Sounds similar to the MoA bug. If you pop the MoA, you can repeatively use rain of arrows and it's all a crit. Doesn't go away until you use something that isn't a DoT like that.
People perform poorly with Whisperknife builds because they expect to do with it the same job a MI build does. But really, new path, new powers, new builds = "new role" -- its pretty obvious. Just take your mention of VP and ITC as an example. You are comparing the two on grounds that both are CC breakers. Well, its not. The CC breaker trait of VP just doesn't work. No, its a totally different power for totally different purposes. Its a power that allows you fight like Marvel's Nightcrawler
But here seems CO doesn't even used by the DS, so at-will doesn't benefit from CO proc.
At least, this seems to be ximae's test result.
yes pretty much this, i tried critting with co buff and without and damage seemed pretty much the same. There is the rng to take into account and id need a pretty much bigger sample size and take note of every dame hit and im not willing to do that.
whish they released some sort of transmutable weapon that had min = max damage for testing purposes
Min = Max damage? Coincidentally there is one if I remember correctly. It's a blue weapon. I'll try to find the name for you tomorrow after getting home from work just so that we can get results faster. But yeah, I've also tested this some days back in preview. It doesn't seem to impact the damage of the DoT's of DS at all. Its duration merely gets refreshed, and if I use another attack the CO buff will be consumed.
got a hold of 2 them a bit earlier and even though i didnt have much time for testing b4 i had to go i sort of concluded a few things.
First, CO is broken for Wk. tested this with sly flourish mostly... when u crit u will get the damage buff on the next attack be it a crit or not ( around 25% damage boost on non crits) and if its a crit not only will u get the damage boost but u will refresh the buff.
second, Co is tottally broken with Ds, It refreshes the duration alright but it does not add any damage be it a crit or a non crit. Always the same damage except for when i procced rampaging madness power buff which made it hit alittle bit harder.
Which leads me to the next pair of conclusions,
Ds bleed ticks proc all boon buffs (sharandar and dread ring) because i was freaking out with some damage variations till i figured what was happening.
Power is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> stat for TRs XD. 600 power was like 28 more damage on a crit and around half that on a non crit.
I still have to go and do the same with my MI main and see if CO is acting the same, but id swear it wasnt.
I also need some similar weapons for my HR as i want to test some stuff with him too. Anybody know any? i couldnt find any blue weapons like that for him in the ah.
So far so good. I'm thinking DS isn't proc-ing Overrun Critical because it's a DoT and not a direct damage power. But Bleed also eats up OC sometimes, so maybe the "bleed" of DS isn't really tagged as a bleed but rather a simple DoT. It's useful for prolonging the effects and refreshing OC though.
I was thinking that maybe WK's can bank on DS's OP-ness. I've been trying to theorize how powerful DS can be with Dagger Threat (15% extra damage when using ranged skills within 20' of the opponent) and First Strike (15% extra damage on the first strike in combat). It's an extra 30% damage as long as it's the first strike, and when it crits, the DoTs are a whole lot more powerful. Should be increased further with Scoundrel Training's extra 9% (if and only if the player took the human race) and Lurker's Assault (25% extra damage from Stealth). All in all we should have a total increase of 64% for the first strike of DS at optimal conditions. But the thing is such a setup will be highly situational, and it's hard to control the conditions for First Strike.
If not, I guess Dagger Threat + Scoundrel Training should suffice. That's still an extra 24% damage increase for both CoS and DS.
So far so good. I'm thinking DS isn't proc-ing Overrun Critical because it's a DoT and not a direct damage power. But Bleed also eats up OC sometimes, so maybe the "bleed" of DS isn't really tagged as a bleed but rather a simple DoT. It's useful for prolonging the effects and refreshing OC though.
I was thinking that maybe WK's can bank on DS's OP-ness. I've been trying to theorize how powerful DS can be with Dagger Threat (15% extra damage when using ranged skills within 20' of the opponent) and First Strike (15% extra damage on the first strike in combat). It's an extra 30% damage as long as it's the first strike, and when it crits, the DoTs are a whole lot more powerful. Should be increased further with Scoundrel Training's extra 9% (if and only if the player took the human race) and Lurker's Assault (25% extra damage from Stealth). All in all we should have a total increase of 64% for the first strike of DS at optimal conditions. But the thing is such a setup will be highly situational, and it's hard to control the conditions for First Strike.
