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[Vid] Whisperknife/Scoundrel PvP "1-vs-1 against a GWF" (almost..)
kweassa
Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
Here's a clip of a 1vs1 vs. a Great Weapon Fighter. clearly a bit higher gear than mine (judging by how he survives a 3vs1 gank for a bit of a time). I was holding my own, clearly on the advantage and nearing a kill, but the fight lasted a bit too long and my teammates interfered.
This is the technique I dubbed, "Rope-a-Dope" Its basically using the WK's mobility to maximum, the "Rolling Slash" technique particularly useful since 5 points into "Determined Pursuit" will apply a slow to VP -- so with the Rolling Slash, you slow the GWF, and at the same time move out of the way. The key is to engage with VP, and then use the Rolling Slash to move to the opposite direction the GWF is facing.
The basics are simple but very difficult: You try to approach and land smokebombs, and get free hits in while Unstoppable is down. If it is up, disengage and buy time. Repeat the process as much as possible until Action Rush grants you enough AP to use Courage Breaker. Engage in CB and go all-out.. and then break away. Alternately, activating Bloodbath while Unstoppable is up is also very good. As a matter of fact, even better in some cases.
Admittedly, it takes way longer time than the standard stealth/knife-throwing/impact shot builds. Also, zero error tolerance -- meticulous planning and execution required. Also, a standard MI build with ITC would have actually held that node. You can't do that with a WK build. It's not meant for that. Frankly speaking, the build itself is not for a "killing machine" enthusiasts. Like mentioned countless times, the WK PvP build has a different role. Its team support and harassment, not back-door node holding or outright killing people in 1v1.
Another problem, is that it requires a huge space to maneuver in. A much narrower terrain, and then it becomes impossible. Ranged knocks be damned.
However, considering the fact that my gear/stats are for team support, it would be safe to assume that the fight would have ended to my favor a lot more quickly. For instance, what if I had perfect Vorpal instead of my current perfect Plaguefire? What if my armor-penetration enchantments were not all blue and were at least rank 7~8? What if my HP was not mere 23k?
Ofcourse, the GWF I've faced didn't seem to be top of the line. He was way too conservative with the use of sprint, so one may argue that I didn't face a real top-end GWF. But then again, I'm not a top-end rogue with a top-end gear either.
The conditions started with a slight HP disadvantage to me. I've also entered the fight in a really bad manner, a mistake straight-out. Fortunately, high deflection saved my bottom. 
The important thing is this: Its possible. It depends on your wits, and practice.
Here's the video:
"Who Says it can't be Done?" http://youtu.be/IGJdwiWc-BA
(ps) Did I mention ranged-knock/prone powers on a melee class is total bullchi*?
This is the technique I dubbed, "Rope-a-Dope" Its basically using the WK's mobility to maximum, the "Rolling Slash" technique particularly useful since 5 points into "Determined Pursuit" will apply a slow to VP -- so with the Rolling Slash, you slow the GWF, and at the same time move out of the way. The key is to engage with VP, and then use the Rolling Slash to move to the opposite direction the GWF is facing.
The basics are simple but very difficult: You try to approach and land smokebombs, and get free hits in while Unstoppable is down. If it is up, disengage and buy time. Repeat the process as much as possible until Action Rush grants you enough AP to use Courage Breaker. Engage in CB and go all-out.. and then break away. Alternately, activating Bloodbath while Unstoppable is up is also very good. As a matter of fact, even better in some cases.
Admittedly, it takes way longer time than the standard stealth/knife-throwing/impact shot builds. Also, zero error tolerance -- meticulous planning and execution required. Also, a standard MI build with ITC would have actually held that node. You can't do that with a WK build. It's not meant for that. Frankly speaking, the build itself is not for a "killing machine" enthusiasts. Like mentioned countless times, the WK PvP build has a different role. Its team support and harassment, not back-door node holding or outright killing people in 1v1.
Another problem, is that it requires a huge space to maneuver in. A much narrower terrain, and then it becomes impossible. Ranged knocks be damned.
However, considering the fact that my gear/stats are for team support, it would be safe to assume that the fight would have ended to my favor a lot more quickly. For instance, what if I had perfect Vorpal instead of my current perfect Plaguefire? What if my armor-penetration enchantments were not all blue and were at least rank 7~8? What if my HP was not mere 23k?
