and removing the Temp. HP that Unstoppable provides GWF's.
A thousand times no.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
As long as I get hit for 8-16K or so by GWF encounters, while I hit for maybe half that on them cause of huge DR on worse geared GWF, as long as for me stacking a meager 30K HP means I sacrifice a lot of ArP and crit, while worse geared GWF ends up with 38K HP and better ArP, better crit, better DR...
As long as all I have are 3 dodges and then jump around the pillars for stamina and cooldowns, while GWF can unstoppable after each of my encounter rotations... has more HP, more DR, and hits harder (lol...)
... I cannot see how moving DG or even removing temp HP will "fix" the class.
It's either we accept that GWF is the supreme god in the rockpaperscissors lameness, or do something like:
For now, there's nothing but accept things as they are. I might try to kill the GWF on my point once, if I barely scratch him and he takedowns me for 12K, then it's time somebody else takes care of him, and I'll be there to shoot an Ice Knife in his butt when he's prone.
pers ever think GWF is paper to your rock? how about the perma stealth TR that can tag you with some bile keep invis and you bleed to death. I know you miss being THE ultimate class for pvp and pve and everything else all in one but come on leave the GWF alone, they are finally in a good place for damage and survivability.
pers ever think GWF is paper to your rock? how about the perma stealth TR that can tag you with some bile keep invis and you bleed to death. I know you miss being THE ultimate class for pvp and pve and everything else all in one but come on leave the GWF alone, they are finally in a good place for damage and survivability.
Excuse the uneducated here..
Pers, Your 100% right. Ive been playing a friends CW in pvp (you know who im talking about) to test out the class and it really is just dumb being on the other end of that.
The GWF right now cant fit into a rock paper scissor analogy because its not either, its the dynomite that blows up all the rock, paper and scissors combined.
I agree the DPS on Sentinels needs to be toned down OR the tankiness does, the suggestio nto make determination gain based upon PERCENTAGE of HP lost will help balance the class alot I think.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
pers ever think GWF is paper to your rock? how about the perma stealth TR that can tag you with some bile keep invis and you bleed to death. I know you miss being THE ultimate class for pvp and pve and everything else all in one but come on leave the GWF alone, they are finally in a good place for damage and survivability.
I'm the guy that actually told the PvP dev when he said that Deep Gash needs "fixing" that GWF damage depends on it and it makes them viable so damage should remain the same for PvE. So I'd say I'm not one of the "nerf GWF" guys, and I'll never be.
But lets be real about the PvP GWF a bit. Cause when people bring good arguments, all I see is "L2P" (lol) and "rockpaperscissors".
Same goes for perma TRs, there's no question about it.
TLDR:
This is an MMO with a PvP part, which will grow up in significance and mature soon. In MMOs, balance is something like this:
- you tanky, but your damage is low
- you heal, damage is low
- you DPS, but you're squishy
- you hybrid and do some or all of these things, but neither in an ideal way
As of now, GWFs are EXTREMELY tanky and pretty much up there with the best damage dealers for PvP.
You really think this is right? Well, then there's nothing else I can say.
Pers, Your 100% right. Ive been playing a friends CW in pvp (you know who im talking about) to test out the class and it really is just dumb being on the other end of that.
The GWF right now cant fit into a rock paper scissor analogy because its not either, its the dynomite that blows up all the rock, paper and scissors combined.
I agree the DPS on Sentinels needs to be toned down OR the tankiness does, the suggestio nto make determination gain based upon PERCENTAGE of HP lost will help balance the class alot I think.
People need to understand that I have a few GWF friends, like you, and I really, REALLY want that you guys continue to enjoy this game and feel right about the class. There's no need IMO to nerf the class.
All there is needed is that some other classes are brought up to par, that's all.
Also it should be said that the CW ayroux played is specced and really geared for PvP, and belongs to one of the best CWs in the community. I hope this preemptively puts a stop to replies such as "you played 10KGS PvE CW in PvP and got owned".
pers ever think GWF is paper to your rock? how about the perma stealth TR that can tag you with some bile keep invis and you bleed to death. I know you miss being THE ultimate class for pvp and pve and everything else all in one but come on leave the GWF alone, they are finally in a good place for damage and survivability.
The Problem is not GWFS as a whole. I have no problem with a Destroyer being able to put out that sort of damage.
I Have a problem with IV Sentinel GWFS who have No downside to their class whatsoever. At the present moment in time, they have the best surviviability, and the best burst capability against All classes. Executioner Rogues who are a bucketload squishier cannot even meet anywhere near the same amount of consistent high crits that a IV Sent can. Between Trample the Fallen, Mark and Threatening Rush, and Unstoppable. There is Little to No downside to playing a IV Sent.
Please don't sit there and try and claim it is in a great spot. It's broken, You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
As long as I get hit for 8-16K or so by GWF encounters, while I hit for maybe half that on them cause of huge DR on worse geared GWF, as long as for me stacking a meager 30K HP means I sacrifice a lot of ArP and crit, while worse geared GWF ends up with 38K HP and better ArP, better crit, better DR...
As long as all I have are 3 dodges and then jump around the pillars for stamina and cooldowns, while GWF can unstoppable after each of my encounter rotations... has more HP, more DR, and hits harder (lol...)
... I cannot see how moving DG or even removing temp HP will "fix" the class.
It's either we accept that GWF is the supreme god in the rockpaperscissors lameness, or do something like:
For now, there's nothing but accept things as they are. I might try to kill the GWF on my point once, if I barely scratch him and he takedowns me for 12K, then it's time somebody else takes care of him, and I'll be there to shoot an Ice Knife in his butt when he's prone.
Right now it's pretty nasty against a GWF as a CW. It would really, really help if CWs had ArP built into one of their stats as well. Wisdom, for instance, is pretty pointless now that there's basically no CC in PVP. It could go there, perhaps, or with another stat.
Right now it's pretty nasty against a GWF as a CW. It would really, really help if CWs had ArP built into one of their stats as well. Wisdom, for instance, is pretty pointless now that there's basically no CC in PVP. It could go there, perhaps, or with another stat.
Trace I think doing that would break Debuff build Cws though. As we can stack our Debuffs pretty high as is now..
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Right now it's pretty nasty against a GWF as a CW. It would really, really help if CWs had ArP built into one of their stats as well. Wisdom, for instance, is pretty pointless now that there's basically no CC in PVP. It could go there, perhaps, or with another stat.
Honestly Id much rather see CWs get some defensive capability, maybe longer range on teleport or something. The damage output is pretty good IMO on a CW. Alot of good burst ability, good damage over time ability, good debuffs, I dont think more ARP is honestly needed.
I mean CWs almost needs some "feat" LIKE the HR ability that lets you dodge the next attack or something... Just something to help mitigate the burst damage.
I havnt played CW on the PTR yet so I am excited to give that a try, hopefully someday soon! But I do feel like the CW I have access to has good capability to atleast stand a chance against all classes (even TRs) but no way Sent GWFs.
Honestly Id much rather see CWs get some defensive capability, maybe longer range on teleport or something. The damage output is pretty good IMO on a CW. Alot of good burst ability, good damage over time ability, good debuffs, I dont think more ARP is honestly needed.
