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How do hunters compare?
inthefade462
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
Recently started leveling a hunter, getting a feel for the class now but in no rush to level cap or the gearing treadmill. I purposely waited a bit before rolling one for all the initial bugs/nerfs/etc to work themselves out so i won't get serious about the class until a few hr patches hit. For reference, I've played each class to level cap/bis gear through module 2 and currently main a gwf.
Anyway, i've been trying to get a feel for how hr perform at cap but variations in gear, build, and mostly player skill has resulted in some wild variations in performance so its hard to gauge. Class is new so not many are well geared, the highest gs hr ive grouped with basically matched my own (15.8k) though it was difficult to judge his effectiveness (low dps, maybe nature build? Never took aggro), while an 11k archery hr in mostly blues dealt close to my dps (within a mil or 2) with just splitshot spam but spent most fights running/dead. Grouping with that hr taught me a lot about how to maintain aggro over splitshot spam and keep mobs from running/keep hr alive.
So, experienced hunters, tell me how you compare to the other classes, or atleast how you should compare theoretically compared to similiar gear/skill level players of other classes. Where would you place hr's in the following categories, compared to the original classes? And when you list them, please specify build.
Single target dps:
Tr
gwf
gf
cw
dc
Aoe dps:
Cw
gwf
gf
dc
tr
Buffing/debuffing:
Dc
cw
gf
tr/gwf
Survivability:
gf/gwf
dc/tr
cw
Anyway, i've been trying to get a feel for how hr perform at cap but variations in gear, build, and mostly player skill has resulted in some wild variations in performance so its hard to gauge. Class is new so not many are well geared, the highest gs hr ive grouped with basically matched my own (15.8k) though it was difficult to judge his effectiveness (low dps, maybe nature build? Never took aggro), while an 11k archery hr in mostly blues dealt close to my dps (within a mil or 2) with just splitshot spam but spent most fights running/dead. Grouping with that hr taught me a lot about how to maintain aggro over splitshot spam and keep mobs from running/keep hr alive.
So, experienced hunters, tell me how you compare to the other classes, or atleast how you should compare theoretically compared to similiar gear/skill level players of other classes. Where would you place hr's in the following categories, compared to the original classes? And when you list them, please specify build.
Single target dps:
Tr
gwf
gf
cw
dc
Aoe dps:
Cw
gwf
gf
dc
tr
Buffing/debuffing:
Dc
cw
gf
tr/gwf
Survivability:
gf/gwf
dc/tr
cw
Post edited by inthefade462 on
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Single target dps: 3rd, behind TR and GWF
AoE dps: 1st-2nd. A good thaumaturge Wizard can outdmg me, but usually only with better gear
Buffing/debuffing: 3rd. I don't usually have much buffs on my bars, but I have no trouble putting Fox/Boar/Seismic Shot in when we need it, because the ranger's encounters are so flexible
Survivability: 6th. Not sure about dungeons, but in PvP, single CC -> death, or near death.
NW-DMFGWPBN3 The Lost City - Review Thread
This is pretty accurate with the exception of if you spec for it I'd say buffs are second only to cleric.
That's not true at all. Probably if you go with PvE spec/Archery in PvP this is what's happening, but HRs specced for PvP are even more survivable than GFs.
The rest are true. In PvE, you are never going to top anything unless you fork out AD for P.Vorpals+amazing PvE gear, and even then a lesser geared CW will outperform in AoE/Arcane Singularity
Specifics beyound those sorts of vague generailties are really hard to lay out just because they depend so much on variables that are hard or impossible to account for with the limited data pool we have.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
My gwf and CW, GF are similarly geared but with rank 8s.
