We just beat a 3 gwf gf dc comp by 1000-double digit... we run 2 cw 2 tr 1 gf nothing fancy their comp is so much better and both team are geared premade.
as not have any respect for people who , in the name of balance , asking for a nerf to gwf in pvp , but not saying anything about the pve , I'll answer it here, that comes from a good intention :
" 3 . Deep Gash damage multiplier on encounters needs to be fixed , and Insitgators / Destroyers need buffs later in the paths where sentinels can not get to Them . "
I will appeal to your common sense .
If the deep gash is working as it should, then it was of interest devs increase the damage of the sentinel in pve too ( the class is dps , even had the same priority in partys that the rogue , and not the gf ) ie it will be necessary to increase the sentinel damage by other means that will not be so much a controlled deep gash ....
yes , it would be hell on earth .
If the deep gash is not working as it should, then once repaired , nor the destroyer or the instigator will receive buffs that is not the intent that both do good damage . this was a miscalculation .
in any case , if you bother the supposed bug , why you're still using the deep gash ? I do not canceled spinning strike to be immortal in pve / pvp at the time of the beta .
Summary : any campaign for gwf / sentinel should be done about the extraordinary tank ... but I think the game has major problems .
So i see the same response to counter these Gwfs is to get one or more ppl with you to fight them in a 5 vs 5 game if something is not wrong this scenario. The Gwf imbalance the whole team dynamics because he/she don't need to bring someone to help them fight someone on another team. What is more insulting is alot of these gwfs are not skilled, the IV Sentinel Gwf has to many crutches to cover their mistake in recovering, you can't tell who is a bad or goodplayer with this spec. All you need is high regen and deflect you have skilled coupled with unstoppable and Tr.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Do you think I *want* to go 1v1 vs the tank GWF that hits huge? no. I want to be able to keep my range while he's in the mix up of melee and shoot him. When the GWF picks a target, it doesn't matter how many others are on him. No CC due to unstoppable, so all that happens is the target gets hammered unless they fight back. I'm forced to 1v1 against the GWF because I can't get away. If I kite away from the group (which is hard to do, due to tr) then I'm alone dealing with the tanky DPS. If I don't, then the GWF generally ignores the group to focus on the target.
I had this happen to me last night in a couple of PVP matches. The GWF would target me (as the HR) and chase me down. Others would hit on him, so it was 3v1, but since he was in unstoppable, there wasn't anything stopping the tr to keep glued to me, which made it equal to 1v1. Yes, when unstoppable was down, we could stop him. However, the regen was insane on that one, which dragged fights out. A lot. I realize there are other specs to GWF. Those specs fall in line with what everyone else can do. It's the one spec that the majority play due to what it does, that is creating the poor situation.
This is a lie even if we go unstoppable we cant escape grasp & root skills not even treathening rush help us.
Not mentioning agans 2 hr nobody have a little chance not even perma rouge.
two 9 k GS HR can kill 18 k gs GWF with eas simple y cant escape from the dam plants:) even if y use Avalache y go up in the air and pulled back by magic bean root in the air.
5 sent would be the most OP premade combo easily but who would play against them? sure they can queue into a pug match but they will just leave, and nobody in their right mind will fight 5 gwf in an organized premade. Even 2 gwf most premades wont play against, most of them want a rainbow comp but usually its ok to have 2 of 1 class also. 2 gwf's is very op already let alone 5. If you think it's not op and want to face 1 just pm me... same handle as on forum
keltz0r we already played against, i know your toon.but ask your teammember whos the most overpowered class in the game atm. revrac will answer you, for sure
and just in fact: 2 gwf are easy countered, just saw it, did it, and know that
GWF is easily countered by 2 HR...yep it's also easily countered by 2 GWF, or 2 GF or 2 very good CWs or TRs.
Also, once the HR bind is fixed so that it doesn't work through immunities (assuming that is fixed), they won't be that impressive against a GWF.
Are you saying 1 HR countered a GWF?
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stickyjonesMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
GWF is easily countered by 2 HR...yep it's also easily countered by 2 GWF, or 2 GF or 2 very good CWs or TRs.
Also, once the HR bind is fixed so that it doesn't work through immunities (assuming that is fixed), they won't be that impressive against a GWF.
Are you saying 1 HR countered a GWF?
1 HR with his 30 sec artefact and none cooldowns can counter a gwf for sure. if u dont know what i mean, u dont know that the ranger is broken as it can be. he can reset cooldowns even on pots, soulforge etc. what would u do vs this kind of HR? right, u can hope to catch him, and all your encounter are crittin, and that wont happen 10/10 times.
GWF is easily countered by 2 HR...yep it's also easily countered by 2 GWF, or 2 GF or 2 very good CWs or TRs.
Also, once the HR bind is fixed so that it doesn't work through immunities (assuming that is fixed), they won't be that impressive against a GWF.
Are you saying 1 HR countered a GWF?
Whit high recovery easy . Yesterday i meet the new perma hide HR unkillable big dmg whit focused shoot .
Y can't see nothing only 10-20 k critts.
But i dont start new topic whit owerpowered perma hide HR.
Because after m2 we got balance my hardest oponets are new anoited champ (regen+ls)DC ,i aways need backup to kill it .
But i dont start new topic whit owerpowered hihg regen ls Anoited Champ DC .
After m2 the biggest hit got the good old GF they must be realy buffed up to other classes, my suggestion changing tab on him.
