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Why the rush to reach max level?
ladymythos
Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 637 Bounty Hunter
After all the years I've played MMORPGs, there's one thing that never, ever fails to impress me or get me depressed, depending on how you see it. Whether the max level is 10 or100, people are always in a hurry to get there. But why? Why do people really want to skip the entire game just to reach the max level? Here's a few points for you:
1. When you reach max level, you have run out of content. This is always true for a fresh game, and even a game that's been out a while suffers a lot. Neverwinter has released two content modules since launch, and whlie they are both fun, they both come down to one thing: Grind the hell out of regular content, so you can grind the hell out of the same dungeons over and over. Is it really worth skipping the whole game just to get to this?
2. No one is impressed by your max level character. Hopefully this only applies to the minority, but I often feel like people want to rush to max level just for bragging rights. And if you think that's just me being paranoid, look at the facts: People have been bragging about "beating" World of Warcraft in a few days by reaching max level, and some actually take a lot of pride in being the first to max level after the level cap is increased. One guy did it in a day or two, by having his guild help him. This isn't even just a WoW-thing, either. When Diablo 3 was released, some guy made a huge effort to be the first in the world to beat it. But how could he enjoy the game, if he just rushed through it?
3. By rushing through the game, you're missing out on a ton of fun stuff. If you've ever played Lord of the Rings Online, did you go to Goblin Town? Many of us did, and many just rushed through the dungeon like it was on fire or something. But if you took your time like some of us, you would have seen some pretty nice stuff there. For instance, there's a wall you won't see if you just rush through, but if you take your time and look around, you'll see a lot of grafitti and drawings by the goblins. And what about the sandcastle in Evendim? In Marvel Heroes, I went to the Taskmaster Institute and found an enemy beating the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of a manequin dressed as Cap America, constantly making silly threats to it. It made me laugh really hard, but you won't see it if you just rush through the dungeon. There are tons of small things like this in all games, even Neverwinter. But again, if you don't look for it, you won't see it. Ever.
4. Achivements. Last I checked, there are a ton of achivements in Neverwinter, but rarely any for just reaching max level. Whatever happened to the other ones? People buy games they don't even like for XB360 and PS3 just for cheap achivements, so achivements do mean a lot to a lot of people. So why ignore them all in an MMO? Reaching lvl 60 doesn't impress me at all. Getting all achivements does. I don't care if you have 20k+ gear score, or single-handedly cleared Castle Never. Finding every single orb without a guide does.
5. Foundry. Going back to the first point, there's the lack of content. Or is it? The foundry scales to your level, so you can do it whenever you want (last I checked, at least.) But people often just rush to max level, then complain about the lack of content. So why not do some foundry-stuff instead? Or, *gasp*, make your own? But nope, people either ignore it entirely, or play the ones that let you gain as much XP as possible in as short time as possible, just to reach max level. But why?
1. When you reach max level, you have run out of content. This is always true for a fresh game, and even a game that's been out a while suffers a lot. Neverwinter has released two content modules since launch, and whlie they are both fun, they both come down to one thing: Grind the hell out of regular content, so you can grind the hell out of the same dungeons over and over. Is it really worth skipping the whole game just to get to this?
2. No one is impressed by your max level character. Hopefully this only applies to the minority, but I often feel like people want to rush to max level just for bragging rights. And if you think that's just me being paranoid, look at the facts: People have been bragging about "beating" World of Warcraft in a few days by reaching max level, and some actually take a lot of pride in being the first to max level after the level cap is increased. One guy did it in a day or two, by having his guild help him. This isn't even just a WoW-thing, either. When Diablo 3 was released, some guy made a huge effort to be the first in the world to beat it. But how could he enjoy the game, if he just rushed through it?
3. By rushing through the game, you're missing out on a ton of fun stuff. If you've ever played Lord of the Rings Online, did you go to Goblin Town? Many of us did, and many just rushed through the dungeon like it was on fire or something. But if you took your time like some of us, you would have seen some pretty nice stuff there. For instance, there's a wall you won't see if you just rush through, but if you take your time and look around, you'll see a lot of grafitti and drawings by the goblins. And what about the sandcastle in Evendim? In Marvel Heroes, I went to the Taskmaster Institute and found an enemy beating the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of a manequin dressed as Cap America, constantly making silly threats to it. It made me laugh really hard, but you won't see it if you just rush through the dungeon. There are tons of small things like this in all games, even Neverwinter. But again, if you don't look for it, you won't see it. Ever.