Ofcourse, the GWF I've faced didn't seem to be top of the line. He was way too conservative with the use of sprint, so one may argue that I didn't face a real top-end GWF. But then again, I'm not a top-end rogue with a top-end gear either.
The conditions started with a slight HP disadvantage to me. I've also entered the fight in a really bad manner, a mistake straight-out. Fortunately, high deflection saved my bottom. The important thing is this: Its possible. It depends on your wits, and practice.
Here's the video:
"Who Says it can't be Done?" http://youtu.be/IGJdwiWc-BA
(ps) Did I mention ranged-knock/prone powers on a melee class is total bullchi*?
Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Post edited by kweassa on
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Comments
I understand that you are fed up with everybody using the same build, but this just shows how useless this build is compared to the standard MI build. Nothing in this video would change at all even if you had full BiS rank 10s/perfects when you are using that build. Not to mention that gwf didn't look like much more than some average pugger, which is completely ok I have nothing against them but against a top end gwf you would get killed in 1 rotation no matter the gear, while an MI can effectively stalemate a gwf for several minutes until he makes a minor mistake and the gwf gets lucky with crits.
There are 0 TR's in this game who can kill the very best gwfs who are at the same gear and experience level, it's just not possible atm. My point here is that this build may be fun for pugs but no matter what gear and enchants you have it just won't compete against a MI in ANY way useful to the party. I'm sorry for bashing your thread and I appreciate the effort for the community you made by testing how the WK plays out, but the way it is right now it's just not viable, and I would hate to see new players going the WK route thinking it's in some way better than MI.
If you have any questions contact me in-game @keltz0r
I see nothing at all good about how that fight played out using the WK build.
What matters is "your" opinion on it however. If you have fun playing it, keep doing it man!
Tip: That GWF did nothing but gain a ton of points while you pecked away at him. If your goal is to get kills and mess around with folks than fine, but if your goal is to win a PvP match. You need to contest points.
Why did not you slot LB instead of Smoke bomb? In the video, I even feel like that gwf did not even bother much about your presence...
If your speaking about the specific build, including the choice of powers, it's good because:
(1) tactical use of smokebomb
(2) instantaneous positioning/movement
(3) no escape for low-HP runners
If your speaking about the general use of WK, the reasons would be;
(1) VP: weaker version of Deft Strike but with at least threefold the utility
(2) DS: 5-tick DoT, basically offsets enemy regen to nil, applicable to ALL enemies in visible range
(3) Stealth catching: unless it is a true perma-stealth build that doesn't even let up one moment of visibility, stealth is meaningless against WKs.
I'd use this build because:
(1) Because a MI build is powerless to save a member of your own team rushed by fighters and rogues when they are 50 feet away from the scene, throwing knives and lobbing energy balls to someone else. What are they going to do? Walk that distance and hope you kill two enemies within the next 10 seconds by throwing knives?
(2) Because a MI build has no weapon to use against a whole enemy formation standing their ground, particularly centered by strong clerics. If only there was an opening, a short moment of panic that would queue your team to start the attack and focus one of their DPS classes... what's a MI gonna do? Engage ITC and hope you kill one of them within 5 seconds?
(3) Because the MI builds of late are more and more becoming not all that they're cracked up to be.
(a) Using your own analogy; a single rogue holding up a node against multiple enemies for a long time is what -- usually works against "dumb PuGs". If the enemy team is actually everybit as competent as yours, they have means of flushing you out. You know this is true. Besides, if the enemy also has a TR on par, then they do the same. The effect you have on your team is offset, hence reduced to nil.
(b) Go to the "higher levels" as you say, and even the "squishy" people react a lot more differently, as well as they don't just drop dead with a few puckers of thrown knives and Impact Shots lobbed. They don't just drop dead with one good Lashing Blade like they used to, do they? As the players get better and gear gets higher, people survive way better. On the other hand, GWFs are mean, and GFs can be everybit as much frustrating.
(c) So what do the MI TRs do? They gear more and more and more towards survivability. More regen. More int. More lifesteal. More deflection = less damage. You might argue that the MI build is still way more powerful than a WK build; that it true. But is the difference as powerful enough to be meaningful? Like you said, against dumb PuGs, maybe. But against people with equal level of gear to yours? To a much less extent.
