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Please make losing in PVP more rewarding
loboguild
Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
Going through the PVP hour I once again experienced how flawed the current system is. I was pugging and lost all three matches (~20 minutes each) during the event hour, one 999 to 1000, and went out with 1k+ glory (Silveries slotted).
As someone who is not afraid to leave PVP matches to max personal gain I know 3k glory is the minimum you can get out of the event hour (4k more likely). The math is simple: A 20 minute losing effort will net you about ~350 glory, a 7 minute winning effort ~500. It's just off. People suggested time as the decisive factor for glory and I tend to agree because personal or team points seem to have a minor impact on glory gain. Long enduring (and close) fights are the most unprofitable matches although these should reward the most glory, win or lose. When I'm losing 999 to 1000 I expect to gain 99.90% of the glory the winning team receives, because the match was that close. Instead, I'm slapped with 1/4th at best.
The current system invites people to leave matches and the new leaver penalty will only shift the problem. The max glory gain per event hour should decrease a little because of the leaver penalty but overall it's still more rewarding to sit out losing efforts and play out only obvious winning encounters. This has been pointed out in the preview section as one of the major underlying issues of the leaver problem that remains unresolved.
As someone who is not afraid to leave PVP matches to max personal gain I know 3k glory is the minimum you can get out of the event hour (4k more likely). The math is simple: A 20 minute losing effort will net you about ~350 glory, a 7 minute winning effort ~500. It's just off. People suggested time as the decisive factor for glory and I tend to agree because personal or team points seem to have a minor impact on glory gain. Long enduring (and close) fights are the most unprofitable matches although these should reward the most glory, win or lose. When I'm losing 999 to 1000 I expect to gain 99.90% of the glory the winning team receives, because the match was that close. Instead, I'm slapped with 1/4th at best.
The current system invites people to leave matches and the new leaver penalty will only shift the problem. The max glory gain per event hour should decrease a little because of the leaver penalty but overall it's still more rewarding to sit out losing efforts and play out only obvious winning encounters. This has been pointed out in the preview section as one of the major underlying issues of the leaver problem that remains unresolved.
Post edited by loboguild on
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So for a 15 minute match where team A earned 800 points and team B earned 1000 points them the Glory earned by team A would be:
CONSTANT VALUE * time of match * points earned by A / (points earned by A + points earned by
= CONSTANT * 15 * 800 /(1800)
with a maximum time cap for a match to prevent exploitation.
This would reward people to keep fighting far more so than the current situation, and encourage team-play since it is the team's overall score that matters and not just your individual performance.
If we start rewarding the losers any higher, then where's the incentive for winning?
"Meh, the enemy's definately stronger than us, let's hug the campfire, we still get like 800 glory even if we lose! PROFIT!"
...
You queue to the match. You find the enemy is strong. You lose, you don't get much rewards. There's nothing wrong with it. That's PvP. If someone's not prepared to accept that as a result, then that someone shouldn't be playing a competitive content.
Where's the incentive to PvP? The fight itself is the incentive. You fight intelligent, free-thinking human beings that may actually be stronger than you, out-maneuver you, defeat you -- rather than stupid predictable AI programming that just has gazillion HP and mega-damage to make up for the stupidness. Whatever purpose you queue yourself to PvP, the one and only truth is you fight to win, and win to be rewarded --- if you lose, there is no such thing as a "compensation" or "consolation prize". Heck, as long as you get 300 points (cap 1 node), you'r guaranteed some glory -- the game's already generous enough to provide you with that.
If you don't like being rewarded so little in glory because of your loss, then you can always become a better player and WIN.
Again, that's what it means to PvP. Don't think otherwise.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Nonetheless, such appeals to the honor of players (try to get better or quit altogether, yada-yada-yada) have led to nothing. Players found a way to handle with the rewards and started quitting PVP in bunches, so you already lost this argument with the majority. It might be time to try another direction.
I think what the devs should fix first would be AFK-ing by the Campfire. Make it so that people are kicked off the match when they stay in the Respawn Zone for more than 1 minute. Leavers are annoying, but AFK-ers who freeload on your efforts are more annoying.
I think you mis-understand how incentives work. As things stand if you've capped a node and are losing badly your best bet is to squat by the campfire and cap nothing so the match will end quicker. Which is an incentive to PVP less rather than improve. I think what mconostep is suggesting is an incentive to keep fighting when you are losing.
I think you can't win this battle anyway. They are now trying the leaver penalty and will soon realize people are just camping instead. Fix camping and people will start running out and won't fight back and/or avoid points to shorten the match.
And nobody said the rewards should be near to or exactly like winning the match. I'd like to get nearly as much glory as the winning team if I lose 999 to 1000, but with opponents camping the encounter would end like 1000 to 50 and in that case, with a focus on team points, AFKer could even earn less glory than they are now.
b4 they add the camping penalty, i wonder if they are gonna stop the spawn camping. can u imagine 2 gwf's jumping up to spawn to wreck your whole team, then everyone suffers the penalty and can't do anything for 30 mins because of that?
more on-topic, i agree with u on people just jumping down and letting themselves get killed. better for the match to end quicker, than to exhaust yourself getting the same rewards (if any) or like 50 glory more.
what everyone is forgetting is that most people just want the glory for artifact/pet or doing dailies.
