The existence is in fact the only true indicator of intent, and more so the outcome of that intent. Shocking Execution is not a mistake because you say so, and your wishful thinking is nothing more than an opinion. The only fact we have is that this point has been made again, and again, and again, in the past, the power has been reworked and it has remained unchanged for a very long time. It is certain that the devs have heard of these points, and yet the power remains as is. That is the only data we have and it points to the "working as intended" conclusion, simply because a very long time has passed unchanged. Anything else is you second-guessing the devs, that they proved recently they know how to play their game better than people think. As I said, you can submit a bug report as well.
Balancing takes time.
Having been a "developer" of IT-based projects myself, the actual time taken to fix stuff is in no way an indicator whether the developers are satisfied with it or not. Most usually projects/fixes are prioritized, and therefore, at moments there can be such a small thing, something like even a visual clipping bug, that could persist forever. Obviously that does not meen the developers approve of such a bug, does it?
SE is not super heavy hitting,it is weaker than many encounter powers.
It's percentage based.
The higher the HP, the bigger the HP pool left at under 40%. When something kills you outright, that is not on set numbers, that means the level could increase to 80, 100, our HPs to 50k, 100k levels, and still, you would be dead. With a (theoretically) 100k HP pool, Shox would hit for 40k damage to instantly kill you. If our HP increases to 200k, it will hit for 80k. If we pass over the "Epic" level and enter the realm of demi-gods under Ao, that still wouldn't matter. It would kill gods, if gods have a concept of HP.
Percentage-based damage is typically some of the most powerful attacks possible in a game like this.
It is the weakest of the "viable" TR dailies, and it has a conditional use against specific, high health opponents in a specific time window (low-health). When it got changed most TRs took it of their list powers and it was generally considered trash for a while, as the metagame changed and everyone turned tanky it became more viable again. You can search the forum for this and my above point if you wish.
Again, this set term "viability" I find to be most usually very limited, very short-sighted, and often very repressive and narrow -- especially when it comes from "knowledgeable" people in PvP. (**Actually, in many cases the opinions of the pros, ironically, are some of the worst mis-informed. I've got a few stories about it, but that would be digressing...) It would probably deserve a separate thread for a discussion, hence, I will not dwell into it any deeper.
I'll just say that getting rid of the "unavoidable" trait, as a matter of fact, is totally irrelevant to what you have mentioned in its defense. The damage would be the same. The results would be the same. The only difference would be you'll need to actually think about how to land it. (**Hence, I would in that case support a change in activation time so it'd be much faster, almost as fast as -- for instance -- Hateful Knives)
This power is not out of the boundaries of the rules of how powers in the implemented in the game. It is not the only undodgeable power in the game even. It is you who does not respect how this power is implemented in the game and try to convince people it is wrong.
Are you even listening to yourself?
How in the world would you even compare it to any other "undodgeable" powers (for instance, any power that would apply Grasping Roots for HRs)?? Are you seriously saying a power that you have no way of stopping or defending against, which would in most cases just obliterate you and instantly land a win to the other guy, under very easily achievable conditions, has no problems at all???
It will not hit you no matter what, me and other people have explained that. It is not impossible to defend against. If people can avoid a Lashing Blade from stealth with ease, then they can interrupt a SE provided they manage their powers right, it's been happening to me all the time. You may prefer it worked like other powers, I prefer diversity, that is a difference of opinions, nothing more to say about it. I've seen a lot of games dying because of enforced mechanics uniformity and simplification and as a long time player, I'm sure you have seen them too.
I've seen more games die of poor balance.
There is no metric of player skill in the game. People can only speculate. I think your definition of skill varies from mine. For me, not accepting how a certain power works and not taking it into consideration/using it as is implemented, is lack of skill. Especially if there is no formal acknowledgement that there is something wrong with it, after people have made queries.
Every power, every trade has everything to do into being outplayed/outmatched. There is no luck in pvp. Coordination/reflexes, decision-making/strategy, build, gear. That about sums it up. You don't have to pray to God the enemy TR doesn't have his daily full. You can safely expect it if you know how fast TRs charge up, and notice how much recovery your enemy has from his cds. It takes lots of experience? Of course, but no luck. There are lots of skills that if they hit you, you are dead, SE isn't the only one. A prone rotation can take you out without the need to be <40% health like SE. A CW from a blind spot can wait out your ITC cd and kill you from 80ft distance from full health. These plays define skill in this game. As I've mentioned again, killing isn't even the winning strategy in the PVP we play. If deathmatch is introduced, all these might be re-examined, who knows.
A noble effort, but ultimately vain, I'm afraid.
The very reason TRs tend to fiercely defend Shox and its unavoidable trait, by itself supports an assumption that in actual combat, in the every-day cases we see, Shox works, and works very well.
I've met some of the more renowned TRs in matches. I've seen them go up against other TRs as well. Sorry, unless in unrealistically rare cases, no, there is no 'defending' against Shox. People know this, which is why they want it to stay this way. I could probably bid my left nut on the bet that you could pit two of the most experienced TRs against each other, and none of them would be able to just exactly estimate when Shox will fire up, and even if they did, they will not be able to "defend" against it successfully. Shox lands. No matter what.
I could easily make up a same theoretical argument about how my WK build can be every bit as "competitive and viable" as a MI build, and be able to exactly estimate when the ITC fires up and ends, and pin-point that timing to land a stun to connect it with a Dazing Strike combo to totally obliterate any stealth/ITC-spamming TR build. Sounds great, doesn't it?
So for the reasons above I don't consider this a DEUS EX MACHINE or an "I win" button.
I play all classes. I have 7 lvl 60 characters, 12.5k gs minimum and rising, some have full r8+ etc (I prefer to spread the love a little instead of max-gearing one toon). I've been on the receiving edge of SE too often, but I've also seen the endless cycles of nerfs and complains and how they changed the game and how they've pigeon-holed the TR into a tanky permastealth build often with no offensive encounters, because of lack of competitive alternatives, and how a DPS class is forced to play tanky in PVP, and how it became redundant in PVE. And I always try to look at the greater picture. And SE doesn't even register in my view in the greater picture, with so many buggy powers/mechanics around.