Let's be honest here. Without a ranked queue, or a specific match-making, both you know and I know and everyone playing PvP knows that most of the feats and accomplishments we boast in these forums are, what, played and accomplished against PuGs. Not to mention in many cases, usually the good players have a tendency to at least queue in teams of twos or threes in a semi-premade.
So, not only most of what we're experiencing in playtesting is done against people generally less in skill level than we are, but also most of these happen to a great disadvantage to the opponents in that we usually bring along our own cronies, stooges to watch our backs.
Sure, there may have been some great matches in a real 5 vs 5, premade-vs-premade, elite-vs-elite fights, but does the MI build always work out as disitinctively and successfully as purported to be? Of course not.
I'm not saying premade level, or the "l33T" level is not different. I'm only saying they represent such a small and limited part of the community. Those people you ridicule as being dumb PuGs are the grand and absolute majority of people and they are everybit as much a part of the community (actually even more) as the handful, small numbers of "elite" players.
Most of our experiences in PvP combat are against them. We're really not as much used to fighting the exact same level of premade vs. premade fights, as we'd like to think so.
Even in one of those combats there are always so many excuses. Gear level was different. Our team members weren't optimum. Our best player wasn't here. The team composition was inadequate. On and on... and then the coming ultimatum, "Things would have been different with a real competitive players".
If it works with the grand majority, then is that not the definition of "viable"?
I generally agree with this part. Currently, the GWF combat mechanics are unfortunately and undoubtably "overboard". My delaying tactics works well if the team has players smart enough to NOT target the GWF once Smokebomb is applied, but unfortunately, most people don't look that far (or, expect a rogue to use a crucial debuff skill that actually helps the whole team).
I'd say that's a matter of creativity and imagination. Try think out of the box.
No problems, no qualms.
If it works against PuGs, then it is viable, because the PuGs ARE the PvP. I wouldn't be upset that this build doesn't work with 10% of the player base, and if it works with 90% of the player base to offer a different way to enjoy themselves than going cookie-cutter and dead brains, then that's still a worthy cause IMO.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I admit, holding points is totally out of my element with this build.
This build is for helping your team win a big fight directly. I think the MI builds achieve this purposes as well by means of diverting some of enemy players away from the main battle.
This build is more under the assumption that;
(1) a big 5vs5 fight will happen in the middle node, and the enemy has more ranged than our team
(2) they are grouped and turtled together surrounding a cleric, holding the node
(3) we've got less ranged players, so we are worrying that we'll get too much shot up as we approach
(4) the team needs to push them directly
Yes.. admittedly, a situation most often met in PuG fights, where a well placed AoE daze+slow can shake the ground.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Because I was with a team support setup, much the same reason why I use Plaguefire with Wicked Reminder in usual cases. (Apply that 65% defense reduction, and what the GWF HP bar drop! (well...realistically speaking more like 55% usually))
I only use smokebomb as a choice when my team seems to be generally outmatched... and this was such instance
So my standard choices are;
(1) well matched: Vengeance's Pursuit, Shadow Strike, Wicked Reminder
(2) against HR/CW heavy team: VP, SS, Impact Shot
(3) outmatched: VP, SS, Smokebomb
(4) hopelessly outmatched: go out and die
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You talk a lot about utility, and what the WK can do for his/her team. But I feel that you are over thinking this. PvP fights in general, only last a fiew seconds. Unless its a 1 vs 1 with some top tiered players, those can be lengthy(I've had 15-20 minute battles personally). So as a TR, the best way that you can help your team, is 1.)Capping/back-capping/holding and/or contesting points. 2.)Killing enemies as fast as humanly possible, while not dieing yourself. Neither of which you are able to do with this build.
Now this is a personal preference of course, but I always laugh inside, when I see a TR using Smoke Bomb in PvP. Have I died in a large battle as a result of Smoke Bomb? Sure, being focused is being focused. Have I ever died in a 1 vs 1 against a TR using Smoke Bomb? Not even close...
Perma Stealth builds are going to(generally)be the best at putting nodes in contention, and back capping for obvious reasons. Don't generally do much damage, and against highly geared players generally wont get many kills. Against Pugs they will usually crush and embarrass any class of a lower geared not pvp built player.
