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Please remove GF as a pre-requisite requirement for dungeon grouping .
pelgrax
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 486 Arc User
As they still haven't decided to fix the dungeon queueing system ( and still NO response from the devs about this ) and with the obvious reduction in actively playing GF's , can they remove the group requisite for having a GF preset into the dungeon group ?
This would at least increase the overall percentage of starting groups overall as there is usually no reduction of clerics available and therefore we can hopefully at least be able then to play from the start of the dungeons .
This would at least increase the overall percentage of starting groups overall as there is usually no reduction of clerics available and therefore we can hopefully at least be able then to play from the start of the dungeons .
Post edited by pelgrax on
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I would suggest that requirement for GF be replaced by a CW, as in most cases pug groups would be a lot better of with a guaranteed DC and CW, rather then with a DC and GF.
Yeap, 1 CW should be required, not GF.
I'm not so sure about that. Personally I think it should be an alternate melee class like a GWF or GF. Because two GWFs can take that place and work well.
I just think with the current apparent dearth of GF's that they should no longer be a pre requisite for a dungeon group created by the dungeon group system .
With the upcoming PvP patch GF's are going to get some really nice buffs, so you are likely going to see an increase in the number of GF's in the game population. Hopefully this will translate into enough GF's signing up for your Dungeons to make this a moot point. If not, yeah, just remove that requirement. Most of the Dungeons are just not set up to really NEED a GF. Don't get me wrong, a really good GF can make all the difference in the world in a group. But in this game GF's of that level are rarer than Hen's Teeth, and nearly all are already keystone members of established Guilds.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
Thing is that I can think of certain dungeons (e.g. SP) where at lower GS levels as is typical for PUGs not having a CW renders it extremely difficult whereas not having a GF (or even a GWF) is more of an annoyance so long as you have a DC. True a lot of people run FH using a GF but I have been fine kiting mobs on my DC there as well (and my GWF, and my HR.....)
My point wasn't so much about stopping the bottleneck currently caused by requiring a GF when it isn't really needed, as to actually improve the chances of PUGs to complete content, and for that I think a guaranteed DC/CW combo is more effective than a DC/GF combo.
Well you do have a point,
But remember also, even though a high level geared CW makes things look easy, its generally because they know what they're doing. A newbie CW is still adjusting to how things work in this game, and sometimes they're not quite up to snuff yet.
So they may not have quite the grasp on things yet. But your basic point is understood, about usefulness given the way tactically the dungeons ACTUALLY work rather than the way they really would in a standard party.
I do agree with others though, having a good GF does make things more smooth. Still... finding one can be a major task.
And they're right, people are now bypassing the queing system entirely, And it may be because of the requirements. I joined three different dungeons, all three were people waiting on tanks.
In any case within pugs I would still be much happier with the Guardian Fighter than a Control Wizard. At least most GF's won't die and will at least be able to somewhat fill their role.
In any case the fact that guarding fighters are so underappreciated needs to be fixed. Changing the queue to fit this unjust lack of appreciation is the wrong angle to take. The need for guarding fighters needs to be increased rather than adjusting the queue due to the misconception of some of the player base.
To me the problem with this thread is saying:
"I know I don't need a GF very often" is synonymous with saying "I don't pug using the queue very often" because if you queue pugged you would be rolling with a GF, and then what would you really know about how often you don't need one personally?
I get that there are respectable people telling us we don't need a GF, but those people know that because they don't queue pug. Based on my experience in other MMORPG it isn't classes in that case... You can give out advice based on your prebuilt guildee, selecting strangers for gear score, or stacking multiple CW or whatever system for how you build a group, but then you realize that 5 random strangers from a queue operate a heck of a lot less cohesively, and what works perfectly fine for you when you don't use a queue falls to HAMSTER when those randomly assembled queue puggers get thrown together.
Anyway. I am suspcious.