Squaring off against stalling invisible enemies that slowly wear you down might be unfun and even annoying to some, but you are still facing a super squishy enemy that one prone/cc/lucky hit will give you the opening to kill him, no window to use SE. That is the issue of skill. SF and Bloodcrystal are not TR exclusive, everyone uses them. I can mention prolonged fights against any class - undying GWFs/DCs, node super defenders GFs, super kiting bursters HRs/CWs. And again I will mention you don't have to kill the enemy, merely force him to retreat and accumulate points. Not all matchups are equal but since all both teams can utilize the same classes there is perfect balance. Skill works not only on an personal level but also on a team level. I pug all the time and I've seen pro pvp-ers directing their team very often.
If SE changed, and with the incoming IS nerf, I'd be without any reliable hard hitting powers left except good ol' buggy Whirlwind. That is a sad fact for a DPS class. No idea if I'd continue to use it in my bar, probably only slot it if 2+ GWF/DC where on the other team. It would further reinforce the stealth TR build, and I'd probably end up playing my TR less and less. As a power that is a decent counter to the strongest class out there in pvp, I think it's pretty much needed right now. If you believe people will still use it with the right timing so as to not be avoided, why advocate the change in the first place? Why should the developers spend their resources and workhours on this and not something more pressing?
Cheers, and that's about all from me.
Again, despite the argument, the problem is that none of what you argue has any relevance with the removal of the "unavoidable" trait. In this case your prior argument actually works against you -- if there is no such thing as luck, and everything can be set up to exactly what someone wants, then the removal of the "unavoidable" trait would have absolutely no effect on the TRs that are actually skilled and experienced enough to set it up at the exact timing they want. They'll be able to see through the dodge timing, and still land it, no?
The only people this suggestion would directly effect, is those not as skilled, and therefore relies on total dumb luck where the AP charges up at that lucky moment you need it the most.
However, people still fiercely defend it, why?
Because they don't want it to be dodged. Some foes are slippery. Experienced CWs or HRs can be very difficult to get to. Sometimes, a crucial prone from a fighter-class may disturb the timing you hoped for. There are so many factors, sometimes random, sometimes relying on luck, that can mess things up -- if the unavodiable trait is removed, Shox will be effected by this as well.
But as it is, it is not. Whatever the crappy luck dice rolls, in usual cases, Shox will fire up, ignore the dodge, ignore the evasion or deflection, ignore the unlucky timing, ignore the enemies counter attack attempt, heck, ignore the invincible-mode Bloodbath, ignore all of the factors that can make it go wrong (just as any other power), and simply land it.
That my friend, is the very definition of DEUS EX MACHINA. If the developers were gods, the trait "unavodiable" they gave it is the forceful hand that just alters any reality/factor that may intervene, and force the set-result. And some people, including myself, are calling it bullshi*.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Bloodbath isn't mere "untargetable". Even non=target AoE attacks don't register during Bloodbath. BB is literally invincible during activation.. and yet, still, Shoxecution simply kills me. During BB. What this means, is that the jump up and stab motion of Shoxecution, is simply a show. If the power activates, then it is already registered as a hit even before the hit is visibly confirmed.
LoL, I gotta says this.. Compared to how Hateful Knives need such careful activation, or any otrher dailies for that matter, Shoexcution.. man.. this "unavoidable" trait, is frankly bullshi*.
The exception being if you're killed after you've activated it, then you're just dead
Wow! Thank you Kweassa. You expanded and knew exactly what I would of said in my response to the post.
I think the only thing I could add to this is that I *use* to be able to dodge it. pre-mod1. It was possible to dodge it. I know, I did it often on my CW. That's the level of skill that can be out there to avoid it. Now, I can not. That means something changed and it was rendered undodgable.
I'd also like to point out that bug reports have been filed and we don't get feedback on that. We generally don't see what bugs, at all are repaired in the system by the devs to start with. So saying there is no response is also an assumption. I'll be the first to say, I don't know if it works right or not. From my observations of past to now, there was a change in effect that makes it look like it is not working correctly. I don't want it to lose damage, I don't care if it was faster to activate. I just want my chance to dodge it. If you can dodge an IK, which is also a slow, massively hard hitting kill shot, then it should be possible to dodge SE.
So, having skimmed through the recent posts, the issue boiled down to the impossibility to dodge SE? Good, finally it appears as we're getting somewhere! :-)
This really should be looked at, if you ask me. It would give "squishies" a chance to avoid it while the only class I actually use it on still will have to deal with my "OP" 12-14k crits (gbile). Everything else, especially the damage, should remain as is.
Have you done testing on your claims, namely that the damage has no "cap", so scales with HP? I'm not saying that you're wrong but from my experience (never really paid close attention), it would hit about as hard on a 15%-left-40khp-Sent (Say 14k damage, crit) as on a 15%-left-22khp-Destroyer (14k as well). Thus, SE dmg calculation would follow a formula that would look something like Basedmg*(1/(100-currenthp%])) if opponent's hp pool is < ~50% and also having a maximum at ~10-15%. Damage dealt would go up into quadrillions if there wouldn't be a lower percent cap on the calculations, "lim(x->0) for 1/x = ∞ etc", you know the drill.
So, unless I got you wrong, I don't think that it just drains a fixed amount of HP as you said. Otherwise you should be able to - say - 25%-0% any boss as well, which I don't recon to be possible.
Forgive me if I'm on the wrong track, I just don't heavily rely on SE and don't PVE with my TR. So there sure are people with more well-founded input on SE's damage scaling.
So, having skimmed through the recent posts, the issue boiled down to the impossibility to dodge SE? Good, finally it appears as we're getting somewhere! :-)
This really should be looked at, if you ask me. It would give "squishies" a chance to avoid it while the only class I actually use it on still will have to deal with my "OP" 12-14k crits (gbile). Everything else, especially the damage, should remain as is.
Have you done testing on your claims, namely that the damage has no "cap", so scales with HP? I'm not saying that you're wrong but from my experience (never really paid close attention), it would hit about as hard on a 15%-left-40khp-Sent (Say 14k damage, crit) as on a 15%-left-22khp-Destroyer (14k as well). Thus, SE dmg calculation would follow a formula that would look something like Basedmg*(1/(100-currenthp%])) if opponent's hp pool is < ~50% and also having a maximum at ~10-15%. Damage dealt would go up into quadrillions if there wouldn't be a lower percent cap on the calculations, "lim(x->0) for 1/x = ∞ etc", you know the drill.
