BiS PvP CW should have 50% chance to kill BiS PvP GWF, if both experienced. Simple as that.
There is absolutely NO REASON in this world one class should have advantages over another. You don't get to have god-classes, each with fair chances against the others.
Other MMOs solved this by offering large pools of abilities, so a (skilled) class knows what to use against other classes. Large action bars as well.
Also other MMOs give squishies fair chance by giving them stuff such as invisibility, diverse shields, mirror images, speed increases, heals, immunities and so on.
In this game, some classes lack proper tools to deal with others. To have a slim chance you have to spec in PvE-useless PvP specs, and the game doesn't even have dual spec.
Crazy, I know.
i agree that best possible thing for pvp would be 50-50 chance similar skill gear and its not even close .but then it should be same
in pve i close my eyes spam some chill,coi,shard,steal time like it says in quide, all is dead takes no skill at all.i done fh in 3 cw group when hrimnir died we did 2 rotation each wiped all the ads in 30 sec.now how is that control wizard?
cw need realy good buff in pvp but neds nerf in aoe by 80% lol.
Ya u have a high IQ i see. 11k gs makes 70% or more blue def/deflect/regen DC cry for cannot participate in pvp. Me with full epics and high prophet (main set) only near 12k gs, what about the others? If we use blue regen items is that mean that we must use rank 8-9 enchant to reach 11k gs only to play pvp? (Your) Good idea? really.....*facepalm*
Quite simply: your GS is low, your mates GS was probably low, your enemy was well geared and build. You ganged up on him and, as i explained in another topic, all you do attacking this way with no coordination whatsoever, is to make him go unstoppable more, which allows him to regenerate more, which allows him to go unstoppable even more.
Way to go: first, you've to be with comparable gear and build for PvP. Then, you've to make the GF prone him, then unload all your encounters/ DPS while he's proned. He will then go unstoppable and regenerate. You can try to attack with at wills while avoiding him. If you've a DoT power/ enchant, it will slow down a bit his regeneration. But during this time, main focus is to avoid his prone Attacks and make him waste his unstoppable. Once his unstoppable is over, prone him again (chain prone if it's a GF doing it) and DPS while he's down.
Well, no, people complain loudest about Sent IV GWF because it's incredibly tanky, nearly CC immune DPS with an at-will gapcloser and three prones.
First: it's 2 prones as IV (frontline and takedown). Roar is root, flourish is stun. No prone.
Second: people complain loudest against sentinel GWFs cause they don't know how to deal with them. Like the OP: everything he mentioned is wrong: tactic, GS, knowledge of the class. All wrong. Don't know the build, but if the damage was THAT low...may be it's not really the right build to PvP.
A good team GF+CW, or GF+TR, or GF+HR, with good tactic and focused DPS can take down any sentinel, if the GS is comparable.
A tanky PvP DC can stall him.
A good perma stealth TR can stall him or kill him depending on the situation.
Problem is, too often you see people in pugs doing the wrong thing. Never seen a premade in any of the videos posted so far by top guilds, having problems with GWF tanks.
Implement a tier/ladder that sets people up against others closer to their gear and skill ability and then you will have fixed most of the complaints.
1. GS-based matching system
2. Heavy, heavy desertion penalties
3. Fix scoring method to stop the lame-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> "node-trading" game rigging
4. More incentive to actually fight
5. Enchantment stones available as rewards in Trade of Blades
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Of course this no different than any other class, just an example of a geared class with a certain build.
People have complained about DPS GF that kill them in 1 rotation of encounters.
People have complained about "1 shot TR" and Perma stealth TR
People have complained about "1 shot Ice Knife CW" and perma CC CW
Of course people actually rejoiced that DC can make a tanky/heal/regen that survives
Now people just complain loudest about Sent GWF because they have access to IV path.
I personally have a Sent GWF that has been 60 for months, but just respecced to IV. I am good in PVP, but not godly because I don't have 15k+. Most people don't...but more people are getting there which just means newer players are a little more likely to run into this and other super geared classes. Same thing in L2 when your pvp vs someone with full epic jewels and you had none.
