One and two shotting is part of the game, plenty of pve bosses do it. The only way you should even be hit that second time immediately by the same toon is if you are cc'd or if you are a GF. You don't let a pve boss hit you twice in a row do you? I play low gs fast and dirty. It is so much more about movement and smart team play than it is gs, perfects, or anything.
One and two shotting may be a part of a game, but its a part of a poorly made game. Now, that being said, one-two shotting doesn't really happen unless with significant difference in gear score. It's a more deeper problem than just one-two shotting, and a problem which lies in the grounds being uneven from the start.
What TRULY kills low level pvp is a fundamental lack of understanding of NW domination on the part of the players. Everyone going to home node at the start, or home just not being capped, fighting off node when more nodes are red than blue, trying to stand up and fight everyone and everything at the same time from a fixed position.
You could do all of those things right, and still be stomped hilariously. That's GS.
A human factor in PvP is an unquantifiable factor. Sometimes this factor is so extraordinarily powerful that it borders on superhuman levels, other times it is so ridiculously weak that it shows unbelievable stupidity. However, in most cases it usually shows a certain trend-group which can be loosely but arbitrarily defined. To make long story short, human factor is random but has certain limits.
OTOH, the very basic factor in PvP becomes the mechanical factor. Gear and equipment, these can be quantifiable. These show set numbers that can be directly compared to see which party is more advantageous. Sometimes the human factor can be enough to overcome the disparities in the gear factor, but when this difference goes over a certain level, then the amount of human factor required to overcome the disadvantage needs to border on superhuman levels.
...and this game, in terms of the effect of gear on character performance, is HUGE.
So, no. What breaks the PvP, low-level PvP as well, is uneven teams. Straight and simple.
What makes pvp fun and worth playing is beating players with a high gs/perfects when you have a low to mid gs. Someone shelled out a few hundred dollars or farmed for weeks for that perfect vorp and soulforged and all rank 7's +, and they can't hit your little character to kill it they get mad and can become easy to kite.
That may be possible in a 1vs1 scenario. But when it comes to a whole team of "mostly high GS" players, and a whole team of "mostly low GS players", sorry, no chance at all.
Add to that the fact that a team that has all the players with impeccable level of gear/equipment usually turn out to be premades, whereas a PuG team may have one or two good players but usually tends to have at least one or two "gaping holes" in the roster... there is no realistic chance that you can win. Life isn't sports movies. The underdog is the underdog, because he is always "under". Sure, perhaps one or two miracle matches every now and then. But so does winning the lottery.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I equipped my ranger with Perfects, Mulrohand gear and rank 8's. I continually upgraded his blue gear that was level appropriate. All which I purchased via the Ah with the rough AD I was refining and earning each day through quests/dailys.
I believe..without the mulrohand gear, somewhere around lvl 45 my GS was over 7k. Did you hear that? A 7k GS at lvl 45...all from items purchased again via the AH at a cost that was affordable to this lvl 45 character, and through equipping smartly the items I found while questing.
I seen people while doing pre 60 pvp with Murder(my HR), that were wearing gear that was easily 20, sometimes more, levels lower than there current level. These are the people that are complaining about getting killed by "twinks".
If you cant tell the difference between an item that has twice the amount of stats as another item, as well as its close to your level, then you deserve to get roflstomped in PvP..and you will continue to get stomped when you hit 60.
Sorry went off topic there...
As far as equipping these high rank items... The way I figure it...I leveled 4 characters to 60, and earned all the gear those characters are wearing. It is my right to move around gear and enjoy my playtime. Also, the mulrohand gear is so incredibly cheap nowadays anyone after a fiew days of completing pvp dailys would have enough refined AD to purchase nearly all of it. As well as equip it with rank 4-5 enchants.
