GF Issue List ~ Hopefully to viewed by someone that cares?

ripyourlipsoff · February 2014

Lets be civil, write what you feel would help the GF be a better class overall.

I will start with Animations are far to long, for a class that is supposed to Tank and face Monsters face to face he shouldn't take 2-4 secs for an ability to activate.

The guard is very poor it need to block more then it currently does.

While using the Guard to block , one cannot access encounters or dailies without lowering your guard? Intended?

I am sure hopeful others will post a better analysis of potential fixes.

masterjewstar · February 2014

Curious which animations you feel are too slow and if you happened to feat your guard and use the feature for more?

and you cant block while using an encounter because you cant say: use flourish and still have your shield up it makes no sense because its behind you.

or enforced threat because your shield is slapping your sword.

or anvil of doom because your sword is being grasped by two hands.

or frontline surge because you slap with the shield.

i can agree that GF animations could be faster but in Plate everything is slower.

are you hiding behind your shield even against weak attacks? thats why it breaks ever try to block a kanabo and 10 shurikens at the same time nope because the kanabo will break your arm lower your guard and then the ten shurikens will hit you.

I do care its just that they dont need to be ultra powerful thats not the point of a tank.

lutz086 · February 2014

tab should be a permanent lock than can be toggled on/off ( not meant for pvp of course altough it would be sick )

kolbe11 · February 2014

masterjewstar wrote: »

Curious which animations you feel are too slow and if you happened to feat your guard and use the feature for more?

and you cant block while using an encounter because you cant say use flourish and still have your shield up it makes no sense.

- TAB Threat
- Shield & Shield Slam
- Lunging Strike

^Those 3 top my list of frustrating animations as they have a LONG animation time. When I say long, I am obviously comparing them to other classes.

If you have your shield up for example, it takes a long time to drop it in order to use Threatening Rush or Lunging Strike and it is literally impossible to hold your shield up and do any encounters (as OP suggests).

ripyourlipsoff · February 2014

Any of them Masterjewstar, you cannot use any Encounters with your guard up none. You also cannot use a Daily with your guard up with such a long animation lock on Villains Menace or Fighters Recovery be nice if you could hit those with the shield up!

masterjewstar · February 2014

sorry bout that rip i understand what you are doing you're trying to improve the fate of the class; I understand that now. Some people on the forums HAMSTER me off and it reflects my posts.

maybe a little less time between when block is up then down to encounter daily then the block can go up just as fast like that you mean? or change the entire animation of it?

Because mechanically and realistically you cant really do a heavy attack while blocking with a heavy shield and all heavy attacks are made to be telegraphed either by sight or sound in game.

I believe they have already planned changes to the gf too so you know at least so I read. So might as well see after the next patch comes in and might as well also continue to come up with an idea that might be innovative. I hope you guys come up with something unique Ill post if i think of anything.

astronax · February 2014

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

I will start with Animations are far to long, for a class that is supposed to Tank and face Monsters face to face he shouldn't take 2-4 secs for an ability to activate.

I suppose all classes have some abilities with long cast times. And those are usually caused by in-game actual animations. (or it's indeed balance-wise choise? not sure, but really doubt it) So it would look kinda real. Like GWF doing IBS - HUGE, MEAN LOOKING MODAF**KING OVERHEAD SLASH, which on top hits like a truck. Really intimidating. CWs shard takes years to cast. One of the longest animation encounters in game i guess. List goes on and on.
Can't really discuss GF balance, though (it's somewhat fair, imo, but some bonus mobility/quality of life/overall utility wouldn't hurt them, but its just a subjective opinion, again)

ranncore · February 2014

Gf tab ability is the most glaring weakness in my opinion. Making it last longer just makes it a subpar ability that lasts longer. Quick comparison:

Gwf: up to FIFTY percent more dr, temp hp, increased atk speed
Cw : an EXTRA encounter power with additional abilities
Tr : INVISIBILITY and increased damage on all attacks
Dc : alternative at wills and increased and bonus powers on ALL encounter powers
Hr : completely changes functions of at wills and encounters giving AWESOME utility for many situations

Gf : plus 8 percent damage and some threat (that no gf actually needs, pulling aggro in pve can be done fine with mark the way it is now ie. threat rush and enforced threat)

The primary class feature of Guardian Fighters is actually more powerful for gwf because of the plus fifteen percent dmg feat gwf have access to.

This strikes me as the weakest and least inspired class feature in the game.

