and the GF is the most adept at grouping them and making sure they dont get swarmed along with the cw's cc its a combo that can be amazing because you are actually losing dps every time you have to teleport out of the way of an attack a gf can keep these times to a minimum.
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auzfireMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
edited March 2014
I think the reason the CWs teleport in and use Steal Time is they basically hold the GF's abilities in contempt. They believe that if we had just brought a second CW, the combined control effects would have been far more effective in preventing their dirt nap, and a whole lot faster than waiting for the tin can to do anything.
heh yeah and they wonder why they are on the mat in the first place they do the same thing regardless its pretty sad when a squishy cant wait for a tank. they dont want it to take for ever yet now they have to go back to the campfire or wait for someone to pick em up kinda counter productive if you ask me lol.
steal time is a defensive measure not an attack spell. like shield or repel is a defensive measure the fact they do damage too is irrelevent.
honestly i just dont get it. i have a cw too i have 3 cws in my roster and not a single one of them does this.
its obvious though that hubris is a huge part of most cws with the cw all it takes is one heavy attack to destroy them anyway shouldnt they want someone to take off the heat so they can turret?
and honestly these forums and some of players on them are partially to blame for this type of attitude we should be working together for the future not fighting like metaphorical democrats and republicans its why nothing in america ever gets done anymore its also why nothing much gets done here.
Its also why things are ninja nerfed as well because the devs end up with all the flak so they just do it and dont tell us anymore they used to post everything they changed until this shift in attitude.
The more flak we end up giving them the less they will tell us and the less they may even work on the game its give and take not just take. Sometimes games are ruined not by the devs but by the players too and this is something i really dont want to see happen to this game.
My opinion on PvP is....I have full T2 tenacity set and belt, rings, neck.etc.... I am still toast against an equally geared permastealth TR, GWF or HR. Even with Tenacity they chew through me easily. Before my regen helped me out but now I get ate. I have almost 6k Defense, 2K Deflection, 1200 regen and 800 lifesteal. GF's need love to compete with equally geared classes.
My opinion on PvE is... I hope you have friends who will carry you. You don't need a GF for VT or MC. We use 4 CW's (I have a CW alt) and a DC or GWF and finish in half the time.
HAMSTER, level 60 GF, "Bloodthirsty" since Mod 2 Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
A bout PvE, yes we are useless as tank when we run epic end game donjons with good team.
And because dev don't care of us, you only have one viable team build : knight capitain set.
Admit it and focus yourself on fun or don't play GF anymore.
About PvP, i feel better now and really enjoy it more.
It's true we have lost cc and regen, but we have gain so much more :
- Less cc on us
- More resist
- Block is now usefull
- Other class loose a lot of life steal
Really we can't cry about PvP, we are still useless as always but stronger
A bout PvE, yes we are useless as tank when we run epic end game donjons with good team.
And because dev don't care of us, you only have one viable team build : knight capitain set.
Admit it and focus yourself on fun or don't play GF anymore.
About PvP, i feel better now and really enjoy it more.
It's true we have lost cc and regen, but we have gain so much more :
- Less cc on us
- More resist
- Block is now usefull
- Other class loose a lot of life steal
Really we can't cry about PvP, we are still useless as always but stronger
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
For a start, GFs are not broken. They are a little clunky so they could be sped up a tad and they need a new TAB, but as a class there is nothing wrong with it. The problem is the game at the high end which is simply geared towards CWs and GWFs; crowd control + nuke = I won the game.
So if people would rather take other classes instead of a GF, then wouldn't this indicate there is a problem with the class? IE...it's broken, in the game as it stands now?
This is what I've experienced too, in my short time playing and I refuse toe spend my time and $$$ on a class only to get him the BOS gear and still be outclassed by lower geared players... I'm making a CW now what Crytip wants and hes so **** OP its ridiculous.
My opinion on PvP is....I have full T2 tenacity set and belt, rings, neck.etc.... I am still toast against an equally geared permastealth TR, GWF or HR. Even with Tenacity they chew through me easily. Before my regen helped me out but now I get ate. I have almost 6k Defense, 2K Deflection, 1200 regen and 800 lifesteal. GF's need love to compete with equally geared classes.
My opinion on PvE is... I hope you have friends who will carry you. You don't need a GF for VT or MC. We use 4 CW's (I have a CW alt) and a DC or GWF and finish in half the time.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Comments
A person who has excellent hand-eye coordination vs someone who doesn't etc. will always do better at things in games then the other person it is a fact of life. You may be one of those exceptional people while the majority of players are NOT.. I hope you are correct and anyone can use it but I doubt it as I saw a post many months ago claiming almost the same thing as you and well............. I think you know how that turned out.....