I've often started a match, and before the gate even opens up to fight, a disconnected person will just get kicked off, and then you're 4 vs 5 from launch.
Stuff like that is equally irritating. Equally geared or unequally, it doesn't matter. A player short is a huge handicap to endure for an entire match duration.
You imply that handing out free wins is bad, which it is, but guess what... that's a free win. All the while the losing team has to fight/work twice as hard and for what? That one in a million chance they pull off the victory? Or the sure bet that all that work is completely futile, and you just landed yourself an astonishingly atrocious glory gain for services rendered. =P
Also, let em have the camping penalty, but don't come crying when you find yourselves with no one to play with because all the old pvpers got tired of fighting the same players over and over and left and no new players want to pvp with these penalties. You got want you wanted, live with it.
That was the reward for three matches (~60 minutes of PVP) total during the event hour (+50% Glory) with three R8 Silveries (+21% Glory) slotted. I failed to qualify for the Top 5 every single time, otherwise I could have gotten a bit more.
Result: you are awarded 0 Glory. It's really harsh to be punished so hard for not being a leaver... I'm not saying that loosers should have their rewards buffed as OP suggests, but on other hand 0 Glory for participating in whole match, not being afk but fighting is really demotivating. Minimal reward for active participating in a whole match should be guaranteed (~100 Glory).
There's nothing "hardcore" about giving due reward to the winners, nor is there anything "hardcore" about not rewarding the losers. This has nothing to do with "hardcore PvP mentality" at all.
...
The only thing this has got to do with is the lazy, bum-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, defeatist freeloaders that want to get more profit than they've rightfully earned. The same line of pathetic reasoning behind the bunch of losers who demand cap-trading to leech of a game which they've lost, but still want more points than they deserve.
"It's a beggar's mindset" That's what it is.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I don't mind losing... but what battle are we talking about again? Anyway, the Leaver penalty is a good first step to encouraging people to not be lazy when Q-ing for PVP. People should fight in PVP, not be lazy freeloading campers. The only place to camp is the opponent's spawn point. The next logical step to take would be to discourage people from camping their own spawn points.
Although I personally like your idea about getting rewards close to the winning teams if matches were really close like 999 to 1000.
But for far too long too many PvP matches went like this: You (a PuG) meet a premade / way stronger team, have no chance, and get spawncamped a few minutes after the match started. So you are bound to your spawnpoint, with no chance to do anything anymore.
You could ask for 1on1s, but from my experience very few accept them. If you from Thursday on leave such a match (which is just a waste of time at this point, because you most likely won't get any Glory, because you couldn't get enough points.), you get locked out of any queue for some time. So you are forced to stay in a hopelessly lost match, if you don't wanna get locked out of queueing after this match.
And if such a thing as todesfaelle suggested (getting kicked after staying at spawnpoint for 1 minute, or so) is implemeted you basically are even forced to drop down and let yourself getting killed, to not get kicked.
But even without such a change, you can't "earn" anything anymore in such a "match".
So, what exactly makes you a "beggar" in such a case?
EDIT: And if a match is close and you really lose only 1000:900+, you should get the same few Glory points as when you would've lost 1000:100? Really? That seems way to "black and white" to me.
You should be rewarded for fighting. If you win you should get of course more Glory than the losing team. But factor in the points the losing team managed to get in the Glory gain formula, is a very good idea in my book.
That doesn't mean that reward shouldn't be catered and improved for close matches for the people who contributed more within the match although an accurate system to measure individual contributions does not currently exist.
Simply raising the consolation prize doesn't encourage anything positive.
Remove the incentive for people who don't want to do PvP...and they'll stop turning up, and PvP could then be comprised entirely of people who actually want to be there.
Hopefully the introduction of armour and stuff with actual PvP-specific stats will encourage this, since it's not gonna be useful outside of PvP, but we'll see.
idk, as a non-perma rouge the only set i ever really liked is malabog (which can kill every pc due to a bug) and practically every other set is geared towards stealth or just not worth it. one of the pvp sets even have deflect which is ironically not a part of most rouge gear despite rouges having the best deflect severity in the game. if the stats are good, then it just might be what i need since i am not willing to go after malabog.
....oh, hello "open-world PvP expansion"....le sigh.
idk exactly how it will be, but that pvp set may still be worth it if it gives more deflect than the rest of these sets. i really only care about deflect and recovery as we get enough critical outside of the stat and i already gave up armor penetration for my stat build xD
Additionally I hope the new PvP system balances teams. I have seen teams as ridiculous as 2 hunter, 2 wizards, and 1 healer up against a premade of 2 GWFs, 2 GFs and a healer. That is a ridiculous match to play -- impossible to win.