Try playing top tier PVP.. TR is still the king.. so gtfo GWF.. there is still a better class for top tier pvp
Of course in top tier PvP TR is king. Because Perfect Bilethorn builds are specifically build to battle GWFs and TRs. Also it's a fact that to get to top-tier rogue, it requires much more skill than being a scary GWF. Also the P.Bilethorn/2k Recovery Rogue requires such a serious investment in gear and practice time (landing flurry, synchronising immunity+stealth) that those build are much more rare than a 2/2 Titan-Vigilant GWF that happened to get a P.Vorpal and 3 epic artifacts. Probably that's why great rogues are so rare, while GWFs can go to good status overnight.
However you missed the entire point of the thread, and your response generated quite some drama about skills, hard earned gear and top tier premades. I guess people just wanted to share, so we have another thread about GWFs supermacy.
The initital point was not that. I guess the OP, and myself are saying that Threatening rush as it is now, shouldn't exist in the arsenal of GWF. Simple as that.
* Notorious Dwarven Bear Cavalry Leader *
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Of course in top tier PvP TR is king. Because Perfect Bilethorn builds are specifically build to battle GWFs and TRs. Also it's a fact that to get to top-tier rogue, it requires much more skill than being a scary GWF. Also the P.Bilethorn/2k Recovery Rogue requires such a serious investment in gear and practice time (landing flurry, synchronising immunity+stealth) that those build are much more rare than a 2/2 Titan-Vigilant GWF that happened to get a P.Vorpal and 3 epic artifacts. Probably that's why great rogues are so rare, while GWFs can go to good status overnight.
However you missed the entire point of the thread, and your response generated quite some drama about skills, hard earned gear and top tier premades. I guess people just wanted to share, so we have another thread about GWFs supermacy.
The initital point was not that. I guess the OP, and myself are saying that Threatening rush as it is now, shouldn't exist in the arsenal of GWF. Simple as that.
Yes both of y asked for nerf..
But i can always contra nerfs .
I need to do only 1 thing ,remove my enchants pick some sett from guid bank & woala same owerpowered HR or TR or CW or DC unkillable whit high dps then you will come back on forums and start new thread nerf this beacuse its OWERPOWERED.
First of all nerfed DC then nerfed GF then nerfed GWF then nerfed TR then nerfed DC then nerfed TR agan then nerfed GWF agan then nerfed GF agan then nerfed DC more then nerfed GWF more and agan TR and finaly HV sett nerf for CW ...
What shoud i say to this ? NERF anything ower 17k GS so they hard worked or payed chars become weak agan so they need to invest another 300-400 euro to buy zen and sell it for ad,and build up new char ,or they need to grind like hell ,or need to use agan glinch and bugs to keep alive or killing boss.
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited January 2014
My advice try this Nerf any one just not my char....
Easy solution for all y problems ..
Or y can try this y buy ZEN and sell it for ad and make y self immortal.
Both option a good anganst owerpowered Threatening rush:)
But realy if y insult ppl like this y will get the same answer. I dont want to be a jerk ,but i have a 9k gs GWF too and its not soo owerpowered like my main, Threatening rush deal with him only 1000 dmg i die with him on every corner of dpvp beacuse i dont wanted to spend money on 10 chars .
Of course in top tier PvP TR is king. Because Perfect Bilethorn builds are specifically build to battle GWFs and TRs. Also it's a fact that to get to top-tier rogue, it requires much more skill than being a scary GWF. Also the P.Bilethorn/2k Recovery Rogue requires such a serious investment in gear and practice time (landing flurry, synchronising immunity+stealth) that those build are much more rare than a 2/2 Titan-Vigilant GWF that happened to get a P.Vorpal and 3 epic artifacts. Probably that's why great rogues are so rare, while GWFs can go to good status overnight.
However you missed the entire point of the thread, and your response generated quite some drama about skills, hard earned gear and top tier premades. I guess people just wanted to share, so we have another thread about GWFs supermacy.
The initital point was not that. I guess the OP, and myself are saying that Threatening rush as it is now, shouldn't exist in the arsenal of GWF. Simple as that.
There are a couple of things that have made GWF viable in pve again.. After being completely shut out for months.. One of them is threatening rush..
So according to you lets make 100% of the GWF community suffer.. Who have suffered the most in order to protect 20% of the community in pvp??
There is no logic.. Look at the responses people are asking the class to be gutted... People value there own pvp experience over the better future of the game...
And oh you say top tier TR is king.. But wait lets need the GWF... There is no logic...
I'd be perfectly fine with Threatening Rush animation cancelling going away... Hakuna matata!
