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LoL.. I gotta say this.. Shocking Execution is..
kweassa
Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
Had the most amazing thing happen to me yesterday.
When there are powers that do not activate instantly, in most cases when you literally 'lose' target, the activation fails. A good example would be losing the LOS(line of sight) to a target as Shadow Strike is activated. Activation failure, power goes into cooldown, but has not hit.
Same thing applies to even daily powers as well, most noticeably to Hateful Knives, the Daily given exclusively to WKs. You dash forward, the target dodges, and then *poof*, power is spent. No effect.
Now, this is what happened.
Two rogues square off, both around half-HP gone. I've got the better of him, since I forced out his Bloodskull and SF zombie mode, but judging by the duration of the fight I am worried that Shoxecution is coming soon. But I also have a teeney bit left until my own AP is full. After a few seconds, AP is charged.
I activate Bloodbath, and at the same time, the enemy goes into Shoxecution. Man, talk about timing.. literally "simultaneous" activation by both parties!
I think to myself, "There! I've got the fight! Bloodbath is invincible."
...and, with that "Bloodbath laughter" I start blinking in and out and stab him for 3~4 times when...
**BAM!!!!**
In the middle of Bloodbath that has already activated and attacking, Shoxecution lands. I'm dead.
Bloodbath isn't mere "untargetable". Even non=target AoE attacks don't register during Bloodbath. BB is literally invincible during activation.. and yet, still, Shoxecution simply kills me. During BB. What this means, is that the jump up and stab motion of Shoxecution, is simply a show. If the power activates, then it is already registered as a hit even before the hit is visibly confirmed.
LoL,
I gotta says this.. Compared to how Hateful Knives need such careful activation, or any otrher dailies for that matter, Shoexcution.. man.. this "unavoidable" trait, is frankly bullshi*.
When there are powers that do not activate instantly, in most cases when you literally 'lose' target, the activation fails. A good example would be losing the LOS(line of sight) to a target as Shadow Strike is activated. Activation failure, power goes into cooldown, but has not hit.
Same thing applies to even daily powers as well, most noticeably to Hateful Knives, the Daily given exclusively to WKs. You dash forward, the target dodges, and then *poof*, power is spent. No effect.
Now, this is what happened.
Two rogues square off, both around half-HP gone. I've got the better of him, since I forced out his Bloodskull and SF zombie mode, but judging by the duration of the fight I am worried that Shoxecution is coming soon. But I also have a teeney bit left until my own AP is full. After a few seconds, AP is charged.
I activate Bloodbath, and at the same time, the enemy goes into Shoxecution. Man, talk about timing.. literally "simultaneous" activation by both parties!
I think to myself, "There! I've got the fight! Bloodbath is invincible."
...and, with that "Bloodbath laughter" I start blinking in and out and stab him for 3~4 times when...
**BAM!!!!**
In the middle of Bloodbath that has already activated and attacking, Shoxecution lands. I'm dead.
Bloodbath isn't mere "untargetable". Even non=target AoE attacks don't register during Bloodbath. BB is literally invincible during activation.. and yet, still, Shoxecution simply kills me. During BB. What this means, is that the jump up and stab motion of Shoxecution, is simply a show. If the power activates, then it is already registered as a hit even before the hit is visibly confirmed.
LoL,
I gotta says this.. Compared to how Hateful Knives need such careful activation, or any otrher dailies for that matter, Shoexcution.. man.. this "unavoidable" trait, is frankly bullshi*. Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Post edited by kweassa on
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In pvp when u see that larger vertical knife, and you are on the ceiving end, normally the next word out of your mouth consists of only 4 letters.
Leaving dead question marks everywhere
WK is new and there are still things to be discovered. MI is out for much longer, so it's not surprising people figured out quite good builds already.
Talking about feelings, I feel (-> subjective) WK is inferior to MI, but if objectively so, it has to be buffed. Not simply ignored. Even if it won't be buffed, I'm still gonna play WK rather than MI. I play PvP for fun, and WK is way more fun for me than these cheesy MI builds.
And regarding Shocking Execution: I can't agree with your list. No other daily is this OP. Undodgeable (I read it can be dodged, but either this was a troll post, because I have never dodged it and have never seen anybody dodging it (and I PvP a lot), or the frame window to dodge it is so small it's improbable to manage to dodge it - especially taking latency into account), going through things like ITC and GWFs Berserk, dealing full damage and even more based on how much life a target already is missing. Uuuuhm, yeah.
