Yes so you people who are pre-mades and are going to win regardless of how skilled some of the other team is is BS.
Why should I have to give you free kills etc? You want to play a very strong pre-made vs a pug I have every right to at least make you suffer by giving you NOTHING to do but sit around while I wait for the end of the match.
Crockshi* of an excuse, as with any other posts in this lousy thread that makes up a zillion excuses for the beggars groveling for rewards they did not earn. Premades is a non-issue, since a ranking system is already in works. A team with people who make regular premades will get higher ranks, and they will be matched up with people at the same level, most probably another premade. It usually takes maybe a week or two at most until the "ranks" stabilize, but after that, you've got zero excuse about 'premades'.
So, what are you going to blame next?
Now if it is a ranked match sure no standing at fire, but just a regular Joe..................
Then stop being a regular Joe and get better. Problem solved.
If you aren't really interested in PvP, and you're just doing it for the goodies it holds, and you don't feel the rush to get all better, then is it not only fitting that you get to receive it a lot slower than those who enjoy it more, play it more, and practice/invest in it more to get better in it?
There's no changing the fact. It's been seen in countless games before.
(1) More incentives/rewards for the losing side simply means more hordes of people who come in and just do nothing. Camping and non-action already gains you goodies, so WTF should anyone even try anything?
(2) A penalty to that camping and non-action simply means the system will filter out THOSE WHO DON'T DESERVE TO BE IN PVP MATCH IN THE FIRST PLACE -- the people with the beggar mentality who has ZERO interest in PvP, zero interest in enjoying the content, those who queue seeking rewards and incentives that they've contributed nothing to win, and therefore is not entitled nor deserved.
(3) The system already gives rewards and incentives -- at least a meager portion of glory for anyone who reaches 300 points, most usually a feat anyone in any match can easily achieve most of the time.
If you're gonna raise the middle finger and try to weasle your way out in earning rewards you don't deserve, like how the chickenshi* folk mod2 PvP have been queuing and doing, then that's all fine and dandy. Really. Please feel free to do so.
Your rank will simply slide down to the lowest possible rank-level where HORDES of people with the exact same mentality swim around the red ocean of incompetence. Every game you play, you will be playing with 9 other people who are exactly like you, non-action, camping, leaving games, trying to rig matches, etc etc.. and you'll have ZERO people to latch on to like a parasite to get freebie wins for you.
Good luck trying to get "rewards" in that dump. ROFL
As it is, ultimately the rank system filters the filth from the cream. You try more, you be more sincere, and you'll always find people of your similar rank to enjoy well-matched games, win a few, lose a few, get some nice rewards in the process. Or, you could do PvP with the mindset some of the losers in this thread are implying -- and end up knee-deep in the bottomless pit of abyssal rankers.
Your choice, brothers.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Actually I would be totally fine with a PVP match that was just cap trading. It would make the glory farming faster. If that is what the lower ranked PVP matches will be like then I'm all for it.
Thank you for confirming that. So nothing changes in respect to the rewards. The game still tries to get you into PvP with rewards useful for PvE and it creates a certain attitude like " ok, here we go. Neverember has PvP for daily. Guess I'll have to get through an hour of this stuff again". And -I think- that's where the game turns sour. Now, if you rewards PvPers with enchantments that allow them to stack tenacity and put the artifact up for.. idk 150G? (as long as it's something everybody can attain I'm good) Completely useless PvP rewards to the average PvE player. But what you get in return is fights. Real fights. People who want to win. Less leavers/afkers, and maybe less matches a day. But the matches that do start, are actually fought. Not leeched.
well, i think all aspects of the game are designed for everyone to enjoy, not just the hardcore crowd. that's why matchmaking is such an important aspect of pvp. its also a clear sign that the developers do listen to the player base in conjunction with whatever internal metrics they have. that's not to say that they won't try to make everyone happier as a long term goal... things do take time to implement. it's very difficult to give everybody what they want and sometimes it's just not feasible.
I think we have to disagree on your beggar claims. I proposed a fair reward for a fair fight and there have been ideas brought up throughout that even would punish your beggars more than today while rewarding those who want to PVP and fight through disconnects, undermanned, whatnot.
Again: People better understand that these strict appliance of a pure PVP mindset only contributes to the overall problem. Just one example: Ten players farming for glory and matched up by the ELO is a dream come true for those. It's either an easy win or unanimous camping. Which is exactly what generates the most glory under the current system. Of course, matchmaking will, as you've pointed out, bring separation of some shape and form, but it doesn't add incentive to play legit PVP in any way.