<< image removed >>
The rest of the 'ideas to nerf' GWFs in PvP would drastically hurt the PvE, and I don't see a way to balance it w/o separating both. Until then, we'll just keep on rocking... :cool:
TR should be changed/fixed, atm it works bad, animation is clunky, + the animation canceling that makes this superior to sure strike as dps skill, it should be a mobility and marking tool not dps tool, gutting dps of that skill would only affect ppl using it as dps skill. and making it with some sort of small cd(within 1 second to prevent its abuse) while improving how it works(sometimes dropping half way etc.) would benefit all. you cant nerf it much since GF need it too(good luck sticking on cw without it)
the only way i can think of reducing GWF PvP dmg without ruining pve is trading deep gash for better dps on At-Wills (including aoe on sure strike so it hits in a narrow cone) maybe better power scaling for at-wills
Paladin Master Race
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
TR should be changed/fixed, atm it works bad, animation is clunky, + the animation canceling that makes this superior to sure strike as dps skill, it should be a mobility and marking tool not dps tool, gutting dps of that skill would only affect ppl using it as dps skill. and making it with some sort of small cd(within 1 second to prevent its abuse) while improving how it works(sometimes dropping half way etc.) would benefit all. you cant nerf it much since GF need it too(good luck sticking on cw without it)
the only way i can think of reducing GWF PvP dmg without ruining pve is trading deep gash for better dps on At-Wills (including aoe on sure strike so it hits in a narrow cone) maybe better power scaling for at-wills
I newer saw GWF one hitting somone .
I newer saw GWF deal 40k DMG whit 1 skill.
There are a couple of things that have made GWF viable in pve again.. After being completely shut out for months.. One of them is threatening rush..
So according to you lets make 100% of the GWF community suffer.. Who have suffered the most in order to protect 20% of the community in pvp??
There is no logic.. Look at the responses people are asking the class to be gutted... People value there own pvp experience over the better future of the game...
And oh you say top tier TR is king.. But wait lets need the GWF... There is no logic...
Animation cancelling of weapon master was hardly overpowered, yet it was "fixed." Animation cancelling if TR is obviously not intended. Maybe they let it go because they didn't realize just how abuseable it is. The class should be balanced around solid mechanics, not bugs/exploits/unintended uses.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
TR should be changed/fixed, atm it works bad, animation is clunky, + the animation canceling that makes this superior to sure strike as dps skill, it should be a mobility and marking tool not dps tool, gutting dps of that skill would only affect ppl using it as dps skill. and making it with some sort of small cd(within 1 second to prevent its abuse) while improving how it works(sometimes dropping half way etc.) would benefit all. you cant nerf it much since GF need it too(good luck sticking on cw without it)
the only way i can think of reducing GWF PvP dmg without ruining pve is trading deep gash for better dps on At-Wills (including aoe on sure strike so it hits in a narrow cone) maybe better power scaling for at-wills
You fix TR the same way weapon master strike was fixed. You can still animation cancel weapon master strike, but you cannot restart the attack animation until the animation of the first WMS would have ended.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I newer saw GWF one hitting somone .
I newer saw GWF deal 40k DMG whit 1 skill.
ive 2hitted ppl with my gwf many times, crit ibs + crit frontline can do over 30k with normal vorpal and rank6/7
sent gwf is on the strong side in pvp, but its not OP, if u think gwf is op try killing a PvP DC, different classes have different tasks, some classes work better solo, some work better with other ppl, but animation cancelled TR is too strong and should be addressed, and transferring damage from gash to at-wills would tone down sent gwf without hitting pve(if done right)
rogues are nightmare to balance since they are about single target dmg and stealth - that works best in pvp making them strong, but needs to be high enough to be useful in pve
Paladin Master Race
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
All of the GWF mechanics would be just fine, including the animation canceling...
... if only their PvP damage would be reduced to compensate for their extreme survivability. You should not have both.
Of course, this needs to be done without affecting PvE, because GWF needs damage in PvE, and there's a simple way to do that as well, as I explain in past posts.
Uhh....Ice Knife is not unavoidable like...at all. Only way to reliably land that is to have a CC already on someone.
Fix the animation cancelling issue on TR and see how that goes first, work from there.
Well, we're talking about GWFs, and for GWFs it's unavoidable. Why? No immunity move. As explained earlier. Only way to mitigate it is to wait and pop unstoppable when you hear the IK sound. And hope lag doesn't **** you up.
Again: GWFs, due to their nature, tank more damage than any other class. And that's why they are tankier.
All of the GWF mechanics would be just fine, including the animation canceling...
... if only their PvP damage would be reduced to compensate for their extreme survivability. You should not have both.
Of course, this needs to be done without affecting PvE, because GWF needs damage in PvE, and there's a simple way to do that as well, as I explain in past posts.
You talking about destroyers swordmaster, sentinel swordmaster, iron vanguard destroyers, sentinel iron vanguard...which GWF should have damage reduced? Destroyers? You want them squishy and armed with a marshmallow sword?
No, i assume you're talking about sentinels, and iron vanguard probably.
So, a good start for everyone, would be to actually start calling the "enemy" with his actual name: iron vanguard sentinel regeneration tank. That's the complete name. Or IVSRT if you prefer. "GWFs" means nothing, as i explained earlier.
So, i assume what you are trying to say is that iron vanguard sentinel regeneration tanks should not be able to deal that much damage.
Or, for example, something more reasonable is that unstoppable should not be more effective in one build, compared to another. Right now, due to the sinergy between 40k+ hp+ high regeneration+ unstoppable, that particular build is able to use like 10x unstoppable compared to, for example, a destroyer build. This is cause determination is built through a fixed amount of damage taken. This way, the 40k+ hp pool of a sentinel tank, alone, is able to boost the times you can go unstoppable a lot. But it's also coupled with high regeneration, boosted by the high hp pool. Which means, the damage you take, used to build determination, is absorbed and mitigated a lot. And the more hps you have, the more you regenerate. these are 2 stats that boost unstoppable and that also synergize a lot with each Others. Going unstoppable more, allows you to regenerate more, since during unstoppable the damage taken is reduced a lot. So now you have 3 survivability factors boosting each Others in a loop. This is what makes THAT BUILD so troublesome for most players.