The guard amount and regeneration seem fine to me, actually. Villain's Menace would be much handier if it could activate faster, but I'm not sure it should. However the activation time on Tide of Iron and Shield Bash render them pretty much useless altogether.

ripyourlipsoff · February 2014

Yea our tab ability is pretty lame in comparison.

overthetopsigh · February 2014

Speaking of PVP only, I think GF's block meter need a serious look. DoT's do massive damage to a GF's block meter and once they're down GF's become sitting ducks. They're essentially GWF's without unstoppable. I mean, look at how many PVP GF's there are compared to other classes.

ripyourlipsoff · February 2014

I try and block attack from my HR or CW whiles they pew pew, but yea, 1 -2 attacks and my Guard is gone! Them IM just choked in the air, thrown to the ground, and completely cced to death!

dreamhuntressx · February 2014

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

I try and block attack from my HR or CW whiles they pew pew, but yea, 1 -2 attacks and my Guard is gone! Them IM just choked in the air, thrown to the ground, and completely cced to death!

Which raises a question: Why in the Nine Hells the Guard meter needs to be shown to other ppl? Does the Stealth meter appear? Does the Divinity meter appear? Does Unstoppable meter appear? No. This put the GF in a high disavantage, since everyone can see when his guard is about to break and then run toward him as faster as a TR in stealth can to gank the poor GF.

pers3phone · February 2014

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

I try and block attack from my HR or CW whiles they pew pew, but yea, 1 -2 attacks and my Guard is gone! Them IM just choked in the air, thrown to the ground, and completely cced to death!

Let's not exaggerate here. I cannot break the guard of a similarly geared PvP GF that easy (if at all). Yeah I will freeze him (not always gonna work, cause, you know, some GFs will catch with me and put me in a world of hurtful prones), then choke him, then shard him, and guess what? The GF STILL has guard left when he's up from the prones

rip my man, I told you when we met in PvP:

Open an honest topic in the Barracks:

"New at 60 GF, looking for advice on PvP build and PvP gear"

I'm very sure many people will try to help you. Hell, if I knew more about GF, I would try to help you more myself.

You HAVE to understand that GEARED people, ahead of you MONTHS in farming, will almost always destroy you, if they have half a brain. It's the same situation when a R10 BiS GWF meets my R9 CW - I get utterly obliterated. And it's OK - that guy is better geared and probably with more PvP experience.

Can the GF class be improved? Yup - and the GF already got LOTS of buffs in Preview.

But until then, your best bet is to ask for help in Barracks. Trust me, you gonna end up better than complaining about classes that you should own in PvP at same gear levels, classes that are just as underpowered as yours $:\$

ripyourlipsoff · February 2014

My spec is fine, I need gear yes! still I fear the end result as other GFs with 19k GS has said GF are HAMSTER still with BOS in comparison to other classes.

My issue will be trying to grind the gear hopefully finding positions with others as to do so.

pers3phone · February 2014

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

My spec is fine, I need gear yes! still I fear the end result as other GFs with 19k GS has said GF are HAMSTER still with BOS in comparison to other classes.

My issue will be trying to grind the gear hopefully finding positions with others as to do so.

There's a "supremacy" of CWs and GWFs in PvE because of better AoE, DPS, CC. However, I would do (and did) runs with GFs any day - if they're good players.

There's also a supremacy of GWF in PvP. A very good rainbow team can still win against troll GWF comp.

The GWF superiority does not mean GFs are bad. I played with and against some AMAZING GFs. And I mean amazing. I would give names, but I don't want to seem disrespectful to people I might forget to mention. But GFs in PvP can do a lot of things, including stalling and annoying to death very good TRs or GWFs.

I will give you 2 links to very good GF Youtube channels. Just so you can see how good the class is in the hands of a geared&skilled player.

King Calous:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCi3cWkMakKHvfZqiglPhG8A

Hzarn (his GF videos are dated I'd say, he now plays a HR, still worth taking a good look)
https://www.youtube.com/user/Synozeer

ripyourlipsoff · February 2014

I've searched every GF video on youtube and googled everything I can on GFs, I've also read other forums on their styles and tactics, and this forums... I haven't been a **** doing nothing, when I play a game and a class I learn its every intricate detail!

charononus · February 2014

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

I've searched every GF video on youtube and googled everything I can on GFs, I've also read other forums on their styles and tactics, and this forums... I haven't been a **** doing nothing, when I play a game and a class I learn its every intricate detail!