Now id say when theres 10+ mobs running about, CW > GWF/HR. in aoe
HR and GWF aoe is very similar, you guys prob dont run with very good geared GWFs. CW moves ahead because of their burst. but it depends on whether they cluster things for your rain of arrows, then you will be doing more. alot of variables to consider here.
as for single target HR>TR/GWF>CW. GWF and TR single target is very similar these days because of the bleeds gwfs do, CW is behind slightly but benefits from being at range
HR is hands down the best in single target, But you can only achieve this from being hybrid and making use of fox shift + rain of arrows, thorn ward. for super fast cooldown reductions, along with a poke here or there with your aimed strike melee at will/rapid shot range.
Staying range in single target is not going be very good, considering the cooldowns are similar to a wizard and their encounters (single target) do alot amore damage.
survivability HR is at the bottom, not much survival skills here, only a daze which is a daily. low debuffs and buffs come at the cost of DPS unlike wizards, and are mostly defensive (offensive buffs pretty sucky).
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Single target dps:
gwf (deep gash does more dmg than a tr)
tr
cw
gf (conq)
hr
dc
Aoe dps:
gwf
cw
hr
gf
tr
dc
Buffing/debuffing:
Dc (high prophet, hallowed ground)
cw
gwf
tr
gf (into the fray)
hr
Survivability:
dc (if built properly)
gwf
cw (control spam)
tr
gf (they are just punching bags with gimped ap generation in mod 2)
hr (dodge is broken, no immunity power)
Bug/exploit strength:
hr (it is the only redeeming quality to this class)
gwf
cw
tr
dc
gf
Overall DPS
Using the above method I'm ranking in the top bracket for overall dungeon DPS 96% of the time, often by over 1 million points. The only time I drop to second is when I'm paired with an over-geared CW or HR, or if in dungeons like Spellplague where I don't really get many chances to attack because everything is being thrown off ledges.
Single Target DPS
I find I'm not lacking quite as severely in this area as people seem to make HR out to be. Yeah we're not all THAT great, TR and GWF easily out-class us in most situations. But if left to my own devices I can easily knock down most opponents fairly efficiently by combining TC/MoA procced RoA and Aimed. To date my highest critical hit with Aimed is weighing in at over 37k; doesn't happen very often (usually I'm critting in the 18-25k range), but when it does it takes a pretty significant chunk of HP from the target.
AoE DPS
Okay we're no CW but we can hold our own here pretty well with a few contributing factors. Split Shot may have a 5-target limit, but when combined with a decent tank and TC I'm usually spiking my Splits over 12k. By half-charging I can keep doing this once per second, so you can probably follow how this can stack up damage very quickly. Combine that with RoA on a tight group of targets (Far as I can tell RoA does not have a target cap) and you've got potential for some serious AoE damage. Now on the other hand you take away the tank and things go south fast. When forced to kite I'm still managing to put out a Split roughly once every 1.5 seconds (dodge, split, dodge, etc), but using RoA effectively becomes impossible as the monsters simply path out of or around the effect.
Control/Survivability
I threw survivability in here too because control and survivability really go hand-in-hand. By now you should know that Rangers are the second-weakest in terms of physical prowess when it comes to taking damage (the weakest being CW). If you're looking to stop a sword, leather is definitely not the armor you want to be wearing. We also lack virtually any form of effective control ability, making our overall survivability rating rather pitiful. The only thing we have going for us is our ridiculous mobility, which when used effectively can leave you the last man standing long after the rest of the party wiped out. With four shifts we have fully twice as many dodges as any other class in the game, and with a few strategically placed feats we have one of the fastest passively regenerating stamina to fuel them. I use my shift ability religiously and frequently during a fight to reposition myself to both avoid harmful AoE zones and to maximize the effectiveness of my skill usage, to the point where I can survive outside Cleric circles long after I should have dropped (This is not intentional mind you, it just sometimes happens). Survival on a HR hinges on being aware of everything going on around you and reacting appropriately to it.