That said, I offer that t1 should require a GF, and t2 should not. Anyone really interested in having a GF at tier 2 can just duo-queue with one. This is based on t1 == newbs. t2 == still newbie starting to get a clue.
i agree pug queues should look for 2xcw always so ppl can finish epics with them or 1xcw+1xgf deves realy missed something when they did make only gf and dc forced for queue team when u in real need 2x cw to finish anything
It's mostly a minor DPS buff that will still get us nowhere near other classes, instead of giving us some serious defensive tools (GWF on tab have a skill that makes them immune to cc, get extra THP, do more damage and resist more damage. GF tab skill marks a single enemy and gives him a minor debuff.)
GF doesn't need more DPS, we need a serious team-defending ability that makes us worth having in a party (i.e. in *some other game* a class very similar to GF had the perk to protect his party from ranged or AoE damage/cc if he had his shield up and the party stood behind him).
Seriously people who think Guardian Fighters are not that viable just haven't considered how to make them viable other than trying to make them into a DPS class rather than the meat shield.
There are plenty of team-based powers such as Knight's Valor and acts as crowd control but these powers do not add to damage. This alone to be too big of an issue except that people refuse to do anything besides DPS races.
A skill that lets GFs take the consequences of their party's stupidity is not the best thing to bring to random groups.
no kidding. randoms tend to not know how to dodge the 1-shots
Really?
Knight's valor is the best way to die in a pug. For 10 seconds you will be completely unable to control damage, take potentially a single 50k hit from an AoE, and die.
It's actually a terrible skill if people in your party aren't expert players.
BTW i don't know the "plenty" of team-based powers, the only other power that affects your team is Into the fray, and it gives negligible temporary hit points and a minor offensive buff. Most other powers are actually single-target offensive powers we don't really need.
If there was more than 1 such power i'd be really happy (and pretty much everyone else as well). As it is, an extra CW is still way better than a GF
Having a GF kite in FH or SP, is in general the fastest way to complete those bosses, leaving the DC to just concentrate on debuffing, knocking off mobs, killing archers and healing, the boss will die faster this way, doesnt mean the DC cant kite those, Ive done it, just saying on my DC I think GF is preferred. The only content where GF is a major liablity is in TOS last boss, kind of a pita environment for the GF , where just stacking massive amounts of CWs works best..
Hey Ive been kicked before GG DD runs on my DC, because I wasnt another dps class.. go figure, people can be strange, I cant argue with them , showing that a added DC should AT least be on par with bringing another DPS class if Im going full buff mode, there is no real loss of dps. But people are always going to have a opinion.
Although, someone came up with what they call an "Iron Maiden" build. Something about lots of HP, lots of damage absorption and lots of reflect to help keep aggro up. I looked it over and it seems interesting.
Ha ha, this is true! Especially when lots of aoe is going down!
Also what the community moderator said earlier is spot on. A lot of people don't like GF because a lot of GF don't have a clue how to tank properly.
GF isn't a DPS class. it can be made to be, kind of, but if players actually just specced for damage taking they would actually see a huge difference in their usefulness. Also might enjoy some things more than the boring DPS race that means nothing except you can do a lot of aoe damage that requires no skill.
Cryptic should seriously try and do something to make the GF more needed in dungeon groups. Its fundamentally broken when people just want to take CW's everywhere.
SoS/sd is the only way to make Knight's Valor work though in a pug. 10 seconds of complete dmg invulnerability and 10 seconds of taking 50% of the entire parties dmg works out fine. If you use KV in a queue pug on any other build though yeah, it's instant suicide.
in a queue pug? sure, having a gf (or dc) kite is nice. in any other group no way, aoe dps zerg fest every boss, every time.
Well aware of everything you stated and I promise you I'm not wrong.
Nor does any Conqueror hold aggro better than me. Hell, most fail to hold aggro at all and even the good ones only hold it on par with me.
As for Knight's Valor in pugs...stop building damage before defense and I promise you it's entirely viable. I have only had trouble once but that was due to the worse cleric I have ever played with. I'll put it this way: I did twice the healing the Cleric did at the end of the dungeon.
And making yourself survivable doesn't sacrifice that much damage. Try stepping away from the completely false assumption Conqueror is the best thing since buttered bread and build the Guardian Fighter to actually fulfill its role and you might just be surprised.
Taking this into account, I wouldn't change the system, because most undergeared players use the dungeon queue system.