Your Stealth based Exec builds, or guys with a type of hybrid build running with Perfect Bilethorns do insane amounts of damage.
When I play my TR, I would venture to say 80% of my damage comes from Duelist Flurry/Bilethorn, with impact shots coming in a definite last. Lesser geared players generally don't survive 2 full DF rotations.
So again, if your having fun with it that's all that matters.
But if you want to help your team in PvP and win, then you have the absolute wrong build imo. Terrible survivability, extremely low damage and minor utility not even worth mentioning.
Wrong way?
I try to take a logical view in arguments like this, so I shall take a logical view in this one. Hopefully, I'm not taking a dumpster-dive into a mangled mess.
Question: Why do we play this game?
Answer: To have entertainment and social interaction in the form of a video game (aka to have fun). At least, that should be the motivation.
Question: Is the optimal way to play the only way worth playing?
Answer: No, it is not. However, the more competitive you get, the more optimally you should spec.
With these thoughts in mind, I argue that playing a WK in PvP is fine. Now, before I present my case, I will admit that MI is better for PvP than WK (at least for the current meta). The MI, to me, is more flexible and survivable than the WK, and in the current health/regen/survive meta, that by itself would make the MI better. However, this does not make the WK poor to the point where it would be an offense to the community to post positive feedback on the WK.
I think playing a WK would be pretty fun and different. I have two MI TRs right now (PvE and PvP) and I wanted to try the new path simply because I thought it would be fun. I made a TR a few days ago and am currently leveling her. Now, I am in a great guild, though it isn't huge or incredibly competitive, so trying to make a top-end TR would only suit my purposes to a point. Therefore, I have no need to make the best TR. I can still have fun in pug PvP without being able to 1v5 the whole team on their point, and I can still be effective.
Here's the main question: is the WK viable enough to use in PvP? I don't see why not. Sure, the video in the OP was not demonstrative of potential for organized premades vs. premades, but I can see the WK being viable. For example, kweassa has been trying (diligently) to find ways that would make the WK competitive with the MI. Instead of just letting the WK fall into complete obscurity, kweassa has continued to look for new techniques and builds. Sure, while it was on the Preview, other players (like yourselves, I'm sure) tested it and were not impressed, but that doesn't merit banning the posting of WK posts on the forums.
What are the differences between a WK and MI? In reality, the only differences people seem to care about are ITC vs. VP and Shocking vs. HK. Let's not forget that Disheartening Strike is actually a nice at-will, and Gloaming is good for certain builds, so I consider them almost equal for PvP. I will discuss each case below.
ITC vs. VP
ITC is superior, in my opinion. Sure, I bet we could almost all agree on that. However, VP does have its own unique perks. The loss in survivability in PvP is pretty large without ITC, but not unlivable for non-premade matches. With VP, the enemy will not get away. With VP, you can teleport to someone and queue an ability to possibly do a double hit almost instantly. I would imagine that VP and Dazing followed by SS would be pretty cool and fun to use. The problem with this is how it fares in organized premades vs. premades. It is far less useful in the current meta for the TR, where backcapping and being invisible is the thing. Why would I want to teleport to my enemy when I'm supposed to be hiding and hitting hard at the same time? Plus, if I do get caught out, I still have ITC to give me time to SS into stealth again. So, ITC is better. However, this doesn't make VP bad. So, why would I tell someone who is testing all sorts of techniques on it to not post anything? That's called a blackout, a shutout, of experimentation, and that is not what a community should do.
Shocking vs. HK
Shocking is superior for obvious reasons. It hits like a truck, goes through defenses, doesn't miss, is ranged (sort of) and can annihilate an opponent at almost any time. HK is a prone with far less damage and some stealth utility on the side if feated. Now, it is pretty clear to me why Shocking is way better, but that doesn't make HK bad. In fact, though I use it, I do not like Shocking. When I use it, I feel like I'm just hitting the I-win button, since it's so strong. So, I typically opt for Whirlwind, despite the fact it isn't as powerful. It still hits very hard, can be hard to dodge (hard to predict in a fast-paced battle) and is AoE, so it can hit multiple opponents. HK, while not as executioner-like, has a lot of utility, like a prone and steath refill. So, why would I suggest anyone coming to the forums (not just high-end players, but those 'casuals' without the same knowledge) to not try the WK?