Mitigation/Buffs
Now this is an interesting one. I've run with a couple Nature build rangers and I have to say I'm very impressed with what they do. You have to keep in mind that HR is not an active dedicated buffer/healer like Cleric. We have a nice selection of skills for reducing damage taken and boosting the damage of the party for a short time, and when combined with a Cleric it becomes a very powerful combination of active effects on your dps team. But on their own a Nature HR won't guarantee success like a dedicated Cleric would. We can't heal, we don't have powerful damage mitigating circles, and our buffs sadly really are second best. That said I'd still take a Nature HR in my parties any day.
PvP
Yeah Archery tree in PvP is a cluster and then some. 1v1 it's a viable build as long as you don't ignore your melee skills, but if you try to duke it out in melee using ranged skills or end up with more than one target at once you're often going to be lain out. Combat on the other hand seems to excel in PvP as all of our melee encounters seem to revolve around PvP effects. Boar Charge with the prone, Marauder's Rush with its high spike damage, Fox Strike with its 3 sec invulnerability frame, and Hindering Strike with its strong root effect. I'm usually rotating through these four skills dependent on the match up, while my At-Wills remain Split and Aimed to maintain the excessive ranged prowess.
You mean by running around like a little girl? HR are far squishier than CW. Anything an HR can stack for survival, a CW can, and a CW has meaningful ways to prevent or greatly reduce damage with the press of a few buttons. Surrounded by 20 mobs? Steal time, or shard, or oppressive force. Valindra shooting purple balls at you? Ignore 80% of it by slotting shield.
You're an HR being attacked by a tiny spider? Dodge, run away, hope teammates kill the tiny little spider before it takes away a big chunk of your hp.
I'm ranged spec currently, but I still survive plenty. I can survive CC chains from CWs. I can kill things very quickly too. In PVP, a combat HR is beast for survival, considering they get extra deflect just for their stance. So.. yeah, I don't see that happening. Sorry.
You got that impression too?
Chocobo by "squishiness" as you've so deftly put it the ranger is by far the weaker, however that was not what I was referring to. I was referring to base armor, which on a mage is lower than a Ranger's. However their methods for making up for that lack of armor are entirely different. A mage stands there rooted in place while throwing around pushes, draws, explosions and roots, attempting to control the battlefield from a single stationary position much like a battery or turret. A ranger on the other hand is the light assault vehicle that flies around the battlefield dealing death from every possible angle and maximizing opportunities when they present themselves. Opportunities such as oh I don't know how about that wonderful singularity you throw up, dragging the entire pull into a convenient tight ball which I can then drop my RoA onto for maximum damage. From my experience I find parties in Neverwinter to be all about synergy within the group, and HR is one of those that can synergize with just about anybody. We have buffs for those parties that need it, we have massive AoE damage potential when combined with a control-focused mage, we have excellent single-target damage potential for burning down bosses or elites, and our mobility gives us the ability to kite-tank large groups of monsters and adds while the rest of the party focuses down the boss. Hell I've even been in parties where I was the tank for certain bosses.
Chocobofarmer is our resident doomsayer for the HR. If there is a chance to say they are bad chocobofarmer is there to say it.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
While Combat spec, I was *extremely* survivable. 35.8% DR, 33.2% deflect. 26,000 HP, 34.8% run speed boost. Master Predator armor and all the fun feats from Combat.
With my new spec I am not as survivable, but neither am I "squishy". I am sitting at 33.8% DR, 23.8% Deflect, 27,404 HP (got the 700 HP boon and upgraded a couple radiant enchants after I switched specs). Also sporting 39.3% Crit, 2574 AP (for 24.2% AP+ 14 STR, can't really reduce my AP with my current gear).
I am frequently at the top of the damage lists, but a few CWs can out damage me. I am also FAR tougher to kill than the average CW in PvE. I truly enjoy playing my HR and I have never felt like a weak link in any group I have been in.
In PvP I am definately NOT as dangerous in my ranged build as I was in my melee build, but I can still do some damage, annoy some people and I only crumple fast if I get a CW+someone else on me. I can deal with (most) CWs solo, GWF rarely kill me but I also rarely kill them (usually a stalemate until friends from one side or the other show up). GFs take some work, but I am seldom in danger of getting killed, they just take a while to take down. TRs are easy meat unless they are particularly well played perma-stealth.