Please.
Let's compare a bit how many complaints there are about GWF, how many about TR...
... and then GF, CW, DC.
You will find out a HUGE amount of complaining about GWFs, then again almost as many about TRs, very very few about GF and virtually none about CWs and DCs. Lately even experienced PvP players started mentioning the unfairness of fighting against GWFs, so you cannot accuse posters any longer "you need to l2p, get more gear, get better build" etc. Not only that... but good PvP GWFs themselves started topics in Barracks about how their class is out of balance and god mode is fun for a while but... it gets boring. Some guys seeking a challenge even play other classes and mostly stopped playing GWF.
Now.
You don't think there's a correlation about how these classes perform in PvP and the amount of complaining?
You know GWFs are overpowered when they complain about not being able to kill someone.
As in: "WTF, why didnt I just 1 shot you? Are you hacking? If I can't kill your whole team, you must be cheating somehow."
And: "FFS, I hate Rangers, they always get away."
Ya u have a high IQ i see. 11k gs makes 70% or more blue def/deflect/regen DC cry for cannot participate in pvp. Me with full epics and high prophet (main set) only near 12k gs, what about the others? If we use blue regen items is that mean that we must use rank 8-9 enchant to reach 11k gs only to play pvp? (Your) Good idea? really.....*facepalm*
You must have high IQ if you so smartly notice a joke in my post You want to go toe-to-toe with gwf? Then spec for pvp, not pve. Mostly people whine because they go with pve build to try pvp, and when they met a pvp specced char they got destroyed. One shotting CW is possible if CW got 20k life, almost no deff/deflect. But guess what? No pvp CW have less then 26k. GWF are OP? Sure. PvP DC is OP too for pve char.
Everytime a GWF pop unstoppable he heals for 5%( if feated ) and gain 8-16& HP as Temporary HP.
That is why the more you hit him the harder to kill..
It is much more than 5% depending on gear and specs. Mine is only 9k (NUB!!!) and is built for unstoppable to give me back roughly 1/2 or more health if I tap it when he is at a specific low health.
and "over powered" is a relative term. I definitely prefer boosting other classes over nerfing certain ones. I still don't think the way they nerfed Stalwart Bulwark was right. If that was not nerfed, GF's in that T1 set would be giving GWFs a run for their money. The Guardian Fighter Conquerer in (un-nerfed) Stalwart Bulwark vs the GWF IV Sentinel in in T2 would be an interesting match.
GWF tank is meant to regenerate at a fast rate and Unstoppable is meant to boost the GWF power (both defensive, offensive and cc resistance) when he's facing against multiple enemies. That is the role of a sentinel in PvP.
The GWF is the one sent alone to contest the enemy base, usually against multiple enemies.
The GWF is the one class that just eats all the damage coming at him.
The GWF is the one, if used properly, with enough mobility to run at the CW/ DC of his team, stand around him to intercept the damage coming at him from HRs and TRs, messing with their aims, and then hunt them down.
So, what is the GWF best at? Absorbing damage, high amount of damage, often from multiple enemies, and turn it into a powerful weapon against his enemies.
What is he weak against? Prone. Can't go unstoppable when proned. Eat more damage when proned, often more than it's required to fill the determination bar.
I'l lsay it again: a GWF tank can be taken down by either very high, very focused DPS from a very strong TR, by a strong offensive GF that can use the challenge power (double damage) over him and then stunlock him to Death, by a GF+ any DPS class combo that first prone him, and then proceed to DPS him down. Can be locked into a stall by a tank DC with ease. Can locked into a stall by a good PvP TR (as i said other times, some TRs can go from dodge immune to iTC to vanishing into stealth, leaving very few instants of vulnerability).
A GWF is a easy target for a CW nuking from above, since he can't block, dodge or avoid damage in any way.
You just need focused DPS instead of brainless half-assed damage.
You will find out a HUGE amount of complaining about GWFs, then again almost as many about TRs, very very few about GF and virtually none about CWs and DCs.