And nobody can tell me as counter-argument "but, but...TRs build AP so slow, they NEED such a strong daily!". A TR can improve its AP building. Best feat for this: Action Rush. But since most TRs take Executioner path, it's not surprising they justify SEs OP-ness with this "argument".
I wonder how SE still wasn't nerfed, as what I'm stating is nothing new. I don't mind if this daily stays as it is in PvE, but change it's properties in PvP. A property-change like that is already in game. CWs control spells last (rightfully) way shorter in PvP than in PvE. This concept has to be extended vastly. Otherwise nerfs based on PvP will continue to destroy PvE and rightfully upset players and increase the hate of pure PvE-players against PvPers. All of this is also nothing new. But until now the devs unfortunately don't seem to listen.
You do know that what's making WK work right now is a broken mechanic, right? Because it is supposed to have a cooldown, but I'm not calling for nerfs. I want the toys of other players to remain intact, because it's what's giving them fun in the game and in the end that's what matters. Which is why I'd much rather appreciate the beauty of something powerful rather than complain. But at the very least, please do not pretend to not know that Vengeance's Pursuit is broken; hence bringing it along the same line of cheesiness as what you call these "cheesy" MI builds. It's particularly disturbing to see someone who is using a bugged WK skill preach about cheesiness.
While I agree that the TR's horrendously slow AP generation is absolutely no excuse to retain the undodgeable mechanic of such a powerful daily, what exactly is it that you're trying to say? I don't understand the reason for the hate, for the use of such a condescending tone towards those who are not the same as you. Is it that important to be different? It's just confounding why this has to be a WK vs. MI sort of thing... because it doesn't really need to be like this.
It's just sad since we're all from the same class trying to find ways to have fun playing the game, yet it's blowing out to be some sort of contest between who's better or who's more unique and different, or who's more skilled, or who's OP and needs a nerf and who's "in the line of cheesiness."
Indeed. It's nothing new, which is why it has been nerfed already back in beta.
I apologize if this seemed out of place and I assure you guys that I'm usually not like this, but in all honesty I for one just can't stomach this scene anymore. It's unhealthy for our community. We're in the forums to discuss but let's not do it like this if possible.
And I'm sorry if you - or anyone using MI - feel offended - that isn't my intention. And I'm not intentionally "preaching". I just don't find MI fun. "cheesy" is a bad used word here, I agree.
You already answered that question within the same sentence: "there is absolutely no excuse to retain the undodgeable mechanic of such a powerful daily" - that's what I'm trying to say.
Hmm, you perceive a tone in my post that isn't intentional. I have no problem with players using this path. Again, it's me that doesn't like MI. If others have fun playing it, great. But those who use SE, please don't pretend it isn't OP. I've met some players thinking this (and justifying it with the AP gain) and I don't find that right. Hence this part of my response.
To be different? No, everyone should play what's fun for them. For me it simply is WK over MI.
Why WK vs. MI? The first part of my response I stated as personal opinion, since I don't find it right to convince somebody to change their playstyle if they like it and have fun with it. The second part of my response is all about SE.
As stated above: you're getting me wrong. No contest, just preferences. Except SE.
It was even more powerful before? Wow, I didn't know that. But it's still not balanced for PvP yet.
It's fine, tell us what you think.
Its not undodgable, at all. Not in the slightest. I've tested in every way possible. The only way is if you just so happen to get far enough out of thier range when they activate it. Even then it does not waste the AP of the skill, then can catch up and just use it again.
This is the one daily that I call to be quite cheap and have been for some time. Out of all the things that leaves you invincible for a period of time and/or untargetable, it still hits you. The only way to negate that attack is a GF's shield.
the base damage was reduced from beta. That was it, and thats not really all that great of a nerf it got then.
And one could argue Vengence Pursuit is broken in two forms. For one the cooldown (but it has a very very low damage range for an encounter) and two it does not remove CC in any form in its second phase of activation.
I see, I was mistaken. I apologize if I got you wrong, crstal982f. The way you wrote your reply in this post is much clearer. If you didn't clear it up, I would probably still be thinking that it was some sort of ego boost post or even a troll post.