The incentive to play "legit PVP" is a good fight against a challenging opponent where the split second decisions you make actually have some bearing on whether you win or lose. If you don't understand that I don't think any amount of rewards will make you happy with PVP.
When I lose a match and have no points because my entire team was so terrible that I couldn't cap anything or get any kills, that's one thing.
When I cap a point, get a kill or two and get three or four assists, lose the match and still get nothing, that's another thing altogether. If you have points at the end of a match, it shows you did something and you should be guaranteed a minimum amount of glory for that, even if it's just 100. You can say "then get better if you want to stop losing", but it doesn't address the fact that unless the other team is AFK or truly and hilariously awful, one person cannot carry an entire team to victory by themselves no matter how good they are.
There's no reason I should suffer the exact same consequence for losing as the rest of my team when I made a measurable effort (ie earning points) and they did not.
Yeah, because the team that lost in the World Series or the Superbowl should get something too. They get nothing and they spent a whole year trying to get their "glory."
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- JailBreak (in development)
Yeah, because the team that lost in the World Series or the Superbowl should get something too. They get nothing and they spent a whole year trying to get their "glory."
They do get something. They get crazy amounts of publicity even for just playing in the game at all and they get contracts guaranteeing they'll be paid millions of dollars a year just for playing on the team, whether their team even goes to the World Series/Super Bowl that year or not.
While I would've suggested this as an option previously, I now no longer see the point of this. With matchmaking introduced, your average player will have a 50% win/lose ratio and be paired up people who are of similar skill in order to maintain this ratio. The only reason it is a problem now is because you will constantly be paired with better people and be unable to win. This fixes that.
The incentive to play "legit PVP" is a good fight against a challenging opponent where the split second decisions you make actually have some bearing on whether you win or lose. If you don't understand that I don't think any amount of rewards will make you happy with PVP.
These appeals haven't worked out so far. Reasons have been stated in this thread and are a mixture of crappy rewards, players that can't lose and PVE-viable items in PVP. As long as these issues remain unresolved, don't expect a change.
Yeah, because the team that lost in the World Series or the Superbowl should get something too. They get nothing and they spent a whole year trying to get their "glory."
That's a shaky comparison. I think the best way to deal with the different interests is to give the PVP community a separate, team oriented ladder, in which they purely fight for ranking and not for glory. In such a tourney environment, your claims hold true, otherwise not so much.
you know what, if you have 3 matches in pvp hour that last 20 minutes or so, just because of that time, already seems to me to be 3 good matches. Meaning people fought over all 3 nodes, they struggled, and played to win. I would not fault my team on this, and even with a loss would be happy.
In most cases that is nt the case, but also no, considering I can do 50 pvp matches a day etc, little rewards in a good match is fine by me. They earned the win, they earned the lions share.
There are some variables though, did you lose because you had say, an hr on your team that refused to stand on nodes try to take them etc, and really use their skills on node to disable movement, things of this nature for your team? If so then it was a 4v5, and not 5v5, and the reason you lost was not because of the four trying, but because specifically of the ranger in this.
In both circumstances hold your head high, because a match in this manner are the harder matches, and rewarding just to be in them. They are rare considering how bad most players are in pvp
When he says the incentive to pvp is for the pvp, he is right. Unless you are a complete beginner, you shouldn't have any reason to do pvp than for the gear or for fun. The gear doesn't take long to get, even if you lose a lot. Salvaging items from pvp is an extremely poor way to make money and very slow compared to just running dungeon. With the current system glory becomes useless after about 2-3 weeks of playing pvp. At least the new gear will be something to work for.
While I would've suggested this as an option previously, I now no longer see the point of this. With matchmaking introduced, your average player will have a 50% win/lose ratio and be paired up people who are of similar skill in order to maintain this ratio. The only reason it is a problem now is because you will constantly be paired with better people and be unable to win. This fixes that.
Yes and no. The main problem, that quitting, camping out matches and only fight winning encounters is best to max glory, remains unresolved.
Yeah, because the team that lost in the World Series or the Superbowl should get something too. They get nothing and they spent a whole year trying to get their "glory."
Players on the team that lost the super bowl received a $46,000 bonus. Players on the team that lost the world series recieved a $284,264.50 bonus.
Yes and no. The main problem, that quitting, camping out matches and only fight winning encounters is best to max glory, remains unresolved.
Leaver penalty is coming with the matchmaking anyway. Problem solved. Not to mention being paired with people of your skill will help avoid quitting on its own without the leaver penalty anyway.
Did they receive as much as the winning team? :P Not to mention they would've had to win most of their games to make it to those matches.