This build will also be paragon friendly. This build was perfected, IF NOT created by me. (I claim this build as my own because I have yet to see any other GF (besides those I taught) to use these items/powers/feats as I do. However if there is a person who created it before me, I will respect and acknowledge them).
This guide will be in the forum of a YouTube video. Complete with feat, power, and ability selections! I will also teach you how to fight each and every class in PvP correctly, to maximize your OWNAGE! If you want to watch the video as SOON as it's posted, head over to my YouTube and subscribe. See you guys soon!!
My Guildmates love my GF: High threat on targets + Locking targets in place makes for happy DPSer's.
And the GF still soaks up damage better than anything.
And since we're farming nearly all the Tier 2's: I'd say anyone who thinks the GF is useless is either A) Doing it wrong
In any case: Since the Patch the GF just got even more fun to play.
PS. All my comments come from a PVE perspective first and foremost: Since the PvP aspect of this game is so horrid; anyone who preaches from that side of the fence is blowing hot air. Neverwinter PvP is the special kid on the MMO block. It has a LONG way to go before it becomes anything close to what is available in other MMO's.
Love my Dwarven Cannonball, and his improved...everything.
the buffs are sweet btw.
Well said. Sums up the current state of GF pretty much. I try putting some enchant back in the GF and play it after the new PVP patch, it feels better than before( MOD 2) But GF are still outclassed by GWF, we don't do that much dps while we don't tank that well. I am still sticking with my GWF and TR in PVP as far as it goes. GF requires a team to shine, which makes it only fun in a premade and with the fk up queue right now it is no telling what u run into. I honestly think GF needs some sort of complete rework, the TAB ability change feels like a really lazy buff. Good but feels really forced to.
A GF cannot take a point alone, nor can he really pressure an opposing team alone unlike other classes, the GF needs his team around him to be successful and don't expect any big numbers as you will be doing level 35-40 DPS class damage unless you are in the 18k+ GS area which I cannot see anyone doing in this mod as you would have to be a HAMSTER to do it!
GF is a waste of pixels in the game don't waste your $$$$$$ on being a lackluster, boring, poor dps class hell GWF can do everything GFs can better and only suffer maybe 10% DR loss..... Ridiculous!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I admit it does take a bit of a HAMSTER to play a GF. But I think you're exaggerating.
The reason why GFs get focused down is because often it takes 2 people to kill one when the GF knows what they're doing. Try getting a bloodcrystal raven skull and a soulforged. It takes ages for you to die.
Yes, a GF needs his/her team to survive. But likewise a GF can turn around any battle that's going poorly. One of your teammates got caught off guard. In less than a second you use lunging strike and bull rush and the tables have turned. You both gang up on the opponent, beat them, and you move on to the next battle, and the next. And oddly enough in a one on one fight you can still take on most classes, except for the GWF, which still doesn't have the team support abilities you do. Everyone else it's basically who ambushes who first.
GF is arguably the most powerful PvP class when played correctly, because it has this dual support/1v1 ability. But no, you won't get the most number of kills. Too bad.
You partly have to accept that a GF is not a traditional tank. GFs fight in such a way as to help protect the party. GF crowd control is vastly superior to the GWF's. GFs are not juggernauts, but they can still survive more damage than any other class, which unfortunately makes them well suited for kiting, but also for knocking down and drawing away enemies when there's no CW. And if something goes wrong, they will most likely survive while a CW won't.
There are ways for GFs to do lots of damage. They just involve some actual creativity. Thanks to the update, Griffon's Wrath is now a viable PvP skill which, with some practice, can be deadly. GFs can double their damage against an opponent with Knight's challenge, which again takes practice to use. One of the CQ paragon feats, Staggering Challenge, powers up both Griffon's Wrath and Knight's Challenge. That's not a coincidence...
People who have taken the time to study GFs have found that they have a lot of potential. Yes they were underpowered, but more than anything else they are difficult to play and not very intuitive. It takes research. People ruin their GFs by trying to play them as traditional tanks. It's so easy to gimp yourself by stacking as much defense as humanly possible when you don't realize the soft cap is around 3600, and points after than are wasted, making your gear score higher than how strong your character actually is. It's also easy to follow the crowd and spend hundreds of thousands of astral diamonds on high level enchantments that barely add anything to your firepower, when you could do more by rearranging your skills, current enchantments, and gear.
Being a GF means you have to be smart, be an independent thinker, and yes, be willing to take some abuse and punishment. There's no margin for error. If you look up the Iron Maiden protector build for PvE, you'll see that it involves careful planning and a very clever combination of skills which the creator had to figure out on their own.
So, basically I disagree that GFs are worthless. They're hard to play, which is why not a lot of people play them, and with such a small community there isn't a lot of support or creativity. Those that do play sometimes think their way is the only way because they themselves secretly believe that they've just barely found a way to not be worthless.