I laugh at people calling them "twinks" actually. Mulrohand gear and perfects isn't a twink...... In EQ 1, I'd get bored and make a real twink. Lvl 1 monk with 2 Sceptres of Destruction, Fungi Tunic and a Cloak of Flames. Now THAT, was a twink
Be smart...surf the Ah, you'll find great lvl appropriate gear for extremely cheap.
I equipped my ranger with Perfects, Mulrohand gear and rank 8's.
...A 7k GS at lvl 45...all from items purchased again via the AH at a cost that was affordable to this lvl 45 character, and through equipping smartly the items I found while questing.
...It is my right to move around gear and enjoy my playtime.
Mulrohand gear and perfects isn't a twink......
Be smart...surf the Ah, you'll find great lvl appropriate gear for extremely cheap.
So, tell me, how do I get a Perfect Vorpal and R8 by level 45 on my first char by only doing dailies?
Mulhorands are not an issue, the weapon enchant slot they have is. Same as for R6+ on a lvl 20 char. This could be fixed so easily...doesn't matter anyway, done levelling my new char to 60 so the Vorpal-uberkidz are behind fortunately, its fair game now.
all fun stories, but i get 2 shot by some cw`s and do have deflect,defense spec and hp. 15.5k gs in pvp.
if i don`t drop a circle fast enough, and the delay of the circle activating is in my opinion way to slow.
but if it doesn`t get down soon enough i`m dead.
have also all defense boons there are. + perfect barkshield.
it doesn`t matter a thing, and dodging isn`t there vs a cw.
can say i need soulforged then vs some which can do that, but against most (other classes) the bark is better.
so i`m just screwed ;p usualy vs good cw`s
but that`s offtopic.
and being part of the game is all ok, but no one should mention the word skill with that ;p
I am having a hard time connecting the points your making. 15.5k gs? You get two shotted? Get out of the way, be unpredictable.
My toons get 1 and 2 shotted occasionally also but not so much that it is a problem and I don't have a single toon over 15k gs. Its because I do my best to not get hit period, much less twice. GF is a different story, GWF Sent can be a different story, but otherwise, if I am getting hit a lot I see it as fail.
One and two shotting may be a part of a game, but its a part of a poorly made game. Now, that being said, one-two shotting doesn't really happen unless with significant difference in gear score. It's a more deeper problem than just one-two shotting, and a problem which lies in the grounds being uneven from the start.
Grounds are as even as they can be minus matchmaking: everyone can farm the same items for the same amount of time invested and zen/ad prices are the same for all.
You could do all of those things right, and still be stomped hilariously. That's GS.
A human factor in PvP is an unquantifiable factor. Sometimes this factor is so extraordinarily powerful that it borders on superhuman levels, other times it is so ridiculously weak that it shows unbelievable stupidity. However, in most cases it usually shows a certain trend-group which can be loosely but arbitrarily defined. To make long story short, human factor is random but has certain limits.
OTOH, the very basic factor in PvP becomes the mechanical factor. Gear and equipment, these can be quantifiable. These show set numbers that can be directly compared to see which party is more advantageous. Sometimes the human factor can be enough to overcome the disparities in the gear factor, but when this difference goes over a certain level, then the amount of human factor required to overcome the disadvantage needs to border on superhuman levels.
But the human factor being unquantifiable, any point premised on the "human factor" is necessarily subjective. So what you said sounded nice, but really all it demonstrated was that my point and your point are on equal grounds.
...and this game, in terms of the effect of gear on character performance, is HUGE.
So, no. What breaks the PvP, low-level PvP as well, is uneven teams. Straight and simple.
Given that you already conceded that the human factor IS a factor, and is a factor that cannot be quantified, the degree to which gear affects performance can't even really be measured because "performance" its self cannot be measured other than in terms of actual wins and losses.
That may be possible in a 1vs1 scenario. But when it comes to a whole team of "mostly high GS" players, and a whole team of "mostly low GS players", sorry, no chance at all.