At-wills
Both are nice. DS has a strong DoT and is ranged. Gloaming can hit pretty hard and, if feated, can really restore a lot of stealth for permas.
Passives
I don't see a lot of discussion on the passives, mainly since these don't make as big a difference as the above. So, no point to blackout WK here.
ITC is better, Shocking is better. VP is nifty, HK has utility. At-wills and passives are simply up for preference. So, the only real contention here is between two skills. Or so it should be. Instead, this is not what the current debate on the thread is about. kweassa showed a video of a rotation that the community (not the whole, but you understand what I mean) did not support. That is fine. Make constructive criticisms, point out flaws, and explain the position of the WK. I highly encourage that. However, saying the WK is essentially useless and not worth playing in PvP and therefore not worth writing anything about for the whole community of players in Neverwinter Online is wrong. I am not a high-end player, yet I visit the forums. I still post. I would love to see more on the WK, even if it isn't the best, because I don't need the best to enjoy the game and still be effective. If kweassa made a thread titled, "WK build that is the best for PvP" then I might have a qualm or two about that, but this is not the case. I want to play a WK because it's different, and I would like to see information regarding the WK on the forums to help me understand the path better.
Of course, MI is optimal. I would know; I have a PvP MI (probably not as geared as everyone here, but not everyone in the game gears their toons to the max). But if the only big difference between MI and WK is two abilities, why hail one and discard the other? The rotation in the video may not the best for a PvP WK. No one knows what it is yet because there hasn't been enough testing on it. Because it's considered bad. So no one tests for it. Because it's bad. It's sort of like a cycle. If someone playing NW wants to play a WK (casually, since the majority of players are not high-end/competitive) there should be guides and information for them to read. Also, there should be more testing to find out what the best rotation is for the WK, since this may not necessarily be it.
Let me end with a quote (because I like quotes and quotes are awesome):
"The only certain barrier to the truth is the assumption you already have it."
So, I like writing long posts. Also, I am just waiting to see someone post "I disagree with everything Ping said". If I see that, I might actually go dumpster-diving. Who can argue that Shocking isn't better than HK?
Feel free to discuss or rebuttal what I posted. I will be waiting, and I will be reasonable.
Didn't read past that as I feel lazy, and thats a huge wall of text. Want to know why I phrased my opinion like that? Because most players who come to read forums WANT HELP to be BETTER in other words, more competetive. Those who play just for fun probably don't care rats a** about forums or guides or such things. Ppl who seek information on forums want to usually get better and by listening to kweassa they won't. Sure they might get better with how to play WK but they shouldn't go WK in the first place. Oh well, not my problem really.
We won that match. It was close, 1000-980, but we won because every time they'd try to push a point I was at, with my team, I'd cripple the tank and it'd turn the team inside out. They weren't use to the GWF dying first. I was horrible. Constantly getting into the fight at the wrong time, not using stealth enough, all in all just played bad. I had 32 assists though and came in 5th overall due to aiding with point capture. It was fun, frustrating, but fun.
The second match, I did a bit better. I flabergasted an MI TR who tried to 1v1 me. They saw DS and just assumed I'd be weak I guess? I don't know. They were following the current meta, ITC, IS, SS. It didn't matter, the dots I had chewed through them, I used wicked reminder and courage breaker. Usually I'd end a 1v1 with me at 90% health to their dead. I was doing better with the spec, but I still was sloppy. It didn't help that the enemy team was 2hr, 2 cw and a TR. No smoke bomb potential.
Third match, I finally found the groove of WK. I weaved in and out of combat, used stealth right. I was hard to kill because I was all over the place. I'd bait GWF's off point, to use VP to leap to the CW before the GWF could prone me and hammer the CW. Unfortunately I didn't have support from the team. As has been said, it's a team based setup. So I often would die because I simply couldn't take 3v1. However, it was fun, very intense and a lot more engaging, imho, than MI.
You can't really say that if something works against pugs its viable, almost anything you come up with will work against pugs if you have the right knowledge on your class and are not in full greens, you also mention that MI will not be able to hold points against real premades on same gear/skill level, and thats wrong, if you are good you can hold the point say 2v1 3v1 for even a minute or two vs very good players and thats more than enough time for your team to arrive and cap the other points. Of course you can't 1v5 them the whole game like pugs but what would you think...
