pvp = ____ in this game, its fun stomping noobs, but thats about all there is in pvp. going to pvp without having serious pvp guild and premade v premade feels like going to a kindergarten and punching kids.
not everybody WANTS to pvp, but i guess some wannabe pvp stars cant get their face around it. there are way better games for pvp.
I agree, but this doesn't make me want to re-think my statement. PvE stars and PvP stars are bad for a game without competitve content in either PvE or PvP. I mean the same can be said for people grabbing a P.Vorpal, joining Pirate King and having 'noobs' awed by their 20m damage before 2nd boss.
By the way, Choco if you want I can join you in some dungeons. I need the gear on my HR since I can't find any queues
I have burkaanc. When I tried to play legit with mainly split shot in MC it was about 1/4th less total damage than when using stormstep bug, with my usual guild team. Something to note though was even though it was great aoe damage, the single target damage potential of playing legit ranger is greatly reduced.
Shadow, my gwf, hr and dc all have crit at 3k-4k, but not primarily for the extra damage/heals, but for triggering feats. You say my builds are weak, but that's due to not realizing power does not contribute anything to the utility of classes. Power has zero effect on the damage reduction of hallowed ground/astral shield, the duration of control effects by cw, or the damage proc of gwf deep gash (the tooltip is wrong), and a hr who spams throw caution and also has 40-50% of the effective hp of glass cannon hr's has stronger attacks AND survival as opposed to an hr who can't abuse throw caution properly (close range with stormstep) because he would die in a single aoe attack.
As for giving up aggro, that is a detriment to the rest of the group. When I play any of my four other toons, I never try to avoid aggro. HR is the only one where I have to hide or lay off attacking because it is too weak to handle more than a couple of mobs at once. My gwf and dc can tank entire rooms in cn indefinitely, and they contribute greatly to the team by taking all the aggro until they can be well controlled by the cw's. My cw will facetank an entire room in cn until she can control the mobs. While people like you run around in circles or using forest ghost far from any mobs to hide trying to avoid dying since you have 800 defense and 20k hp, my toons will stand their ground and constantly attack, constantly building ap to contribute a lot more damage and utility to the team than a glass cannon can.
hida, thanks for a civil response. Anytime we're both on let's do whatever dungeon you need and let's put to rest this stupid notion I don't know how to play hr.
hida, thanks for a civil response. Anytime we're both on let's do whatever dungeon you need and let's put to rest this stupid notion I don't know how to play hr.
Sure, add me in game. I surely don't know how to play my HR on PvE. Consider it a teaching run.
there is smth wrong with HR aggro, i dont usually mind party getting aggro since they deal with it easily but hr always manages to get some 5 mobs on him i have to chase down and try to pull them off, in theory they should be able to switch to melee and deal with it but instead they mostly waste my time making me chase them - thats from viewpoint of dps gwf with less hp than most HR ^^
I am a PVPer.. so that means, defense, which is at 2k for my HR. Deflect, which is up to 33%. HP so I'm at 27k there and crit. That's the core of what I use. I don't stack power. It's a secondary that is in the gear and whatever. I'm in T1 pvp, as I don't have a lot of time to do GG or DD's. I'm in R5s because that's all I can afford. I give up aggro when I play my TR. You control aggro with a controller, wow, big surprise there! You also tank with.. gasp, tanks! Guess what? so do I! amazing!
I don't hide in a corner and pray they go away. I hit forest ghost and mix it up. Stealth makes them switch targets, making it so the tank can get back aggro. meanwhile I do MORE damage to them with forest ghost. I work with the group to keep stuff together, rather than run around like an idiot.
By the way, I know power doesn't add to the DR reduction of shield. It DOES add to the damage base for a crit daunting light. It also adds to the damage for forgemaster flame AND increases the heal it does too. That said? I don't stack power on my DC either. I stack crit as critical DoTs are critical for the full amount and can eat through other players. My GWF is actually my least developed character, although the first one I've hit 60 with, as I just can't really get into the play style. That said, he has regen/defense/deflect. So, amazingly enough, you're still assuming stuff.
I can kill stuff that is built your way, with stuff built my way.
It's a matter of play style, which I have also said. Just because you can't make a super defense HR, which is your play style, they're weak, etc, etc, etc. Like you continue to spout. So what if many players have show and done otherwise.
As much as I respect you for your guides in forum, I have to say this. You are derailing and flaming the OP.
This topic does not say HR totally suck in anything but not shining in anything either when bugs skills are excluded. There are not only many of HR's skills need to be fixed, such as cc immunity ignore roots/dazes/stun, ghost, and stompstep, but also many mediocre skills needed buffs, such as rain of steel, thorn strike, Cold steel hurricane, etc.
I never responded to the OP. I responded to Choco, who is of the opinion that HR's are totally useless, without the Stormstep bug.
I have burkaanc. When I tried to play legit with mainly split shot in MC it was about 1/4th less total damage than when using stormstep bug, with my usual guild team. Something to note though was even though it was great aoe damage, the single target damage potential of playing legit ranger is greatly reduced.
an hr who can't abuse throw caution properly (close range with stormstep) .
You say HR's are worthless and squishy and cant do anything without a bug.
Many of us disagree.
You say you have a 16k GS and 12 days played as an HR and that affords you the right to say you are omnipotent of the class and we are all wrong to disagree with you.
You tell me to join you in a dungeon and "watch in amazement as you DOUBLE my HR's damage. I accepted that ridiculous challenge, and challenged you to put your money where your mouth is with a 2mil bet. (which obviously you are declining as you completely ignored that statement).