If not, I guess Dagger Threat + Scoundrel Training should suffice. That's still an extra 24% damage increase for both CoS and DS.
yes the dagger threat does add some nice damage.. I'll have to try it and first strike to see what happens. Ds bleed ticks proc all boon buffs (sharandar and dread ring) because i was freaking out with some damage variations till i figured what was happening. What boons are you talking about?
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
yes the dagger threat does add some nice damage.. I'll have to try it and first strike to see what happens. Ds bleed ticks proc all boon buffs (sharandar and dread ring) because i was freaking out with some damage variations till i figured what was happening. What boons are you talking about?
Probably Rampaging Madness and Elvish Fury, the ones that give 600 power at max stacks.
We TRs rely on ITC in pvp, without it were getting proned and then dead. Ive seen theese wispknifs in pvp and they do poor dmg, and when u caought them off stealth they are doomed for sure.
right now I have to replace ITC with daft strike because of HR rooting its the only move that will break them for me. wish ITC would work on the rooting and such but right now due to that I find it useless ,, cause if I come outta stealth in ITC after a CW theres usually an HR around to mess it up and its a wasted skill cause Im stuck and can't do much ,,,
when mod to first came out I switched to a whisper knife and ran a build I have dubbed the master thrower in PvP which was centered around disheartening strike impact shot cloud of steel and perm a stealth. Let me tell you it can do plenty of damage and has great survivability while stEalthed. You just have to adjust your combat tactics accordingly. I'm sure there are several on these forums who have ran up against dusk when I was running him this way and can attest to his survivability and damage capability.
when mod to first came out I switched to a whisper knife and ran a build I have dubbed the master thrower in PvP which was centered around disheartening strike impact shot cloud of steel and perm a stealth. Let me tell you it can do plenty of damage and has great survivability while stEalthed. You just have to adjust your combat tactics accordingly. I'm sure there are several on these forums who have ran up against dusk when I was running him this way and can attest to his survivability and damage capability.
Would you happen to have any screenshots or videos how that setup is done? Any information would be greatly helpful as a reference
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So I made some time to test the WK path a little more in Preview a while back, and I made some neat new discoveries for the WK Scoundrel Build. You guys noticed how we couldn't gain AP whenever we are under Lurker's Assault? Well it seems that Scoundrel's T4 Feat, Action Rush (15% chance to gain 15% max AP), goes through this limitation. I tried a high encounter spam build with VP, Impact Shot, and WR. I like how sometimes I could proc Action Rush almost 3 - 4 times in 1 Lurker's Assault. Though there will also be times when I can't proc Action Rush at all. Action Rush gives <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> tons of AP while under LA, which brings us closer to another dose of LA for the extra 25% damage.
Some things I failed to take note of is if Action Rush is affected by AP gain Class Features and Feats. If it is affected, maybe we can increase the amount of AP we get from Action Rush while under LA by the following amounts.
- 15% from Tactics.
- 10% from Action Advantage.
- 20% from Cunning Stalker.
- 2% from Sun Elf Racial.
- 2% from Elven Haste Sharandar Boon.
- 2% from Sprite Active Companion Bonus.
Giving us a total multiplicative bonus of 51%, for a total of 22.65% per pop of Action Rush when it procs within Lurker's Assault. If it pops 3 - 4 times within LA, it shouldn't take us too long until we get another pop of LA. But that is if and only if Action Rush is affected by AP bonus feats. But it's quite fun to think of, the many builds we can create out of such a concept. I'm imagining this to be some sort of Single Target DPS in dungeons where the TR will do nothing but spam his encounters on the boss in a fit of rage. My hands went sore during the testing phase due to how quickly the encounters' CD's drop with 10% RSI from INT and an extra 25% from gear.
when mod to first came out I switched to a whisper knife and ran a build I have dubbed the master thrower in PvP which was centered around disheartening strike impact shot cloud of steel and perm a stealth. Let me tell you it can do plenty of damage and has great survivability while stEalthed. You just have to adjust your combat tactics accordingly. I'm sure there are several on these forums who have ran up against dusk when I was running him this way and can attest to his survivability and damage capability.
I`ve tried that on my wk, but using encounters that pop me out of stealth usually get me into trouble . i end up using potb mostly coz of that... and only if ss is ready so i can recover stealth inmediately and continue draining their life.
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
Action Rush is affected by Tactics.
I'm not certain it is affected by other AP gain feats as when I did not slot Tactics, I was getting exactly 15% (or under 16%) in AP from testing with Impact Shot.
I couldn't get dagger threat to work on DS (damage is the same) but I wasn't using the Crystal Daggers (had fallen dragon). Figure you could double check for me?