Conclusion arrived at via false (unverifiable) chain of assumptions. See above. You get teams of people who have shelled out a hundred or more dollars for their gear and who expect wins to be handed to them. They are easily trolled (without a word being said) and kited away from nodes, and end up focusing more on killing you than on which nodes are blue or red or contested. Not only is there a chance against a team like this but odds are you will win if you are focused on winning the match and not the little battles.
Three nodes 5 players. The high gs team can't be on all the nodes all the time, and at best can manage to have 2 on mid, 1 on home and 1 on enemy. The low gs team can go from node to node and just focus kill, 1 by 1.
Yes skill and team work. Sorry but who lacks that loses pvp regardless of gs.
Add to that the fact that a team that has all the players with impeccable level of gear/equipment usually turn out to be premades, whereas a PuG team may have one or two good players but usually tends to have at least one or two "gaping holes" in the roster... there is no realistic chance that you can win. Life isn't sports movies. The underdog is the underdog, because he is always "under". Sure, perhaps one or two miracle matches every now and then. But so does winning the lottery.
It would be an uninformed assumption to state that bis players are usually on premades. I don't even think it is true that most premades are bis.
I am at 8 wins of every 10 matches with just my 10k gwf. I only consider myself an average player. The trick is to play domination and not deathmatch. Because it is domination.
I am having a hard time connecting the points your making. 15.5k gs? You get two shotted? Get out of the way, be unpredictable.
My toons get 1 and 2 shotted occasionally also but not so much that it is a problem and I don't have a single toon over 15k gs. Its because I do my best to not get hit period, much less twice. GF is a different story, GWF Sent can be a different story, but otherwise, if I am getting hit a lot I see it as fail.
fact that it happens is already too much ;p and that being unpredictable is kind of hard on a flat open playground.
which is 4 out of 6 spots in the 2 arena`s actualy 6, if you want to be able to also contest all nodes instead of hiding behind a pillar.
edit: don`t know why i replied to this 2 shot and hiding. means a dc always need to hide from a cw within 2 seconds.
yes whatever ;p
not even sure how long it takes before a circle is realy there, it feels like it takes at least a second before it`s realy active on the ground.
Grounds are as even as they can be minus matchmaking: everyone can farm the same items for the same amount of time invested and zen/ad prices are the same for all.
Ay caramba.. that's like pitting a 3rd grader and Muhammad Ali in the same ring, and saying; "In time the kid can train and grow up to be like Ali, so everything's fair."
In terms of matchmaking, it doesn't matter whether it may be possible that a certain contendor may be at a certain level. The only thing matters is whether the initial conditions at the moment prior to the beginning of the match, is equal or not. It doesn't matter whether a pin-weight or a fly-weight fighter may be able to bulk up and eventually become a heavy-weight. The only thing matters is right before the match, are the two contendors equal in the weight category or not. If not? The match doesn't happen.
In here, a match between 5 feather-weights against 5 super-heavies happen all the time. "Uneven grounds".
But the human factor being unquantifiable, any point premised on the "human factor" is necessarily subjective. So what you said sounded nice, but really all it demonstrated was that my point and your point are on equal grounds.
Not really.
What you are saying is basically an excuse for an unfair situation where someone "might" be able to offset it with human factor. What I am saying is the human part can come later, and let's first even out the quantifiable factors, and then, only after then, we see how the human factor comes into play.
Given that you already conceded that the human factor IS a factor, and is a factor that cannot be quantified, the degree to which gear affects performance can't even really be measured because "performance" its self cannot be measured other than in terms of actual wins and losses.
Tell that to all the professional athletes armed to the teeth with prestige-level, custom built sports-wear/equipment makers, please.
Conclusion arrived at via false (unverifiable) chain of assumptions. See above. You get teams of people who have shelled out a hundred or more dollars for their gear and who expect wins to be handed to them. They are easily trolled (without a word being said) and kited away from nodes, and end up focusing more on killing you than on which nodes are blue or red or contested. Not only is there a chance against a team like this but odds are you will win if you are focused on winning the match and not the little battles.