4. Achivements. Last I checked, there are a ton of achivements in Neverwinter, but rarely any for just reaching max level. Whatever happened to the other ones? People buy games they don't even like for XB360 and PS3 just for cheap achivements, so achivements do mean a lot to a lot of people. So why ignore them all in an MMO? Reaching lvl 60 doesn't impress me at all. Getting all achivements does. I don't care if you have 20k+ gear score, or single-handedly cleared Castle Never. Finding every single orb without a guide does.
5. Foundry. Going back to the first point, there's the lack of content. Or is it? The foundry scales to your level, so you can do it whenever you want (last I checked, at least.) But people often just rush to max level, then complain about the lack of content. So why not do some foundry-stuff instead? Or, *gasp*, make your own? But nope, people either ignore it entirely, or play the ones that let you gain as much XP as possible in as short time as possible, just to reach max level. But why?
Post edited by ladymythos on
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Everyone after that has more or less sped past content before I ever got a chance to see it, just coz: praying for coins, yo.
You have to go out of your way not to hit level cap. Abandon quests instead of turning them in, leave pvp before matches end, never invoke or tradeskill, etc. Not reaching 60 however, or "taking your time" is basically just extending the tutorial. Thats all the leveling game is, a tutorial before the game begins.
2. Lvl 60 here, on it's own doesn't mean much as there is a gigantic divide between a fresh 60, and someone geared after grinding all their set gear, enchants, artifacts and other items. Look at a lot of the complaints in PvP, which, from my point of view are generated by the lack of a ladder, and "newer" or under geared players running up against teams of moderately to heavily geared groups. I've never seen anyone here bragging that they hit lvl 60, it's generally more of a "Whew, glad that's over, now I can really start playing". It takes most players longer to go from fresh 60 to mid-high end 60 and it does to lvl to 60.
3. Most players have multiple characters. Plenty of people take their time the first or second run through, but the more often you level a character, the faster most people generally want it to happen. Even though I took my time with my TR (who I quit playing in the high 50's) and then again with my CW, I still run into things when leveling a new character that I might have missed, and those little things make leveling a new character not feel like such a chore.
4. Achievements don't mean much to some people, especially older players like myself. There might be a couple I actually want, for the title, but other than that they don't hold my allure.
5. The Foundry is kind of moot in terms of people "rushing to reach 60" because it's always available. Like you said, it scales with your level, so a lot of people pass on it initially because it isn't helping them level as much, or it isn't helping them gear as much (when they hit 60). Give it time though. With the original Neverwinter Nights (and it's sequel), the community made content was what gave the title it's staying power. I played the original title for almost 10 years, and only played through the main game and it's expansions once or twice each. The community generated content, once the community had time to play with it and learn the tool set, had some amazing things available. Now, I happen to think the toolset they had was more powerful, they had more ability to create new things (I'm assuming), because it wasn't tied to an MMO, so the community fleshed out the rest of the missing races, classes, powers etc. all based on the D&D rule set. Still, I have hope that the Foundry content will start to catch on eventually.
Au contraire -- in every MMO I've ever played, the game actually begins at the level cap. I think that's especially true of Neverwinter, where getting to the level cap gives access to a bunch of content that was simply not available prior to level 60.
Whether this is true or not is irrelevant to me: I don't play MMOs to care what other people think of my character
This is arguably true of MMOs like LOTRO, WoW, EQ2, SWTOR, & so on. I don't think it's true of Neverwinter -- yet -- because you have basically one quest path to follow, & there's not a lot of places beyond that to explore. For myself, having just hit level 60 yesterday, the only things I've not done are some of the very high-end quest lines, skirmishes, & dungeons ... all of which I can still do, & in fact am still doing, simply because I'm a completionist.
Again, I haven't ignored any achievements at all, & beyond that ... I must point out that a lot of the achievements are not attainable until the level cap, because the content from which you obtain them isn't attainable until then. So, IOW, you can't be impressed by someone who has "all the achievements" UNLESS they're at the level cap.
It's a cool feature, & it's important to other players, & if I get bored with the available official content -- not likely any time soon, but possible -- I'll have the Foundry to fall back upon ... but until then, I've almost no interest in it, so it's irrelevant to me.