Going from X damage taken to X% of total hp lost, would just make unstoppable the same for any build, reducing the legendary survivability of this particular build, and not of THE WHOLE GWF class.
The animation cancelling is not WAI. Most likely. Damage, instead, just works as intended, though crit, power and ArP. like for any other class. GWFs can't one shot enemies. Not even 2 shot. To be honest, all the sentinel tanks i've fought didn't deal that much damage. The problem for many people is usually that they seem to deal little damage to the enemy, which constantly regenerates his health.
As said in other threads, the only things where there seem to be some balance issue are TR being spammable through animation cancelling, and unstoppable efficiency being multiplied for sentinel tank regeneration builds.
But threat rush itself is not an issue at all.
I'll repeat this: against a GWF, it's not a fight about how much you can keep him at a distance and how fast he can close the gap. It's one factor. Keeping him away more and dealing him the most damage during that time is important for a ranged class. But it's not all. The melee fighter must have his chance to hit you, after you pushed him away, cced him and dpsed him. The true fight is another, if you ask me. Quite simply, a GWF must prone the target to hit with his most powerful power. Else, it will be dodged. IBS can be dodged even by another GWF with just sprint. This gives you the idea. It's him trying to catch you with his cc powers vs you avoiding them.
And the most insidious cc powers of a GWF are the ranged ones: roar for swordmaster, and frontline for IV. No threat rush/ gap closing needed to get you with a ranged stun-prone. And sprint is good enough to close the gap after you use these powers. Such ranged cc powers have downsides: very long cooldown for frontline, and low/ close to no damage for roar.
So, threat rush can be important/ make a difference only if the enemy is using takedown. Which is slow adnd avoidable. Also, most GWFs are very predictable: they rush at you and try to prone you immediately. That's why CWs usually teleport immediately. But, if you see the GWF is trying to make you waste your teleports, instead of teleporting immediately, try to change strategy. Keep moving instead of teleporting, then teleport after few seconds. You don't know when he will try to prone you, but now he can't say when you will teleport.
Ranged classes can DPS from far and cc to delay the moment the melee will be in range to hit them. Eventually, the melee fighter will catch up and have his chance to hit you. Your job, at that point, is to make him waste that chance. With, or without threat rush or frontline. Roar would still be there.
You're focusing on the wrong thing. the 2 fixes needed are the ones mentioned above. And nothing else.
All of the GWF mechanics would be just fine, including the animation canceling...
... if only their PvP damage would be reduced to compensate for their extreme survivability. You should not have both.
Of course, this needs to be done without affecting PvE, because GWF needs damage in PvE, and there's a simple way to do that as well, as I explain in past posts.
The only IV sents that can one shot someone are those running p. vorpals, r10's, 3 epic to legendary artifacts. That is not the majority of the playerbase. Even on my squishy hr that I run in pvp just to get the artifact then will never see a pvp match again, I have never been 2 shot by a gwf, chain proned and killed yes, but never 2 shot, and that toon is a complete pve build with the defenses of a glass cannon. It's honestly embarressing to pvp with him.
On a side note related to the tank GWF's, perhaps it's time to nerf regen's affects when in instanced PvP. When you can regen about as fast as a DC(or possibly faster) can heal then what's the point of DC? I rarely see DC's, probably because no one needs healing anymore.
Maybe try cutting regen by 25% when in PvP, fix animation canceling and see how PvP pans out. Note that nerfing regen would affect EVERYONE that uses it, not just a nerf for GWF's. This game likes to use the trinity gameplay model, but puts too many ways to bypass the actual need of 2 of the types(tanks and heals), depending on where and what you are currently doing.
Father McGruder - Scrub geared DPS DC - I kick HAMSTER for the Lord!
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
On a side note related to the tank GWF's, perhaps it's time to nerf regen's affects when in instanced PvP. When you can regen about as fast as a DC(or possibly faster) can heal then what's the point of DC? I rarely see DC's, probably because no one needs healing anymore.
Maybe try cutting regen by 25% when in PvP, fix animation canceling and see how PvP pans out. Note that nerfing regen would affect EVERYONE that uses it, not just a nerf for GWF's. This game likes to use the trinity gameplay model, but puts too many ways to bypass the actual need of 2 of the types(tanks and heals), depending on where and what you are currently doing.
Well, i don't know which DCs you fight usually, but in PvP tank DCs, if played well, can make the difference. First of all, they can multiply the survivability of the Whole team. Save the team mate who's being focused by 2-3 enemies (regeneration can't save you there, unless you're a sentinel tank with monster HP). Tank enemies and kite them. Tank DCs can tank a lot through astral shield, shift immune and confuse melees moving among his team mates to mess up your aim.
Don't know in premade PvP, but in PUG PvP i've seen strong tank DCs being able to make the difference, just like a very tanky sentinel. Usually cause pugs don't know the meaning of "focus the DC first", and "prone the sentinel before DPSing him".
You see people running after the enemy TR or CW while they are protected by the DC astral shield and being healed, or hitting the GF's shield, or focusing the GWF (now, a tank GWF supported by a DC is really what you would call unkillable).
Another way to put it is, if you have tanks in the enemy team, and a tank DC, the Whole team, or at least the ranged DPS+ TR, should focus on the same target, the squishy ones first, and take him down though DPSing him faster than the DC can heal.