I get that impression too Tickdoff. I've been fighting with myself over the last week whether or not I want to swap over to Combat tree to give myself a little more prowess in PvP while still retaining power in PvE, but I find to do that I'd have to invest ALL of my points and can't find a workable hybrid without extremely gimping either build. I'm still sitting the fence over it since I'm not sure how investing all my points to Combat would affect my PvE performance, and I don't want to spend the extra 73k AD to fix it if it screws everything up
There's only two pvp maps in this game besides the gauntlgrym horse race. PVP in this game is a joke for people who haven't played counterstrike or starcraft. Obviously I'm talking about pve. Look at the things the original poster is writing, obviously it is about PVE.
Come do a dungeon with my 16k gs ranger and tell me who doesn't know the class mkay? You know my handle.
The pve is an even bigger joke than the pvp, the AI is absolutely pitiful and every attack is telegraphed. It takes no skill to do well in pve.
GS=Skill now? Lol@u
This game is 99% full of people that can only do PvE. Quite different.
hidahayabusa, inability to understand that I was accused of not knowing about hr's and that I asked people here to do a dungeon with me so that they would know I have a very good understanding of hr, and I know much better than most about hr pvp and pve.
Choco, sorry if it came out as an insult. But I was really not refering to you personally. It's just a fact, that the vast majority of NW players are failing to understand that successful PvP and successful PvE are too completely different meanings. However, most good PvPers can perform adequately on PvE, while most of the times the opposite does not happen.
When you make a silly statement, saying that having a high Gear Score somehow means you are knowledgeable or skillful in a certain class, makes everyone want to laugh at you............that is all =/
Hidahayabusa made a comment about your lack of knowledge on the class because you so easily dismissed the HR's in the Survival Department. Like any class, if built and played right, the HR is Tanky as all hell in PvP, and PvE.
Saying that HR's only reason for any success is because of the current bugs is laughable, which also leads us to believe you don't know quite as much about the HR as you think you do.
I always laugh when I hear people say that Melee HR is the only way to go in PvP.
Is Melee awesome? I personally haven't a clue, I haven't tried it out yet because I enjoy the Archery side. . The ones that have killed me though, guess what I see when I look in my combat log? Fox Shift dmg 6+ times. Using a broken mechanic and spamming an ability to kill someone takes all credibility away from the build and the player imo.
Are there Combat HR's out there NOT using Forest Ghost/Med/Stormstep and still kicking a$$ in PvP? Those are the combat HR's I wanna talk too, and hear from. The others I could care less about. again, /golfclap@killing someone with a broken spammable ability.
So basically what I get from you. Is you said a bunch of random <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about how YOU feel the HR is so bad. Many people disagree with you, and your response's were.....not even responses, just more random blabber meaning nothing.
Double my HR's dps in a dungeon? That's quite the epeen you've got there
Don't slot Fox or Stormstep, I'll throw 2million AD on this little epeen stroking contest of yours and happily accept your ridiculous challenge.
AI for PVE is a joke. After you get what? 13k? 12k gs? You can do any of them. The higher the GS, the easier it is. It's still the same thing over and over. Congratulations. You memorized a dungeon. yay.
I've yet to see a single guide from you Chocobo. I've yet to see a single video. All I've seen is you spout doom and gloom and guess what? It's not true. If EVERYONE ELSE but you is not having issues.. then, maybe it's you?
As for the original post? no. It doesn't look like it's only PVE to me. It looks like it's requesting information from *ALL* parts of the game. So while you have memorized that dungeon and believe your way (which you say sucks) is how it is, I'll tell it how it is from my own.
shadow, you also don't get that the reason I asked people here to join me for a dungeon is because I was accused of not understandaing hr. Fine, do people here want me to respec into combat and be a fox shift master predator troll before people stop accusing me of not knowing hr? Reread the original post, obviously he has not mentioned a single word about pvp, but referring to pve, and pve IS most of this game.