I'm not claiming to be some kind of expert. I've made mistakes, caused party wipes, created terrible builds and gotten my *** kicked at PvP plenty of times. And for all my efforts I only now feel like I'm coming into my own. But after finally achieving positive K/D ratios in PvP, getting praised for handling the mobs in our malabog party with no CW to help, and tanking the dragon itself, I have a pretty good idea of how strong my GF is going to become. You can call me a HAMSTER. But I prefer to think of it as enjoying a challenge.
Guardian fighters are not for everyone. But they are certainly not weak.
Very well said...+1000
+10000,respect wildfire5
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
it takes skill for every class even cw especially the ones who just jump in to use steal time then when they get knocked or stunned they wonder wtf.
this game IS about skill and intuition; to know what move to use when to use it. This game IS about reaction not just dps; focusing only on dps when you are in a team for example unless heavily geared causes more problems then it actually solves.
its like the cleric can it do great damage? sure but most of the time the team needs to be healed and this makes it a class that takes a certain type of person to play a person who focuses on aiding the team not just smite this smite that and f everyone else which is something that gwf is really good at.
for example i absolutely suck as a tr but i still know how great they are to play and how useful they are to a team.
not every class has that thing that makes it accessible to everyone and not everyone likes or is amazing at every class; doesnt make them useless.
Fact is nothing in this game is absolutely useless; someone, somewhere, sometime, will find a use for everything sometimes all you have to do is get used to it and be creative.
I didnt start out being a good GF i got better because of practice and that practice takes time which for most gamers is of the essence for some reason.
I agree wholeheartedly with wildfire as well hes absolutely right and the buffs have made GF even better than it was pre patch.
with the GF there is no dps there is only spike damage stuns and knocks along with team powers which is just as useful especially against bosses and elites which is why comparing it to dps is pointless its a tank.
Like an actual tank it moves slower than a jeep with a machine gun on it. Yeah the jeep can do dps and drive circles around the tank; but its not gonna do much against the tank who will blow it up in one shot while laughing at and absorbing its dps.
Pretty much this.
I still get a kick out of the fact that people will complain about generating too much aggro and yet they refuse to take a GF along. Like kicking HR because they generate a ton of hate, but guess what? The HR only pulls aggro because no one does the same level of DPS and there's no competent tank. Shocker, right?
It's really sad, but there is a huge segment of the Neverwinter community that will only overgear instances by several thousand points, and it's because they never learned to do them the 'right' or 'legitimate' way in the first place. So all they know is face tanking everything with bad rotations, which explains how characters with 15k+ GS consistently do worse than smart players in 10k gear.
It's to the point that I don't even look at gear score anymore, I just look at their stat distribution and their weapon enchantment; everything else doesn't prove diddly except they know the best exploits to profit from.
I wouldn't say I'm doing it wrong. I've been running an over 18k GF and played him for months until I got too frustrated with the class and rolled a CW. I was very good at the GF, but removing my GF from the mix and adding a second CW to our usual group has made a ridiculous difference. If your guild loves your GF then that's fine. I never had problems getting groups with mine either, and most people liked playing with him in the party whether it was with guildies or a PUG. The smoothness of our runs, total damage taken by the team (substantially lower), and success rate went through the roof when I changed to a CW though.
I'm not saying GF's are worthless, and not saying the can't get groups. I'm saying they are completely redundant, pointless, and don't provide any necessary group function that can't be provided by another class that also offers other additional group skills.
The main point is yes, guardian fighters soak up damage pretty well. However, there's just no reason to soak that damage when you can just avoid taking it all together plus add another massive DPS boost.
The real reason is because most CW focus entirely on their own damage, and give zero craps about the rest of the team. So you stack two or more CW who play in that way, even with their subpar control rotations, the overlap is enough to keep things locked down just long enough to kill them. GWF are much the same, so many of them play to maximize personal single target damage that it's a detriment to the rest of the team unless everyone is playing in the most self-centered way possible.
You can easily observe this in any PUG group.
In a pre-made group of balanced characters you'll find that clears are just as quick with surprisingly little effort. Since most people don't seem to play in pre-made groups, it makes sense that everyone focuses on self-centric builds that require far above a dungeons estimated GS to run it effectively.
After all, if you aren't #1 in paingiver you can't stroke your epeen as effectively. A support character that made everything run smoothly is of huge benefit even in PUG's, but without the ability to ruin everyone elses damage rotations with constant knockback or bring the group to the brink of destruction with constant overpull how much damage would these builds really do?
The answer? A lot less. But who cares about team play in a team game, after all, when you can solo all of most dungeons with overgearing.