So, unless I got you wrong, I don't think that it just drains a fixed amount of HP as you said. Otherwise you should be able to - say - 25%-0% any boss as well, which I don't recon to be possible.
Forgive me if I'm on the wrong track, I just don't heavily rely on SE and don't PVE with my TR. So there sure are people with more well-founded input on SE's damage scaling.
If I've crit with 68k shocking execution on last boss in SP recently with my full pvp spec TR, so only 100% crit severity from the feats( I don't have deadly momentum), Abit over 7k power with buffs from swashbuckling set and rampaging madness, arp capped etc and the boss was at about 10% HP i think (and the boss has milloins of HP), so I think you're right here, and shocking execution doesn't definately need nerf.
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yogokouMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Why do you keep repeating "unavoidable" when people have already given ways to avoid it. Undodgeable isn't unavoidable. You keep arguing theories trying to form a logical argument but then you fail at these details. I wasn't implying grasping roots when I mentioned other undodgeable powers, this is a bug that hopefully will get fixed, there are others. My luck argument isn't even relevant in your example, I was talking balance, as in needlessly changing stuff that has been working for ages. "If it ain't broken don't fix it". No luck does not mean everything can setup exactly the way you want, it means there are good decisions/bad decisions to be made at any moment, you failed = bad decision, try something else next time. TRs can easily keep an estimate of the enemy TR ap bar, all you have to do is understand how his recovery/damage compares to yours... your next theoretical argument would fail anyway since you don't provide any way to draw ITC out of your opponent...just going through your post really fast, it is mostly philosophical/theoretical. If you are so concerned with this, provide some in-game examples/data and send it to the devs. I'll be happy to show you many plays with SE simply failing if you want. I'm only suggesting this because you disregard the opinions of "pros"/"knowledgeable players" as you say, so there is little benefit in discussing anything.
All I see in this thread is your argument about a power you used not working properly, which turned into a nerf discussion when people explained to you you were mistaken in the first place. Yeah I hate to be that guy but that just screams "l2p" having thrown at you. Making a super long casting move also dodgeable just make any sense to me, sorry. As I said, agree to disagree.
Playing a WK, you don't get to use SE much, so I can understand you thinking it is some kind of insta-kill move. But the truth is it will very often fail in teamfights because of cc/interuption. Also, yes, shockingly, execution moves are very common in all games, pvp or not, mmo, mobas, fighting games, and people have no problems with them being in a game, as I've already mentioned, diversity is good. So yeah people will actually defend it, and you don't have to theorize why they will defend it, you are having arguments at your disposal. Execution moves fill a gap and are needed.
To some of the later posts, I don't understand that if you file a report, what kind of feedback do you expect to see other than how it works in-game? There is no assumption regarding SE, simply a fact, how it works in-game. Are you seriously arguing it was changed to not work correctly? In the all class balancing patch? That is completely counter-intuitive, if anything.
Also there is a cap, base damage is only affected by a multiplier of your target's missing hp, regardless of the actual hp number missing.
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
edited February 2014
Welcome to Neverwinter's amazing net code. I can't count the number of times I "dodged" something and yet still got hit.
It becomes even worse when it comes to PvP since the latency of both players becomes an issue.
Why do you keep repeating "unavoidable" when people have already given ways to avoid it. Undodgeable isn't unavoidable. You keep arguing theories trying to form a logical argument but then you fail at these details. I wasn't implying grasping roots when I mentioned other undodgeable powers, this is a bug that hopefully will get fixed, there are others.
Question: "How can you get away from a GWF, when all your escape powers are gone?"
Answer: "Go hug the GWF, maneuver behind him with every attack he tries to make. As long as he isn't holding down CTRL, you'll evade every move."
...hope you get what I am trying to say here.
My luck argument isn't even relevant in your example, I was talking balance, as in needlessly changing stuff that has been working for ages. "If it ain't broken don't fix it". No luck does not mean everything can setup exactly the way you want, it means there are good decisions/bad decisions to be made at any moment, you failed = bad decision, try something else next time. TRs can easily keep an estimate of the enemy TR ap bar, all you have to do is understand how his recovery/damage compares to yours... your next theoretical argument would fail anyway since you don't provide any way to draw ITC out of your opponent...just going through your post really fast, it is mostly philosophical/theoretical. If you are so concerned with this, provide some in-game examples/data and send it to the devs. I'll be happy to show you many plays with SE simply failing if you want. I'm only suggesting this because you disregard the opinions of "pros"/"knowledgeable players" as you say, so there is little benefit in discussing anything.
All I see in this thread is your argument about a power you used not working properly, which turned into a nerf discussion when people explained to you you were mistaken in the first place. Yeah I hate to be that guy but that just screams "l2p" having thrown at you. Making a super long casting move also dodgeable just make any sense to me, sorry. As I said, agree to disagree.
You're addicted to it as much as any other guy.
Anybody in their right mind would very easily understand why a power that;
(1) kills instantly on a certain, easily achievable condition
(2) that you cannot dodge/deflect/block from, a power that simply does not miss...
...is OP in this game.
Playing a WK, you don't get to use SE much, so I can understand you thinking it is some kind of insta-kill move. But the truth is it will very often fail in teamfights because of cc/interuption. Also, yes, shockingly, execution moves are very common in all games, pvp or not, mmo, mobas, fighting games, and people have no problems with them being in a game, as I've already mentioned, diversity is good. So yeah people will actually defend it, and you don't have to theorize why they will defend it, you are having arguments at your disposal. Execution moves fill a gap and are needed.
Again, you simply ignore/evade the point. Who said anything about removing execution? Did I even once mention a nerf in damage, or any of its basic traits in regards to how it kills? It's the inevitability of the power that is the problem.
In its current incarnation, it's a no-brainer power. Does it fail in a CC heavy environment? Maybe. But does it compare to the how often other powers are so frequently dodged and made "Immune"? All other powers, no matter how powerful they are, no matter how much of an "I WIN" it may spell out, all need to fill out a certain condition: the condition, that it hits. The enemy does not cleverly dodge away. The enemy doesn't see it coming. The enemy is not expecting it at all. What in hecks name do you think Shox is so special that it gets to avoid that? Because it is 'named' "Execution"?
How much more crutch does one need?