I do a lot of t2.5+ dungeons, and I know that many people view hr's are not good for CN. I'm saying that hr is weak on forum because I am hoping enough people will realize they have no place in end game content except as filler and if the bugs are fixed without any significant buffs they will become as rare as guardian fighters. But all I get from the people on this forum is accusations I don't know what I'm talking about. I guess 12 days of /played on my hr means nothing too? You want to see my guides to see I know the game, or just want some more canon fodder for people on the forum to insult me with? Here's my guide for HR, don't play it, it is only viable in end game content for abusing bugs to do single target damage. Now if you want to play a class that actually contributes to the group, like DC or GWF, feel free to read my guides for them.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?538341-Pincushion-Cleric-PVP-PVE-Build&p=6639871#post6639871
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?551611-Steel-Cannon-Weapon-Fighter-Destroyer-Tank-Build-(PVE-Only)-Updated-for-mod-2
Being on this forum has apparently been a huge waste of my time. All I got from talking on the ranger forum is an affirmation never to invite hr's to CN because they offer nothing unless they know how to abuse bugs and aren't squishy little twigs like most hr's are.
I'm only at 10.5k GS. I don't do PVE. So I don't have the dungeons memorized. That said, I've still run epics just fine and helped win and kill stuff just fine. Guess what? I didn't die either. Gasp! I know, right??
If you are focused purely on speed, then the only answer is 4cw 1dc, yes? I mean, if you want absolute best OMG get done asap!!! type deal.. that's the only way to play. You mention 1 dungeon, which I have seen plenty of people say is difficult for *ANY* class or group composition and say HR is squishy. What about PK? What about ToS? Oh.. right.. they do fine there.
I'm glad to see that you are at least trying to help with stuff. The guides you posted are interesting, imho, they are weak, as they focus on 'I can't take hits so try to survive as long as possible' instead of 'I will kill you before you kill me.' But, that's play style, to each their own.
I refuse to use the bug. I'm still viable in things AND I do decent damage. Personally? I'm there if I DO pve, for the gear. So I could give a flying rat's left nut on what damage is done. Did we win? Great. Did I get the gear? no, so have to run again.
I'm the one that accused you of not understanding HR. I accuse you of such because EVERYONE says they do ok. You are 1 of 2 people I know on the forum and in game that says they suck. I believe they need tweaks. I believe all the classes could use tweaks. I'd be happy to have the bugs fixed as I'd love to use stormstep, I won't use it until it is fixed, however.
pvp = ____ in this game, its fun stomping noobs, but thats about all there is in pvp. going to pvp without having serious pvp guild and premade v premade feels like going to a kindergarten and punching kids.
not everybody WANTS to pvp, but i guess some wannabe pvp stars cant get their face around it. there are way better games for pvp.
I also don't stack power, I stack defense/deflect/regen. PVPer, remember?
Like I said, your builds sacrifice too much to stay alive. I rely on my skill to make up for having more output of damage. High crit into the stat mix. It's a playstyle choice. Yours vs mine. I also pulled aggro. A lot. I also know how to shed aggro with forest ghost. The CW was decent, however taking and giving up aggro is something any DPSer should know how to do. Thanks for the assumptions though.
As for 30 min CNs? so what? It's a dungeon. Tell me when you come out 1000 - 999 30 mins PVP match that has everyone's heart pumping. Then we'll talk.
As much as I respect you for your guides in forum, I have to say this. You are derailing and flaming the OP.
This topic does not say HR totally suck in anything but not shining in anything either when bugs skills are excluded. There are not only many of HR's skills need to be fixed, such as cc immunity ignore roots/dazes/stun, ghost, and stompstep, but also many mediocre skills needed buffs, such as rain of steel, thorn strike, Cold steel hurricane, etc.