I think a significant step forward would be to increase the properties of some of the PvE armors so that they are considered more viable, especially the tier 2 sets. The high general set would be much stronger if its crit severity buff stacked at least twice and it didn't have a cooldown (Ant Monster led people to believe it could stack infinitely within 8 seconds, and it still wasn't considered overpowered). I use timeless hero, which is nice because being selfish with your DPS also means you gather up more aggro. (It takes a LOT of firepower to take aggro off of me when I'm keeping Fulminorax busy). But honestly the increased crit frequency isn't that noticeable. It's THERE of course, but if you weren't aware you'd probably just assume you were lucky during that pull.
I believe guardian fighters rely very heavily on the type of gear they use. It makes sense, since they are heavy armor users. Boosting their armor sets would help them shine more.
However, I think they are doing fine in PvP. That could be the problem. If they did get any stronger they might even be considered overpowered, yes you heard me overpowered in PvP. People focus them down because they are afraid of them. They are an archer's and cleric's worst nightmare (heck sometimes even at the same time). They have a huge advantage when ambushing any of the other classes (although it's usually TRs that do the ambushing :P). The only class they consistently lose against is the Great Weapon Fighter. And in terms of PvE GWFs barely have any crowd control, which GFs just need to spam frontline surge and enforced taunt to keep the mobs off balance.
So that's why I think they should improve PvE gear. But I think that's all I could ask for.
granted the 4 pc set bonus themselves are very good especially knight captain, timeless, and regent but without reasonable stats i dont really want them as none of these without 4pc even with; have any great stat besides def this is just my opinion though granted defense IS important but its not the only thing that should matter.
I agree though but this discussion about the cw is such a bore we all know what they are capable of and are only good because they have such a high cap on what they can hit with a single spell.
i dont know why everyone has to compare everything to the cw im actually tired of hearing about it because 9 times outta ten im the one scraping the cw offa the floor because he wants to tele in use steal time offensively then get proned or kicked in the face and i have the armor to do survive what he did not even with 10 things hitting me in the back.
and plaguefire for gf is great because the nature of the gf makes it so that it can add the effect to many different enemies because they are surrounded at all times where as a cw sometimes has to move closer to add most of it plus alot of our attacks debuff the HAMSTER out of enemies we hit if it dont debuff then it stuns and if it doesnt stun then it knocks.... plus those debuffs all stack with the cws debuffs anyway.
really though the cw shouldnt be compared it should be an ally because cw thrives when enemies are grouped and not attacking them and the GF is the most adept at grouping them and making sure they dont get swarmed along with the cw's cc its a combo that can be amazing because you are actually losing dps every time you have to teleport out of the way of an attack a gf can keep these times to a minimum.
steal time is a defensive measure not an attack spell. like shield or repel is a defensive measure the fact they do damage too is irrelevent.
honestly i just dont get it. i have a cw too i have 3 cws in my roster and not a single one of them does this.
its obvious though that hubris is a huge part of most cws with the cw all it takes is one heavy attack to destroy them anyway shouldnt they want someone to take off the heat so they can turret?
and honestly these forums and some of players on them are partially to blame for this type of attitude we should be working together for the future not fighting like metaphorical democrats and republicans its why nothing in america ever gets done anymore its also why nothing much gets done here.
Its also why things are ninja nerfed as well because the devs end up with all the flak so they just do it and dont tell us anymore they used to post everything they changed until this shift in attitude.
The more flak we end up giving them the less they will tell us and the less they may even work on the game its give and take not just take. Sometimes games are ruined not by the devs but by the players too and this is something i really dont want to see happen to this game.
My opinion on PvP is....I have full T2 tenacity set and belt, rings, neck.etc.... I am still toast against an equally geared permastealth TR, GWF or HR. Even with Tenacity they chew through me easily. Before my regen helped me out but now I get ate. I have almost 6k Defense, 2K Deflection, 1200 regen and 800 lifesteal. GF's need love to compete with equally geared classes.
My opinion on PvE is... I hope you have friends who will carry you. You don't need a GF for VT or MC. We use 4 CW's (I have a CW alt) and a DC or GWF and finish in half the time.
Anarchist, level 60 CW
Arsenic, level 60 TR
Pluck Yew, level 60 HR
Therapissed, level 60 DC
And because dev don't care of us, you only have one viable team build : knight capitain set.
Admit it and focus yourself on fun or don't play GF anymore.
About PvP, i feel better now and really enjoy it more.
It's true we have lost cc and regen, but we have gain so much more :
- Less cc on us
- More resist
- Block is now usefull
- Other class loose a lot of life steal
Really we can't cry about PvP, we are still useless as always but stronger
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
So if people would rather take other classes instead of a GF, then wouldn't this indicate there is a problem with the class? IE...it's broken, in the game as it stands now?
I even named him Overpowered! lmao
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Yeah,me to.I made another GWF,and my 18k GF is retired.
My guildies still take full advantage of me handling the mobs/spreading Plaguefire.
Nobody dies; we clear; win.
Still viable.