KV is all about timing. The max any attack will drop your gaurd is 18%. But you get AP based on the total damage of the attack. So if you use the shield only for those hits (and then threatening rush to build back gaurd) you end up gaining AP while losing no HP while generating aggro while defending the party. shield should go up only under these condidtions. First CC if not in menace. Second big hits. Otherwise your inherent miti will handle most of it. And ambi? I am only a mediocre GF. But if you want I can set you with a aggro match against a good conq. Change your whole world view.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
The conquerors that play with me switch their spec.
Putting two GF's into the same group causes wacky things with threat btw. The best way to compare is to ask the other players how they felt and let them compare. In any case I do not have the time. No joke I am posting on the forums right now while figuring out why my computer will not boot.
im a Lvl 60 GF, it's my first Char. We ran all normal Dungeons with a group of three, making the GF invaluable and the game a lot of fun. Now that we reached Epic Dungeons, I slowly start to see how this game works in T2 Dungeons and what people are talking about. I had quiet some successful T2 runs right now, but I see the point that GF can be replaced by other classes - though those people really need to know what to do.
I skilled the protector feat tree and am very happy with it. Still, with the enchanced mark passive, I never lose aggro and I need 1 Encounter or two at wills to get aggro of any mob that is targeting my ally.
What *really* could use a change is the way AoE works for GFs. I think one of the reasons why a CW is "better" is, that he can control ALL the mobs. A GF can at max geet the aggro of 5 mobs, since ALL AoE spells can only hit a maximum of 5 mobs. In epic dungeons they stack up so much, it is hard to get aggro of the ones targeting your allies because you ll only hit the ones already behind you and standing in your way.
If it would do too much damage, then at least let it build up threat on every target in range without the damage. The one thing a GF has going for him is the enhanced threat build. Let this be his strength then.
The conquerors that play with me switch their spec.
Putting two GF's into the same group causes wacky things with threat btw. The best way to compare is to ask the other players how they felt and let them compare. In any case I do not have the time. No joke I am posting on the forums right now while figuring out why my computer will not boot.
Pc issues do suck. But it is easy to test when your machine is feeling better. Go to somewhere lame like PK and see who can hold the most mobs. I guess me and mine are strange fellows. We will run things off-DD just to test them out and reap combat logs. I ran tactician to the hilt to try and make it work. When I submitted and paid for a conq spec everything got easier. Like I was joggin with a backpack full of sand and suddenly took it off....
Well aware of everything you stated and I promise you I'm not wrong.
Nor does any Conqueror hold aggro better than me. Hell, most fail to hold aggro at all and even the good ones only hold it on par with me.
As for Knight's Valor in pugs...stop building damage before defense and I promise you it's entirely viable. I have only had trouble once but that was due to the worse cleric I have ever played with. I'll put it this way: I did twice the healing the Cleric did at the end of the dungeon.
And making yourself survivable doesn't sacrifice that much damage. Try stepping away from the completely false assumption Conqueror is the best thing since buttered bread and build the Guardian Fighter to actually fulfill its role and you might just be surprised.
Protector build with 4.5k defense and 2k deflect (plus some more from stone), and minimal power/crit/ap here. I used to die A LOT from KV. Then I switched to Swordsmaster path to get the 5s invulnerability feat plus soulforged enchantment and I managed to die a bit less with KV, but with a properly incompetent party there's no defense against all the damage they can take. I just don't use it anymore (because if I die the pug usually wipes in 10 seconds).
I'd rather have the skill reworked as "increase damage reduction by a flat 30% on your team and decrease your own by 15%", that way I can at least control the damage I take and avoid getting killed (or at least if I die, it's mostly my fault).
The most irritating fact there is that to *tank better* i had to switch to the *offensive path*. Because GWF has simply better survival skills.