Sticking is, IMO, the hardest for a Rogue. You Lashing Blade a CW from Stealth and chunk him for a good amount of health. Now what? He dashes away. CW can dash 3 times and has the CC to keep you at bay. Rogue can only dash 2 times and Deft Strike has a hefty cooldown. Solution? Vengeance's Pursuit! Except no. The first part of the skill has a moderately long animation. It's long enough that someone's going to CC you in the middle of it, even less so if you skill the interrupt feat for it.
You shouldn't start with lashing blade if you believe CW is having over 80% of his/her stamina left, and you can also do the first part of VP in stealth without breaking it (though I don't remember if it resets after breaking stealth, too long a vacation from my rogue..).
And 95% of the time you can predict which way the CW is going to dodge, depending on your position, time in stealth, and if they have seen you or not.
Just some suggestions totally workable on 10.9k gs with lesser enchants.
Action Rush is affected by Tactics.
I'm not certain it is affected by other AP gain feats as when I did not slot Tactics, I was getting exactly 15% (or under 16%) in AP from testing with Impact Shot.
I couldn't get dagger threat to work on DS (damage is the same) but I wasn't using the Crystal Daggers (had fallen dragon). Figure you could double check for me?
Did you try the build I posted a few pages back?
Hey, man! We think alike. I used a build similar to what you posted. I modeled my test TR according to this previous post of mine but with some very strange twists because of the overall concept I was trying to tackle with the WK Scoundrel Build I had in mind. It's basically the WK I described in my most previous post here, one that can generate AP while inside Lurker's Assault.
I imagined it to be a PVE build, pure single target DPS that aims to get Lurker's Assault up as often as possible in order to get that extra 25% damage and unlimited Stealth. I put points in Improved Cunning Sneak, because as long as we have it at 5/5, encounters will not break our Stealth whenever we are using Lurker's Assault. This provides us with unlimited Stealth for 10 seconds and the liberty to use all our encounters within those 10 seconds without worrying about us popping out of Stealth. This in turn will grant us Combat Advantage, which Action Advantage and Underhanded Tactics benefits from a lot, and unlimited Stealth which gives us 20% more AP thanks to Cunning Stalker. I never thought we could pack all of those (most specially stealth) in a Scoundrel build.
So what I like to do first is to use Disheartening Strike to get the DoT's in for extra damage, then start the barrage of encounter spamming to proc Action Rush empowered by our AP gain feats. Once we have Lurker's Assault up, we use it while in Stealth and start encounter spamming again but with the full benefits of Stealth and its related feats. Action Rush will be replenishing our AP while under LA, and theoretically Action Rush will be further boosted by our AP gain mechanics. If Tactics is affecting Action Rush then it should give us hope that other sources of AP% gain will work with Action Rush as well. Hopefully it does! This will need more testing, however. Let's pray for favorable results.
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
Well my TR on live has been a Scoundrel from the get go and I only ever noticed exactly 15% AP gain (as in, it rounds up the AP gain from an encounter to 15% total) unless I had Tactics slotted, in which case it was higher
Nice, Scoundrel TR's are a rare find in the game. And coincidentally, we really could use more Scoundrel and Sab guides. We've got enough Executioners.
But it's sad that it doesn't seem like Action Rush is benefiting from other sources of AP gain aside from Tactics. I've been hoping that we'd be able to proc Action Rush for ~20% a pop. Would've been fun.
Well, Sab is best used in Stealth so it would have been better if you got 5/5 in Swift Footwork and Twilight Adept, and maybe in Nimble Dodge as well. A perma is the only viable spec for a Sab so far, which was how x3lade originally made his permastealth TR. But it would have been great if Sab got Brutal Backstab for the bonus crit severity in Stealth. Executioner is TOO good. Needs to be toned down, in my opinion. Or the other paths just need to be buffed.
But the Sab KB capstone is actually pretty good for dealing 6 seconds of burst with Gloaming Cut. Not sure how it'll work for a WK but since a WK will have 30% extra ArPen for 6 seconds if he took the Sab capstone, he'll be able to deal the maximum amount of damage with Dish Strike since you are mostly negating the opponent's armor. Better if it crits. I've been able to crit up to 15k on my Dish Strike in Preview, and I'm pretty sure it can reach 20k DoT's with a Perfect Vorpal.
Hi, I'd like to share my TR Whisperknife Executioner build which has been working great for me in PVE. I'm only 9k GS at the moment, but this build has nearly top damage in every dungeon and out DPS-ing those with up to 2k GS higher than me.