What makes you think your own little band of low-GS people will be actually smarter than the trolled ones? In order for your analogy to work, you must first assume that your random PuG team always has people smarter than their random PuG team, which is ofcourse, nothing like in real-life PuG games, is it.
Besides, it doesn't matter how smart you are, when you tickle them, but they one-shot you. That's unfortunately also a reality.
Three nodes 5 players. The high gs team can't be on all the nodes all the time, and at best can manage to have 2 on mid, 1 on home and 1 on enemy. The low gs team can go from node to node and just focus kill, 1 by 1.
Yes skill and team work. Sorry but who lacks that loses pvp regardless of gs.
The exact same mechanic works equally against you. There are no ladder/rank/team queues. Every game is a random PuG game unless you make a premade.
And with random PuGs, "skill and teamwork" is also random. The chances are, for every stupid, high-GS team you meet to fight against, you'll be as much landed with equally stupid, but lower-GS people on your own. When both chances are equal, what becomes the determining factor?
Gear.
It would be an uninformed assumption to state that bis players are usually on premades. I don't even think it is true that most premades are bis. I am at 8 wins of every 10 matches with just my 10k gwf. I only consider myself an average player. The trick is to play domination and not deathmatch. Because it is domination.
Then hats off to you.
Unfortunately, that's you. Instead of asking people "why can't you be like me", try looking at why they are like that.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
so.. i decided to make one too. not a perfect vorpal, but the greater must do it.
shooting the ... out of players on lvl 29. lot of crit rank 7`s to make it more worse, can`t imagine what rank 10`s will do ;p
and the perfect with that.
6k crits are no exception, from a safe range.
guess perfect with 10`s comes closes to oneshot.
it`s a hunter, can`t say i`m realy skilled.
noticed one thing that should be changed, that is after death the encounter bar should always go back to ranged.
my first attacks are never melee, so don`t know what `s the use of making it more work to switch back to ranged after a melee death.
Yeap they should put level requirement for different level of enchants.
No need to, i think its fine for PvE, and taking something away from PvE because of PvP is never a wise decision,
maybe a "stats normalisation" would be a better solution, it could simply disable weapon enchants entirely untill a certain level
and lower the gains from other enchantment, coul be +1 grade for every 10 levels,
so lvl 1 to 9 your enchantements would be grade 1, even if they are grade 6,
ten to twenty, grade 2 and so one.
This would allow everybody to blaze throught pve all they want and still keept things somewhat even during pvp
The problem is you have no matchmaking system. You get a random group some good some bad some leavers. With a good matchmaking system you get closer matches with similar skilled players but you will still have people taking arrows to the knee to get in lower brackets to pawn faces. You balance pvp you get unbalanced pve and that works both ways. So what we need is a separate pvp and pve system top to bottom with an Elo system for matchmaking and all problems solved yes?
With all the complaining about PVP the devs have taken notice. Go to the preview and test them. Post your results, suggestions complaints there. If not I suggest you simply suck it up and either have fun with the system your given or do something else in game you enjoy.
Comments
One and two shotting may be a part of a game, but its a part of a poorly made game. Now, that being said, one-two shotting doesn't really happen unless with significant difference in gear score. It's a more deeper problem than just one-two shotting, and a problem which lies in the grounds being uneven from the start.
You could do all of those things right, and still be stomped hilariously. That's GS.
A human factor in PvP is an unquantifiable factor. Sometimes this factor is so extraordinarily powerful that it borders on superhuman levels, other times it is so ridiculously weak that it shows unbelievable stupidity. However, in most cases it usually shows a certain trend-group which can be loosely but arbitrarily defined. To make long story short, human factor is random but has certain limits.
OTOH, the very basic factor in PvP becomes the mechanical factor. Gear and equipment, these can be quantifiable. These show set numbers that can be directly compared to see which party is more advantageous. Sometimes the human factor can be enough to overcome the disparities in the gear factor, but when this difference goes over a certain level, then the amount of human factor required to overcome the disadvantage needs to border on superhuman levels.