To some of the later posts, I don't understand that if you file a report, what kind of feedback do you expect to see other than how it works in-game? There is no assumption regarding SE, simply a fact, how it works in-game. Are you seriously arguing it was changed to not work correctly? In the all class balancing patch? That is completely counter-intuitive, if anything.
I'm saying the developers thought it would be a good idea and futzed it up. Geez, get a clue, man.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Constricting Arrow and Grasping Roots. Who says these were bugs? Did any developers officially confirm they were?
I mean, we all assumed it was a bug, but doesn't its existence in its form confirm the intent? I mean, who cares if it was essentially a form of CC that simply ignored CC immunity? The HR players could so easily argue (and most times, make sense, even) that they're already hard pressed against most fast-ITC rotation TR builds, and realistically the Constricting Arrow and Grasping Roots would be their only form of real counter against a "God-mode" ITC and DF spamming.
So, did us TR players just keep quiet and take it in that it was just what their powers is like, and we should simply accept the fact that it ignores CC immunity? Because the power is named "Grasping Roots", and visually, it's less of a true CC and more of a "summon" type of power which brings in a separate entity to grab on to anything?
I would venture a guess a lot of people here have either at one point or another, when fighting HRs, all whispered through their teeth how Grasping Roots being applied no matter how you evade it, is simply bullshi*. Or how constricting arrow just ignores ITC and still squeezes your balls and keeps interrupting your power activation.
Inevitability in a power, is bullshi*. Plain and simple. Constricting Arrow and grasping roots could have been 10 times more powerful than it is now, and people still wouldn't have complained about it if it only respected how powers were supposed to be dodgeable, and how CC immunity makes you immune to CCs. 10 times more powerful? So what, I can dodge them. No problems. But once it becomes inevitable, then there's a problem, right there.
That's why people, TRs included, whined and moaned so much about how its bullshi* that they finally decided to fix it, and rightfully so. It was the right move. Just as making Shox respect dodge/immunity would be a right move.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
(ps) I think the argument is going in circles, and probably none of each side has any intention of changing their minds.
First, I want to apologize to anyone who might have been offended during the course of the debate. No hard feeling, I hope.
I think I've said everything that needs to be said on this point of view, so I'll refrain from making further statements -- repeating things already been said and annoying anyone. I guess its safe to say, "I rest my case".
I just hope the thread caught attention of any developers. Perhaps they might have heard the arguments from both sides. Maybe they'll decide to do something, maybe not. Even it doesn't change, well, then just back to business as usual.
Many thanks to spicen and yogoku for being patient with me and keeping me posted with opinions. Couldn't agree with any of it (lol ) , but still, different sides of the perspective always helps. Thanks for making time to discuss these stuff with an ol' crook like me.
Cheers, mates. I'm laying down my guns in this thread, but if there are others willing to discuss more, shoot away!
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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yogokouMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2014
No need for apologies, we're all internet veterans here (lol). The vines issue was in fact confirmed to be a bug by the devs, it was either on preview forum or bug forum when it was reported (kinda bored to look it up), it was also identified before the module went live (from the preview server). There is an upcoming patch that fixes it.
If the issue is really the un-"dodgeability" of SE, then those in favor of changing it would also be in favor of:
-Changing stealth so that it doesn't allow dailies to be used (effectively any daily used from stealth is undodgeable)
-Changing Bloodbath so if one hit is dodged, all hits are dodged (since it is effectively 80/60% undodgeable in its current state, depending on how much stamina the enemy has. It also outdamages SE on squishies and on high health non-squishies targets if you are in an 1-on-1. Oh and locks on targets in stealth as a bonus, as a true untargettable AOE).
-Giving Whirlwind of Blades a longer animation so it can actually be dodged (also hits much harder than SE on anything other than low health fighters, also AOE).
The repercussions from what you are asking are great, and affect TRs in a fundamental way (and more classes after that). That's why I think SE is working ok, and most people don't have an issue with its potential, it can just be unpleasant to see the long animation and know that you cannot dodge it, and you are about to get executed. But balance wise, I think it is in a good spot.
In any case, thank you Kweassa for the constructive debate .
No need for apologies, we're all internet veterans here (lol). The vines issue was in fact confirmed to be a bug by the devs, it was either on preview forum or bug forum when it was reported (kinda bored to look it up), it was also identified before the module went live (from the preview server). There is an upcoming patch that fixes it.
If the issue is really the un-"dodgeability" of SE, then those in favor of changing it would also be in favor of:
-Changing stealth so that it doesn't allow dailies to be used (effectively any daily used from stealth is undodgeable)
-Changing Bloodbath so if one hit is dodged, all hits are dodged (since it is effectively 80/60% undodgeable in its current state, depending on how much stamina the enemy has. It also outdamages SE on squishies and on high health non-squishies targets if you are in an 1-on-1. Oh and locks on targets in stealth as a bonus, as a true untargettable AOE).
-Giving Whirlwind of Blades a longer animation so it can actually be dodged (also hits much harder than SE on anything other than low health fighters, also AOE).
The repercussions from what you are asking are great, and affect TRs in a fundamental way (and more classes after that). That's why I think SE is working ok, and most people don't have an issue with its potential, it can just be unpleasant to see the long animation and know that you cannot dodge it, and you are about to get executed. But balance wise, I think it is in a good spot.
In any case, thank you Kweassa for the constructive debate .
Actually thats a totally different issue. What makes Shocking Execution the issue is that no matter what, even if you see it coming. Thats it. Nada. you're hit. And the capability for it to hit as hard as it hits adds on to that.
Moves like Bloodbath, they hit multiple times, also if you move to other people, all those hits will not just hit you, making it so you can get hit once or twice and it will just be scratches while the primary target the TR was going after will not be garrenteed that they'll even be hitting them unless they are alone. So its possible you can dodge out of the entire thing. Each individual hit is not really substantial (its like if you dodge flourish, if you dodge the first hit, you still can git hit by one or two of the other hits, but those hits aren't substantial, its all of them combined and the stun that makes it so). Using this from stealth wouldnt matter for you have invunerability frames when using it anyway. You could walk right up to someone out of stealth and acheive the same thing. I dont know why someone would target a specific person with this move unless they were alone anyway. Using stealth to come on them would be a waste of stealth to begin with if they were alone.