1. Yes. I agree wholeheartedly. What makes VP usable is the fact that it's broken. I personally would like the devs to consider retaining this. If its CC-immunity mechanic gets fixed and the CD of the power is still on 0, then I guess we can safely assume that the devs have decided to retain it.
2. Glad we can agree about that word. It's plain bigotry.
3. Thank you for clarifying! And yes, I agree. SE should be dodgeable. We've tried suggesting this a couple of times already, ever since beta but to no avail.
4. Oh no it's cool since I got it already. Was a mistake on my part. It can be hard to interpret things correctly in the internet.
5. - - -
6. Yes it was! You would have been cussing buckets if you got it by it lol.
7. I definitely will.
However, it would appear the way Shocking Execution is able to act as a tank-finisher, by ignoring mitigation, is exactly the same mechanic that enables it to ignore damage immunity. I do not believe devs have figured out a way to separate these two mechanics. Thus, given that TRs always have an opening advantage and can deal large damage from melee and range against squishy targets, the tank-finisher becomes a perfect-finisher (especially given SE is based on missing health and has a massive range).
The inability to balance this one aspect of SE seems to cause TRs to be balanced around SE. For a recent example of that, see the incoming additional nerfs to Impact Shot. This reduces the diversity and fun of the class in both PvP and PvE, yet the complaints against SE will never end precisely because there is no counter to it...
Yes, other dailies like i.e. Ice Knife from CWs can also deal much damage and IK even has a prone effect, but it's easily dodgeable, if the CW doesn't back it up by locking an enemy down (Icy Rays, ...). But even then a hit isn't guaranteed because of mechanics like stealth-ITC - but I'm fine with all of this. And I'd be fine with everything SE does - if it's dodgeable like any other daily.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Its not a real plausible counter to it.
Lol, you have 16k hp or what?
Shocking execution not being dodgeable, that is not reason to render a finisher daily intentionally designed for executing as OP. It's merely a design. Yes, no other class has such daily but no other class has stealth either. Does this mean every class needs to get their own stealth? No. Tr's don't have a single prone in MI path while every other dmg-dealing class has atleast one. Stop this silly complaining over a one daily power and get realistic with what is broken/OP and what is not.
A flawed design - in PvP.
Seriously? That is your argument? Wow. I'm baffled. I understand that you want to keep your "I Win"-button, but I mean...really? But let's take it seriously for a moment: Stealth is a class ability that defines the TR. SE is a single power in a specific paragon path. And in comparison to other dailies of all classes and paragon paths, SE is simply. Too. Good.
Is the class ability stealth too good in comparison to other class abilities? Maybe. But that's not the topic of this thread.
Other examples: CWs only CC-immune ability is a daily (Maelstrom of Chaos) which is also only available in paragon path "Storm Spell". MI-TRs have a CC-immune encounter (ITC), which i.e. a WK-TR is lacking. Sure there are differences in powers in classes and their paragon paths. Which is good - it creates diversity. So what exactly are you trying to say? For me it sounds like: "MI-TRs also need a prone". And then I have to ask: seriously?
Nope, because there is a good reason to complain.
When you have classes that inherently rely on dodge/evasion for self-defense, and then bring in a power that never misses and takes away at least half of your health even for builds that stock up on HP (and basically send to verge of death with non-HP stuffing builds), sure, that's OP.
I think it's more silly I am already stabbing the opponent 4~5 times with Bloodbath while that guy slowly floats in the air, and then still just simply, outright kills me in untargetable/invincible status, just because the power that is tagged as "unavoidable" has activated.
How would you MIs feel if WKs had a CC power that ignores ITC? It'd be just a design,right? I know. Let's "design" Vengeance's Pursuit in a better manner, since the power is, like, "Pursuit"? So once you mark the target, go into stealth, and then activate VP, the VP will never miss, will always stun, and thus cancel out ITC effects. I mean, the power isn't even high damage. Nothing dodges VP, it will always stun you.
But ofcourse, such a thing would be simply OP. An unavoidable, undodgeable CC, even if it is very brief, would kill anything, anyone. GWFs and perma-TRs alike. It'd be folly to ask for anything like that, which is exactly why the "unavoidable" part with Shoxecution is as much folly.
IMO, that is.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
2.) All I see is that you didn't invalidate one of the mentioned arguments. You just keep repeating, that you are right, and everyone else is wrong. Interesting way to "discuss".