SB loser share is 50% of winners share, WS is 75%. There are additional bonus's for all the prior playoff rounds. I don't think it would be inappropriate to guarantee people who fully participate in a match some kind of reward, the issue is in separating those who participated and failed miserably from bots or people who don't try at all. I don't have any problems with the current system, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if everyone who stayed for a whole match (and didn't just sit in the spawn) and scored at least some points was guaranteed a couple hundred glory.
Leaver penalty is coming with the matchmaking anyway. Problem solved. Not to mention being paired with people of your skill will help avoid quitting on its own without the leaver penalty anyway.
leaver penalty has solved nothing, its been explained repeatedly in many places.
?However since the eso system is faulty anyway (see final fantasy online, etc et al) iif you expect competative matches, really dont.
What is happening though, is that players, the competative ones, are no longer pugging. This solves much of their issue. There are pvp groups out there as of after this change. What you will happen is these constant whiners that cant play, and were alwyas made to suffer their lack by people leaving them, etc, will be constantly ran over.
They will not get the 300 points in most cases when they all rush the back node. trust me. and after camped for rest of the match, at least they couldnt leave without penalty right? and have to suffer 7 min of pvp sitting at their campfire. Or they can feed us. They still wont get any rewards from the time spent though.
This solves more of our problems, as competative players, with the majority of the people in matches save one, competative play, which has yet no real fix.
What a good idea. Wait - wasn't this suggested in the very first reply to the thread:
What a wonderful individual this McOnosRep chappie must be to have figured this out at the start......
It was a vote of confidence for your "original" idea that I've posted in the past as well. I was agreeing with you and reinforcing the point of the thread. :-P
Did they receive as much as the winning team? :P Not to mention they would've had to win most of their games to make it to those matches.
No...this is what I found on the internet... XLV - winner bonus $83,000 / loser bonus $42,000
Regardless of what people thought about my intentionally bad analogy the point is that getting anything for losing is a gift.
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readytoredrumMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 65Arc User
edited March 2014
Your request will be fulfilled in the upcoming patch. There are some changes in the rewards system
I don't mind losing... but what battle are we talking about again? Anyway, the Leaver penalty is a good first step to encouraging people to not be lazy when Q-ing for PVP. People should fight in PVP, not be lazy freeloading campers. The only place to camp is the opponent's spawn point. The next logical step to take would be to discourage people from camping their own spawn points. I'm pretty sure Cryptic already has an idea in the works.
Although I personally like your idea about getting rewards close to the winning teams if matches were really close like 999 to 1000.
It's because they are trying to make it take longer thats all, basically they are trying to introduce more grind for it, if they take away 100 glory from each match if you do anything more than 5 matches in a day you end up loosing glory, so those people that were grinding out 20-50 matches in a day end up loosing a lot of glory, those that only do the matches for the daily rewards end up getting more glory. Basically a time sink..... ohh joy....
Yeah, that's probably right. So best is to just do one event hour, get the dailies and some matches in and back off after that.
Thought I'd add the math to the discussion:
The base glory reward, as it has been mentioned somewhere else (can't find), has nothing to do with team points, personal points or opposing team points. It's (7/9)*matchseconds for the winning team and it's capped at 15 minutes. That's it. And you get a 25/20/15/10/5% bonus for the 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th spot.
The base reward for winning a 15 minute match is 700, or was 700. Because as stated in the preview patch notes, this has been decreased to 500, or (5/9).
The base reward for losing a match was 233,33 or (7/27)*(15*60) or (1/3) of the winning team and is now 166,66 or (5/27)*(15*60).
This also means that the glory progression is linear, meaning it's best to stretch a win to 15 minutes and get losing efforts over as soon as possible for max glory/minute. This is what I've been telling all along and can be backed up by the math. Also cap trading, which in the public perception helps the losing side, ironically plays in the hands of the winning side, because the match is extended and they get (7/9) glory per second for an extended period. I personally denied cap trading because I thought it wasn't effective overall, but now will of course generously grant it unless the match already surpassed the 15 minute mark.
I think handing out glory solely based on seconds played is a bit "cheap". I actually thought team points would play a minor role in the formula, but that it simply doesn't factor in at all is astonishing. Some people suggested that glory rewards are better if the losing team surpasses 100 points or 133 or whatnot, all wrong perceptions. 1000:1 will give you 7/9 glory per second and 1000:999 as well.