The reason why people (including myself) chose a Conq spec is because end-game parties run DPS setups all the way due to the game mechanics. When the game was still young people treated GFs as real tanks, because they knew no better from other MMOs and slowly but steadily had more and more trouble finding groups. (Hybrid) DPS builds like those from rokuthy, dkcandy or Envy emerged, revitalized the class and for a long time they were (and to some degree still are) the only viable end-game builds.
With module 2 and bugged Student, bugged Deep Gash and the emergence of GWFs, all GFs were marginalized and parked next to praying mules. Nowadays I rarely see GFs advertising in GG and/or DDs. I tried with both my Conq and Defensive spec every now and then but have no luck. The only way I can take part in a dungeon run is a) a group is unable to find a GWF/CW and settles for a GF instead or b) use the queue. So in a way, the queue is the only chance for GFs to do anything and restating what I said above: I have much more fun within queued PUGs with my defensive spec. Runs simply have a higher success rate or are generally smoother even though the Conq tops damage charts 95% of the time.
I've specced conq on mine, though that's mostly because solo content is tedious without hilarious powerstacking to speed things up.
I rarely come anywhere near the top of damage tables in dungeons, though, because I usually try to play more supportively (and switch gear to be more tanky). I can be much more useful to the party by spamming ITF and making sure all the monsters are facing toward me (and away from everyone else, so combat advantage woo) and are suitably debuffed by marks + terror enchant than I could by going MAD DEEPS YO, so I don't really try.
Also, in fairness, I'm not that good. I don't seem to have too much trouble holding aggro, but this is probably because the CWs and GWFs have killed everything before they even come close to grabbing aggro. Dead monsters have no threat table. :P
And now I've finally got a KC set, the buffbot role is even more favoured.
Cosider, just for a moment, sjat would happen if you received the KC buff like the rest of the party. +60% power on a conq build.....
Won't happen, because that would be Stalwart Bulwark reloaded and they nerfed that set for a reason. Man, these were the days right? Btw.: Do KC stack? Can two Conqs buff each other plus the party two times? 2GF/GWF/CW/DC anyone? Imagine the GWFs bleed north of 24k power (probably doesn't work but one can dream)
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
they used to stack, and GFs ran around with 60k power. back when 5 GF parties were a thing.
they used to stack, and GFs ran around with 60k power. back when 5 GF parties were a thing.
they don't anymore.
Yeah thought so. But hey, maybe GFs are just one buggy feat away from being OP again, who knows.
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
Make Conqueror Capstone feat NOT increase Gearscore and I promise you, there will be a lot more non-Conqueror GFs.
Face it, with the public's perception on "GS IS EVERYTHING", this is the major factor driving people to go Conqueror.
Also, consider that if you were to remove the requirement for GFs, this would allow the queue system to place up to 2 GFs in a group. How many rage quitters and complaint threads do you think you'd see on the forum from people saying "people in the party saw 2 GFs, said gg, and quit"
In any case the fact that guarding fighters are so underappreciated needs to be fixed. Changing the queue to fit this unjust lack of appreciation is the wrong angle to take. The need for guarding fighters needs to be increased rather than adjusting the queue due to the misconception of some of the player base.
Right now they are a huge bottleneck to queues. It's about as bad as queuing up for GG on the Delzoun side 3 seconds late.
I wouldn't call it "unjust" appreciation. There are simply other classes that contribute significantly more to a group than a GF.
Comments
Putting two GF's into the same group causes wacky things with threat btw. The best way to compare is to ask the other players how they felt and let them compare. In any case I do not have the time. No joke I am posting on the forums right now while figuring out why my computer will not boot.
(I really don't want it to I am just trying to calculate if they are sending me damage if they are out.)
im a Lvl 60 GF, it's my first Char. We ran all normal Dungeons with a group of three, making the GF invaluable and the game a lot of fun. Now that we reached Epic Dungeons, I slowly start to see how this game works in T2 Dungeons and what people are talking about. I had quiet some successful T2 runs right now, but I see the point that GF can be replaced by other classes - though those people really need to know what to do.