Yeah CW damage is fine, only very tanky chars survive perfect combo rotation (which is how it should be...), squishier ones go directly in soulforge.
I proposed Invisibility and Mirror Images since these spells are pretty much in both D&D and the game. That other MMO had AoE stuns like Ring of Frost and Frost Nova, or slows like Cone of Cold, and immunities such as Ice Block, also we got later on some heals with Cauterize (pretty much a soulforge without the enchant) and Alter Time. All in all, these spells kept mages competitive even against huge bursting rogues or warriors.
Basically not the class won the duels, but your skills and gear and ability use.
IMO this is how it should work. You shouldn't start at a disadvantage.
One BIG problem for making this work in Neverwinter is that our action bars are small. If you slot an escape/immunity spell, no longer enough CC or DPS, at least as a CW. Other MMOs have big bars, and it's up to you to adapt on the spot, which is quite nice.
Can we differ between GWF - specs? I got the feeling, that my destroyer will be affected way more by said changes than a sentinel and i am highly concerned about it. The devs should just edit the sentinel feats/skills and leave all other builds alone. The trample the fallen feat should be at the end of the destroyer spec, not at the beginning of the sentinel spec.
So please, if you start "suggesting" ideas, make sure you can see it from every spec's perspective instead of just one.
Can we differ between GWF - specs? I got the feeling, that my destroyer will be affected way more by said changes than a sentinel and i am highly concerned about it. The devs should just edit the sentinel feats/skills and leave all other builds alone. The trample the fallen feat should be at the end of the destroyer spec, not at the beginning of the sentinel spec.
So please, if you start "suggesting" ideas, make sure you can see it from every spec's perspective instead of just one.
Some suggestions have been made.
For example:
- determination built over a % of health lost instead of the x amount of HP lost that we have now. Would, for sure, make unstoppable the same on DPS builds or high con-HP builds
- move ArP to STR and DoT resistance to CON. Would make the CON-tank builds a bit more tanky, and the STR DPS builds would have a clear advantage in damage, in both PvE and PvP. Would avoid high CON PvP builds getting both the best survivability and the best boost in damage (ArP is, hands down, the best offensive PvP stat)
These 2 changes alone would help mark the difference between DPS builds and tank builds, and would also make DPS builds actually more valuable for PvP.
This said, tenacity is good for DPS builds. Increases your survivability a lot, considering you guys usually don't have unstoppable recovery, and do not stack regeneration but rather deflection and defense.
Both tenacity and healing depression make tank builds less tanky (still tankier thanks to the last 2 sentinel feats), and DPS builds more viable.
With the 2 above changes, i think it would be perfect.
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
I feel that there needs to be a change to Master at Arms at the very least. 10% deflect chance and 5 AC from a single feat that buffs an already powerful feature granting crit chance is IMO one of the main problems.
Like ayroux and myself were posting some pages back, a Sentinel doesn't just have significantly higher DR than a GF, it also has much higher Deflect as well, with the overall additional DR from deflect likely exceeding that of TRs. That is before Unstoppable too.
I'd also like to see Battle Trample and Improved Reaction swap places on the paragon feat trees.
Such changes would not negatively impact other trees besides the Sentinel.
I feel that there needs to be a change to Master at Arms at the very least. 10% deflect chance and 5 AC from a single feat that buffs an already powerful feature granting crit chance is IMO one of the main problems.
Like ayroux and myself were posting some pages back, a Sentinel doesn't just have significantly higher DR than a GF, it also has much higher Deflect as well, with the overall additional DR from deflect likely exceeding that of TRs. That is before Unstoppable too.
I'd also like to see Battle Trample and Improved Reaction swap places on the paragon feat trees.
Such changes would not negatively impact other trees besides the Sentinel.
I agree.
For starters to the person above worried aobut their Dest spec
1) Unstoppable as a PERCENTAGE of HP lost buffs non Sent specs and nerfs Sent Specs slighty. Right now a Sent needs to take about 8-9% HP lost to go unstoppable, a Dest needs to take 20-30%+ HP lost to pop unstoppable. Making it a % of HP lost (say 15-20%) would be IMO a very attractive change.
2) Threatening Rush should have a CD of about 3 seconds to prevent spamming.
DONE. Now Sent Tankiness is on par with GFs( they need to take more % of HP lost to gain unstoppable). And also Sents can be more easily kited in pvp because of the threat rush CD.
What all of this will do is make more Sents run Bravery again to make up for the unstoppable change, as well as the threat rush change so they get the run speed to catch up, so now with Trample the Fallen gone to compensate for lack of tankiness AND they will need bravery to avoid being kited around thats 15% Less damage, PLUS the threat rush CD makes it MUCH harder to get a marked IBS on someone so potentially a 30% decrease in damage.
That is an easy way to fix all of this....
Now sents are easier to kite, easier to kill and deal less damage than before. Now trample is a fair tradeoff since youll be much more squishy and even easier to kite to deal an axtra 15% dmg, I think thats fair.
Now when I can get at best 10-11k IBS crits on PTR with Tenacity hurting my damage, itll be more like 7-8k crits which is still not bad, but thats what you get for being ultra tanky.
Overkill? Only in light of the Perma TR which would then be the king of pvp again. Which ive stated before, all you need to do to hurt that build is remove the 30% run speed bonus feat they get in steath and make it do something else OR much less (like down to 15%).
The run speed is what enables them to dodge really well, remove that and youll be golden. Dodge meaning movement to get outside of striking range and outside the distance where people can see you.
When I run bravery on my Sent my run speed is more on par with a TR and they cant escape as well, so remove OR nerf the run speed bonus and itll fix the perma pvp issue alot...
Even dropping it from 30% run speed to 15% would make it alot more of a tradeoff and require alot more skill to play a perma.
Now you have ultra tanky lower damage Sents and ultra tanky GFs as the hardest to kill lowest dps classes.
Other GWFs are slitghly MORE takny in pvp due to unstoppable change.
Permas are not as good due to run speed nerf.
Squishy classes have the benefit of tenacity to prevent 1 combo-ing. All of this seems fair...
For starters to the person above worried aobut their Dest spec
1) Unstoppable as a PERCENTAGE of HP lost buffs non Sent specs and nerfs Sent Specs slighty. Right now a Sent needs to take about 8-9% HP lost to go unstoppable, a Dest needs to take 20-30%+ HP lost to pop unstoppable. Making it a % of HP lost (say 15-20%) would be IMO a very attractive change.
2) Threatening Rush should have a CD of about 3 seconds to prevent spamming.
DONE. Now Sent Tankiness is on par with GFs( they need to take more % of HP lost to gain unstoppable). And also Sents can be more easily kited in pvp because of the threat rush CD.
What all of this will do is make more Sents run Bravery again to make up for the unstoppable change, as well as the threat rush change so they get the run speed to catch up, so now with Trample the Fallen gone to compensate for lack of tankiness AND they will need bravery to avoid being kited around thats 15% Less damage, PLUS the threat rush CD makes it MUCH harder to get a marked IBS on someone so potentially a 30% decrease in damage.
That is an easy way to fix all of this....