What you seem to fail to realize though with all your complaints about GF guard, is that guard is the equivalent of a dodge on other classes. If you get more guard I want the equivalent more dodges and sprint. You are not suppossed to guard every attack, that's playing wrong.

ripyourlipsoff · February 2014

ALL my complaints about guard? I made one statement that the guard was weak, I would rather our animations not take 4 seconds, and stop us from being animation locked all the time, also a small dps increase OR some AOE feat we could talent.

charononus wrote: »

What you seem to fail to realize though with all your complaints about GF guard, is that guard is the equivalent of a dodge on other classes. If you get more guard I want the equivalent more dodges and sprint. You are not suppossed to guard every attack, that's playing wrong.

pers3phone · February 2014

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

I've searched every GF video on youtube and googled everything I can on GFs, I've also read other forums on their styles and tactics, and this forums... I haven't been a **** doing nothing, when I play a game and a class I learn its every intricate detail!

Well, those videos contradict your conceptions about GF usefulness. Also you can see how durable GF guard really is.

And we don't really know about the future balance changes in Neverwinter - but with one exception:

GFs will be buffed. A lot.

ripyourlipsoff · February 2014

The videos all predate the last patch when apparently GFs were nerfed and GWF were risen to Opness. I don't want to be OP, I want to be as good as the other classes or specializig in 1!

pers3phone · February 2014

ripyourlipsoff wrote: »

The videos all predate the last patch when apparently GFs were nerfed and GWF were risen to Opness. I don't want to be OP, I want to be as good as the other classes or specializig in 1!

Not true again; King Calous' videos are as recent as they get.

overthetopsigh · February 2014

To all those against some kind of GF block buff, you all need to put on a plague fire or bilethorn and then fight a GF. If we have a DoT we can kiss our guard goodbye, it's COMPLETELY useless. The moment your block goes up and a DoT ticks it's gone, they do as much damage to the block meter as an IBS or Ice Knife. So we either have 2 choices, we either block and lose our guard meter entirely which means we have a period in which we'll have no guard meter. Or just take the hit.

Imagine being rooted by a HR and having your dodges useless, because we can't outrun anyone and we have NO defenses.

I just want a simple fix where you cannot block DoT's, they do very little damage while eating a lot of our guard meter. I just want to be able to block the big attacks like how every other class can dodge/unstoppable through them.

The GF is getting a lot of PVE fixes, but I don't see many PVP buffs. I mean, we can generate a lot of threat now!

-- Lunging Strike: Now deals 1/3rd of its damage in a cone behind the primary target. Threat will be generated on these targets as if they were struck for the full amount.
(I don't think this is that big a damage increase)

-- Iron Warrior: While under the effect of Iron Warrior, players will now generate 150% more threat.
(Yay more threat)

-- Bull Charge: Lunge distance has been increased from 18’ to 28’.
(This is an actual buff, but not that big. This attack is already easy to avoid the bigger distance just gives players more time to react)

-- Frontline Surge: Cooldown has been reduced from 20 to 19 seconds. Target cap has been increased from 3 to 5. Damage has been reduced by 25%. Prone duration has been reduced against players. The ground splat has been increased to better represent effect area.
(25% reduced damage! And reduced duration of prone this doesn't seem like a buff)

-- Feat Reinforced Surge: Now increases damage by 1/2/3/4/5%. Additional prone duration has been reduced to .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 seconds.
(If we feat this, and add the previous change, we end up with 20% reduced damage and more then half the reduction in prone time, this is not a buff).

Am I missing something? Where is all this buff GF's are getting?

charononus · February 2014

overthetopsigh wrote: »

To all those against some kind of GF block buff, you all need to put on a plague fire or bilethorn and then fight a GF. If we have a DoT we can kiss our guard goodbye, it's COMPLETELY useless. The moment your block goes up and a DoT ticks it's gone, they do as much damage to the block meter as an IBS or Ice Knife. So we either have 2 choices, we either block and lose our guard meter entirely which means we have a period in which we'll have no guard meter. Or just take the hit.

Let me just point out how dodges work, you dodge the hit, or you eat it. You have 3 dodges. When you use them all you have no choice but to eat the hits till it regenerates. Is this sounding familar? As far as getting away, yeah the teleports move you farther away but also root you for a split second which means as far as travel time just running is usually faster. Are you getting the idea? Your block is balanced right now compared to other classes. What you need is a buff to aoe dps so that you are useful in pve.

beckylunatic · February 2014

But a DoT doesn't eat your dodges, which was the point there.

charononus · February 2014

beckylunatic wrote: »

But a DoT doesn't eat your dodges, which was the point there.

Don't hold down shift and it won't eat guard either, resource management.

overthetopsigh · February 2014

charononus wrote: »

Don't hold down shift and it won't eat guard either, resource management.