Whirlwind of Blades is instantaneous, it hits decently and is really the only next hard hitting move. I dont see no problem using it from stealth. The move hits decently versus one person, but has just a little bit more damage as a dazing strike with out the daze if you only hit one person. It would be a waste to use that on one person except for a quick kill for someone thats already low, and that requires you to be relatively close to the person (the radius is about as wide as split the sky ). Its the strongest AOE ability in a TR's arsenal, and even if you anticipated the attack, you can still dodge out of it and not get hit at all.
I personally like the idea of shocking execution, but the actual execution of the skill just isnt right in my opinion. When you execute someone, you perfer to do it when they arent looking or when they cant get away from it, not make the skill itself not possible to get away from out right.
An assassin stabs you in the back, you were looking. Thats an execution.
An executioner slams an axe, decapitating you. Your bound you cant get out.
In this case you are free to move and maneuver away from your assailant in most cases in how its used now, how is it an execution when they unleash something that has no sort of way of missing from the range it takes. Theres not even room for error for executing it wrong. Its as the almighty gods is striking you down. Its an assasination technique, and assasination techniques require right timing to work, they are very strong but you can mess up you're entire attempt if you mess up or the enemy does something you didnt expect/anticipate at the last moment.
Also Bloodbath is more useful for low armored characters simply because they are often difficult to get to in the first place to damage significantly, in addition that every individual hit can crit. Shocking Execution is more of an execution of a diffcult target to take down. And its this skill alone that can bust down a Sentinal GWF and GF once you soften them up a little. Using it on a soft armor target is unnessecary because a good portion of its damage comes from HP remaining and usually those Squishies have higher HP because they stay out of harms way the most and if they are low on HP instead, unless its desperation you are more than likely using Shocking Execution when you do not have to, the fighters are the ones in the face taking most the damage and has all the debuffs on them. But this skill hits hard regardless because even given those values, if Shocking Crits, its a hell of hurt no matter what class you are and how much HP you have. It can take somone down from full health to a quarter to a half on a none crit alone because deflection and mitigations do not work on this ability, as it should.
Nah its not totally unavoidable, I've had GWFs sprint far enough to where shocking execution has activated but not landed a hit because the target just about slithered out of range.
Other than that, its called shocking execution for a reason loool, I don't think its bullsh*t in that sense.
On the other hand, me landing a 42k crit in pvp on a GWF in unstoppable mode without any kind of buffs/debuffs going on, now that's bullsh*t.
Nah its not totally unavoidable, I've had GWFs sprint far enough to where shocking execution has activated but not landed a hit because the target just about slithered out of range.
Other than that, its called shocking execution for a reason loool, I don't think its bullsh*t in that sense.
On the other hand, me landing a 42k crit in pvp on a GWF in unstoppable mode without any kind of buffs/debuffs going on, now that's bullsh*t.
Not trying to start any arguments, but I've absolutely definitely missed with SE on quite a few occasions.
I'm not sure where you guys are getting the "unavoidable" thing from.
Or lags out because you are playing against people across the ocean.
I am with Kweassa.
Some game things might suck, but they are currently part of the game,
so deal with it,
increase your skills and improvise to succeed.
Let's see....GF's knockback move should have more animation to allow me to dodge in pvp. His leap should have longer animation to allow me to dodge in case I get hit with the knockback and downed and killed. GWF should have their temporary hit points nerfed so I don't have to kill him three times over before no more hit points come back.
HR roots should be intermittent to allow me to dodge out of the way. CWs knockback should be intermittent to allow me to dodge. CW's chokehold too. Cause I don't ever really see any of those moves coming, and cannot normally avoid them once I'm in them.
Think when I"m stealthed you should take my Lashing Blade too? Cuz ppl don't have a chance to dodge that either.
Or I could just get over it, use the skills I got to take the hits I get into, get outta the ones I can, and counterattack as hard as I can. Soooo....crying on a forum....or getting better? Which to choose...hmmm......
Let's see....GF's knockback move should have more animation to allow me to dodge in pvp. His leap should have longer animation to allow me to dodge in case I get hit with the knockback and downed and killed. GWF should have their temporary hit points nerfed so I don't have to kill him three times over before no more hit points come back.
HR roots should be intermittent to allow me to dodge out of the way. CWs knockback should be intermittent to allow me to dodge. CW's chokehold too. Cause I don't ever really see any of those moves coming, and cannot normally avoid them once I'm in them.
Think when I"m stealthed you should take my Lashing Blade too? Cuz ppl don't have a chance to dodge that either.
Or I could just get over it, use the skills I got to take the hits I get into, get outta the ones I can, and counterattack as hard as I can. Soooo....crying on a forum....or getting better? Which to choose...hmmm......
Everything you said is moot point when ALL of that is able to be dodged inherently from the get go, no matter the longer or shorter animation. Its dodgable period. It all depends on when you dodge or if anticipating the attack. But each of those are dodgable from the get go.
Longer or shorter animations to allow more openings to dodge is not the issue and not even being spoken about. Its the inability to dodge period, at all. Is the issue. You cannot counterattack an undodgable, unavoidable attack.
can't you get cc'ed or proned when do SE? iv'e been controlled and knockdown in mid animation, and of course the Gf can block Se also, a tr that itc'ed from stealth will dodge the SE.
But rather shouldn't they buff WK dailies/encounters rather then nerf SE.
can't you get cc'ed or proned when do SE? iv'e been controlled and knockdown in mid animation, and of course the Gf can block Se also, a tr that itc'ed from stealth will dodge the SE.
So, as a TR, what am I supposed to CC/prone someone going into Shoxecution with?
But rather shouldn't they buff WK dailies/encounters rather then nerf SE.
willsommersMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 103
edited February 2014
I find it funny people are complaining about the most nerfed class in game still. Nerfed into oblivion in PVE because of PVP whiners that got killed once by a stealthed TR. And FYI shocking execution had a HUGE nerf to it months ago.
I find it funny people are complaining about the most nerfed class in game still. Nerfed into oblivion in PVE because of PVP whiners that got killed once by a stealthed TR. And FYI shocking execution had a HUGE nerf to it months ago.
Thank you, I've been saying the same thing to so many ppl dude... We are suffering in PVE heavily because people just continue to cry in PVP which has no relevance or reward system in the game at the this moment in time... Its absolutely ridiculous, now we have a massive influx of GWFs to which people are also crying about since they got buffed. This cycle will never stop as long as people continue to be babies about PVP.
People still complain about the TR and think it is overpowered.