IM just gonna say it. With all the new stuff for PvP and the leaver penalty and a possible spawn camp penalty, dont be shocked at seeing more perma stealth TRs who seem to disappear (PUN!) after getting their min required points for glory.
perhaps that's not the right way to put that statement. items available for glory to date are desirable but not required. so it would be more accurate to say that the game has attractive incentives to PvP.
I think the game entices people ,that are aware of PvP and have made the decision that they do not like it, to join PvP. Earning glory with PvP is incredibly faster by losing matches than by gathering earth/fire in the GG PvE event.
I think the artifact is extremely attractive for PvE, so it might not have been a wise decision in the first place that the only way to obtain it is through PvP.
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Comments
Crockshi* of an excuse, as with any other posts in this lousy thread that makes up a zillion excuses for the beggars groveling for rewards they did not earn. Premades is a non-issue, since a ranking system is already in works. A team with people who make regular premades will get higher ranks, and they will be matched up with people at the same level, most probably another premade. It usually takes maybe a week or two at most until the "ranks" stabilize, but after that, you've got zero excuse about 'premades'.
So, what are you going to blame next?
Then stop being a regular Joe and get better. Problem solved.
If you aren't really interested in PvP, and you're just doing it for the goodies it holds, and you don't feel the rush to get all better, then is it not only fitting that you get to receive it a lot slower than those who enjoy it more, play it more, and practice/invest in it more to get better in it?
There's no changing the fact. It's been seen in countless games before.
If you're gonna raise the middle finger and try to weasle your way out in earning rewards you don't deserve, like how the chickenshi* folk mod2 PvP have been queuing and doing, then that's all fine and dandy. Really. Please feel free to do so.
Your rank will simply slide down to the lowest possible rank-level where HORDES of people with the exact same mentality swim around the red ocean of incompetence. Every game you play, you will be playing with 9 other people who are exactly like you, non-action, camping, leaving games, trying to rig matches, etc etc.. and you'll have ZERO people to latch on to like a parasite to get freebie wins for you.
Good luck trying to get "rewards" in that dump. ROFL
As it is, ultimately the rank system filters the filth from the cream. You try more, you be more sincere, and you'll always find people of your similar rank to enjoy well-matched games, win a few, lose a few, get some nice rewards in the process. Or, you could do PvP with the mindset some of the losers in this thread are implying -- and end up knee-deep in the bottomless pit of abyssal rankers.
Your choice, brothers.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
well, i think all aspects of the game are designed for everyone to enjoy, not just the hardcore crowd. that's why matchmaking is such an important aspect of pvp. its also a clear sign that the developers do listen to the player base in conjunction with whatever internal metrics they have. that's not to say that they won't try to make everyone happier as a long term goal... things do take time to implement. it's very difficult to give everybody what they want and sometimes it's just not feasible.
I think we have to disagree on your beggar claims. I proposed a fair reward for a fair fight and there have been ideas brought up throughout that even would punish your beggars more than today while rewarding those who want to PVP and fight through disconnects, undermanned, whatnot.
Again: People better understand that these strict appliance of a pure PVP mindset only contributes to the overall problem. Just one example: Ten players farming for glory and matched up by the ELO is a dream come true for those. It's either an easy win or unanimous camping. Which is exactly what generates the most glory under the current system. Of course, matchmaking will, as you've pointed out, bring separation of some shape and form, but it doesn't add incentive to play legit PVP in any way.
When I cap a point, get a kill or two and get three or four assists, lose the match and still get nothing, that's another thing altogether. If you have points at the end of a match, it shows you did something and you should be guaranteed a minimum amount of glory for that, even if it's just 100. You can say "then get better if you want to stop losing", but it doesn't address the fact that unless the other team is AFK or truly and hilariously awful, one person cannot carry an entire team to victory by themselves no matter how good they are.
There's no reason I should suffer the exact same consequence for losing as the rest of my team when I made a measurable effort (ie earning points) and they did not.
- JailBreak (in development)
They do get something. They get crazy amounts of publicity even for just playing in the game at all and they get contracts guaranteeing they'll be paid millions of dollars a year just for playing on the team, whether their team even goes to the World Series/Super Bowl that year or not.
Your analogy is terrible.
These appeals haven't worked out so far. Reasons have been stated in this thread and are a mixture of crappy rewards, players that can't lose and PVE-viable items in PVP. As long as these issues remain unresolved, don't expect a change.
That's a shaky comparison. I think the best way to deal with the different interests is to give the PVP community a separate, team oriented ladder, in which they purely fight for ranking and not for glory. In such a tourney environment, your claims hold true, otherwise not so much.
In most cases that is nt the case, but also no, considering I can do 50 pvp matches a day etc, little rewards in a good match is fine by me. They earned the win, they earned the lions share.