Now sents are easier to kite, easier to kill and deal less damage than before. Now trample is a fair tradeoff since youll be much more squishy and even easier to kite to deal an axtra 15% dmg, I think thats fair.
Now when I can get at best 10-11k IBS crits on PTR with Tenacity hurting my damage, itll be more like 7-8k crits which is still not bad, but thats what you get for being ultra tanky.
Overkill? Only in light of the Perma TR which would then be the king of pvp again. Which ive stated before, all you need to do to hurt that build is remove the 30% run speed bonus feat they get in steath and make it do something else OR much less (like down to 15%).
The run speed is what enables them to dodge really well, remove that and youll be golden. Dodge meaning movement to get outside of striking range and outside the distance where people can see you.
When I run bravery on my Sent my run speed is more on par with a TR and they cant escape as well, so remove OR nerf the run speed bonus and itll fix the perma pvp issue alot...
Even dropping it from 30% run speed to 15% would make it alot more of a tradeoff and require alot more skill to play a perma.
Now you have ultra tanky lower damage Sents and ultra tanky GFs as the hardest to kill lowest dps classes.
Other GWFs are slitghly MORE takny in pvp due to unstoppable change.
Permas are not as good due to run speed nerf.
Squishy classes have the benefit of tenacity to prevent 1 combo-ing. All of this seems fair...
3 seconds on the skill i that i constantly need to have up to get a dmg boost? I also use it as an opener ~threatening rush, takedown, frontline surge, threatening rush again (obviously) and indomitable battle strike. Sounds like a really bad idea. 1 second maybe, but 3? It would render entire combos and feats as pretty much useless.
Threatening rush has to be ready at all times, since marks (too) easily wear off.
as it is as gwf there tr perma stealth builds u can not even hit unless they have ITC up and they nerf your rejen from stealth good tr can beat a good gwf
Hr the Nature builds on good end game hr at min are insanity they can easy beat GWF play right
GF and Gwf are about same at min they can beat any class played right but can also get beat by the above 2 class's
then Down here we have Dc great support at min nice for any team
Then we have Cw any one can kill CW even a Dc so way I see it at min issue is cw is to weak in pvp and its to powerful in pve so its class that needs to change first it needs fixing first (we could just ban all Cw from pvp like they did to all other class's pre mode 2 in pve)
3 seconds on the skill i that i constantly need to have up to get a dmg boost? I also use it as an opener ~threatening rush, takedown, frontline surge, threatening rush again (obviously) and indomitable battle strike. Sounds like a really bad idea. 1 second maybe, but 3? It would render entire combos and feats as pretty much useless.
Threatening rush has to be ready at all times, since marks (too) easily wear off.
Thats exactly the point, Sentinels deal way too much damage, now you have to actually time WHEN To threat rush to get your damage boost.
It doesnt make ANY combos useless at all, it makes it require much more skill to play. YOu just highlighted the major issue with the GWF.
Threatrush takedown (btw trampl 15% + mark 8% + feat 15% = 38% more damage now) frontline (same applies) and IBS (same)
38% dmg boost and THEN you have SotS procs, which can reduce defense by 45% your not a CW dude, thats massive and overkill for dmg boosts/debuffs.
It needs to require timing and BTW your combo would still work.
TR -> Takedown -> frontline (been about 3 seconds) -> TS again -> IBS. Nothing has changed. Just TS wisely, BTW they also need to increase the range a tad for this since alot of time the skill bugs out and doesnt let you connect with people, so that would fix that.
as it is as gwf there tr perma stealth builds u can not even hit unless they have ITC up and they nerf your rejen from stealth good tr can beat a good gwf
Hr the Nature builds on good end game hr at min are insanity they can easy beat GWF play right
GF and Gwf are about same at min they can beat any class played right but can also get beat by the above 2 class's
then Down here we have Dc great support at min nice for any team
Then we have Cw any one can kill CW even a Dc so way I see it at min issue is cw is to weak in pvp and its to powerful in pve so its class that needs to change first it needs fixing first (we could just ban all Cw from pvp like they did to all other class's pre mode 2 in pve)
A perma and GWF are about on the same level. I 1v1d Jerkface (Enemy Team) the other day and beat him like 10 of 12 times or something. This is on the PTR with nerfed regen etc.
HR - cant do anything versus good GWF
GF - cant beat GWF can only tie it at best.
DC - GWF can kill DCs (havnt tested on PTR but did this live many times)
I notice you dont say CWs because GWFs destroy CWs.
The fact of the matter is this:
Who is the MOST tanky in order:
1) GWF
2) GF
3) DC
4) HR/TR
5) CW
Who is the hardest to actually kill (on the PTR with tenacity):
1) GWF/TR
2) GF
3) DC/HR
4) CW
Who deal the most burst damage?
1) CW
2) HR/GWF
3) GF/TR
4) DC
So why is it the tankiest class who is also the hardest to actualyl kill is one of the best damage dealers in the game? What that tells me is Sents need to either get their tanky reduced or damage or both!
My propositions (Unstoppable = based on % of HP lost) and TR CD of 3 seconds accomplishes BOTH those things and brings it back inline.
I would like to see TR stealth meter exhaust when they use at-wills while stealthed, that would fix the broken OP perma stealth builds. Otherwise others classes cannot counter them and die. I would also like to see the defence ignoring feature of Shocking Execution removed as it still hits too hard and other classes especially CWs have problems being killed too quick. In fact every single class should receive/deal absolutely identical damage. No GWF should ever have advantage over a TR and no TR should ever have an advantage over CW.
But I have an idea to make it even better. Why don't we have players wear bras? And instead of wearing helmets they should wear little tinfoil hats cause you know... it's the future and we shouldn't be so barbaric... Instead of fighting let's just have a balloon and whoever catches the balloon tries to run while all other players hug.
In the thread: bunch of TR players who wants GWFs-class that they don't understand nerfed, because every other class they can 1v1 on ez mode and with GWF some effort is required. How dare those GWFs pose a threat?
To devs: please disregard the calls for nerfs as this is generally not sentiment of general playerbase just a couple of upset players that do not even the classes they call nerfs on enough.
Constructive Feedback:
Please add more survivability to wizards via some sort of class mechanic or tweaking of their base stats.
No GWF should ever have advantage over a TR and no TR should ever have an advantage over CW.
But I have an idea to make it even better. Why don't we have players wear bras? And instead of wearing helmets they should wear little tinfoil hats cause you know... it's the future and we shouldn't be so barbaric... Instead of fighting let's just have a balloon and whoever catches the balloon tries to run while all other players hug.
In the thread: bunch of TR players who wants GWFs-class that they don't understand nerfed, because every other class they can 1v1 on ez mode and with GWF some effort is required. How dare those GWFs pose a threat?
I completely disagree. What you don't understand about TR is that the majority of us are combat rogues and not playing the supposed ezmode in stealth. In our executioner builds, we facetank most damage with ITC, affected by healing depression, has nerfed regen on PTR and only utilize stealth as a means of buffing encounter powers. I also understand all that mumbo about stealth being our true nature and other whatnot they use to defend the permastealth builds with. But just being honest here, I like the combat build as it stood before. I would rather dish out damage than hide in stealth, and strategically dodge and maneuver around your GWF like a ping-pong ball inside a dishwasher.