EDIT: Oh, and 3.) This is a TR forum. I don't think many GWFs take a look in here. The absence of something isn't proof for their non-existence.
As I've said already a few times on the forums it's not skills or abilities what are making things unbalanced, its the gear difference. Also if you roll into pvp with low hp and offensive build you WILL die alot. Survivability is the key to successful pvp. Any class can reach +30k hp and atleast 1k regen, which has been proven the best defensive stats or any class in pvp. Myself I have 32k hp on my tr and 1.7k regen and I never get oneshotted to death from above 50% hp. If I get under 40% hp sure enemy tr can kill me with shocking if he catches me off guard. And even after then I have my soulforged and artifact there to save me. I don't see anything OP in this.
You realize, that - with these paragraphs - you do exactly the same? I also take it that you never encountered a TR pre MOD1 when you already moan about that tiny little thing that's left of the former SE.
I know what kind of response I'll get now, but oh well. I'm bored of studying anyways so shoot right away.
Oh, really? Hmm, did you read the whole thread (no offense, simple question)? Because I explained already the reasoning for my opinion of SE's OPness and argued with spicen's points.
That's right - I didn't PvP much these days, if I remember correctly.
As I understood, its damage got nerfed. But the inability to dodge it still persists, which I find OP.
And? How close is my response to your expectations?
Shocking Execution is non-dodgeable by design, the name is pretty self-explanatory: execution. You can interrupt it with any cc/interrupt move or simply move out of its range before the animation hits you to reset it, unlike other dailies. Basically a move that has 2 seconds casting time and almost zero seconds hitting frame, if you'd like, making almost impossible to dodge. Been like that for almost a year since the game started.
The fact it can't be dodged is OP. If you say 'no one else has stealth' wrong. HR has stealth.
If you say "GWF don't complain about it." wrong. They do, just not in the TR forum.
The fact that roots from HR went through ITC (couldn't be dodged) got SUCH complaints from TR, they got fixed. That means there HAS to be an ability to stop the attack. The fact there is not, points towards this being an issue in the system.
The fact that builds have to go defensive, have soulforged and the artifact, *JUST* to deal with 1 daily seems skewed to me. Why should this one daily be THAT strong, that it's required to have this stuff otherwise it's auto-win for the TR? And it is auto-win. Unless you happen to interrupt them (which doesn't take the AP) and kill them before your interrupt is over, they win. 40% health -> dead. Any class, as said.
That this is being argued is surprising. This isn't WK vs MI, or even TR vs other. This particular ability ignores defenses, ignores deflect, makes it so you can't immune it from any of the immune abilities (like ITC) and this is seen as 'non-OP, l2p' issue? How do you avoid bilethorn/cloud of steel spam? How do you learn to avoid the impact shot from stealth at distance that renders you stunned? I can get around some of it. I've even gotten a player's timing down to avoid that IS from stealth. There is nothing, absolutely zero, I can do, to stop SE. If they beat me down enough, it's instant win. I kill TRs. Unless they have SE. Then it's fighting like normal, TR almost dead, SE, boom, dead. Let me dodge it, even if a small window and keep it's damage. I don't care about that. But let me have that chance that my skill isn't rendered inert due to a mechanic.
If a rogue doesn't have the AP up for an SE, then in general I can beat them. It's not 100%. However, if they have SE, then my skill which has beaten them, is rendered meaningless by an undodgable daily. I've hit them with disrupting shot. I've hit them with a prone. Nothing I've seen done, can take the AP away. I've even tried to range them with ME and gotten tagged mid-escape out.
My point about the roots was that it broke things. SE breaks things. It breaks the same things root did. People still complain about SE and how that is broken. I think roots was easier to fix, as someone else mentioned, it's the ignore defenses that SE has, which roots did not.
I can't say for sure rather it's broken or not. I can say that I personally don't use it as soon as I found out that it can't be dodged any further. I should of separated my personal skill capabilities a bit more in my post however.
I'm confident SE has never been acknowledged as working unintended, and from my personal experience the metagame has evolved around its current form. In anything but GWF/Tanky DC, Bloodbath does more damage, if that means anything. Whirlwind of Blades does even more damage, and that skill is known to be bugged, but very few complain about that when they should. People complain about a lot of things, but some quality control over volume of complaints must be in effect. Complaints from the people with small understanding of the game mechanics shouldn't hold the same weight.