I skilled the protector feat tree and am very happy with it. Still, with the enchanced mark passive, I never lose aggro and I need 1 Encounter or two at wills to get aggro of any mob that is targeting my ally.
What *really* could use a change is the way AoE works for GFs. I think one of the reasons why a CW is "better" is, that he can control ALL the mobs. A GF can at max geet the aggro of 5 mobs, since ALL AoE spells can only hit a maximum of 5 mobs. In epic dungeons they stack up so much, it is hard to get aggro of the ones targeting your allies because you ll only hit the ones already behind you and standing in your way.
If it would do too much damage, then at least let it build up threat on every target in range without the damage. The one thing a GF has going for him is the enhanced threat build. Let this be his strength then.
Pc issues do suck. But it is easy to test when your machine is feeling better. Go to somewhere lame like PK and see who can hold the most mobs. I guess me and mine are strange fellows. We will run things off-DD just to test them out and reap combat logs. I ran tactician to the hilt to try and make it work. When I submitted and paid for a conq spec everything got easier. Like I was joggin with a backpack full of sand and suddenly took it off....
Protector build with 4.5k defense and 2k deflect (plus some more from stone), and minimal power/crit/ap here. I used to die A LOT from KV. Then I switched to Swordsmaster path to get the 5s invulnerability feat plus soulforged enchantment and I managed to die a bit less with KV, but with a properly incompetent party there's no defense against all the damage they can take. I just don't use it anymore (because if I die the pug usually wipes in 10 seconds).
I'd rather have the skill reworked as "increase damage reduction by a flat 30% on your team and decrease your own by 15%", that way I can at least control the damage I take and avoid getting killed (or at least if I die, it's mostly my fault).
The most irritating fact there is that to *tank better* i had to switch to the *offensive path*. Because GWF has simply better survival skills.
With module 2 and bugged Student, bugged Deep Gash and the emergence of GWFs, all GFs were marginalized and parked next to praying mules. Nowadays I rarely see GFs advertising in GG and/or DDs. I tried with both my Conq and Defensive spec every now and then but have no luck. The only way I can take part in a dungeon run is a) a group is unable to find a GWF/CW and settles for a GF instead or b) use the queue. So in a way, the queue is the only chance for GFs to do anything and restating what I said above: I have much more fun within queued PUGs with my defensive spec. Runs simply have a higher success rate or are generally smoother even though the Conq tops damage charts 95% of the time.
I rarely come anywhere near the top of damage tables in dungeons, though, because I usually try to play more supportively (and switch gear to be more tanky). I can be much more useful to the party by spamming ITF and making sure all the monsters are facing toward me (and away from everyone else, so combat advantage woo) and are suitably debuffed by marks + terror enchant than I could by going MAD DEEPS YO, so I don't really try.
Also, in fairness, I'm not that good. I don't seem to have too much trouble holding aggro, but this is probably because the CWs and GWFs have killed everything before they even come close to grabbing aggro. Dead monsters have no threat table. :P
And now I've finally got a KC set, the buffbot role is even more favoured.
Won't happen, because that would be Stalwart Bulwark reloaded and they nerfed that set for a reason. Man, these were the days right? Btw.: Do KC stack? Can two Conqs buff each other plus the party two times? 2GF/GWF/CW/DC anyone? Imagine the GWFs bleed north of 24k power
they don't anymore.
Yeah thought so. But hey, maybe GFs are just one buggy feat away from being OP again, who knows.
Face it, with the public's perception on "GS IS EVERYTHING", this is the major factor driving people to go Conqueror.
Also, consider that if you were to remove the requirement for GFs, this would allow the queue system to place up to 2 GFs in a group. How many rage quitters and complaint threads do you think you'd see on the forum from people saying "people in the party saw 2 GFs, said gg, and quit"
Right now they are a huge bottleneck to queues. It's about as bad as queuing up for GG on the Delzoun side 3 seconds late.
I wouldn't call it "unjust" appreciation. There are simply other classes that contribute significantly more to a group than a GF.