*If these changes are pushed to live as is (likely not) I expect we will all just spec into permastealth and bully the only class we will be able to stomp kill >> the poor CW. So yes, put us combat TR in the same boat as the permas, so we will all be permas, 'cause my observation tells me the Devs want TR to be played as intended -- in stealth. I'm against it, but I do believe the permastealth builds are intended. How do I know? Keeping track of all the nerf/rebalancing, everytime they nerf our damage, our stealth synergies are seemingly improved (i.e. one shot nerf, gloaming cut buff). The combat rogues are improvised builds, and would beg to differ at the mention of 'ezmode'.
As a combat TR, my best defense isn't stealth. It's my mobility. The only problem I have is that the GWF is impossible to kite whilst being really good at kiting. Before any class-specific flame starts here, just know that I play all classes; Fighters, CW, Ranger and TR; besides DC. The imbalance of the IronVan builds is felt by every class.
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited January 2014
In all first i want to say there is a brutal difference between 18 k GS GWF and 9k GS GWF sentinel or not and big difference whit no enchant and perfect vorpal or any other enchant ....
Any other lvl 60 bis gear kill in 3 sec 9 k GS GWF whit no enchant,this issue y talk about have nothing to do whit this class. Unkillable come from gear not from class or spec feat or path.On live op regen senti use Titan set + all regen hp stuff he can get .
The 2d thing is y talk about 4 passive feat but y can slot 4 only 2 ..eather y want to nerf trample or bravery or wm or ferocious reaction y cannot slot 4 in 1 time .
3d I.vanguard is the final add tank at least we have somthing or some role in dung and y all want to nerf it .
3-7 sec cd threat rush realy how can we kite adds ?
20% determination -hp lol this char is tank but i know better why not take it to -50% we must eat dmg dont have roll teleport shifting block what shoud we do just die ?
Why dont y want all ask for this nerf: Nerf GWF dmg to 1 and nerf GWF dmr to 1% nerf GWF hp to 1 .
So we can die from every single add easy .
Common lets kill this class i have no place in any pt for almost half year .Now i have place in pt for 1 month and y want us nerf agan. GZ
What will be the next just curius shoud i roll to DC? or its too powerfull?
Or what abour CW will be unkillable?
But i think the next classes will be GF TR (unkillable).
AND what will be the next move ? NERF DUNGEONS unable to kill adds ?
I think this thread is absolutly unproductive and have no point ..
Kickin others what do expect in return?
Why not y all try this out Suggestion to separate PVP skills from PVE skill ?? So then nobody can make unkillable GWF GF TR CW DC & HR. Then y all can nerf GWF and any other class y pick for pvp and leave pve where it is now.
Unkillable come from gear not from class or spec feat or path.
I wish I could copy/paste to your account my rank 9/perfect vorpal CW so you can see how you fare against same gear GWF. I have 2-3 sets of gear so you can choose what you want, full squish DPS, 31K HP with HV set and defensive accesories etc.
If you really think CW is just as immortal as GWF at this gear level... what can I say.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
I wish I could copy/paste to your account my rank 9/perfect vorpal CW so you can see how you fare against same gear GWF. I have 2-3 sets of gear so you can choose what you want, full squish DPS, 31K HP with HV set and defensive accesories etc.
If you really think CW is just as immortal as GWF at this gear level... what can I say.
I have no problem whit any GWF sent or not ,if i play whit my wifes char (in H.V sett mc Wep + p.vorpal all encants rank 8)
E.force-1m.missile- ray-Ice Dagger-2 m.missile-1 ray-chill strike-another ray . Most time they are dead if not i have 3 teleports but i dont teleport back instead i teleport forward so they are always confused...
AGAN if y want to nerf this will happen much more less dmr much more less dmg no prone cant aviod dmg cant go close to any one only otion is to die in PVP.
This thread will lead only to another nerf folowed by gwfs how will be unhappy agan.
To nerf TR and GF then both 3 class will ask to nerf HR and CW and then the 5 class will nerf DC when all nerfed next dungons will be asked for nerfs and the rotation will start agan whit GWF and TR.... No point in this ...
Feedback is not a place = ask for nerf .
This is too big nerf demand for GWF and doom for class in pve.
In pve we cant take dmg & do dmg controll will pop up unstoppable on half hp and we cant do more threath.
I have no problem whit any GWF sent or not ,if i play whit my wifes char (in H.V sett mc Wep + p.vorpal all encants rank 8) E.force-1m.missile- ray-Ice Dagger-2 m.missile-1 ray-chill strike-another ray . Most time they are dead if not i have 3 teleports but i dont teleport back instead i teleport forward so they are always confused...
Bolded and colored your statement. I really dunno what kind of GWFs you met.
And I never asked for nerfs.
Feel free to post a video of how you kill GWFs with that rotation, cause they are pretty much <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> if they die to that.
Thats exactly the point, Sentinels deal way too much damage, now you have to actually time WHEN To threat rush to get your damage boost.
It doesnt make ANY combos useless at all, it makes it require much more skill to play. YOu just highlighted the major issue with the GWF.
Threatrush takedown (btw trampl 15% + mark 8% + feat 15% = 38% more damage now) frontline (same applies) and IBS (same)
38% dmg boost and THEN you have SotS procs, which can reduce defense by 45% your not a CW dude, thats massive and overkill for dmg boosts/debuffs.
It needs to require timing and BTW your combo would still work.
TR -> Takedown -> frontline (been about 3 seconds) -> TS again -> IBS. Nothing has changed. Just TS wisely, BTW they also need to increase the range a tad for this since alot of time the skill bugs out and doesnt let you connect with people, so that would fix that.
gwf is not op iron vangourd path is it was broken op on gf and they just bring it to gwf where is even more broken op since it works more then great on sentinel gwf ,trample should be moved to swordmaster florish should prone and frontline need masive nerf or not to prone atm it is huge damage+instant cast+5 targets ty to last patch+15sec cd+mark + 15% damage% it proc from trample
as i said it is easy to fix op of sentinel mark feat who improves damage changed to threat bonus and trample moved to swordmaster and there is goes 30% damage from it and armor penetration moved to dex and there is another 10%
In all first i want to say there is a brutal difference between 18 k GS GWF and 9k GS GWF sentinel or not and big difference whit no enchant and perfect vorpal or any other enchant ....
Any other lvl 60 bis gear kill in 3 sec 9 k GS GWF whit no enchant,this issue y talk about have nothing to do whit this class. Unkillable come from gear not from class or spec feat or path.On live op regen senti use Titan set + all regen hp stuff he can get .
The 2d thing is y talk about 4 passive feat but y can slot 4 only 2 ..eather y want to nerf trample or bravery or wm or ferocious reaction y cannot slot 4 in 1 time .
3d I.vanguard is the final add tank at least we have somthing or some role in dung and y all want to nerf it .
3-7 sec cd threat rush realy how can we kite adds ?
20% determination -hp lol this char is tank but i know better why not take it to -50% we must eat dmg dont have roll teleport shifting block what shoud we do just die ?
Why dont y want all ask for this nerf: Nerf GWF dmg to 1 and nerf GWF dmr to 1% nerf GWF hp to 1 .