Which leads me to wonder -- how come melee fighters have range powers? Isn't it enough that they can pretty much kill a squishy with one or 2 hits; do they really need to be able to do it at a distance? I get that is a fantasy game, but CW has pretty much been nerfed by all the "magical" qualities given to other classes. I mean if TR get invisibility, than CW teleport should really teleport - not just give me a speed boost.
Well that turned into a wide ranging rant, but you get the point. Balance!!!!!;)
If the rewards are based largely on points scored, overall closeness of the match and with an added bonus for the winner, you have given both sides an incentive to fight the entire match. Incentive. You've given the team who will ultimately lose, a positive reason to keep fighting.
This is infinitely better than attempting to force them to continue a futile match by negative reinforcement, penalizing them for quitting. That just alters their behavior enough to get by. Then you'll have people camping and others calling for a penalty for campers. Then the campers will just run blindly around trying their best to avoid a fight and ending the match faster.
Incentives good.
Penalty bad.
What a good idea. Wait - wasn't this suggested in the very first reply to the thread:
What a wonderful individual this McOnosRep chappie must be to have figured this out at the start......
perhaps that's not the right way to put that statement. items available for glory to date are desirable but not required. so it would be more accurate to say that the game has attractive incentives to PvP.
that said, the losing players used to get more glory at game launch but that was changed, i think, to deter botting. and for the most part, i think it's worked. now glory rewards are going to be reduced even more in matches, but you will get daily rewards of glory in addition to rAD and one of the new seals:
Yes so you people who are pre-mades and are going to win regardless of how skilled some of the other team is is BS. Why should I have to give you free kills etc? You want to play a very strong pre-made vs a pug I have every right to at least make you suffer by giving you NOTHING to do but sit around while I wait for the end of the match.
Now if it is a ranked match sure no standing at fire, but just a regular Joe..................
Basically pvp is only fun if you are being contested close enough to your gear score .. otherwise you are either stomp rolling, or being stomp rolled. So lets say 25% of the matches are fun, 25% your getting stomp rolled , 25% your stomp rolling and the other 25% right now people show up and either drop in a few seconds or camp after a few seconds.
Im not a huge fan of forcing people to get pvp sets, usually other games pvp sets are for the people who just cant tolerate any pve, which I never got, but hey to each their own.
Case in point, I was clearly on the high GS side last night with a group, because I could basically cake walk around the map and do whatever I wanted, even against the GWFs, CWs on the other team, trust me , its not my skill that was doing that =P... Ive never had it so easy on my DC.. I had like 11 kills zero deaths and 38 assists and was second in points behind a gwf on my side. If its even remotely close , Im usually like 1-2 kills 8-10 deaths and 30 something assists, thats typical for me, on closely contested teams.
But I was 1 vs 1 the cws , gwfs and trs on the other team, my team stomp rolled through the map , though we decided to let them cap instead of just wasting them (still fought them, but just wouldn't contest every darn node ) so they could get some points. I think if people were a little more fair minded about that, other people wouldn't be so quick to jump and camp, whats giving up a couple of node swaps to the weaker team! you already know you are going to wipe them, might as well let them have a couple glory points.
But Ive seen premades just basically stomp roll, then camp spawn.. what the heck is the fun of this, I guess to end the match quicker and see if you get a premade in the next is the only thing I can think of.
Crockshi* of an excuse, as with any other posts in this lousy thread that makes up a zillion excuses for the beggars groveling for rewards they did not earn. Premades is a non-issue, since a ranking system is already in works. A team with people who make regular premades will get higher ranks, and they will be matched up with people at the same level, most probably another premade. It usually takes maybe a week or two at most until the "ranks" stabilize, but after that, you've got zero excuse about 'premades'.
So, what are you going to blame next?
Then stop being a regular Joe and get better. Problem solved.
If you aren't really interested in PvP, and you're just doing it for the goodies it holds, and you don't feel the rush to get all better, then is it not only fitting that you get to receive it a lot slower than those who enjoy it more, play it more, and practice/invest in it more to get better in it?
There's no changing the fact. It's been seen in countless games before.
If you're gonna raise the middle finger and try to weasle your way out in earning rewards you don't deserve, like how the chickenshi* folk mod2 PvP have been queuing and doing, then that's all fine and dandy. Really. Please feel free to do so.
Your rank will simply slide down to the lowest possible rank-level where HORDES of people with the exact same mentality swim around the red ocean of incompetence. Every game you play, you will be playing with 9 other people who are exactly like you, non-action, camping, leaving games, trying to rig matches, etc etc.. and you'll have ZERO people to latch on to like a parasite to get freebie wins for you.
Good luck trying to get "rewards" in that dump. ROFL
As it is, ultimately the rank system filters the filth from the cream. You try more, you be more sincere, and you'll always find people of your similar rank to enjoy well-matched games, win a few, lose a few, get some nice rewards in the process. Or, you could do PvP with the mindset some of the losers in this thread are implying -- and end up knee-deep in the bottomless pit of abyssal rankers.
Your choice, brothers.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'