Instead of focused DPS, in pugs you see some half assed, scattered damage. Which, against tanks, is like saying them "please, slaughter us while we hit you with a flower".
Also, regeneration can be mitigated through DoT damage, so astral shield and healing can still be needed.
DCs are needed. But, like for GWFs usually tank builds are what works better for a PvP DC.
Well, i don't know which DCs you fight usually, but in PvP tank DCs, if played well, can make the difference. First of all, they can multiply the survivability of the Whole team. Save the team mate who's being focused by 2-3 enemies (regeneration can't save you there, unless you're a sentinel tank with monster HP). Tank enemies and kite them. Tank DCs can tank a lot through astral shield, shift immune and confuse melees moving among his team mates to mess up your aim.
Don't know in premade PvP, but in PUG PvP i've seen strong tank DCs being able to make the difference, just like a very tanky sentinel. Usually cause pugs don't know the meaning of "focus the DC first", and "prone the sentinel before DPSing him".
You see people running after the enemy TR or CW while they are protected by the DC astral shield and being healed, or hitting the GF's shield, or focusing the GWF (now, a tank GWF supported by a DC is really what you would call unkillable).
Another way to put it is, if you have tanks in the enemy team, and a tank DC, the Whole team, or at least the ranged DPS+ TR, should focus on the same target, the squishy ones first, and take him down though DPSing him faster than the DC can heal.
Instead of focused DPS, in pugs you see some half assed, scattered damage. Which, against tanks, is like saying them "please, slaughter us while we hit you with a flower".
Also, regeneration can be mitigated through DoT damage, so astral shield and healing can still be needed.
DCs are needed. But, like for GWFs usually tank builds are what works better for a PvP DC.
I know of and have seen the tank DC's, but that playstyle is boring and really seems to signal a class breakdown if that is really the only viable path for a DC in PvP. It doesn't help the game at all either that the only map we have is take and hold, which greatly favors tank builds. I'm hoping if we get some different map modes, bigger maps etc that other builds and styles will become viable. That alone could address QQ.
Father McGruder - Scrub geared DPS DC - I kick HAMSTER for the Lord!
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
I did test this, but admittedly it was on the preveiw server for the shadow module. On the preview server at the time, it added 15% on top of the 8% form mark for 23%. I can test it again later tonight when I get home form work. If that is the case, it does reduce the value of powerful challenge more so than I thought. It is still however a solid damage boost.
I can unequivocally state that the 15% more damage from powerful challenge and the 8% mark do stack now. So I would appreciate it if whoever thinks the 15% from powerful challenge replaces the 8% from mark quits spreading misinformation.
Not only does it look like they stack, it looks like they stack multiplicative. IE it isn't 8%+15%=23% more damage. It looks like it is actually 8%(1.08)*15%(1.15) for a 24.2% total in bonus damage. I cannot totally confirm it because I did not run tons of numbers to verify such a small difference, but am relatively confident given running highs/lows on target dummies gave me a 25% boost on the low end and 23.8% on the high end higher damage with mark on target. I ran these without buffs.
Also, when you check the log, the log shows the 8% boost in the from a number in brackets to the listed number, ie 880 (815). But when you compare that to without the mark, you are getting right around 15% higher damage from the bracketed number, 815 in this case, than you were getting without mark.
In BOLD, powerful challenge feat makes mark a 24.2% damage boost to marked targets.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
The only IV sents that can one shot someone are those running p. vorpals, r10's, 3 epic to legendary artifacts. That is not the majority of the playerbase. Even on my squishy hr that I run in pvp just to get the artifact then will never see a pvp match again, I have never been 2 shot by a gwf, chain proned and killed yes, but never 2 shot, and that toon is a complete pve build with the defenses of a glass cannon. It's honestly embarressing to pvp with him.
I've not said anything about one/two shotting people. It is all about comparative damage.
And they don't need that much gear as you listed. The right spec, Rank 7s, epic artifacts and a Greater Vorpal are already enough. Now add to this 35K+ HP and the usual regen monster is born.
So basically... a Tanky char with periods of immunity, spammable gap closer and 40%+ DR should not do as much damage as squish DPS at same gear levels.
Stox already posted comparative encounter damage for CW vs GWF. So I'm not gonna repeat his info.
You talking about destroyers swordmaster, sentinel swordmaster, iron vanguard destroyers, sentinel iron vanguard...which GWF should have damage reduced? Destroyers? You want them squishy and armed with a marshmallow sword?
No, i assume you're talking about sentinels, and iron vanguard probably.
So, a good start for everyone, would be to actually start calling the "enemy" with his actual name: iron vanguard sentinel regeneration tank. That's the complete name. Or IVSRT if you prefer. "GWFs" means nothing, as i explained earlier.
So, i assume what you are trying to say is that iron vanguard sentinel regeneration tanks should not be able to deal that much damage.
Most GWFs you meet in PvP are regen sents. I've yet to see a single Destroyer or Instigator in a PM vs PM.
As I said in previous post, GWFs need PvE damage (if they specced for that...). The usual PvP builds however have the best of both world: damage and tankyness. This shouldn't happen, that's all.
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pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
I've not said anything about one/two shotting people. It is all about comparative damage.