So we can die from every single add easy .
Common lets kill this class i have no place in any pt for almost half year .Now i have place in pt for 1 month and y want us nerf agan. GZ
What will be the next just curius shoud i roll to DC? or its too powerfull?
Or what abour CW will be unkillable?
But i think the next classes will be GF TR (unkillable).
AND what will be the next move ? NERF DUNGEONS unable to kill adds ?
I think this thread is absolutly unproductive and have no point ..
Kickin others what do expect in return?
Why not y all try this out Suggestion to separate PVP skills from PVE skill ?? So then nobody can make unkillable GWF GF TR CW DC & HR. Then y all can nerf GWF and any other class y pick for pvp and leave pve where it is now.
^ This is obviously a guy defending a class that he loves to play. Let's leave it at that to avoid more flame and sidetracking the thread. We post rebalancing suggestions here as informative feedbacks from our own observation on the changes currently being patched on PTR.
Nobody knows how the tables will turn; we simply like to have a civilized discussion to tone down a potentially too effective mechanic in order to buff certain abilities that the GWF needs the most, i.e. threat generation in PvE.
gwf is not op iron vangourd path is it was broken op on gf and they just bring it to gwf where is even more broken op since it works more then great on sentinel gwf ,trample should be moved to swordmaster florish should prone and frontline need masive nerf or not to prone atm it is huge damage+instant cast+5 targets ty to last patch+15sec cd+mark + 15% damage% it proc from trample
as i said it is easy to fix op of sentinel mark feat who improves damage changed to threat bonus and trample moved to swordmaster and there is goes 30% damage from it and armor penetration moved to dex and there is another 10%
Yes IV is what made the Sent OP, the ability to mark is what really killed it. THe biggest issue with what you have suggested is GF also play IV and so any ability to take away from IV takes it away from both the GF and GWF. They wont move trample away from IV GFs, just wont happen AND SM cant even synergise well with it since they dont have frontline. Its really intended to be played with prones.
flourish cant prone, its not that type of ability. Maybe it should deal increased solo target damage, im fine with that being the case.
Frontline GOT a massive nerf, it deals 25% less damage. They adjusted the time it takes a character to get up from a prone on the ground (seems like by HALF) so its a massive nerf to the ability.
You clearly have not played a GWF on the PTR because you would know alot of these changes. Not to mention players have control resist as well making prones even worse.
What IS the issue, like I said before, is 1) Unstoppable is too good for Sents and not good enough for Destroyers. They need to make Unstoppable based on PERCENTAGE of HP lost. People who complain about PVE, this wont really affect you at all in PVE on EITHER build. Right now Sentinel GWFs are WAY too tanky, they need to be dropped down a tad compared to a GF.
What I would suggest is unstoppable/determination is gained based on % of HP lost.
EXAMPLE:
Currently My sent (39k HP) only has to lose about 10-12% HP to have unstoppable (5k HP) putting me around 34kish. I then pop unstoppable and even with the nerf perma heal 2.5% and get about 5% Temp HP.
This happens alot.
What I propose is move that % to 20% of your HP lost to gain unstoppable. Now I must lose about 7800 HP to pop that and heal a portion of that. That means I am SLIGHTLY less tanky.
Currently a Destroyer who has 26k HP with low DR must take about 25%+ of their HP (around the same 5k number) to pop unstoppable, they heal much less since the heal is a % of HP same with the temp HP. If you change it to a flat 20% of their HP lost, that actually BUFFS destroyer since now they take less damage to pop unstoppable.
Now that you have slightly nerfed Sents survivability, their damage output can remain attractive. The only thing that THEN requires fixing is the un-kitability of the class via threat rush.
Right now you can spam threat rush over and over and over and noone can get away. Thats why a 3 sec CD on the skill fixed that.
Putting a 3 sec CD on the skill makes it MUCH harder for a GWF to PUT a mark on someone, so I think the extra damage is warranted and fine IF they can get that up on someone (remember ANY damage will remove the mark, even a DOT)
ALSO, just a fun fact here. Most Sentinels dont like being less tanky and as a result of this unstoppable nerf (slightly and only to sents) AND the fact that on the PTR prones have a major reduction in time, trample the fallen becomes MUCH less attractive and I would imagine MOST will switch to bravery meaning now they lost that 15% damage bonus to prone targets.
So in the end, slightly nerfed unstoppable, nerfed the un-kitability of the class, and nerfed their damage a tad all while making it balanced. Now if a sent wants to push trample they can but are most squishy and more -kitable than now.
If they want to maintain the tankiness by swapping to bravery for extra deflect, they lose out on trample (15% dmg boost) AND mark is much harder to apply which is another major damage boost (about 23%) so this really cuts the damage down and balances the class.
Doesnt affect non-sents in fact it only makes them slightly stronger!
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
Even without Trample, IV sents are already incredibly difficult to damage and deal large amounts of damage, for example run with Bravery + Weaponmaster.
We have 53-57% damage resist from AC and Defense
We have 25-35% deflect chance
Then stack tenacity on top.
The thing is that as IV Sent I could, even without popping Unstoppable as often, be more or less immune to damage. Attacks that would deal several thousand damage on someone else would deal a few hundred max to me. Tenacity reduces the damage an IV Sent takes, and as a result, healing depression isn't that big of a deal for the most part.
The other thing is that with Bravery (and some Darks in Utility), the IV Sent can just kite you endlessly, so that TR/GWF/GF would have problems even attacking it in the first place because at wills will miss due to the IV Sent moving out of range easily without even using Sprint.
And what most every IV Sent knows, you don't stand around to fight an enemy as an IV Sent. You burst attack them with Threatening Rush + Frontline + IBS + Takedown + Indomitable Strength and then kite them around until your skills are off cooldown and usable again. Because IV Sents are incredibly tanky, it is possible to do that without losing any HP unless theres multiple enemies focussing you down.
The burst damage portion due to primarily stemming from IV powers, deals very high damage due to % weapon damage being based on the original GF swords as opposed to GWF swords.
To really address the issue, Damage reduction of Sentinels needs to come down (Reduce it from Master at Arms + Sentinel's Aegis) and IV powers need to scale to GWF base weapon damage, just as Swordmaster ones do. Even then, IV Sentinels would still be tankier than GFs and more mobile, but not by a vast amount, and won't be able to deal incredible amounts of damage at the same time.
calling for nerfs in the name of tenacity changes is still a nerf thread especially considering that this is all on the preview shard and is still in the testing phase. if you have valid tenacity feedback--meaning you've logged into the preview shard and tested the new tenacity stat--then please provide that feedback in the official tenacity feedback thread. if you would like to theorize and assume, you may discuss tenacity in the alternate tenacity thread. however the calling for nerfs in the name of a stat that isn't even live yet is not a constructive discussion.
Comments
A thousand times no.
As long as all I have are 3 dodges and then jump around the pillars for stamina and cooldowns, while GWF can unstoppable after each of my encounter rotations... has more HP, more DR, and hits harder (lol...)
... I cannot see how moving DG or even removing temp HP will "fix" the class.