Aside from DC which noone complains about (I even said this in my post), I have seen quite a lot of complaints about all the other classes. Just because you haven't doesn't mean they don't happen.
Also, lets not pretend like I am some 17k GS GWF who says "nothing is wrong" because I don't have that good of gear. I am aware of the level of power a nicely geared GWF can bring, but I am also aware of how much dmg CW's and TR's can go and how some tanks take no dmg and some tanks prone lock you to death. It happens.
Foundry - Fight Club? (nw-dluqbofu7)
- JailBreak (in development)
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Aside from DC which noone complains about (I even said this in my post), I have seen quite a lot of complaints about all the other classes. Just because you haven't doesn't mean they don't happen.
Also, lets not pretend like I am some 17k GS GWF who says "nothing is wrong" because I don't have that good of gear. I am aware of the level of power a nicely geared GWF can bring, but I am also aware of how much dmg CW's and TR's can go and how some tanks take no dmg and some tanks prone lock you to death. It happens.
Yeah, people complain about CWs - in PvE
There was basically ONE lonely "complaint" about CWs for example in the last weeks, some guy asked in barracks about them, to understand how to face them better.
There are some, very rare complaints about GFs and their high-damage prone chains.
There are pretty frequent allusions at the HR class and its broken mechanics. This is understandable, HRs are new.
Forums often see complaints about TRs and permastealth. Half are legit, half are new players not yet understanding the class and in a learning process.
Since M2, the forums are pretty much host to a serious anti-GWF sentiment, based solely on PvP.
There must be a reason for how complaints are spread.
GWF tank is meant to regenerate at a fast rate and Unstoppable is meant to boost the GWF power (both defensive, offensive and cc resistance) when he's facing against multiple enemies. That is the role of a sentinel in PvP.
The GWF is the one sent alone to contest the enemy base, usually against multiple enemies.
The GWF is the one class that just eats all the damage coming at him.
The GWF is the one, if used properly, with enough mobility to run at the CW/ DC of his team, stand around him to intercept the damage coming at him from HRs and TRs, messing with their aims, and then hunt them down.
So, what is the GWF best at? Absorbing damage, high amount of damage, often from multiple enemies, and turn it into a powerful weapon against his enemies.
What is he weak against? Prone. Can't go unstoppable when proned. Eat more damage when proned, often more than it's required to fill the determination bar.
I'l lsay it again: a GWF tank can be taken down by either very high, very focused DPS from a very strong TR, by a strong offensive GF that can use the challenge power (double damage) over him and then stunlock him to Death, by a GF+ any DPS class combo that first prone him, and then proceed to DPS him down. Can be locked into a stall by a tank DC with ease. Can locked into a stall by a good PvP TR (as i said other times, some TRs can go from dodge immune to iTC to vanishing into stealth, leaving very few instants of vulnerability).
A GWF is a easy target for a CW nuking from above, since he can't block, dodge or avoid damage in any way.
You just need focused DPS instead of brainless half-assed damage.
Sorry, but that's just a crock. Saying that "focused DPS is a solution", is like saying "there is no solution".
How do you kill a class that;
(1) has high defense levels
(2) regenerates lost health almost as fast as it is lost
(3) hits as hard as a truck
(4) multiple knockdown-prones
(5) those chain KDs being ranged, so swinging in any general direction blindly even picks off stealthers
(6) runs faster than most horses
(7) immune to CCs ??
Answer: kill him.
...what the hell kind of stupid answer is this? In order to deal damage, you have to be able to use attack powers in the first place. So, how do you suggest people "focus the gwf" when they're busy knocked down, knocked up, knocked backwards, and getting plain smashed over the skull when this freak is literally "unstoppable", and would still take a combined efforts of 2~3 people in focusing to bring down at a window of merely 2~5 seconds before he goes back into unstoppable and does the Hulk Smash 1-button mashing no-brain death charge again?