...and this game, in terms of the effect of gear on character performance, is HUGE.
So, no. What breaks the PvP, low-level PvP as well, is uneven teams. Straight and simple.
That may be possible in a 1vs1 scenario. But when it comes to a whole team of "mostly high GS" players, and a whole team of "mostly low GS players", sorry, no chance at all.
Add to that the fact that a team that has all the players with impeccable level of gear/equipment usually turn out to be premades, whereas a PuG team may have one or two good players but usually tends to have at least one or two "gaping holes" in the roster... there is no realistic chance that you can win. Life isn't sports movies. The underdog is the underdog, because he is always "under". Sure, perhaps one or two miracle matches every now and then. But so does winning the lottery.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I believe..without the mulrohand gear, somewhere around lvl 45 my GS was over 7k. Did you hear that? A 7k GS at lvl 45...all from items purchased again via the AH at a cost that was affordable to this lvl 45 character, and through equipping smartly the items I found while questing.
I seen people while doing pre 60 pvp with Murder(my HR), that were wearing gear that was easily 20, sometimes more, levels lower than there current level. These are the people that are complaining about getting killed by "twinks".
If you cant tell the difference between an item that has twice the amount of stats as another item, as well as its close to your level, then you deserve to get roflstomped in PvP..and you will continue to get stomped when you hit 60.
Sorry went off topic there...
As far as equipping these high rank items... The way I figure it...I leveled 4 characters to 60, and earned all the gear those characters are wearing. It is my right to move around gear and enjoy my playtime. Also, the mulrohand gear is so incredibly cheap nowadays anyone after a fiew days of completing pvp dailys would have enough refined AD to purchase nearly all of it. As well as equip it with rank 4-5 enchants.
I laugh at people calling them "twinks" actually. Mulrohand gear and perfects isn't a twink...... In EQ 1, I'd get bored and make a real twink. Lvl 1 monk with 2 Sceptres of Destruction, Fungi Tunic and a Cloak of Flames. Now THAT, was a twink
Be smart...surf the Ah, you'll find great lvl appropriate gear for extremely cheap.
So, tell me, how do I get a Perfect Vorpal and R8 by level 45 on my first char by only doing dailies?
Mulhorands are not an issue, the weapon enchant slot they have is. Same as for R6+ on a lvl 20 char. This could be fixed so easily...doesn't matter anyway, done levelling my new char to 60 so the Vorpal-uberkidz are behind fortunately, its fair game now.
I am having a hard time connecting the points your making. 15.5k gs? You get two shotted? Get out of the way, be unpredictable.
My toons get 1 and 2 shotted occasionally also but not so much that it is a problem and I don't have a single toon over 15k gs. Its because I do my best to not get hit period, much less twice. GF is a different story, GWF Sent can be a different story, but otherwise, if I am getting hit a lot I see it as fail.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Grounds are as even as they can be minus matchmaking: everyone can farm the same items for the same amount of time invested and zen/ad prices are the same for all.
But the human factor being unquantifiable, any point premised on the "human factor" is necessarily subjective. So what you said sounded nice, but really all it demonstrated was that my point and your point are on equal grounds.
Given that you already conceded that the human factor IS a factor, and is a factor that cannot be quantified, the degree to which gear affects performance can't even really be measured because "performance" its self cannot be measured other than in terms of actual wins and losses.
Conclusion arrived at via false (unverifiable) chain of assumptions. See above. You get teams of people who have shelled out a hundred or more dollars for their gear and who expect wins to be handed to them. They are easily trolled (without a word being said) and kited away from nodes, and end up focusing more on killing you than on which nodes are blue or red or contested. Not only is there a chance against a team like this but odds are you will win if you are focused on winning the match and not the little battles.