I have a Guild Mate who plays a GWF with 16k Gear Score and he still thinks the TR is way more powerful.
He did make a good point. A Good DC with high level gear can be just about impossible to kill due to it's ability to constantly heal itself.
With the new Tenacity armor and rules, I wonder how that is going to effect them. Without burst damage, it's going to be real tough to take down one of them
People still complain about the TR and think it is overpowered.
I have a Guild Mate who plays a GWF with 16k Gear Score and he still thinks the TR is way more powerful.
He did make a good point. A Good DC with high level gear can be just about impossible to kill due to it's ability to constantly heal itself.
With the new Tenacity armor and rules, I wonder how that is going to effect them. Without burst damage, it's going to be real tough to take down one of them
To my knowledge, in the new patch, if you take damage in pvp you will receive 40% less heals for 10 secs until this effect ends. Apparently this effects everything from life-steal to healer's heals (excluding potions).
Comments
Balancing takes time.
Having been a "developer" of IT-based projects myself, the actual time taken to fix stuff is in no way an indicator whether the developers are satisfied with it or not. Most usually projects/fixes are prioritized, and therefore, at moments there can be such a small thing, something like even a visual clipping bug, that could persist forever. Obviously that does not meen the developers approve of such a bug, does it?
It's percentage based.
The higher the HP, the bigger the HP pool left at under 40%. When something kills you outright, that is not on set numbers, that means the level could increase to 80, 100, our HPs to 50k, 100k levels, and still, you would be dead. With a (theoretically) 100k HP pool, Shox would hit for 40k damage to instantly kill you. If our HP increases to 200k, it will hit for 80k. If we pass over the "Epic" level and enter the realm of demi-gods under Ao, that still wouldn't matter. It would kill gods, if gods have a concept of HP.
Percentage-based damage is typically some of the most powerful attacks possible in a game like this.
Again, this set term "viability" I find to be most usually very limited, very short-sighted, and often very repressive and narrow -- especially when it comes from "knowledgeable" people in PvP. (**Actually, in many cases the opinions of the pros, ironically, are some of the worst mis-informed. I've got a few stories about it, but that would be digressing...) It would probably deserve a separate thread for a discussion, hence, I will not dwell into it any deeper.
I'll just say that getting rid of the "unavoidable" trait, as a matter of fact, is totally irrelevant to what you have mentioned in its defense. The damage would be the same. The results would be the same. The only difference would be you'll need to actually think about how to land it. (**Hence, I would in that case support a change in activation time so it'd be much faster, almost as fast as -- for instance -- Hateful Knives)
Are you even listening to yourself?
How in the world would you even compare it to any other "undodgeable" powers (for instance, any power that would apply Grasping Roots for HRs)?? Are you seriously saying a power that you have no way of stopping or defending against, which would in most cases just obliterate you and instantly land a win to the other guy, under very easily achievable conditions, has no problems at all???
I've seen more games die of poor balance.
A noble effort, but ultimately vain, I'm afraid.
The very reason TRs tend to fiercely defend Shox and its unavoidable trait, by itself supports an assumption that in actual combat, in the every-day cases we see, Shox works, and works very well.
I've met some of the more renowned TRs in matches. I've seen them go up against other TRs as well. Sorry, unless in unrealistically rare cases, no, there is no 'defending' against Shox. People know this, which is why they want it to stay this way. I could probably bid my left nut on the bet that you could pit two of the most experienced TRs against each other, and none of them would be able to just exactly estimate when Shox will fire up, and even if they did, they will not be able to "defend" against it successfully. Shox lands. No matter what.
I could easily make up a same theoretical argument about how my WK build can be every bit as "competitive and viable" as a MI build, and be able to exactly estimate when the ITC fires up and ends, and pin-point that timing to land a stun to connect it with a Dazing Strike combo to totally obliterate any stealth/ITC-spamming TR build. Sounds great, doesn't it?
Again, despite the argument, the problem is that none of what you argue has any relevance with the removal of the "unavoidable" trait. In this case your prior argument actually works against you -- if there is no such thing as luck, and everything can be set up to exactly what someone wants, then the removal of the "unavoidable" trait would have absolutely no effect on the TRs that are actually skilled and experienced enough to set it up at the exact timing they want. They'll be able to see through the dodge timing, and still land it, no?
The only people this suggestion would directly effect, is those not as skilled, and therefore relies on total dumb luck where the AP charges up at that lucky moment you need it the most.
However, people still fiercely defend it, why?
Because they don't want it to be dodged. Some foes are slippery. Experienced CWs or HRs can be very difficult to get to. Sometimes, a crucial prone from a fighter-class may disturb the timing you hoped for. There are so many factors, sometimes random, sometimes relying on luck, that can mess things up -- if the unavodiable trait is removed, Shox will be effected by this as well.
But as it is, it is not. Whatever the crappy luck dice rolls, in usual cases, Shox will fire up, ignore the dodge, ignore the evasion or deflection, ignore the unlucky timing, ignore the enemies counter attack attempt, heck, ignore the invincible-mode Bloodbath, ignore all of the factors that can make it go wrong (just as any other power), and simply land it.
That my friend, is the very definition of DEUS EX MACHINA. If the developers were gods, the trait "unavodiable" they gave it is the forceful hand that just alters any reality/factor that may intervene, and force the set-result. And some people, including myself, are calling it bullshi*.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The exception being if you're killed after you've activated it, then you're just dead
I think the only thing I could add to this is that I *use* to be able to dodge it. pre-mod1. It was possible to dodge it. I know, I did it often on my CW. That's the level of skill that can be out there to avoid it. Now, I can not. That means something changed and it was rendered undodgable.
I'd also like to point out that bug reports have been filed and we don't get feedback on that. We generally don't see what bugs, at all are repaired in the system by the devs to start with. So saying there is no response is also an assumption. I'll be the first to say, I don't know if it works right or not. From my observations of past to now, there was a change in effect that makes it look like it is not working correctly. I don't want it to lose damage, I don't care if it was faster to activate. I just want my chance to dodge it. If you can dodge an IK, which is also a slow, massively hard hitting kill shot, then it should be possible to dodge SE.
This really should be looked at, if you ask me. It would give "squishies" a chance to avoid it while the only class I actually use it on still will have to deal with my "OP" 12-14k crits (gbile). Everything else, especially the damage, should remain as is.