There are some variables though, did you lose because you had say, an hr on your team that refused to stand on nodes try to take them etc, and really use their skills on node to disable movement, things of this nature for your team? If so then it was a 4v5, and not 5v5, and the reason you lost was not because of the four trying, but because specifically of the ranger in this.
In both circumstances hold your head high, because a match in this manner are the harder matches, and rewarding just to be in them. They are rare considering how bad most players are in pvp
Yes and no. The main problem, that quitting, camping out matches and only fight winning encounters is best to max glory, remains unresolved.
Players on the team that lost the super bowl received a $46,000 bonus. Players on the team that lost the world series recieved a $284,264.50 bonus.
Leaver penalty is coming with the matchmaking anyway. Problem solved. Not to mention being paired with people of your skill will help avoid quitting on its own without the leaver penalty anyway.
Did they receive as much as the winning team? :P Not to mention they would've had to win most of their games to make it to those matches.
SB loser share is 50% of winners share, WS is 75%. There are additional bonus's for all the prior playoff rounds. I don't think it would be inappropriate to guarantee people who fully participate in a match some kind of reward, the issue is in separating those who participated and failed miserably from bots or people who don't try at all. I don't have any problems with the current system, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if everyone who stayed for a whole match (and didn't just sit in the spawn) and scored at least some points was guaranteed a couple hundred glory.
leaver penalty has solved nothing, its been explained repeatedly in many places.
?However since the eso system is faulty anyway (see final fantasy online, etc et al) iif you expect competative matches, really dont.
What is happening though, is that players, the competative ones, are no longer pugging. This solves much of their issue. There are pvp groups out there as of after this change. What you will happen is these constant whiners that cant play, and were alwyas made to suffer their lack by people leaving them, etc, will be constantly ran over.
They will not get the 300 points in most cases when they all rush the back node. trust me. and after camped for rest of the match, at least they couldnt leave without penalty right? and have to suffer 7 min of pvp sitting at their campfire. Or they can feed us. They still wont get any rewards from the time spent though.
This solves more of our problems, as competative players, with the majority of the people in matches save one, competative play, which has yet no real fix.
It was a vote of confidence for your "original" idea that I've posted in the past as well. I was agreeing with you and reinforcing the point of the thread. :-P
No...this is what I found on the internet... XLV - winner bonus $83,000 / loser bonus $42,000
Regardless of what people thought about my intentionally bad analogy the point is that getting anything for losing is a gift.
- JailBreak (in development)
Red
Cafè Crêpe•Control Wizard
Did I miss something? Overall glory from Domination has been decreased universally, but they've added two dailies for 500 glory each.
It's because they are trying to make it take longer thats all, basically they are trying to introduce more grind for it, if they take away 100 glory from each match if you do anything more than 5 matches in a day you end up loosing glory, so those people that were grinding out 20-50 matches in a day end up loosing a lot of glory, those that only do the matches for the daily rewards end up getting more glory. Basically a time sink..... ohh joy....
Thought I'd add the math to the discussion:
The base glory reward, as it has been mentioned somewhere else (can't find), has nothing to do with team points, personal points or opposing team points. It's (7/9)*matchseconds for the winning team and it's capped at 15 minutes. That's it. And you get a 25/20/15/10/5% bonus for the 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th spot.
The base reward for winning a 15 minute match is 700, or was 700. Because as stated in the preview patch notes, this has been decreased to 500, or (5/9).
The base reward for losing a match was 233,33 or (7/27)*(15*60) or (1/3) of the winning team and is now 166,66 or (5/27)*(15*60).
This also means that the glory progression is linear, meaning it's best to stretch a win to 15 minutes and get losing efforts over as soon as possible for max glory/minute. This is what I've been telling all along and can be backed up by the math. Also cap trading, which in the public perception helps the losing side, ironically plays in the hands of the winning side, because the match is extended and they get (7/9) glory per second for an extended period. I personally denied cap trading because I thought it wasn't effective overall, but now will of course generously grant it unless the match already surpassed the 15 minute mark.
I think handing out glory solely based on seconds played is a bit "cheap". I actually thought team points would play a minor role in the formula, but that it simply doesn't factor in at all is astonishing. Some people suggested that glory rewards are better if the losing team surpasses 100 points or 133 or whatnot, all wrong perceptions. 1000:1 will give you 7/9 glory per second and 1000:999 as well.
I think the artifact is extremely attractive for PvE, so it might not have been a wise decision in the first place that the only way to obtain it is through PvP.