Three nodes 5 players. The high gs team can't be on all the nodes all the time, and at best can manage to have 2 on mid, 1 on home and 1 on enemy. The low gs team can go from node to node and just focus kill, 1 by 1.
Yes skill and team work. Sorry but who lacks that loses pvp regardless of gs.
It would be an uninformed assumption to state that bis players are usually on premades. I don't even think it is true that most premades are bis.
I am at 8 wins of every 10 matches with just my 10k gwf. I only consider myself an average player. The trick is to play domination and not deathmatch. Because it is domination.
Jugger Conq GF
....
fact that it happens is already too much ;p and that being unpredictable is kind of hard on a flat open playground.
which is 4 out of 6 spots in the 2 arena`s actualy 6, if you want to be able to also contest all nodes instead of hiding behind a pillar.
edit: don`t know why i replied to this
yes whatever ;p
not even sure how long it takes before a circle is realy there, it feels like it takes at least a second before it`s realy active on the ground.
Ay caramba.. that's like pitting a 3rd grader and Muhammad Ali in the same ring, and saying; "In time the kid can train and grow up to be like Ali, so everything's fair."
In terms of matchmaking, it doesn't matter whether it may be possible that a certain contendor may be at a certain level. The only thing matters is whether the initial conditions at the moment prior to the beginning of the match, is equal or not. It doesn't matter whether a pin-weight or a fly-weight fighter may be able to bulk up and eventually become a heavy-weight. The only thing matters is right before the match, are the two contendors equal in the weight category or not. If not? The match doesn't happen.
In here, a match between 5 feather-weights against 5 super-heavies happen all the time. "Uneven grounds".
Not really.
What you are saying is basically an excuse for an unfair situation where someone "might" be able to offset it with human factor. What I am saying is the human part can come later, and let's first even out the quantifiable factors, and then, only after then, we see how the human factor comes into play.
Tell that to all the professional athletes armed to the teeth with prestige-level, custom built sports-wear/equipment makers, please.
What makes you think your own little band of low-GS people will be actually smarter than the trolled ones? In order for your analogy to work, you must first assume that your random PuG team always has people smarter than their random PuG team, which is ofcourse, nothing like in real-life PuG games, is it.
Besides, it doesn't matter how smart you are, when you tickle them, but they one-shot you. That's unfortunately also a reality.
The exact same mechanic works equally against you. There are no ladder/rank/team queues. Every game is a random PuG game unless you make a premade.
And with random PuGs, "skill and teamwork" is also random. The chances are, for every stupid, high-GS team you meet to fight against, you'll be as much landed with equally stupid, but lower-GS people on your own. When both chances are equal, what becomes the determining factor?
Gear.
Then hats off to you.
Unfortunately, that's you. Instead of asking people "why can't you be like me", try looking at why they are like that.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
shooting the ... out of players on lvl 29. lot of crit rank 7`s to make it more worse, can`t imagine what rank 10`s will do ;p
and the perfect with that.
6k crits are no exception, from a safe range.
guess perfect with 10`s comes closes to oneshot.
it`s a hunter, can`t say i`m realy skilled.
noticed one thing that should be changed, that is after death the encounter bar should always go back to ranged.
my first attacks are never melee, so don`t know what `s the use of making it more work to switch back to ranged after a melee death.
No need to, i think its fine for PvE, and taking something away from PvE because of PvP is never a wise decision,
maybe a "stats normalisation" would be a better solution, it could simply disable weapon enchants entirely untill a certain level
and lower the gains from other enchantment, coul be +1 grade for every 10 levels,
so lvl 1 to 9 your enchantements would be grade 1, even if they are grade 6,
ten to twenty, grade 2 and so one.
This would allow everybody to blaze throught pve all they want and still keept things somewhat even during pvp
With all the complaining about PVP the devs have taken notice. Go to the preview and test them. Post your results, suggestions complaints there. If not I suggest you simply suck it up and either have fun with the system your given or do something else in game you enjoy.