Have you done testing on your claims, namely that the damage has no "cap", so scales with HP? I'm not saying that you're wrong but from my experience (never really paid close attention), it would hit about as hard on a 15%-left-40khp-Sent (Say 14k damage, crit) as on a 15%-left-22khp-Destroyer (14k as well). Thus, SE dmg calculation would follow a formula that would look something like Basedmg*(1/(100-currenthp%])) if opponent's hp pool is < ~50% and also having a maximum at ~10-15%. Damage dealt would go up into quadrillions if there wouldn't be a lower percent cap on the calculations, "lim(x->0) for 1/x = ∞ etc", you know the drill.
So, unless I got you wrong, I don't think that it just drains a fixed amount of HP as you said. Otherwise you should be able to - say - 25%-0% any boss as well, which I don't recon to be possible.
Forgive me if I'm on the wrong track, I just don't heavily rely on SE and don't PVE with my TR. So there sure are people with more well-founded input on SE's damage scaling.
If I've crit with 68k shocking execution on last boss in SP recently with my full pvp spec TR, so only 100% crit severity from the feats( I don't have deadly momentum), Abit over 7k power with buffs from swashbuckling set and rampaging madness, arp capped etc and the boss was at about 10% HP i think (and the boss has milloins of HP), so I think you're right here, and shocking execution doesn't definately need nerf.
All I see in this thread is your argument about a power you used not working properly, which turned into a nerf discussion when people explained to you you were mistaken in the first place. Yeah I hate to be that guy but that just screams "l2p" having thrown at you. Making a super long casting move also dodgeable just make any sense to me, sorry. As I said, agree to disagree.
Playing a WK, you don't get to use SE much, so I can understand you thinking it is some kind of insta-kill move. But the truth is it will very often fail in teamfights because of cc/interuption. Also, yes, shockingly, execution moves are very common in all games, pvp or not, mmo, mobas, fighting games, and people have no problems with them being in a game, as I've already mentioned, diversity is good. So yeah people will actually defend it, and you don't have to theorize why they will defend it, you are having arguments at your disposal. Execution moves fill a gap and are needed.
To some of the later posts, I don't understand that if you file a report, what kind of feedback do you expect to see other than how it works in-game? There is no assumption regarding SE, simply a fact, how it works in-game. Are you seriously arguing it was changed to not work correctly? In the all class balancing patch? That is completely counter-intuitive, if anything.
Also there is a cap, base damage is only affected by a multiplier of your target's missing hp, regardless of the actual hp number missing.
It becomes even worse when it comes to PvP since the latency of both players becomes an issue.
Question: "How can you get away from a GWF, when all your escape powers are gone?"
Answer: "Go hug the GWF, maneuver behind him with every attack he tries to make. As long as he isn't holding down CTRL, you'll evade every move."
...hope you get what I am trying to say here.
You're addicted to it as much as any other guy.
Anybody in their right mind would very easily understand why a power that;
(1) kills instantly on a certain, easily achievable condition
(2) that you cannot dodge/deflect/block from, a power that simply does not miss...
...is OP in this game.
Again, you simply ignore/evade the point. Who said anything about removing execution? Did I even once mention a nerf in damage, or any of its basic traits in regards to how it kills? It's the inevitability of the power that is the problem.
In its current incarnation, it's a no-brainer power. Does it fail in a CC heavy environment? Maybe. But does it compare to the how often other powers are so frequently dodged and made "Immune"? All other powers, no matter how powerful they are, no matter how much of an "I WIN" it may spell out, all need to fill out a certain condition: the condition, that it hits. The enemy does not cleverly dodge away. The enemy doesn't see it coming. The enemy is not expecting it at all. What in hecks name do you think Shox is so special that it gets to avoid that? Because it is 'named' "Execution"?
How much more crutch does one need?
I'm saying the developers thought it would be a good idea and futzed it up. Geez, get a clue, man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Constricting Arrow and Grasping Roots. Who says these were bugs? Did any developers officially confirm they were?
I mean, we all assumed it was a bug, but doesn't its existence in its form confirm the intent? I mean, who cares if it was essentially a form of CC that simply ignored CC immunity? The HR players could so easily argue (and most times, make sense, even) that they're already hard pressed against most fast-ITC rotation TR builds, and realistically the Constricting Arrow and Grasping Roots would be their only form of real counter against a "God-mode" ITC and DF spamming.
So, did us TR players just keep quiet and take it in that it was just what their powers is like, and we should simply accept the fact that it ignores CC immunity? Because the power is named "Grasping Roots", and visually, it's less of a true CC and more of a "summon" type of power which brings in a separate entity to grab on to anything?
I would venture a guess a lot of people here have either at one point or another, when fighting HRs, all whispered through their teeth how Grasping Roots being applied no matter how you evade it, is simply bullshi*. Or how constricting arrow just ignores ITC and still squeezes your balls and keeps interrupting your power activation.
Inevitability in a power, is bullshi*. Plain and simple. Constricting Arrow and grasping roots could have been 10 times more powerful than it is now, and people still wouldn't have complained about it if it only respected how powers were supposed to be dodgeable, and how CC immunity makes you immune to CCs. 10 times more powerful? So what, I can dodge them. No problems. But once it becomes inevitable, then there's a problem, right there.
That's why people, TRs included, whined and moaned so much about how its bullshi* that they finally decided to fix it, and rightfully so. It was the right move. Just as making Shox respect dodge/immunity would be a right move.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
First, I want to apologize to anyone who might have been offended during the course of the debate. No hard feeling, I hope.
I think I've said everything that needs to be said on this point of view, so I'll refrain from making further statements -- repeating things already been said and annoying anyone. I guess its safe to say, "I rest my case".
I just hope the thread caught attention of any developers. Perhaps they might have heard the arguments from both sides. Maybe they'll decide to do something, maybe not. Even it doesn't change, well, then just back to business as usual.
Many thanks to spicen and yogoku for being patient with me and keeping me posted with opinions. Couldn't agree with any of it (lol
Cheers, mates.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If the issue is really the un-"dodgeability" of SE, then those in favor of changing it would also be in favor of:
-Changing stealth so that it doesn't allow dailies to be used (effectively any daily used from stealth is undodgeable)
-Changing Bloodbath so if one hit is dodged, all hits are dodged (since it is effectively 80/60% undodgeable in its current state, depending on how much stamina the enemy has. It also outdamages SE on squishies and on high health non-squishies targets if you are in an 1-on-1. Oh and locks on targets in stealth as a bonus, as a true untargettable AOE).