I think design uniformity is a game killer, new and unique mechanics is a good thing for the interest of the game. Not everything must work in the same template, that will kill all options except one in the end. In that we may agree to disagree, I guess. In any case, consider that the game currently only has a Domination mode, not Deathmach, so killing is not as crucial, and in that light the execution aspect of SE is less impactful. If/when a deathmatch mode is introduced, finisher skills might need to be re-examined.
I am hardly saying that I am more skilled than most TRs out there. I even said I can't take them all down. I just find in general my combat HR can take down TRs and it's usually SE that stops me. There are those who can just kill me. I get out played, etc, etc. I'm far from a top end uber-leet PVP'r or anything.
The metagame evolved around the SS/fox bug. Until it was fixed. People adapt. I adapt. That doesn't mean I don't want this looked at. I want all the bugs looked at. I want the bugs for HR looked at, since dodge being haphazard at best is poor. As well as a single dodge not being far enough to avoid DF. That, however, doesn't mean just because this potentially broken aspect (which it COULD be dodged and got changed, so that points towards a bug) is how it is now, should be how it stays, when it negates the human access.
Sorry, but existence doesn't justify intent, or rather, the outcome of that intent. People make mistakes, so do the developers. If anything, Shoxecution is a mistake.
The super-heavy damage, the defense-ignoring, everything can be accepted as a given trait within the boundaries of a given power -- so long as this power respects the 'rules' of how powers are implemented in this game. But no; this power, once activated, it will hit you no matter what. It is literally impossible to defend against it -- since the only means of defense against this power is simply refusing to fight in the first place. I would rather have the activation time half of what it is now so people can find it much easier to land it, rather than have it impossible to avoid.
shadow has explained it out much more eloquently than I could ever have, but it is basically as he laid down.
If someone is more skilled than another person, then is it not only fitting that the skilled person should win most, if not all, the time?
This single daily, it has nothing to do with being 'outplayed' or 'outmatched'. It's not about tactics or strategy. It is simply down to the moment of luck and praying to God that the opponent TR doesn't have full AP yet, because no matter how well played, unless it is a totally one sided game, every advantage in skill, every right moves you made, every time the other guy made stupid mistakes, that is all made null and void and simply, outright, unevitably, the outcome is decided. The guy pushing the button wins. You lose.
This isn't a "daily power"; it's a DEUS EX MACHINA. You don't need to see the timing. You don't have to worry about how slippery the target is with dodges/evades. You don't have to worry about his ITC. Light comes up, push the "I WIN" button. The fight is over.
...
Like shadow mentioned, it is quite surprising how anyone can see this as not a problem. I will admit, when I used to roll with MI builds and use Shoxecution myself, I really didn't think much of its implications. It was a good power, a trusty power, and waiting that moment until my AP all filled up, I could always hope to turn the outcome of the fight and come on top. No matter how stupidly I played, just get the HP down to around 40% and wait for the light and bam. I win. It wasn't until I stopped using MI builds, and stopped using Shox altogether, and came on the receiving end, did I start to realize just how much of a bullshi* this.
Squaring off against invisible ranged-TRs who pickle you with toothpicks and nuclear baseballs is hard enough. Seeing them turn "God Mode" when they come visible and simply laugh at anything you throw at them makes it worse. But what really makes it frustrating, is the fact that despite all that, despite the fact that your opponent's a perma/semi-perma + 15sec ITC rotation + IS spamming TR, you've managed to force him to use Bloodcrystal, you've already killed him once and forced the SF-zombie mode... and after all that, you still lose. A fight against TRs naturally take a long time. By the time you can really kill him, bam. Shoxecution. It doesn't matter how superior you were. You still lose, because you don't have one of those "I WIN" buttons.
I'd like to ask fellow TRs to think about this. Most of you guys are already superior players. Since these players also don't use a "gimp build" like mine, and stick to the "only viable build in competitive play", we can all imagine that the basic TR specifications is already more than enough to square off with any opponent.
I can probably guess even if Shox becomes dodgeable, you'd still find the right timing to hit it. You are all skilled players, and I certainly do not think you need this power to be "push to win". Do us TRs really need this to be unavoidable? Isn't that just too much of a crutch?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The existence is in fact the only true indicator of intent, and more so the outcome of that intent. Shocking Execution is not a mistake because you say so, and your wishful thinking is nothing more than an opinion. The only fact we have is that this point has been made again, and again, and again, in the past, the power has been reworked and it has remained unchanged for a very long time. It is certain that the devs have heard of these points, and yet the power remains as is. That is the only data we have and it points to the "working as intended" conclusion, simply because a very long time has passed unchanged. Anything else is you second-guessing the devs, that they proved recently they know how to play their game better than people think. As I said, you can submit a bug report as well.