While you have a DOT you can't use your shield becuase it drains it to zero. That is the point! I don't think you understand this part. If you've played a GF and fought someone with bilethorn, plague fire or even deep gash you'd understand this. Go play, come back and we can discuss.

ranncore · February 2014

charononus wrote: »

Let me just point out how dodges work, you dodge the hit, or you eat it. You have 3 dodges. When you use them all you have no choice but to eat the hits till it regenerates. Is this sounding familar? As far as getting away, yeah the teleports move you farther away but also root you for a split second which means as far as travel time just running is usually faster. Are you getting the idea? Your block is balanced right now compared to other classes. What you need is a buff to aoe dps so that you are useful in pve.

Not even close. A dodge renders you immune to ALL damage, whether it is 1 attack or 10, until the dodge animation is finished (and in fact allows a small grace period after). In addition it moves you out of the area of affect, putting you out of harms way. A shield blocks so many hits, then it's dead, and you have no means of mobility to evade other incoming attacks.

In a game where avoiding red splats is the primary method of survival, Dodge tanks will always be the superior alternative for bosses over Shield tanks.

swadex · February 2014

Let me just point out how dodges work, you dodge the hit, or you eat it. You have 3 dodges. When you use them all you have no choice but to eat the hits till it regenerates. Is this sounding familar? As far as getting away, yeah the teleports move you farther away but also root you for a split second which means as far as travel time just running is usually faster. Are you getting the idea? Your block is balanced right now compared to other classes. What you need is a buff to aoe dps so that you are useful in pve.[/I]

Further More I didn't realize your dodges where directional based, only dodging attacks from one direction, or that you could be CC'd during your dodge. Or that everyone else could see your stamina bar to know when your dodge was available used up... yup guess dodge is the same as block...

sirindra · February 2014

overthetopsigh wrote: »

To all those against some kind of GF block buff, you all need to put on a plague fire or bilethorn and then fight a GF. If we have a DoT we can kiss our guard goodbye, it's COMPLETELY useless. The moment your block goes up and a DoT ticks it's gone, they do as much damage to the block meter as an IBS or Ice Knife. So we either have 2 choices, we either block and lose our guard meter entirely which means we have a period in which we'll have no guard meter. Or just take the hit.

In high end premades, you don't see that many GFs around. Now why is this? Well let's analyze.

Against 2+ people, I'll never leave a GF alone. I would leave a TR, a DC, a GWF, but never a GF, because once that guard is broken they are useless and will die. Good teams know this and if you have a GF holding a point, they will try to clear that point before the other ones for the quick 2v1. That rates the GF lower in tankiness than 3 classes, and even a number of HRs can prove to be tankier and die less in a match and not because the GF is bad. Even in a 2v2, if I see a GF pair with anything else (aside from a CW and maybe an HR if they are squishy), I will immediately call for it to be targeted first, because I know once that guard meter is down, the guy is toast.

This has been a true observation since before any modules came out even, the difference before being no HR option and no GWF burst damage like the GF had and continues to have.

Notice that overthetopsigh isn't asking for a damage buff or a control buff, just a straight survivability buff. We can compare GFs to GWFs all day, but honestly, it's not even that. As mentioned before, TRs and DCs are ridiculously tankier as well compared to the GF. Even good HRs can be so evasive you're better off killing the GF first. Stealth is better, Dodging is better, Unstoppable is better. So might as well make GF block better to match everyone else's.

mconosrep · March 2014

For PvE the GF definitely needs a damage boost (perhaps just to some AOE abilities so it doesn't affect PvP too much).

For PvP, from reading the thread I thought the following suggestions might be useful:

1. Make the guard bar invisible to opponents. As others have said, enemy players can't see the 'Unstoppable', 'Stealth' or 'Divinity' bar.

2. (This might need careful consideration). Let DoTs go through the guard bar and not affect it in any way. However, if there is an encounter or daily that is blocked then so are any subsequent DoTs from that.

kweassa · March 2014

Conceptually, with that great big shield and all, the GF is clearly a defensive class rather than offensive.

So then, why not build the TAB class feature around that concept?

* TAB -- renamed to "Challenge", a vastly upgraded Taunt that can be stacked on top of similar effects
* taunts the target to build big threat (in PvE)
* debuffs the target's damage by a woppin' 50% if the target attacks someone else than the GF that challenged it
* all damage done to the challenging GF, by the challenged target, deals 20% extra damage
* however, all damage done to the challenging GF, by the challenged target, drains 50% less guardmeter damage
* lasts 15 seconds, cooldown 40 secs
* Only one challenge from one GF can be applied to a target at any time

...I can see the GF suddenly becoming a super important class in PvE as well as PvP

GF Issue List ~ Hopefully to viewed by someone that cares?

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