With your build you would just die in 5 seconds with no chance to do anything, and no in the current domination PvP there are 0 things WK is better at that actually matters (killing a cw with 3k hp left running to get a pot because you can teleport to them with wk doesn't count as useful). You said that WK would be helpful in team fights, I would like to know how something that dies like a cw when getting focused makes any difference in team fights (and doing a fraction of the damage a cw is capable of), the damage debuffs are insignificant and be cleansed by a dc any second. The best way right now to play a WK is the same way as MI but without itc and swap it for maybe potb for 1v1s or bait and switch if you are a troll, but once again these powers are nowhere near as useful as itc is.
Concentrated burst damage is how you win team fights, which is still better on an MI than a WK. So MI has more damage, has more BURST damage, has more survivability, has 10x better node holding capabilities, and what does the WK have? The ability to possibly kill a poor cw who is running off for a potion (unless the WK gets bashed by the cw beacuse of no itc).
When you actually post a video where the WK is clearly doing something that is useful for the team to win domination PvP and the MI isn't capable of it, then the forum community will applaud you instead of what I see now which is basically people bashing this thread and saying WK is not useful. Maybe you should show these videos and ideas of yours to other people who you know the class and know what is viable before you post them on the forums for new players to be misguided and competent players to disagree with.
Once again I appreciate your effort but please, there is just no question here of what is good and what is not.
I know how keltz0r comes off in his posts because I have a tendency to do the same thing, but we are not trying to be mean or hurtful. The fact is there are simply too many bad players out there. We try to give them proper information on how to build competitively because we actually want more of a challenge. It is nothing against you personally, even though some comments may come off as hurtful.
Yes I just reread my post and I sound like a total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> thank you stox for making me aware of that lol. Yes you pretty much describe how things are exactly like I would have. Me, you and countless others are tired of meeting terrible players and the lack of competition in this game (yes there are a few guilds that are on par but fighting the same people over and over gets old), this is why I think many people here are so worried about new players getting bad information.
I apologize for being a stickler on word-choice, but I disagree with the term "bad information". In my mind (I think too much) factual information is information. It is not really inherently right or wrong; it's simply a presentation of the state a particular subject is in. Now, the application and interpretation of information can be right or wrong. For example, I just learned the store's doors are unlocked and no one's inside. That's just information. Now, if I chose to go in and help myself, that would be wrong.
So, in my mind, simply presenting what the WK has to offer (whether optimal or not) is information. Therefore, there needs to be at least something for the WK on the forums. However, it would be improper to say how viable the WK is in organized premade matches, as MI is much better. It just is (in the current meta). I understand your concerns; I've mastered my skills in one particular game (not NW) and have come close to world records, and I get pretty annoyed when there's no competition, especially when the players I face try things that are simply wrong/inefficient. More information on the paragon path is needed on the forums, and it needs to be presented correctly. It is not as viable as MI. This does not make it inherently wrong to post ideas for the WK. So, as long as it's known that, as of this moment, the WK is not as powerful as the MI (where the gap becomes more obvious the more competitive you get), there's no reason to discourage testing of the WK.
Since we're here to be constructive (I hope), we should make sure to be informative on the state of the TR, like how MI is currently stronger. We should also be informative on the perks of the WK. As long as players know that the MI is better, those that are really searching to become great players will go MI. I, on the other hand, want to try new things while still being decently effective, so I will be playing around on a WK. In the end, it's all about effective communication.
This thread can already fill a book.
It was never my intention to cause an upstir or a ruckus. Also was not my intention to insist that WK builds are every bit as good as MI builds. My intention was to simply offer an alternative method to enjoying PvP, and of course from this thread we now see the different points of view people have on how they defines PvP.
Obviously in my case, I see more to PvP than just the "cream of the crop" -- from where I stand the way everyday PuGs in their varying levels of skill and gear are equally important than just a handful of elite players in their own league. However, other people see it differently. They choose to define the purpose of PvP as being endlessly competitive -- a strive to reach the very limits of human skill and reflexes, the urge to reach the cutting edge of power and performance.