At-wills: Sly Flourish (solo-ing)/Duelist flurry(in a group) & Disheartening Strike
Encounters: Blitz, Bait and Switch, Lashing Blade
Dailies: Lurkers Assault, Whirlwind of Blades
Class Features: Advantageous Position, Dagger Threat.
Basically use Blitz when theres mobs, BaS to extend Stealth, and Lashing Blade at the end of stealth.
Comments
At least, this seems to be ximae's test result.
Edit: Actually, no reservations. -100% to health regen when affected by Disheartening Strike would be perfectly crispy.
yes pretty much this, i tried critting with co buff and without and damage seemed pretty much the same. There is the rng to take into account and id need a pretty much bigger sample size and take note of every dame hit and im not willing to do that.
whish they released some sort of transmutable weapon that had min = max damage for testing purposes
Aren't those transmute weapons from events 1-1dmg on each class? Maybe also the transmute weapons from dread legion skirmish are this way.
got a hold of 2 them a bit earlier and even though i didnt have much time for testing b4 i had to go i sort of concluded a few things.
First, CO is broken for Wk. tested this with sly flourish mostly... when u crit u will get the damage buff on the next attack be it a crit or not ( around 25% damage boost on non crits) and if its a crit not only will u get the damage boost but u will refresh the buff.
second, Co is tottally broken with Ds, It refreshes the duration alright but it does not add any damage be it a crit or a non crit. Always the same damage except for when i procced rampaging madness power buff which made it hit alittle bit harder.
Which leads me to the next pair of conclusions,
Ds bleed ticks proc all boon buffs (sharandar and dread ring) because i was freaking out with some damage variations till i figured what was happening.
Power is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> stat for TRs XD. 600 power was like 28 more damage on a crit and around half that on a non crit.
I still have to go and do the same with my MI main and see if CO is acting the same, but id swear it wasnt.
I also need some similar weapons for my HR as i want to test some stuff with him too. Anybody know any? i couldnt find any blue weapons like that for him in the ah.
I was thinking that maybe WK's can bank on DS's OP-ness. I've been trying to theorize how powerful DS can be with Dagger Threat (15% extra damage when using ranged skills within 20' of the opponent) and First Strike (15% extra damage on the first strike in combat). It's an extra 30% damage as long as it's the first strike, and when it crits, the DoTs are a whole lot more powerful. Should be increased further with Scoundrel Training's extra 9% (if and only if the player took the human race) and Lurker's Assault (25% extra damage from Stealth). All in all we should have a total increase of 64% for the first strike of DS at optimal conditions. But the thing is such a setup will be highly situational, and it's hard to control the conditions for First Strike.
If not, I guess Dagger Threat + Scoundrel Training should suffice. That's still an extra 24% damage increase for both CoS and DS.
yes the dagger threat does add some nice damage.. I'll have to try it and first strike to see what happens. Ds bleed ticks proc all boon buffs (sharandar and dread ring) because i was freaking out with some damage variations till i figured what was happening. What boons are you talking about?
Permanent buffs you works towards obtaining from doing the campaigns that become available at level 60.
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Probably Rampaging Madness and Elvish Fury, the ones that give 600 power at max stacks.
Yes that's what was I referring to. what about Elven Ferocity and Shadowtouch? does ds work with bilethorn also?
right now I have to replace ITC with daft strike because of HR rooting its the only move that will break them for me. wish ITC would work on the rooting and such but right now due to that I find it useless ,, cause if I come outta stealth in ITC after a CW theres usually an HR around to mess it up and its a wasted skill cause Im stuck and can't do much ,,,
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
Would you happen to have any screenshots or videos how that setup is done? Any information would be greatly helpful as a reference
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Some things I failed to take note of is if Action Rush is affected by AP gain Class Features and Feats. If it is affected, maybe we can increase the amount of AP we get from Action Rush while under LA by the following amounts.
- 15% from Tactics.
- 10% from Action Advantage.
- 20% from Cunning Stalker.
- 2% from Sun Elf Racial.
- 2% from Elven Haste Sharandar Boon.
- 2% from Sprite Active Companion Bonus.
Giving us a total multiplicative bonus of 51%, for a total of 22.65% per pop of Action Rush when it procs within Lurker's Assault. If it pops 3 - 4 times within LA, it shouldn't take us too long until we get another pop of LA. But that is if and only if Action Rush is affected by AP bonus feats. But it's quite fun to think of, the many builds we can create out of such a concept. I'm imagining this to be some sort of Single Target DPS in dungeons where the TR will do nothing but spam his encounters on the boss in a fit of rage. My hands went sore during the testing phase due to how quickly the encounters' CD's drop with 10% RSI from INT and an extra 25% from gear.