And they don't need that much gear as you listed. The right spec, Rank 7s, epic artifacts and a Greater Vorpal are already enough. Now add to this 35K+ HP and the usual regen monster is born.
So basically... a Tanky char with periods of immunity, spammable gap closer and 40%+ DR should not do as much damage as squish DPS at same gear levels.
Stox already posted comparative encounter damage for CW vs GWF. So I'm not gonna repeat his info.
Most GWFs you meet in PvP are regen sents. I've yet to see a single Destroyer or Instigator in a PM vs PM.
As I said in previous post, GWFs need PvE damage (if they specced for that...). The usual PvP builds however have the best of both world: damage and tankyness. This shouldn't happen, that's all.
Yes most GWF in pvp are sentinel.. But for pve most aren't...an area the class still struggles.. So tell me how can u adjust sentinel for pvp without destroying the class for pve? Given they won't have separation between pvp and pve.. I can't see how it's possible.. And given 80% of the population play for pve not pvp.. How will these adjustments benefit the game at all?
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well player skill matters as well.
We just beat a 3 gwf gf dc comp by 1000-double digit... we run 2 cw 2 tr 1 gf nothing fancy their comp is so much better and both team are geared premade.
" 3 . Deep Gash damage multiplier on encounters needs to be fixed , and Insitgators / Destroyers need buffs later in the paths where sentinels can not get to Them . "
I will appeal to your common sense .
If the deep gash is working as it should, then it was of interest devs increase the damage of the sentinel in pve too ( the class is dps , even had the same priority in partys that the rogue , and not the gf ) ie it will be necessary to increase the sentinel damage by other means that will not be so much a controlled deep gash ....
yes , it would be hell on earth .
If the deep gash is not working as it should, then once repaired , nor the destroyer or the instigator will receive buffs that is not the intent that both do good damage . this was a miscalculation .
in any case , if you bother the supposed bug , why you're still using the deep gash ? I do not canceled spinning strike to be immortal in pve / pvp at the time of the beta .
Summary : any campaign for gwf / sentinel should be done about the extraordinary tank ... but I think the game has major problems .
This is a lie even if we go unstoppable we cant escape grasp & root skills not even treathening rush help us.
Not mentioning agans 2 hr nobody have a little chance not even perma rouge.
two 9 k GS HR can kill 18 k gs GWF with eas simple y cant escape from the dam plants:) even if y use Avalache y go up in the air and pulled back by magic bean root in the air.
keltz0r we already played against, i know your toon.but ask your teammember whos the most overpowered class in the game atm. revrac will answer you, for sure
and just in fact: 2 gwf are easy countered, just saw it, did it, and know that
Also, once the HR bind is fixed so that it doesn't work through immunities (assuming that is fixed), they won't be that impressive against a GWF.
Are you saying 1 HR countered a GWF?
1 HR with his 30 sec artefact and none cooldowns can counter a gwf for sure. if u dont know what i mean, u dont know that the ranger is broken as it can be. he can reset cooldowns even on pots, soulforge etc. what would u do vs this kind of HR? right, u can hope to catch him, and all your encounter are crittin, and that wont happen 10/10 times.
Whit high recovery easy . Yesterday i meet the new perma hide HR unkillable big dmg whit focused shoot .
Y can't see nothing only 10-20 k critts.
But i dont start new topic whit owerpowered perma hide HR.
Because after m2 we got balance my hardest oponets are new anoited champ (regen+ls)DC ,i aways need backup to kill it .
But i dont start new topic whit owerpowered hihg regen ls Anoited Champ DC .
After m2 the biggest hit got the good old GF they must be realy buffed up to other classes, my suggestion changing tab on him.
Of course in top tier PvP TR is king. Because Perfect Bilethorn builds are specifically build to battle GWFs and TRs. Also it's a fact that to get to top-tier rogue, it requires much more skill than being a scary GWF. Also the P.Bilethorn/2k Recovery Rogue requires such a serious investment in gear and practice time (landing flurry, synchronising immunity+stealth) that those build are much more rare than a 2/2 Titan-Vigilant GWF that happened to get a P.Vorpal and 3 epic artifacts. Probably that's why great rogues are so rare, while GWFs can go to good status overnight.
However you missed the entire point of the thread, and your response generated quite some drama about skills, hard earned gear and top tier premades. I guess people just wanted to share, so we have another thread about GWFs supermacy.
The initital point was not that. I guess the OP, and myself are saying that Threatening rush as it is now, shouldn't exist in the arsenal of GWF. Simple as that.
Yes both of y asked for nerf..
But i can always contra nerfs .
I need to do only 1 thing ,remove my enchants pick some sett from guid bank & woala same owerpowered HR or TR or CW or DC unkillable whit high dps then you will come back on forums and start new thread nerf this beacuse its OWERPOWERED.
First of all nerfed DC then nerfed GF then nerfed GWF then nerfed TR then nerfed DC then nerfed TR agan then nerfed GWF agan then nerfed GF agan then nerfed DC more then nerfed GWF more and agan TR and finaly HV sett nerf for CW ...
What shoud i say to this ? NERF anything ower 17k GS so they hard worked or payed chars become weak agan so they need to invest another 300-400 euro to buy zen and sell it for ad,and build up new char ,or they need to grind like hell ,or need to use agan glinch and bugs to keep alive or killing boss.
Easy solution for all y problems ..
Or y can try this y buy ZEN and sell it for ad and make y self immortal.