Our views on PvP may be different, but I don't think any one of it is right or wrong. I mean, obviously, when you love (American) football, you love how the NFL pros perform in the most incredible way, almost seemingly superhuman. But that doesn't mean you go ridiculing or looking down at highschool football, or small league football for children. Its just how people enjoy the game in varying age groups and communities, each in their own way, that matters.
In that sense, we all love PvP.
So some of the more prominent players think my WK build isn't good enough for elite-level games? Cool. That's fine. I'm totally willing to accept that. It's okay, I don't take offense. Perhaps someday I'll be able to prove them wrong by doing well with it, or, perhaps that day will never come, in which case its just one of many failures I've met... but ****, the process of coming up with something new -- that was fun, and that's what counts. Maybe next time I'll come up with an even better version. Who knows?
So lets lighten up a bit guys
Let's try to take the discussion to a more lighter side.
(ps) I've first started playing against other people on-line sometime around the early '90s, with Ultima Online. In those days the term "PvP" wasn't even invented yet. I've been coming up with "odd-ball" builds since those days, so its about full 20 years I've been doing this. Believe me, I've been criticized a lot worse in my day.
I've also been to the "elite level" in a few games -- been there, done that. In the end, as time goes by, you really do get a much wider and relaxed view of PvP. There were times where sacrificing even a few points of damage, or giving out a few deaths to others was unimaginable, but nowadays I find that if the "competition" is too fierce, ironically it kills the whole aspect of competition itself.
Loosen up a bit, guys.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Unfortunately, its very obvious that WK is astronomically subpar compared to the MI, in terms of being competitive in PvP.
That said, if you constantly play VS pugs(which is 90%) of PvP, then yes. Your WK build will probably do fine, against more casual, lesser skilled, lesser geared, incorrectly built players. But against the ladder, I'm afraid you will get crushed 9 times outta 10.
See the problem with PvP in this game is exactly what I just mentioned. 90% of the pvp in this game is all inexperienced incorrectly built players. I don't even group with my guild really anymore in PvP because just the site of our guild name, causes people to quit the match. Literally, you have no idea how frustrating it is to see "/zone Oh, EoA? <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> this I'm out", and poof..were standing there like wtf..we hadn't even started the match yet.
We all like a challenge, but like keltz0r and Stox mentioned, we are tired of playing against the same people, in the same matches. As well as even organizing those particular premade vs premade matches are a giant pain in the *** to even set up.
So guys can get a little uptight when they see threads like this(innocent enough), because they know that if new players start actually using builds like this, the level of play is constantly going to be going down, and not up.
Who are we to say what build you should or should not use? No one, and we are not. But again, to be competitive in PvP in this game there are 2 very important things that a build needs to have. 1.)Survivability, 2.)High Burst Damage/Sustained Damage. If a build does not have those, then you will NOT be able to compete against the veteran pvp'rs. Theres no way around it.
Some people may say "but it has good utility and buffs". No one cares about buffs, or utility in PvP honestly. Most of the actual battles, whether it be 1 vs 1, or 5 vs 5 or whatever, only lasts a matter of seconds. What counts is again, sheer damage, and survivability. If fights were prolonged(i.e, think Raid Boss PvE), then yes. A buffer, or utility type build you would want. But. Like I said. That's just not how it is.
No one is flaming you buddy, I know you understand where we are coming from, just want to clarify that, that we are not some elitist pricks calling you out.
However, as for topic, i hope that research in builds will continue. I played wow in wotlk expansion and i know how boring could be playing against the same exact pg...only with different name.
The OP combo during the hay-day was;
KAL VAS FLAM!
COR POR!
COR POR!
...:D I wonder if anyone's old enough to remember that one.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This actually deserves a separate topic, but to comment on this, its what I've seen with all PvP "elite" members of the communities in the end. That's actually where that level of competition lands you at. Its a lonely place, always playing with the same people all the time, the same handful bunch who can match you in gear and skill, and since the only purpose becomes absolute performance increase, and all other possibilities (if they may be "sub-par" as you've mentioned) are shunned and ridiculed at.
So, in the end, the place those "high level" of people strive to reach, is a place where you meet the same guys over and over again, with exact same builds, exact same team composition, exact same tactics used by both sides. Like I said, been there, done that. It was fun being recognized as a good player, a terrifying one for a while, especially when I was a much younger man with much higher egos and self-awareness
Its not like someone pays your bills to be there, as if you were professional athletes. We do this for fun. But too much of an orientation in competitiveness -- it starts killing the fun.