SE is not super heavy hitting,it is weaker than many encounter powers. It is the weakest of the "viable" TR dailies, and it has a conditional use against specific, high health opponents in a specific time window (low-health). When it got changed most TRs took it of their list powers and it was generally considered trash for a while, as the metagame changed and everyone turned tanky it became more viable again. You can search the forum for this and my above point if you wish.
This power is not out of the boundaries of the rules of how powers in the implemented in the game. It is not the only undodgeable power in the game even. It is you who does not respect how this power is implemented in the game and try to convince people it is wrong. It will not hit you no matter what, me and other people have explained that. It is not impossible to defend against. If people can avoid a Lashing Blade from stealth with ease, then they can interrupt a SE provided they manage their powers right, it's been happening to me all the time. You may prefer it worked like other powers, I prefer diversity, that is a difference of opinions, nothing more to say about it. I've seen a lot of games dying because of enforced mechanics uniformity and simplification and as a long time player, I'm sure you have seen them too.
There is no metric of player skill in the game. People can only speculate. I think your definition of skill varies from mine. For me, not accepting how a certain power works and not taking it into consideration/using it as is implemented, is lack of skill. Especially if there is no formal acknowledgement that there is something wrong with it, after people have made queries.
Every power, every trade has everything to do into being outplayed/outmatched. There is no luck in pvp. Coordination/reflexes, decision-making/strategy, build, gear. That about sums it up. You don't have to pray to God the enemy TR doesn't have his daily full. You can safely expect it if you know how fast TRs charge up, and notice how much recovery your enemy has from his cds. It takes lots of experience? Of course, but no luck. There are lots of skills that if they hit you, you are dead, SE isn't the only one. A prone rotation can take you out without the need to be <40% health like SE. A CW from a blind spot can wait out your ITC cd and kill you from 80ft distance from full health. These plays define skill in this game. As I've mentioned again, killing isn't even the winning strategy in the PVP we play. If deathmatch is introduced, all these might be re-examined, who knows.
So for the reasons above I don't consider this a DEUS EX MACHINE or an "I win" button.
I play all classes. I have 7 lvl 60 characters, 12.5k gs minimum and rising, some have full r8+ etc (I prefer to spread the love a little instead of max-gearing one toon). I've been on the receiving edge of SE too often, but I've also seen the endless cycles of nerfs and complains and how they changed the game and how they've pigeon-holed the TR into a tanky permastealth build often with no offensive encounters, because of lack of competitive alternatives, and how a DPS class is forced to play tanky in PVP, and how it became redundant in PVE. And I always try to look at the greater picture. And SE doesn't even register in my view in the greater picture, with so many buggy powers/mechanics around.
Squaring off against stalling invisible enemies that slowly wear you down might be unfun and even annoying to some, but you are still facing a super squishy enemy that one prone/cc/lucky hit will give you the opening to kill him, no window to use SE. That is the issue of skill. SF and Bloodcrystal are not TR exclusive, everyone uses them. I can mention prolonged fights against any class - undying GWFs/DCs, node super defenders GFs, super kiting bursters HRs/CWs. And again I will mention you don't have to kill the enemy, merely force him to retreat and accumulate points. Not all matchups are equal but since all both teams can utilize the same classes there is perfect balance. Skill works not only on an personal level but also on a team level. I pug all the time and I've seen pro pvp-ers directing their team very often.
If SE changed, and with the incoming IS nerf, I'd be without any reliable hard hitting powers left except good ol' buggy Whirlwind. That is a sad fact for a DPS class. No idea if I'd continue to use it in my bar, probably only slot it if 2+ GWF/DC where on the other team. It would further reinforce the stealth TR build, and I'd probably end up playing my TR less and less. As a power that is a decent counter to the strongest class out there in pvp, I think it's pretty much needed right now. If you believe people will still use it with the right timing so as to not be avoided, why advocate the change in the first place? Why should the developers spend their resources and workhours on this and not something more pressing?
Cheers, and that's about all from me.