Both option a good anganst owerpowered Threatening rush:)
But realy if y insult ppl like this y will get the same answer. I dont want to be a jerk ,but i have a 9k gs GWF too and its not soo owerpowered like my main, Threatening rush deal with him only 1000 dmg i die with him on every corner of dpvp beacuse i dont wanted to spend money on 10 chars .
There are a couple of things that have made GWF viable in pve again.. After being completely shut out for months.. One of them is threatening rush..
So according to you lets make 100% of the GWF community suffer.. Who have suffered the most in order to protect 20% of the community in pvp??
There is no logic.. Look at the responses people are asking the class to be gutted... People value there own pvp experience over the better future of the game...
And oh you say top tier TR is king.. But wait lets need the GWF... There is no logic...
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The rest of the 'ideas to nerf' GWFs in PvP would drastically hurt the PvE, and I don't see a way to balance it w/o separating both. Until then, we'll just keep on rocking... :cool:
the only way i can think of reducing GWF PvP dmg without ruining pve is trading deep gash for better dps on At-Wills (including aoe on sure strike so it hits in a narrow cone) maybe better power scaling for at-wills
I newer saw GWF one hitting somone .
I newer saw GWF deal 40k DMG whit 1 skill.
Animation cancelling of weapon master was hardly overpowered, yet it was "fixed." Animation cancelling if TR is obviously not intended. Maybe they let it go because they didn't realize just how abuseable it is. The class should be balanced around solid mechanics, not bugs/exploits/unintended uses.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
You fix TR the same way weapon master strike was fixed. You can still animation cancel weapon master strike, but you cannot restart the attack animation until the animation of the first WMS would have ended.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
ive 2hitted ppl with my gwf many times, crit ibs + crit frontline can do over 30k with normal vorpal and rank6/7
sent gwf is on the strong side in pvp, but its not OP, if u think gwf is op try killing a PvP DC, different classes have different tasks, some classes work better solo, some work better with other ppl, but animation cancelled TR is too strong and should be addressed, and transferring damage from gash to at-wills would tone down sent gwf without hitting pve(if done right)
rogues are nightmare to balance since they are about single target dmg and stealth - that works best in pvp making them strong, but needs to be high enough to be useful in pve
... if only their PvP damage would be reduced to compensate for their extreme survivability. You should not have both.
Of course, this needs to be done without affecting PvE, because GWF needs damage in PvE, and there's a simple way to do that as well, as I explain in past posts.
Well, we're talking about GWFs, and for GWFs it's unavoidable. Why? No immunity move. As explained earlier. Only way to mitigate it is to wait and pop unstoppable when you hear the IK sound. And hope lag doesn't **** you up.
Again: GWFs, due to their nature, tank more damage than any other class. And that's why they are tankier.
You talking about destroyers swordmaster, sentinel swordmaster, iron vanguard destroyers, sentinel iron vanguard...which GWF should have damage reduced? Destroyers? You want them squishy and armed with a marshmallow sword?
No, i assume you're talking about sentinels, and iron vanguard probably.
So, a good start for everyone, would be to actually start calling the "enemy" with his actual name: iron vanguard sentinel regeneration tank. That's the complete name. Or IVSRT if you prefer. "GWFs" means nothing, as i explained earlier.
So, i assume what you are trying to say is that iron vanguard sentinel regeneration tanks should not be able to deal that much damage.
Or, for example, something more reasonable is that unstoppable should not be more effective in one build, compared to another. Right now, due to the sinergy between 40k+ hp+ high regeneration+ unstoppable, that particular build is able to use like 10x unstoppable compared to, for example, a destroyer build. This is cause determination is built through a fixed amount of damage taken. This way, the 40k+ hp pool of a sentinel tank, alone, is able to boost the times you can go unstoppable a lot. But it's also coupled with high regeneration, boosted by the high hp pool. Which means, the damage you take, used to build determination, is absorbed and mitigated a lot. And the more hps you have, the more you regenerate. these are 2 stats that boost unstoppable and that also synergize a lot with each Others. Going unstoppable more, allows you to regenerate more, since during unstoppable the damage taken is reduced a lot. So now you have 3 survivability factors boosting each Others in a loop. This is what makes THAT BUILD so troublesome for most players.
Going from X damage taken to X% of total hp lost, would just make unstoppable the same for any build, reducing the legendary survivability of this particular build, and not of THE WHOLE GWF class.
The animation cancelling is not WAI. Most likely. Damage, instead, just works as intended, though crit, power and ArP. like for any other class. GWFs can't one shot enemies. Not even 2 shot. To be honest, all the sentinel tanks i've fought didn't deal that much damage. The problem for many people is usually that they seem to deal little damage to the enemy, which constantly regenerates his health.
As said in other threads, the only things where there seem to be some balance issue are TR being spammable through animation cancelling, and unstoppable efficiency being multiplied for sentinel tank regeneration builds.
But threat rush itself is not an issue at all.
I'll repeat this: against a GWF, it's not a fight about how much you can keep him at a distance and how fast he can close the gap. It's one factor. Keeping him away more and dealing him the most damage during that time is important for a ranged class. But it's not all. The melee fighter must have his chance to hit you, after you pushed him away, cced him and dpsed him. The true fight is another, if you ask me. Quite simply, a GWF must prone the target to hit with his most powerful power. Else, it will be dodged. IBS can be dodged even by another GWF with just sprint. This gives you the idea. It's him trying to catch you with his cc powers vs you avoiding them.