Sure, I can take down a gwf on my own with enough effort and time. But PvP is not 1vs1. When their team has two GWFs and we have none, and when you need combined efforts of 2~3 people to bring it down quick, you send two people to take care of 1 GWF, the rest 3 to take care of the other GWF... then who's gonna stand up against the rest of the three enemy team members who are now having all sorts of fun in a freebie pew-pew turkey-shoot contest, hiding behind the gwfreaks?
This, is the largest problem. GWFreaks have too much of a role. It doesn't matter if you have the best player in your team who can meticulously tear gwfs apart. What really matters is that the effort put into stopping/neutering ONE gwf on the battlefield is staggering enough. Stopping TWO becomes almost impossible unless you're with the game's finest PvP premade or something, and the only tactical and effective solution in stopping the gwfs becomes having an even more powerful gwf in your own team.
THAT's not balance. THAT, is the very definition of "OP". Something so powerful and influential in combat, that the only way to stopping it becomes having one of the same in your team.
Looking from a team-dynamic perspective, it is hard to deny that the gwfs are just stupid-easy "I WIN" mode. Having a gwf on your side makes the enemy focus on him, which means in turn, we will be focusing on all of them one by one without so much as a single bolt of lightning flung our way, because all of the opponents will be so busy trying to evade and avoid that crazy gwfreak just charging their way like a big train wreck. There's busted balance for ya.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
What is he weak against? Prone. Can't go unstoppable when proned. Eat more damage when proned, often more than it's required to fill the determination bar.
This is but ONE, SINGULAR weakness, in a sea of cool&powerful features. Are we even trying to be serious in this discussion here? What if your team doesn't have a guy that can prone or prones on long cooldowns?
Also, weakness to prone is not GWF-characteristic, is shared by ALL classes.
Make my CW be only weak to prones, and we're cool.
just make unstoppable mitigation add multiplicatively.
Move deep gash further up the destroyer tree.
all fixed. And shouldnt effect PvE much. (gwfs have far too much mitigation for PvE anyway compared to everything else)
This. *thumbs up* Would be great if it were a T4 Destroyer Paragon Feat instead of a T2. And if possible, change the tooltip of Deep Gash to something that matches the current bugged version of Deep Gash. It's so useful right now.
Or, remove temp HP entirely and add something else equally useful in return.
I'd hate to be "that guy", but someone has to say it: you don't win by getting kills, you win solely based on the score. This is domination, not death match. Yes, GWFs are next to unbeatable in 1v1s but nobody forces you to fight them. I see so many people just smashing their faces into random GWFs in hopes of killing them with their squishy ranger instead of actually helping out their team. I have no idea why everyone thinks that class balance should be adjusted for 1v1 pvp scenarios... We can already see what happened to GF after the Devs took the same approach.
A GWF is a easy target for a CW nuking from above, since he can't block, dodge or avoid damage in any way.
You just need focused DPS instead of brainless half-assed damage.
Maybe for very very strong 2 CW, but usually GWF with good build is like god on arena and this is sick... i found this video with GWF and i dont know what to say... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36CKVSfNQbg
Maybe for very very strong 2 CW, but usually GWF with good build is like god on arena and this is sick... i found this video with GWF and i dont know what to say... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36CKVSfNQbg
Prime example of why people think GWF is op. He is way more skilled and geared than his opponents and the matchmaking system is lame as hell for ever letting those people play together. I met many GWFs that got utterly destroyed by any class simply because they had no idea how to pvp. Also a CW can do pretty much all shown in that video, just from further away.
Comments
i agree that best possible thing for pvp would be 50-50 chance similar skill gear and its not even close .but then it should be same
in pve i close my eyes spam some chill,coi,shard,steal time like it says in quide, all is dead takes no skill at all.i done fh in 3 cw group when hrimnir died we did 2 rotation each wiped all the ads in 30 sec.now how is that control wizard?
cw need realy good buff in pvp but neds nerf in aoe by 80% lol.
Ridiculous solution.
Implement a tier/ladder that sets people up against others closer to their gear and skill ability and then you will have fixed most of the complaints.