It's either we accept that GWF is the supreme god in the rockpaperscissors lameness, or do something like:
- Destroyer: High DPS GWF, squishy
- Sent: tanky GWF, low DPS
- instigator:whatever
For now, there's nothing but accept things as they are. I might try to kill the GWF on my point once, if I barely scratch him and he takedowns me for 12K, then it's time somebody else takes care of him, and I'll be there to shoot an Ice Knife in his butt when he's prone.
Excuse the uneducated here..
Pers, Your 100% right. Ive been playing a friends CW in pvp (you know who im talking about) to test out the class and it really is just dumb being on the other end of that.
The GWF right now cant fit into a rock paper scissor analogy because its not either, its the dynomite that blows up all the rock, paper and scissors combined.
I agree the DPS on Sentinels needs to be toned down OR the tankiness does, the suggestio nto make determination gain based upon PERCENTAGE of HP lost will help balance the class alot I think.
I'm the guy that actually told the PvP dev when he said that Deep Gash needs "fixing" that GWF damage depends on it and it makes them viable so damage should remain the same for PvE. So I'd say I'm not one of the "nerf GWF" guys, and I'll never be.
But lets be real about the PvP GWF a bit. Cause when people bring good arguments, all I see is "L2P" (lol) and "rockpaperscissors".
Same goes for perma TRs, there's no question about it.
TLDR:
This is an MMO with a PvP part, which will grow up in significance and mature soon. In MMOs, balance is something like this:
- you tanky, but your damage is low
- you heal, damage is low
- you DPS, but you're squishy
- you hybrid and do some or all of these things, but neither in an ideal way
As of now, GWFs are EXTREMELY tanky and pretty much up there with the best damage dealers for PvP.
You really think this is right? Well, then there's nothing else I can say.
People need to understand that I have a few GWF friends, like you, and I really, REALLY want that you guys continue to enjoy this game and feel right about the class. There's no need IMO to nerf the class.
All there is needed is that some other classes are brought up to par, that's all.
Also it should be said that the CW ayroux played is specced and really geared for PvP, and belongs to one of the best CWs in the community. I hope this preemptively puts a stop to replies such as "you played 10KGS PvE CW in PvP and got owned".
The Problem is not GWFS as a whole. I have no problem with a Destroyer being able to put out that sort of damage.
I Have a problem with IV Sentinel GWFS who have No downside to their class whatsoever. At the present moment in time, they have the best surviviability, and the best burst capability against All classes. Executioner Rogues who are a bucketload squishier cannot even meet anywhere near the same amount of consistent high crits that a IV Sent can. Between Trample the Fallen, Mark and Threatening Rush, and Unstoppable. There is Little to No downside to playing a IV Sent.
Please don't sit there and try and claim it is in a great spot. It's broken, You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Right now it's pretty nasty against a GWF as a CW. It would really, really help if CWs had ArP built into one of their stats as well. Wisdom, for instance, is pretty pointless now that there's basically no CC in PVP. It could go there, perhaps, or with another stat.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Trace I think doing that would break Debuff build Cws though. As we can stack our Debuffs pretty high as is now..
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Honestly Id much rather see CWs get some defensive capability, maybe longer range on teleport or something. The damage output is pretty good IMO on a CW. Alot of good burst ability, good damage over time ability, good debuffs, I dont think more ARP is honestly needed.
I mean CWs almost needs some "feat" LIKE the HR ability that lets you dodge the next attack or something... Just something to help mitigate the burst damage.
I havnt played CW on the PTR yet so I am excited to give that a try, hopefully someday soon! But I do feel like the CW I have access to has good capability to atleast stand a chance against all classes (even TRs) but no way Sent GWFs.
Yeah CW damage is fine, only very tanky chars survive perfect combo rotation (which is how it should be...), squishier ones go directly in soulforge.
I proposed Invisibility and Mirror Images since these spells are pretty much in both D&D and the game. That other MMO had AoE stuns like Ring of Frost and Frost Nova, or slows like Cone of Cold, and immunities such as Ice Block, also we got later on some heals with Cauterize (pretty much a soulforge without the enchant) and Alter Time. All in all, these spells kept mages competitive even against huge bursting rogues or warriors.
Basically not the class won the duels, but your skills and gear and ability use.
IMO this is how it should work. You shouldn't start at a disadvantage.
One BIG problem for making this work in Neverwinter is that our action bars are small. If you slot an escape/immunity spell, no longer enough CC or DPS, at least as a CW. Other MMOs have big bars, and it's up to you to adapt on the spot, which is quite nice.
So please, if you start "suggesting" ideas, make sure you can see it from every spec's perspective instead of just one.
Some suggestions have been made.
For example:
- determination built over a % of health lost instead of the x amount of HP lost that we have now. Would, for sure, make unstoppable the same on DPS builds or high con-HP builds
- move ArP to STR and DoT resistance to CON. Would make the CON-tank builds a bit more tanky, and the STR DPS builds would have a clear advantage in damage, in both PvE and PvP. Would avoid high CON PvP builds getting both the best survivability and the best boost in damage (ArP is, hands down, the best offensive PvP stat)
These 2 changes alone would help mark the difference between DPS builds and tank builds, and would also make DPS builds actually more valuable for PvP.
This said, tenacity is good for DPS builds. Increases your survivability a lot, considering you guys usually don't have unstoppable recovery, and do not stack regeneration but rather deflection and defense.
Both tenacity and healing depression make tank builds less tanky (still tankier thanks to the last 2 sentinel feats), and DPS builds more viable.
With the 2 above changes, i think it would be perfect.
Like ayroux and myself were posting some pages back, a Sentinel doesn't just have significantly higher DR than a GF, it also has much higher Deflect as well, with the overall additional DR from deflect likely exceeding that of TRs. That is before Unstoppable too.
I'd also like to see Battle Trample and Improved Reaction swap places on the paragon feat trees.
Such changes would not negatively impact other trees besides the Sentinel.
I agree.
For starters to the person above worried aobut their Dest spec
1) Unstoppable as a PERCENTAGE of HP lost buffs non Sent specs and nerfs Sent Specs slighty. Right now a Sent needs to take about 8-9% HP lost to go unstoppable, a Dest needs to take 20-30%+ HP lost to pop unstoppable. Making it a % of HP lost (say 15-20%) would be IMO a very attractive change.
2) Threatening Rush should have a CD of about 3 seconds to prevent spamming.
DONE. Now Sent Tankiness is on par with GFs( they need to take more % of HP lost to gain unstoppable). And also Sents can be more easily kited in pvp because of the threat rush CD.
What all of this will do is make more Sents run Bravery again to make up for the unstoppable change, as well as the threat rush change so they get the run speed to catch up, so now with Trample the Fallen gone to compensate for lack of tankiness AND they will need bravery to avoid being kited around thats 15% Less damage, PLUS the threat rush CD makes it MUCH harder to get a marked IBS on someone so potentially a 30% decrease in damage.
That is an easy way to fix all of this....
Now sents are easier to kite, easier to kill and deal less damage than before. Now trample is a fair tradeoff since youll be much more squishy and even easier to kite to deal an axtra 15% dmg, I think thats fair.
Now when I can get at best 10-11k IBS crits on PTR with Tenacity hurting my damage, itll be more like 7-8k crits which is still not bad, but thats what you get for being ultra tanky.