I never noticed action rush proccing on lurkers... but then i was mi, maybe its another of those wk bugs like co.
Ps: btw my co works as usual on my mi executioner.
I`ve tried that on my wk, but using encounters that pop me out of stealth usually get me into trouble
I'm not certain it is affected by other AP gain feats as when I did not slot Tactics, I was getting exactly 15% (or under 16%) in AP from testing with Impact Shot.
I couldn't get dagger threat to work on DS (damage is the same) but I wasn't using the Crystal Daggers (had fallen dragon). Figure you could double check for me?
Did you try the build I posted a few pages back?
You shouldn't start with lashing blade if you believe CW is having over 80% of his/her stamina left, and you can also do the first part of VP in stealth without breaking it (though I don't remember if it resets after breaking stealth, too long a vacation from my rogue..).
And 95% of the time you can predict which way the CW is going to dodge, depending on your position, time in stealth, and if they have seen you or not.
Just some suggestions totally workable on 10.9k gs with lesser enchants.
Hey, man! We think alike. I used a build similar to what you posted. I modeled my test TR according to this previous post of mine but with some very strange twists because of the overall concept I was trying to tackle with the WK Scoundrel Build I had in mind. It's basically the WK I described in my most previous post here, one that can generate AP while inside Lurker's Assault.
I ended up with a build that looks like this.
I imagined it to be a PVE build, pure single target DPS that aims to get Lurker's Assault up as often as possible in order to get that extra 25% damage and unlimited Stealth. I put points in Improved Cunning Sneak, because as long as we have it at 5/5, encounters will not break our Stealth whenever we are using Lurker's Assault. This provides us with unlimited Stealth for 10 seconds and the liberty to use all our encounters within those 10 seconds without worrying about us popping out of Stealth. This in turn will grant us Combat Advantage, which Action Advantage and Underhanded Tactics benefits from a lot, and unlimited Stealth which gives us 20% more AP thanks to Cunning Stalker. I never thought we could pack all of those (most specially stealth) in a Scoundrel build.
At-Wills: Sly Flourish, Disheartening Strike.
Encounters: Vengeance's Pursuit, Wicked Reminder, Impact Shot.
Class Features: Tactics, Tenacious Concealment.
Dailies: Lurker's Assault, Whirlwind of Blades.
So what I like to do first is to use Disheartening Strike to get the DoT's in for extra damage, then start the barrage of encounter spamming to proc Action Rush empowered by our AP gain feats. Once we have Lurker's Assault up, we use it while in Stealth and start encounter spamming again but with the full benefits of Stealth and its related feats. Action Rush will be replenishing our AP while under LA, and theoretically Action Rush will be further boosted by our AP gain mechanics. If Tactics is affecting Action Rush then it should give us hope that other sources of AP% gain will work with Action Rush as well. Hopefully it does! This will need more testing, however. Let's pray for favorable results.
But it's sad that it doesn't seem like Action Rush is benefiting from other sources of AP gain aside from Tactics. I've been hoping that we'd be able to proc Action Rush for ~20% a pop. Would've been fun.
http://nwcalc.com/tr?b=cn4:13ydj4:13ydj4,1xi0i65:150uz0:100000:1u0u60&h=0&p=wkn
I tend to avoid KB stuff as it's hit or miss when you get it (in pvp) which allows a pick up of a team buff, even if it's only minor.
But the Sab KB capstone is actually pretty good for dealing 6 seconds of burst with Gloaming Cut. Not sure how it'll work for a WK but since a WK will have 30% extra ArPen for 6 seconds if he took the Sab capstone, he'll be able to deal the maximum amount of damage with Dish Strike since you are mostly negating the opponent's armor. Better if it crits. I've been able to crit up to 15k on my Dish Strike in Preview, and I'm pretty sure it can reach 20k DoT's with a Perfect Vorpal.
At-wills: Sly Flourish (solo-ing)/Duelist flurry(in a group) & Disheartening Strike
Encounters: Blitz, Bait and Switch, Lashing Blade
Dailies: Lurkers Assault, Whirlwind of Blades
Class Features: Advantageous Position, Dagger Threat.
Basically use Blitz when theres mobs, BaS to extend Stealth, and Lashing Blade at the end of stealth.
Butters TR PVP