-Giving Whirlwind of Blades a longer animation so it can actually be dodged (also hits much harder than SE on anything other than low health fighters, also AOE).
The repercussions from what you are asking are great, and affect TRs in a fundamental way (and more classes after that). That's why I think SE is working ok, and most people don't have an issue with its potential, it can just be unpleasant to see the long animation and know that you cannot dodge it, and you are about to get executed. But balance wise, I think it is in a good spot.
In any case, thank you Kweassa for the constructive debate
Actually thats a totally different issue. What makes Shocking Execution the issue is that no matter what, even if you see it coming. Thats it. Nada. you're hit. And the capability for it to hit as hard as it hits adds on to that.
Moves like Bloodbath, they hit multiple times, also if you move to other people, all those hits will not just hit you, making it so you can get hit once or twice and it will just be scratches while the primary target the TR was going after will not be garrenteed that they'll even be hitting them unless they are alone. So its possible you can dodge out of the entire thing. Each individual hit is not really substantial (its like if you dodge flourish, if you dodge the first hit, you still can git hit by one or two of the other hits, but those hits aren't substantial, its all of them combined and the stun that makes it so). Using this from stealth wouldnt matter for you have invunerability frames when using it anyway. You could walk right up to someone out of stealth and acheive the same thing. I dont know why someone would target a specific person with this move unless they were alone anyway. Using stealth to come on them would be a waste of stealth to begin with if they were alone.
Whirlwind of Blades is instantaneous, it hits decently and is really the only next hard hitting move. I dont see no problem using it from stealth. The move hits decently versus one person, but has just a little bit more damage as a dazing strike with out the daze if you only hit one person. It would be a waste to use that on one person except for a quick kill for someone thats already low, and that requires you to be relatively close to the person (the radius is about as wide as split the sky ). Its the strongest AOE ability in a TR's arsenal, and even if you anticipated the attack, you can still dodge out of it and not get hit at all.
I personally like the idea of shocking execution, but the actual execution of the skill just isnt right in my opinion. When you execute someone, you perfer to do it when they arent looking or when they cant get away from it, not make the skill itself not possible to get away from out right.
An assassin stabs you in the back, you were looking. Thats an execution.
An executioner slams an axe, decapitating you. Your bound you cant get out.
In this case you are free to move and maneuver away from your assailant in most cases in how its used now, how is it an execution when they unleash something that has no sort of way of missing from the range it takes. Theres not even room for error for executing it wrong. Its as the almighty gods is striking you down. Its an assasination technique, and assasination techniques require right timing to work, they are very strong but you can mess up you're entire attempt if you mess up or the enemy does something you didnt expect/anticipate at the last moment.
Also Bloodbath is more useful for low armored characters simply because they are often difficult to get to in the first place to damage significantly, in addition that every individual hit can crit. Shocking Execution is more of an execution of a diffcult target to take down. And its this skill alone that can bust down a Sentinal GWF and GF once you soften them up a little. Using it on a soft armor target is unnessecary because a good portion of its damage comes from HP remaining and usually those Squishies have higher HP because they stay out of harms way the most and if they are low on HP instead, unless its desperation you are more than likely using Shocking Execution when you do not have to, the fighters are the ones in the face taking most the damage and has all the debuffs on them. But this skill hits hard regardless because even given those values, if Shocking Crits, its a hell of hurt no matter what class you are and how much HP you have. It can take somone down from full health to a quarter to a half on a none crit alone because deflection and mitigations do not work on this ability, as it should.
Other than that, its called shocking execution for a reason loool, I don't think its bullsh*t in that sense.
On the other hand, me landing a 42k crit in pvp on a GWF in unstoppable mode without any kind of buffs/debuffs going on, now that's bullsh*t.
Not trying to start any arguments, but I've absolutely definitely missed with SE on quite a few occasions.
I'm not sure where you guys are getting the "unavoidable" thing from.
Shocking Execution only misses when the target goes just out of range.
I am with Kweassa.
Some game things might suck, but they are currently part of the game,
so deal with it,
increase your skills and improvise to succeed.
Your other choice is to whine and lose.
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
HR roots should be intermittent to allow me to dodge out of the way. CWs knockback should be intermittent to allow me to dodge. CW's chokehold too. Cause I don't ever really see any of those moves coming, and cannot normally avoid them once I'm in them.
Think when I"m stealthed you should take my Lashing Blade too? Cuz ppl don't have a chance to dodge that either.
Or I could just get over it, use the skills I got to take the hits I get into, get outta the ones I can, and counterattack as hard as I can. Soooo....crying on a forum....or getting better? Which to choose...hmmm......
Everything you said is moot point when ALL of that is able to be dodged inherently from the get go, no matter the longer or shorter animation. Its dodgable period. It all depends on when you dodge or if anticipating the attack. But each of those are dodgable from the get go.
Longer or shorter animations to allow more openings to dodge is not the issue and not even being spoken about. Its the inability to dodge period, at all. Is the issue. You cannot counterattack an undodgable, unavoidable attack.
You're whole argument is flawed.
But rather shouldn't they buff WK dailies/encounters rather then nerf SE.
So, as a TR, what am I supposed to CC/prone someone going into Shoxecution with?
Unavoidable/Un-CC-immunity-able Hateful Knives. Imagine that.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I saw the WK do his back flip.
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
Thank you, I've been saying the same thing to so many ppl dude... We are suffering in PVE heavily because people just continue to cry in PVP which has no relevance or reward system in the game at the this moment in time... Its absolutely ridiculous, now we have a massive influx of GWFs to which people are also crying about since they got buffed. This cycle will never stop as long as people continue to be babies about PVP.
I have a Guild Mate who plays a GWF with 16k Gear Score and he still thinks the TR is way more powerful.
He did make a good point. A Good DC with high level gear can be just about impossible to kill due to it's ability to constantly heal itself.
With the new Tenacity armor and rules, I wonder how that is going to effect them. Without burst damage, it's going to be real tough to take down one of them
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
To my knowledge, in the new patch, if you take damage in pvp you will receive 40% less heals for 10 secs until this effect ends. Apparently this effects everything from life-steal to healer's heals (excluding potions).