And the most insidious cc powers of a GWF are the ranged ones: roar for swordmaster, and frontline for IV. No threat rush/ gap closing needed to get you with a ranged stun-prone. And sprint is good enough to close the gap after you use these powers. Such ranged cc powers have downsides: very long cooldown for frontline, and low/ close to no damage for roar.
So, threat rush can be important/ make a difference only if the enemy is using takedown. Which is slow adnd avoidable. Also, most GWFs are very predictable: they rush at you and try to prone you immediately. That's why CWs usually teleport immediately. But, if you see the GWF is trying to make you waste your teleports, instead of teleporting immediately, try to change strategy. Keep moving instead of teleporting, then teleport after few seconds. You don't know when he will try to prone you, but now he can't say when you will teleport.
Ranged classes can DPS from far and cc to delay the moment the melee will be in range to hit them. Eventually, the melee fighter will catch up and have his chance to hit you. Your job, at that point, is to make him waste that chance. With, or without threat rush or frontline. Roar would still be there.
You're focusing on the wrong thing. the 2 fixes needed are the ones mentioned above. And nothing else.
Maybe try cutting regen by 25% when in PvP, fix animation canceling and see how PvP pans out. Note that nerfing regen would affect EVERYONE that uses it, not just a nerf for GWF's. This game likes to use the trinity gameplay model, but puts too many ways to bypass the actual need of 2 of the types(tanks and heals), depending on where and what you are currently doing.
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
Well, i don't know which DCs you fight usually, but in PvP tank DCs, if played well, can make the difference. First of all, they can multiply the survivability of the Whole team. Save the team mate who's being focused by 2-3 enemies (regeneration can't save you there, unless you're a sentinel tank with monster HP). Tank enemies and kite them. Tank DCs can tank a lot through astral shield, shift immune and confuse melees moving among his team mates to mess up your aim.
Don't know in premade PvP, but in PUG PvP i've seen strong tank DCs being able to make the difference, just like a very tanky sentinel. Usually cause pugs don't know the meaning of "focus the DC first", and "prone the sentinel before DPSing him".
You see people running after the enemy TR or CW while they are protected by the DC astral shield and being healed, or hitting the GF's shield, or focusing the GWF (now, a tank GWF supported by a DC is really what you would call unkillable).
Another way to put it is, if you have tanks in the enemy team, and a tank DC, the Whole team, or at least the ranged DPS+ TR, should focus on the same target, the squishy ones first, and take him down though DPSing him faster than the DC can heal.
Instead of focused DPS, in pugs you see some half assed, scattered damage. Which, against tanks, is like saying them "please, slaughter us while we hit you with a flower".
Also, regeneration can be mitigated through DoT damage, so astral shield and healing can still be needed.
DCs are needed. But, like for GWFs usually tank builds are what works better for a PvP DC.
I know of and have seen the tank DC's, but that playstyle is boring and really seems to signal a class breakdown if that is really the only viable path for a DC in PvP. It doesn't help the game at all either that the only map we have is take and hold, which greatly favors tank builds. I'm hoping if we get some different map modes, bigger maps etc that other builds and styles will become viable. That alone could address QQ.
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
Anyone getting hit for that much damage you should just quit the game since they obviously have no clue how to build a decent character.
I can unequivocally state that the 15% more damage from powerful challenge and the 8% mark do stack now. So I would appreciate it if whoever thinks the 15% from powerful challenge replaces the 8% from mark quits spreading misinformation.
Not only does it look like they stack, it looks like they stack multiplicative. IE it isn't 8%+15%=23% more damage. It looks like it is actually 8%(1.08)*15%(1.15) for a 24.2% total in bonus damage. I cannot totally confirm it because I did not run tons of numbers to verify such a small difference, but am relatively confident given running highs/lows on target dummies gave me a 25% boost on the low end and 23.8% on the high end higher damage with mark on target. I ran these without buffs.
Also, when you check the log, the log shows the 8% boost in the from a number in brackets to the listed number, ie 880 (815). But when you compare that to without the mark, you are getting right around 15% higher damage from the bracketed number, 815 in this case, than you were getting without mark.
In BOLD, powerful challenge feat makes mark a 24.2% damage boost to marked targets.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I've not said anything about one/two shotting people. It is all about comparative damage.
And they don't need that much gear as you listed. The right spec, Rank 7s, epic artifacts and a Greater Vorpal are already enough. Now add to this 35K+ HP and the usual regen monster is born.
So basically... a Tanky char with periods of immunity, spammable gap closer and 40%+ DR should not do as much damage as squish DPS at same gear levels.
Stox already posted comparative encounter damage for CW vs GWF. So I'm not gonna repeat his info.
Most GWFs you meet in PvP are regen sents. I've yet to see a single Destroyer or Instigator in a PM vs PM.
As I said in previous post, GWFs need PvE damage (if they specced for that...). The usual PvP builds however have the best of both world: damage and tankyness. This shouldn't happen, that's all.
Yes most GWF in pvp are sentinel.. But for pve most aren't...an area the class still struggles.. So tell me how can u adjust sentinel for pvp without destroying the class for pve? Given they won't have separation between pvp and pve.. I can't see how it's possible.. And given 80% of the population play for pve not pvp.. How will these adjustments benefit the game at all?