In closing, while I can see your point-of-view, remember that it's only YOUR POV, not necessarily shared by others, & in some cases I don't think it's applicable to this particular game. Still, thanks for sharing
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
Two grind areas? If you thought dungeons, outside CN, they are all harder version of the same dungeons you could access before level cap. Likely you blew through so fast you didn't notice them.
Playing the game lightly I hit 60 in less than a week. I was shocked since in the past I remember playing an MMO that it took me months to reach the end. In that game I felt I truly accomplished something at reaching that point. In this game you can hit it in flash and still not know much about it.
I agree with the OP so it is safe to say he/she is not alone in this view and it is shared by others.
Is that content accessible before level 60? No. Does that fact disprove the OP's statement? Yes.
You can argue all you want about how *much* additional content is available at 60. You can not argue, as the OP did, that reaching 60 means you "run out of content," & I can't think of a single MMO of which that's actually true.
Awesome. I said her point was *not necessarily shared by others,* which means some people DO share it, & others -- like me -- do not.
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
I almost always "wander off path" in MMOs and explore "the world."
It's kind of sad in this game that there's really not a lot "out there."
Few, if any "easter eggs" or hidden caches, etc.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
I've played a couple of absolute grind heavy hellish MMO's to level in and personally I much prefer Neverwinter where level 1 thru 59 is a nice and easy fairly fast tutorial and level 60 to me again personally is where the real fun begins .
Exactly: that's why, while I sympathize with the OP, I don't think you can really make the argument she's making. If this game had a REAL "open world" feel like EQ2, DAoC, WoW, etc., then I'd pretty much agree with the OP entirely, but it's not that way. It's more of Diablo 3, with 4E D&D rules.
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
How is grinding a whole game world less fun then grinding the same two areas over and over again? I really just don't understand this idea of "fun" people are talking about.
But here's the thing: your failure to understand is meaningless, particularly to those people who see it differently.
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
In this game lvl 60 is no accomplishment, it's just a gate that allows you to start doing the things you will need to do to really build your character up.
However, not that I would spend all my time in them, but some of the foundry quests are very humerous.
LOTRO, may be the sterling example (especially pre gap of rohan) of combining a existing story line with vast amounts of content and story lines, (Ive done the entire goblin town, including finding all of bilbos buttons thank ye!) there is so much there, you almost have to do it with multiple toons to get it all, but again, the actual amount of vast open world space in LOTRO is about 1-200 times that of neverwinter and pre -nerfing the storyline quests, there were actually mandatory group quests along the way where it was very diffictult to get done. This mostly all changed at the gap of rohan patch, WB decided to nerf this, so you could choose either group or single content, you could basically blow through everything in 7 days to max level and still get all the benefits of the doing the story lines. But that being said, you could actually just do nothing but explore every story line, every nook and cranny for a year without doing end game content. Its very fun and rewarding if you want to tie it in to the books.
Neverwinter is nothing like that, the only real fun I get is gearing up to the dungeon delves here, its basically a holder MMO for me, until I return to Norrath this summer it appears (Back to a more friendly confine of the holy trinity version of a game (I WANNA be a real healer again!)
Silverkelt
1. Max level unlocks content? Sure it does, but it also blocks you from the entire rest of the game, as you've outleveled it. Besides, you will reach the new content sooner or later anyway, and for that matter, who's to say that content is any better than the entire rest of the game? Not to mention, as I said, there are very little content at the end of the rainbow. That's why you will always see people complaining that they reached max level and don't have anything to do. Every single time a new MMO is released. Every. Single. Time. People never learn. Sure the end-game might seem interesting at first, but after doing the same thing for a week? For a month? MMOs used to be something you had to commit to, if you wanted to be high level. It used to take months to reach max level, if you even did. Now it takes a week or two. Where's the fun in that?
2. How can you not reach max level quickly? Well, you can stop chasing quests like your life depend on it, for one. I've played a lot of MMOs over the years, and stuck with Lord of the Rings Online around two whole years. Even so, not one of my characters reached max level. I got to lvl 63 on my highest one, and lvl 59 on another. (max level was 65 at the time.) That was close, but still not max level. And again, that was after two whole years. In recent games, you reach max level after a week or two. So again, where's the fun in that?