Way to go: first, you've to be with comparable gear and build for PvP. Then, you've to make the GF prone him, then unload all your encounters/ DPS while he's proned. He will then go unstoppable and regenerate. You can try to attack with at wills while avoiding him. If you've a DoT power/ enchant, it will slow down a bit his regeneration. But during this time, main focus is to avoid his prone Attacks and make him waste his unstoppable. Once his unstoppable is over, prone him again (chain prone if it's a GF doing it) and DPS while he's down.
First: it's 2 prones as IV (frontline and takedown). Roar is root, flourish is stun. No prone.
Second: people complain loudest against sentinel GWFs cause they don't know how to deal with them. Like the OP: everything he mentioned is wrong: tactic, GS, knowledge of the class. All wrong. Don't know the build, but if the damage was THAT low...may be it's not really the right build to PvP.
A good team GF+CW, or GF+TR, or GF+HR, with good tactic and focused DPS can take down any sentinel, if the GS is comparable.
A tanky PvP DC can stall him.
A good perma stealth TR can stall him or kill him depending on the situation.
Problem is, too often you see people in pugs doing the wrong thing. Never seen a premade in any of the videos posted so far by top guilds, having problems with GWF tanks.
1. GS-based matching system
2. Heavy, heavy desertion penalties
3. Fix scoring method to stop the lame-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> "node-trading" game rigging
4. More incentive to actually fight
5. Enchantment stones available as rewards in Trade of Blades
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Please.
Let's compare a bit how many complaints there are about GWF, how many about TR...
... and then GF, CW, DC.
You will find out a HUGE amount of complaining about GWFs, then again almost as many about TRs, very very few about GF and virtually none about CWs and DCs. Lately even experienced PvP players started mentioning the unfairness of fighting against GWFs, so you cannot accuse posters any longer "you need to l2p, get more gear, get better build" etc. Not only that... but good PvP GWFs themselves started topics in Barracks about how their class is out of balance and god mode is fun for a while but... it gets boring. Some guys seeking a challenge even play other classes and mostly stopped playing GWF.
Now.
You don't think there's a correlation about how these classes perform in PvP and the amount of complaining?
I personally think there is.
As in: "WTF, why didnt I just 1 shot you? Are you hacking? If I can't kill your whole team, you must be cheating somehow."
And: "FFS, I hate Rangers, they always get away."
(Real comments from a GWF last night in PvP)
You must have high IQ if you so smartly notice a joke in my post
It is much more than 5% depending on gear and specs. Mine is only 9k (NUB!!!) and is built for unstoppable to give me back roughly 1/2 or more health if I tap it when he is at a specific low health.
Jugger Conq GF
....
Jugger Conq GF
....
The GWF is the one sent alone to contest the enemy base, usually against multiple enemies.
The GWF is the one class that just eats all the damage coming at him.
The GWF is the one, if used properly, with enough mobility to run at the CW/ DC of his team, stand around him to intercept the damage coming at him from HRs and TRs, messing with their aims, and then hunt them down.
So, what is the GWF best at? Absorbing damage, high amount of damage, often from multiple enemies, and turn it into a powerful weapon against his enemies.
What is he weak against? Prone. Can't go unstoppable when proned. Eat more damage when proned, often more than it's required to fill the determination bar.
I'l lsay it again: a GWF tank can be taken down by either very high, very focused DPS from a very strong TR, by a strong offensive GF that can use the challenge power (double damage) over him and then stunlock him to Death, by a GF+ any DPS class combo that first prone him, and then proceed to DPS him down. Can be locked into a stall by a tank DC with ease. Can locked into a stall by a good PvP TR (as i said other times, some TRs can go from dodge immune to iTC to vanishing into stealth, leaving very few instants of vulnerability).
A GWF is a easy target for a CW nuking from above, since he can't block, dodge or avoid damage in any way.
You just need focused DPS instead of brainless half-assed damage.
Also, lets not pretend like I am some 17k GS GWF who says "nothing is wrong" because I don't have that good of gear. I am aware of the level of power a nicely geared GWF can bring, but I am also aware of how much dmg CW's and TR's can go and how some tanks take no dmg and some tanks prone lock you to death. It happens.