Overkill? Only in light of the Perma TR which would then be the king of pvp again. Which ive stated before, all you need to do to hurt that build is remove the 30% run speed bonus feat they get in steath and make it do something else OR much less (like down to 15%).
The run speed is what enables them to dodge really well, remove that and youll be golden. Dodge meaning movement to get outside of striking range and outside the distance where people can see you.
When I run bravery on my Sent my run speed is more on par with a TR and they cant escape as well, so remove OR nerf the run speed bonus and itll fix the perma pvp issue alot...
Even dropping it from 30% run speed to 15% would make it alot more of a tradeoff and require alot more skill to play a perma.
Now you have ultra tanky lower damage Sents and ultra tanky GFs as the hardest to kill lowest dps classes.
Other GWFs are slitghly MORE takny in pvp due to unstoppable change.
Permas are not as good due to run speed nerf.
Squishy classes have the benefit of tenacity to prevent 1 combo-ing. All of this seems fair...
3 seconds on the skill i that i constantly need to have up to get a dmg boost? I also use it as an opener ~threatening rush, takedown, frontline surge, threatening rush again (obviously) and indomitable battle strike. Sounds like a really bad idea. 1 second maybe, but 3? It would render entire combos and feats as pretty much useless.
Threatening rush has to be ready at all times, since marks (too) easily wear off.
Hr the Nature builds on good end game hr at min are insanity they can easy beat GWF play right
GF and Gwf are about same at min they can beat any class played right but can also get beat by the above 2 class's
then Down here we have Dc great support at min nice for any team
Then we have Cw any one can kill CW even a Dc so way I see it at min issue is cw is to weak in pvp and its to powerful in pve so its class that needs to change first it needs fixing first (we could just ban all Cw from pvp like they did to all other class's pre mode 2 in pve)
Thats exactly the point, Sentinels deal way too much damage, now you have to actually time WHEN To threat rush to get your damage boost.
It doesnt make ANY combos useless at all, it makes it require much more skill to play. YOu just highlighted the major issue with the GWF.
Threatrush takedown (btw trampl 15% + mark 8% + feat 15% = 38% more damage now) frontline (same applies) and IBS (same)
38% dmg boost and THEN you have SotS procs, which can reduce defense by 45% your not a CW dude, thats massive and overkill for dmg boosts/debuffs.
It needs to require timing and BTW your combo would still work.
TR -> Takedown -> frontline (been about 3 seconds) -> TS again -> IBS. Nothing has changed. Just TS wisely, BTW they also need to increase the range a tad for this since alot of time the skill bugs out and doesnt let you connect with people, so that would fix that.
A perma and GWF are about on the same level. I 1v1d Jerkface (Enemy Team) the other day and beat him like 10 of 12 times or something. This is on the PTR with nerfed regen etc.
HR - cant do anything versus good GWF
GF - cant beat GWF can only tie it at best.
DC - GWF can kill DCs (havnt tested on PTR but did this live many times)
I notice you dont say CWs because GWFs destroy CWs.
The fact of the matter is this:
Who is the MOST tanky in order:
1) GWF
2) GF
3) DC
4) HR/TR
5) CW
Who is the hardest to actually kill (on the PTR with tenacity):
1) GWF/TR
2) GF
3) DC/HR
4) CW
Who deal the most burst damage?
1) CW
2) HR/GWF
3) GF/TR
4) DC
So why is it the tankiest class who is also the hardest to actualyl kill is one of the best damage dealers in the game? What that tells me is Sents need to either get their tanky reduced or damage or both!
My propositions (Unstoppable = based on % of HP lost) and TR CD of 3 seconds accomplishes BOTH those things and brings it back inline.
But I have an idea to make it even better. Why don't we have players wear bras? And instead of wearing helmets they should wear little tinfoil hats cause you know... it's the future and we shouldn't be so barbaric... Instead of fighting let's just have a balloon and whoever catches the balloon tries to run while all other players hug.
In the thread: bunch of TR players who wants GWFs-class that they don't understand nerfed, because every other class they can 1v1 on ez mode and with GWF some effort is required. How dare those GWFs pose a threat?
To devs: please disregard the calls for nerfs as this is generally not sentiment of general playerbase just a couple of upset players that do not even the classes they call nerfs on enough.
Constructive Feedback:
Please add more survivability to wizards via some sort of class mechanic or tweaking of their base stats.
I just had to quote that ^. It made my day.
I completely disagree. What you don't understand about TR is that the majority of us are combat rogues and not playing the supposed ezmode in stealth. In our executioner builds, we facetank most damage with ITC, affected by healing depression, has nerfed regen on PTR and only utilize stealth as a means of buffing encounter powers. I also understand all that mumbo about stealth being our true nature and other whatnot they use to defend the permastealth builds with. But just being honest here, I like the combat build as it stood before. I would rather dish out damage than hide in stealth, and strategically dodge and maneuver around your GWF like a ping-pong ball inside a dishwasher.
*If these changes are pushed to live as is (likely not) I expect we will all just spec into permastealth and bully the only class we will be able to stomp kill >> the poor CW. So yes, put us combat TR in the same boat as the permas, so we will all be permas, 'cause my observation tells me the Devs want TR to be played as intended -- in stealth. I'm against it, but I do believe the permastealth builds are intended. How do I know? Keeping track of all the nerf/rebalancing, everytime they nerf our damage, our stealth synergies are seemingly improved (i.e. one shot nerf, gloaming cut buff). The combat rogues are improvised builds, and would beg to differ at the mention of 'ezmode'.
As a combat TR, my best defense isn't stealth. It's my mobility. The only problem I have is that the GWF is impossible to kite whilst being really good at kiting. Before any class-specific flame starts here, just know that I play all classes; Fighters, CW, Ranger and TR; besides DC. The imbalance of the IronVan builds is felt by every class.
Any other lvl 60 bis gear kill in 3 sec 9 k GS GWF whit no enchant,this issue y talk about have nothing to do whit this class. Unkillable come from gear not from class or spec feat or path.On live op regen senti use Titan set + all regen hp stuff he can get .
The 2d thing is y talk about 4 passive feat but y can slot 4 only 2 ..eather y want to nerf trample or bravery or wm or ferocious reaction y cannot slot 4 in 1 time .
3d I.vanguard is the final add tank at least we have somthing or some role in dung and y all want to nerf it .
3-7 sec cd threat rush realy how can we kite adds ?
20% determination -hp lol this char is tank but i know better why not take it to -50% we must eat dmg dont have roll teleport shifting block what shoud we do just die ?
Why dont y want all ask for this nerf: Nerf GWF dmg to 1 and nerf GWF dmr to 1% nerf GWF hp to 1 .
So we can die from every single add easy .
Common lets kill this class i have no place in any pt for almost half year .Now i have place in pt for 1 month and y want us nerf agan. GZ
What will be the next just curius shoud i roll to DC? or its too powerfull?
Or what abour CW will be unkillable?
But i think the next classes will be GF TR (unkillable).
AND what will be the next move ? NERF DUNGEONS unable to kill adds ?
I think this thread is absolutly unproductive and have no point ..
Kickin others what do expect in return?