3. Endgame gives you better gear? What do you need that gear`for anyway? To grind the same dungeon again? To kill the same enemies again a bit faster? I prefer taking my time, exploring, crafting, and basically just having some fun. I did reach max level in this game, but it got boring quickly. I unlocked MC last night, but have yet to even bother try it. I know that once I run through it once or twice, that's yet another thing I won't bother to do again. I'm sick of the old dungeons anyway, so I can't imagine not being sick of MC and VT quickly too.
4. Can't group with friends on low levels? That's BS. If you really, really wanted to group with friends, why not create characters you only play together? Why not have alts at low levels you can play together? Rushing to max level and suggesting others do the same so they can play with you is pretty selfish, in my opinion. That's why I always keep characters spread out in levels. Sure it's a bit boring to do the same, old quests all over again, but if it means I can do them with friends, it's worth every second of it. To me, hanging out with friends is a lot more important than what we do.
Of course, I'm not saying it's wrong to rush to max level. Please don't think I do. I'm just asking why so many people do it. Personally, I wish we could get an entirely new XP-curve, where it takes longer to get, and where we loose XP if we die. That way max level could be an accomplishment, not a boring few days of rushing through the levels to reach endgame that isn't there.
2. No one is.
3. I've seen all there is that needs to be seen on my first playthrough of the game. I really enjoyed the journey of finding the many secrets the game had to offer. But will I do each and everyone of them, after each and every playthrough? Absolutely not. I tried searching for hidden secrets, vanishing walls, secret lairs, chests that have a higher chance of dropping blue items, Scrying Stones (which was an enjoyable experience without the guide) and a lot more. There are perks to playing a build that is meant to explore dangerous places. So what merit is there exactly in repeating the same things over and over again that lost its flavor after you found them the first time? Now that I have found whatever secret there is that can be uncovered in this game, I set my sights to a different goal which is something beyond level 60; and that is giving form to my ideas and making theoretical builds a reality. So I'll rush to 60 when I get time to do so, because my goal is to see the perfected, sculpted forms of my ideas. I'm not so sure what's wrong with doing what WE want. I am more perplexed as to why you have to be so hostile against it.
4. Why ignore achievements in an MMO? Because some people don't think they're worth it. Simple as that. Some people may think that buying a game you don't like for cheap achievements is worth it, but conversely some people will think it's stupid. It's true that there are a ton of achievements in Neverwinter, but in reality not even half of those "achievements" aren't challenging. I'll get something if it's worth the challenge, like the PVP achievements and the Scrying. Scrying was fun when I didn't know where the orbs were placed. But for the PVE achievements, none of those aren't remotely challenging. Beating a quest zone, beating dungeons, performing this skirmish and killing this many monsters... seriously. Where exactly is the achievement in those petty things? Anyone can do that. Those are definitely LESS impressive than beating a dungeon with only 3 people or speed running dungeons.
5. I'd play the Foundry if they were challenging and/or rewarding. But so far, they are neither. I have a few Foundry quests I loved for their story, creativity, and the exploration, but these quests are a rarity. I LOVE the idea of the Foundry and think that Neverwinter can only become greater thanks to its system. But the way the devs are limiting their players to playing with their sandbox is just wrong.
TL;DR: Why rush to level 60 - Because there are things we get past level 60 that we don't get in pre-60.
Hence the part that I have both made bold and underlined in that quote -
I fail to see what is 'fun' about taking days or weeks to increase by one level killing the same mobs for days at a time but if that's what floats your boat then cool .
You do that, simply by leveling. Getting to max level doesn't change that reality. I'm not sure I fully understand your point here, though. After all, nothing stops a level 60 player from doing normal Cloak Tower ... I see level 60s regularly offering to help lower level players through dungeons, so it would seem that getting to 60 does not "block" you from the rest of the game.
FWIW, I've been MMOing since the early days of Ultima Online, way back in 1997. Yes, I've seen that complaint hundreds of times on message boards. I can count, on one finger, the number of times I've taken that complaint or the complainer seriously, because every single time the complainer is simply wrong. This gets proved, for example, when you begin asking them questions & discovering all of the aspects of the game they haven't even touched -- like, the people who get to level 92 in EQ2, but who have never even touched the Crafting or Housing aspects, have never raided, have never gone Collectible hunting, & so on.