In the end, it is really the "PuGs" and "low-level people", the large amount of people with fluctuating patterns and situations, that bring out variety and fun. Ironically, the "elites" are the ones who need the "PuGs" the most... and yet, they constantly shun and look away from anything that might suggest them becoming 'weaker'. Its an occupational hazard, I tell ya.
What they don't realize, is that whatever more "competitive" builds they try to advocate, those guys are alone there. Maybe you'll see a new face, get some fresh blood once or twice, but all that loneliness and boredom, it comes with the territory. Many people at the PuG level don't even want to go there. They don't play PvP because they want to be some 'pro' or 'l33T', they do it because they have fun doing all the chaotic fighting and tumblind around.
If those people want something different, its they who need to step down from their egos. Trust me, I've been there.
No offense taken. Like said, twenty years is a long time. I've seen every possible reactions in all sorts of boards.. (lol) You guys are actually some of the more nice and friendly ones, as a matter of fact.
But like it or not, PvP is elitism once you go upto that point. We call it "elite" because the numbers of people that reach that level are limited in the first place. In the end, all that competition leads you to, is boredom, loneliness, and a serious burn-out that makes you just quit the game, or quit pvp in total and just have fun raising alts.
Ultimately, just curb that need to win all the time, need to be the best, and then start looking around and their are a lot of blue oceans where people have a lot of fun with it. Again, an irony -- people who enjoy PvP in the "lower ranks", they tend to enjoy it for a long, long time, because its fun. Because with all that randomness, you never know what might happen. But people at the top? They quit after a while. That's where this all leads to.
Besides, if we start getting some changes to how the queue works and all, the "low level" is going to be a much more fun place... whereas, where you guys are standing at, it will be even more frequent that you meet the same number of premades, the exact same mirror images of your team, over, and over, and over, and over again. That's why I am a bit worried, and that's why I usually try to promote variety -- at the expense of "self gimping".
This is like, a dicussion that's around in the PvP world for years. Perhaps it'll go on forever. I guess we all have to do what we can to enjoy ourselves as much as possible until it lasts.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I have a blast still, after almost a year of non stop pvp in this game. I just don't often group with members of my own guild anymore in PvP, unless its a scheduled pm vs pm.
YOu and I are on the same boat. I remember UO like it was yesterday. I dabbled a bit, but my cousin was a hard core pk'r. Grandmaster at owning people, and I remember him casting those blade spirits and wrecking people in the dungeon with all the belrogs in it..heh I played EQ 1 on Vallon Zek for almost 9 years. PvP was real, it was ruthless and cut throat. Not like the PvP they have in games nowadays.
Problem we have here, is people don't want to even try. We cant even call them care-bears anymore. Its something much, much less. I solo Q 99% of the time in PvP, and a large majority of matches, an entire team will quit in the first 20 seconds. That's beyond pathetic. That's a whole new level of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. This is what people like Stox and Kheltz0r are trying to (help) fix. By "recommending", and encouraging players to build a PvP character properly. It has nothing to do with elitism or being end-game mentality.
Having something other than normal, to explore the potentials is needed. Maybe there'll be a breakthrough that'll show WK's can gank GWFs and the meta will shift. In the mean time, for most people trying to get into PVP, it's a good idea to run the main line MI. Get use to it, before branching out. I actually recommend that very thing every time I can in the Library. Go with storm mage. Get use to the 60s game, then try MoF for the utility and difference it brings.
There is just one thing Wk is better than a mi in pvp.... being a perma-troll and withering down opponents from range, just because he has unlimited ammo which doesnt remove his stealth. because the only defense to not getting ccd without itc is staying out of detection range, but at least u can contend nodes for some extent of time, but still, good oponents will track u down. So in the end it is inferior because u dont have the oh **** itc button and cant afford to use burst encounters because they leave u vulnerable.
That is basically my wk build,
+25% rsi with 10% regen
ss, bns for the trolling
and potb cos + ds for the life draining.
I can hold nodes for very long and force many players on me with it... but once experienced players get in there, **** hits the fan as it really is not that hard to counter a perma.
you pop smoke bomb i go itc and spam is on u how is that decent replacement.