- JailBreak (in development)
Yeah, people complain about CWs - in PvE
There was basically ONE lonely "complaint" about CWs for example in the last weeks, some guy asked in barracks about them, to understand how to face them better.
There are some, very rare complaints about GFs and their high-damage prone chains.
There are pretty frequent allusions at the HR class and its broken mechanics. This is understandable, HRs are new.
Forums often see complaints about TRs and permastealth. Half are legit, half are new players not yet understanding the class and in a learning process.
Since M2, the forums are pretty much host to a serious anti-GWF sentiment, based solely on PvP.
There must be a reason for how complaints are spread.
Sorry, but that's just a crock. Saying that "focused DPS is a solution", is like saying "there is no solution".
How do you kill a class that;
(1) has high defense levels
(2) regenerates lost health almost as fast as it is lost
(3) hits as hard as a truck
(4) multiple knockdown-prones
(5) those chain KDs being ranged, so swinging in any general direction blindly even picks off stealthers
(6) runs faster than most horses
(7) immune to CCs ??
Answer: kill him.
...what the hell kind of stupid answer is this? In order to deal damage, you have to be able to use attack powers in the first place. So, how do you suggest people "focus the gwf" when they're busy knocked down, knocked up, knocked backwards, and getting plain smashed over the skull when this freak is literally "unstoppable", and would still take a combined efforts of 2~3 people in focusing to bring down at a window of merely 2~5 seconds before he goes back into unstoppable and does the Hulk Smash 1-button mashing no-brain death charge again?
Sure, I can take down a gwf on my own with enough effort and time. But PvP is not 1vs1. When their team has two GWFs and we have none, and when you need combined efforts of 2~3 people to bring it down quick, you send two people to take care of 1 GWF, the rest 3 to take care of the other GWF... then who's gonna stand up against the rest of the three enemy team members who are now having all sorts of fun in a freebie pew-pew turkey-shoot contest, hiding behind the gwfreaks?
This, is the largest problem. GWFreaks have too much of a role. It doesn't matter if you have the best player in your team who can meticulously tear gwfs apart. What really matters is that the effort put into stopping/neutering ONE gwf on the battlefield is staggering enough. Stopping TWO becomes almost impossible unless you're with the game's finest PvP premade or something, and the only tactical and effective solution in stopping the gwfs becomes having an even more powerful gwf in your own team.
THAT's not balance. THAT, is the very definition of "OP". Something so powerful and influential in combat, that the only way to stopping it becomes having one of the same in your team.
Looking from a team-dynamic perspective, it is hard to deny that the gwfs are just stupid-easy "I WIN" mode. Having a gwf on your side makes the enemy focus on him, which means in turn, we will be focusing on all of them one by one without so much as a single bolt of lightning flung our way, because all of the opponents will be so busy trying to evade and avoid that crazy gwfreak just charging their way like a big train wreck. There's busted balance for ya.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This is but ONE, SINGULAR weakness, in a sea of cool&powerful features. Are we even trying to be serious in this discussion here? What if your team doesn't have a guy that can prone or prones on long cooldowns?
Also, weakness to prone is not GWF-characteristic, is shared by ALL classes.
Make my CW be only weak to prones, and we're cool.
Move deep gash further up the destroyer tree.
all fixed. And shouldnt effect PvE much. (gwfs have far too much mitigation for PvE anyway compared to everything else)
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
This. *thumbs up* Would be great if it were a T4 Destroyer Paragon Feat instead of a T2. And if possible, change the tooltip of Deep Gash to something that matches the current bugged version of Deep Gash. It's so useful right now.
Or, remove temp HP entirely and add something else equally useful in return.
Maybe for very very strong 2 CW, but usually GWF with good build is like god on arena and this is sick... i found this video with GWF and i dont know what to say... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36CKVSfNQbg
Prime example of why people think GWF is op. He is way more skilled and geared than his opponents and the matchmaking system is lame as hell for ever letting those people play together. I met many GWFs that got utterly destroyed by any class simply because they had no idea how to pvp. Also a CW can do pretty much all shown in that video, just from further away.