Simply put, I've never seen a MMO of which that "I've got nothing left to do" complaint has been valid. So, it doesn't matter how often people make that complaint; in most cases, they're simply looking for attention on forums
But you're forgetting a very key point: LOTRO & Neverwinter are not at all the same game. LOTRO is a true, "open world" MMO; Neverwinter is like playing Diablo 3 with 4E D&D rules. There's not one good reason to rush to the level cap in LOTRO; there's no good reason not to in Neverwinter, because other than questing & the very limited crafting system, there is not a whole lot you can do in this game. Like you, I can spend hours in LOTRO doing nothing at all; if I tried to do that in Neverwinter, I'd be better off uninstalling entirely & going back to a *real* MMO.
& FWIW: my highest level LOTRO character, after all this time playing it, is only 61st level; I've never gotten to the level cap. I never came near the level cap in EQ1. It took me close to 6 years to get to level 90 in EQ2 & WoW, & now the level caps in both games are going up again. But in all of those games, there is a LOT more to see & do than there is in Neverwinter, & as a result I think the comparison is inaccurate for purposes of this discussion.
The same reason you "need" any gear you get while you're leveling up. I'm not sure I understand your point, here.
This doesn't work for me, for two reasons.
A. I only have 2 character slots, & am loath to pay for more any time soon -- especially when the thought of leveling up a third character through this on-rails quest line fills me with nerd rage, & ...
B. There is only a relative handful of characters in my guild who are below 60. That's the main reason I've been "racing" to 60, so that I can actually go play with my guildies ... who, at level 60, are online every day, banging on level 60 dungeons & other content, having a grand time.
Thank you, again, for sharing your thoughts
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
Did Neverdeath with TR#5 yesterday to get her bag. She reached 60 from professions and invoking after being parked in Protector's Enclave, the poor neglected thing. Not a lick of trouble completing the area by bouncing between questgivers the way I tell people to do. You cannot be overlevelled to accept a quest, only to struggle to find it if you don't know who to speak to in what order.
Neverwinter Census 2017
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I tend to savor a game up to a point. I do like finding all of the little areas and details. But once you've leveled a few toons to 60 you really don't want to take your time with the next one, unless there is some kind of large scale expansion of lower level content.
I do think what hurts NWO is that "lack" of endgame content. To be honest though, NWO relative to other games has a good amount of end game content especially given how new it is. Sharandar, Dread Ring, Gauntlegrym,and Castle Never are pretty epic if somewhat repetitive. At level 60 the "new" levels become gearscore. Like 10k-17k might as well be levels 60-67.
BUT real new levels actually give you something to aspire to. Making them really really hard and requiring beating some insane boss to progress to the next level would be awesome.
What would also help is tying gear to achievements. Certain gear should only reliably spawn in certain boss-chests, and you should need to beat that boss to be able to wear that gear. Likewise you should need to have beaten certain bosses to move on to even be able to enter more advanced areas. That would allow for actual progress through endgame rather than just spamming all of it constantly. It would also fill up q's because there would always be x amount of people who need y tag in order to advance to z area.
So why fly through the game to get to 60? Because endgame play is the whole point. It is more challenging, more rewarding, it actually requires a group, and it is just more fun. The only thing it lacks is the sense of progress you get while leveling.
Jugger Conq GF
....
There are many things that would be nice in this game. This isn't even on the list at this point. There is needs to be significant sideways growth before this happens.
Also for those that enjoy endgame max level play adding levels won't add anything to the game like you think it will. It will just lengthen the process they have to go thru before they can enjoy the game.
So the whole thing would be shaped more like a triangle than a straight vertical line. The ease of leveling kind of kills lateral expansion though. Content is already easily outleveled, more lower level content would exacerbate that. You can just barely do all of the low level content as it is now, without leveling past it. The game is way too easy.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Remember I'm one of those that looks at leveling as something that is in the way of my having fun and tries to get it done as fast as possible.
I usually take my time and enjoy the game as Im leveling.
Leveling is not hard in this game, you are going to level up quickly no matter what you do. The only way to slow down your speed to 60 is to limit your actual play time.
I have 8 level 60 characters. All but one of them went through the regular campaign to get there, (last went to 50, then leveled to 60 via invoking and leadership). While I enjoyed the storyline and content the first 3 or so times I did it, afterward it just became a chore. I want to realize certain concepts I have - and it is difficult to do so before I have many of the key powers/feats/equipment that I feel are necessary in order to do so. I also like being at max level because I can invest in my character's appearance without having to worry about said gear becoming obsolete...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
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