Why not y all try this out Suggestion to separate PVP skills from PVE skill ?? So then nobody can make unkillable GWF GF TR CW DC & HR. Then y all can nerf GWF and any other class y pick for pvp and leave pve where it is now.
I wish I could copy/paste to your account my rank 9/perfect vorpal CW so you can see how you fare against same gear GWF. I have 2-3 sets of gear so you can choose what you want, full squish DPS, 31K HP with HV set and defensive accesories etc.
If you really think CW is just as immortal as GWF at this gear level... what can I say.
I have no problem whit any GWF sent or not ,if i play whit my wifes char (in H.V sett mc Wep + p.vorpal all encants rank 8)
E.force-1m.missile- ray-Ice Dagger-2 m.missile-1 ray-chill strike-another ray . Most time they are dead if not i have 3 teleports but i dont teleport back instead i teleport forward so they are always confused...
AGAN if y want to nerf this will happen much more less dmr much more less dmg no prone cant aviod dmg cant go close to any one only otion is to die in PVP.
This thread will lead only to another nerf folowed by gwfs how will be unhappy agan.
To nerf TR and GF then both 3 class will ask to nerf HR and CW and then the 5 class will nerf DC when all nerfed next dungons will be asked for nerfs and the rotation will start agan whit GWF and TR.... No point in this ...
Feedback is not a place = ask for nerf .
This is too big nerf demand for GWF and doom for class in pve.
In pve we cant take dmg & do dmg controll will pop up unstoppable on half hp and we cant do more threath.
Bolded and colored your statement. I really dunno what kind of GWFs you met.
And I never asked for nerfs.
Feel free to post a video of how you kill GWFs with that rotation, cause they are pretty much <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> if they die to that.
gwf is not op iron vangourd path is it was broken op on gf and they just bring it to gwf where is even more broken op since it works more then great on sentinel gwf ,trample should be moved to swordmaster florish should prone and frontline need masive nerf or not to prone atm it is huge damage+instant cast+5 targets ty to last patch+15sec cd+mark + 15% damage% it proc from trample
as i said it is easy to fix op of sentinel mark feat who improves damage changed to threat bonus and trample moved to swordmaster and there is goes 30% damage from it and armor penetration moved to dex and there is another 10%
^ This is obviously a guy defending a class that he loves to play. Let's leave it at that to avoid more flame and sidetracking the thread. We post rebalancing suggestions here as informative feedbacks from our own observation on the changes currently being patched on PTR.
Nobody knows how the tables will turn; we simply like to have a civilized discussion to tone down a potentially too effective mechanic in order to buff certain abilities that the GWF needs the most, i.e. threat generation in PvE.
Yes IV is what made the Sent OP, the ability to mark is what really killed it. THe biggest issue with what you have suggested is GF also play IV and so any ability to take away from IV takes it away from both the GF and GWF. They wont move trample away from IV GFs, just wont happen AND SM cant even synergise well with it since they dont have frontline. Its really intended to be played with prones.
flourish cant prone, its not that type of ability. Maybe it should deal increased solo target damage, im fine with that being the case.
Frontline GOT a massive nerf, it deals 25% less damage. They adjusted the time it takes a character to get up from a prone on the ground (seems like by HALF) so its a massive nerf to the ability.
You clearly have not played a GWF on the PTR because you would know alot of these changes. Not to mention players have control resist as well making prones even worse.
What IS the issue, like I said before, is 1) Unstoppable is too good for Sents and not good enough for Destroyers. They need to make Unstoppable based on PERCENTAGE of HP lost. People who complain about PVE, this wont really affect you at all in PVE on EITHER build. Right now Sentinel GWFs are WAY too tanky, they need to be dropped down a tad compared to a GF.
What I would suggest is unstoppable/determination is gained based on % of HP lost.
EXAMPLE:
Currently My sent (39k HP) only has to lose about 10-12% HP to have unstoppable (5k HP) putting me around 34kish. I then pop unstoppable and even with the nerf perma heal 2.5% and get about 5% Temp HP.
This happens alot.
What I propose is move that % to 20% of your HP lost to gain unstoppable. Now I must lose about 7800 HP to pop that and heal a portion of that. That means I am SLIGHTLY less tanky.
Currently a Destroyer who has 26k HP with low DR must take about 25%+ of their HP (around the same 5k number) to pop unstoppable, they heal much less since the heal is a % of HP same with the temp HP. If you change it to a flat 20% of their HP lost, that actually BUFFS destroyer since now they take less damage to pop unstoppable.
Now that you have slightly nerfed Sents survivability, their damage output can remain attractive. The only thing that THEN requires fixing is the un-kitability of the class via threat rush.
Right now you can spam threat rush over and over and over and noone can get away. Thats why a 3 sec CD on the skill fixed that.
Putting a 3 sec CD on the skill makes it MUCH harder for a GWF to PUT a mark on someone, so I think the extra damage is warranted and fine IF they can get that up on someone (remember ANY damage will remove the mark, even a DOT)
ALSO, just a fun fact here. Most Sentinels dont like being less tanky and as a result of this unstoppable nerf (slightly and only to sents) AND the fact that on the PTR prones have a major reduction in time, trample the fallen becomes MUCH less attractive and I would imagine MOST will switch to bravery meaning now they lost that 15% damage bonus to prone targets.
So in the end, slightly nerfed unstoppable, nerfed the un-kitability of the class, and nerfed their damage a tad all while making it balanced. Now if a sent wants to push trample they can but are most squishy and more -kitable than now.
If they want to maintain the tankiness by swapping to bravery for extra deflect, they lose out on trample (15% dmg boost) AND mark is much harder to apply which is another major damage boost (about 23%) so this really cuts the damage down and balances the class.
Doesnt affect non-sents in fact it only makes them slightly stronger!
We have 53-57% damage resist from AC and Defense
We have 25-35% deflect chance
Then stack tenacity on top.
The thing is that as IV Sent I could, even without popping Unstoppable as often, be more or less immune to damage. Attacks that would deal several thousand damage on someone else would deal a few hundred max to me. Tenacity reduces the damage an IV Sent takes, and as a result, healing depression isn't that big of a deal for the most part.
The other thing is that with Bravery (and some Darks in Utility), the IV Sent can just kite you endlessly, so that TR/GWF/GF would have problems even attacking it in the first place because at wills will miss due to the IV Sent moving out of range easily without even using Sprint.
And what most every IV Sent knows, you don't stand around to fight an enemy as an IV Sent. You burst attack them with Threatening Rush + Frontline + IBS + Takedown + Indomitable Strength and then kite them around until your skills are off cooldown and usable again. Because IV Sents are incredibly tanky, it is possible to do that without losing any HP unless theres multiple enemies focussing you down.
The burst damage portion due to primarily stemming from IV powers, deals very high damage due to % weapon damage being based on the original GF swords as opposed to GWF swords.
To really address the issue, Damage reduction of Sentinels needs to come down (Reduce it from Master at Arms + Sentinel's Aegis) and IV powers need to scale to GWF base weapon damage, just as Swordmaster ones do. Even then, IV Sentinels would still be tankier than GFs and more mobile, but not by a vast amount, and won't be able to deal incredible amounts of damage at the same time.