Your above quotes make me lol inside@u.
Your personal success's with the HR is admittedly only because of a broken mechanic/exploit. Far as I'm concerned any opinion at all you have on the HR is null and void. All you know is how to play an exploit to success, and that is pathetic in my book.
What makes me laugh the most reading all the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you say, is you speak like PvE is actually difficult. Like you need some special group comp to be effective or fast. News flash
> PvE is EASY!
Want fast? 1 DC 4 CW's..Fastest group you'll get.
Want to clear every single dungon this game has? Grab some buddies and go, PvE is a snoozefest.
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
I apologize for starting what was intended as an innocent thread to gauge what HRs are all about.
I did start this thread because, from grouping with them, all of you are right.
they are good. they are terrible. They drop aggro np. they have aggro issues and run around like they are on fire and I have to chase them down. They spam split shot. they mix it up combat/archery using all 6 encounters. they deal good dmg. they deal cleric dmg. All of these things happen in dungeons with HR, because the class is new and skill level and gear is so wildly varied.
I was only concerned about PVE. I have a good deal of experience fighting HRs in PVP so I get what they're about there, which as an OP gwf in pvp, archery = lunch and combat = run away before he sees me.
Are there Combat HR's out there NOT using Forest Ghost/Med/Stormstep and still kicking a$$ in PvP? Those are the combat HR's I wanna talk too, and hear from. The others I could care less about. again, /golfclap@killing someone with a broken spammable ability.
I was running a combat HR, with marauder's, Boars and Fox as my encounters, SS and DS (Disruptive Shot) as my daily powers, Lone Wolf and SS for passives. But I rarely used the exploit. I know that it is going to be fixed and I did not want to rely on a broken power combo. I respec'd to an archer build, which I am currently playing so I feel confident that I can speak to both sides of the discussion.
As a melee build I was much more dangerous, it was far easier to get kills and I was MUCH harder to kill up close. I used Clear the Ground and Aimed shot as my at-wills. I was able to pick my target, zoom in, drop a ton of damage on him, move away and then re-engage from a different vector. Confusion was my stock-in-trade. The increased deflect combined with faster movement (was also using the Master Predator set) was a deadly combo. I had right about 35% bonus run speed, it was virtually impossible to get away from me and the only people that could keep me from running away from them was another HR.
As an archer, I am much more annoying. I wear the Royal Guard armor set. Hindering shot, Constricting Arrow and Marauder's are my usual encounters, FG and DS dailys, SS and Wolf remain my passives. I will frequently switch out Marauder's for Binding or Thorn Ward. Split Shot and Aimed shot are my at wills. Even as an archer I find that I use Aimed Strike (not shot) a LOT. I use Aimed Shot rarely, but it can be quite useful in some situations. Split Shot is a great PvP ranged attack, but I am not a "spammer", I choose my shot, try to hold it for as long as possible to increase the damage going down range. However, sometimes a quick split shot is the way to go, better to do low damage than no damage, and people tend to go a little spastic when they know a HR is peppering them from range. I use Hindering and Constricting to keep my distance, Marauder's to charge in to refill my stamina with Steel Breeze and Hindering Strike to keep people rooted. I do less damage as an archer, but I still do enough to help my team.
Both the Combat and Archer builds are great fun, but they play very differently even with a lot of power overlap. I prefer PvE to PvP (in general) so I am sticking with my archer build for now. You can find success in both PvP and PvE with either set up, but the HR really is a class that is more difficult to master than the others (IMO). Do not be afraid to do a respec if what you are playing is not working for you.
I do less damage as an archer, but I still do enough to help my team.
The other day I switched to a combat build and played with it for around 5 hours in PvP. Obviously I was nowhere near mastering the rotations and what not, but I had it down pretty good. Not using the exploit of course, I definitely noticed how bursty the combat side of HR's can be...but honestly, I found myself dieing more often, and in large fights, I.E; 1 vs 2+, I died twice as much as I did with my Archer build. Of course like I said I only played with it for around 5 hours so have a lot to learn on the combat side. But I fealt I had a pretty good grasp on good rotations and I'm a very active PvP'r which will help out on any class you decide to play.
I do much, much more damage in PvP with my Archer, I'm 3x as hard to kill, and even after the bursty rotation, I can still maintain high amounts of DPS while still being highly mobile. Where as in the combat side, after my initital burst rotation, if the person wasn't dead...I fealt like I didn't have many options other than to try and get away from the person and let cd's reset.
My ranged attacks are very large. Encounters used generally for pvp are: Binding Arrow, Constricting Arrow and Hindering Shot. All 3 of those encounters, are capable of 5k+ crits. I would say my average hits on any given target is around 4-5k, with crits going upwards too 8-10k(these are the highs). Disruptive Shot as a daily, also usually good for 4-5k. All of those encounters, including daily, are nearly instant cast. This 4 ability rotation; DS>Binding>Constricting>Hindering, is a very, very fast 15-20kdmg on one single person. As well as an insane CC Silence, and near -90% movement. My normal with Aimed Shot at max range in PvP are 15-20k. With 31k as my highest, to a 16k gs CW. 21k on a bis sent GWF. Now the melee side of these abilities, still does very decent damage, Aimed strike crits(I believe 3.1k was my highest on initital hit), generally 5-10k overall damage just from aimed strike. Steel breeze and hindering strike around 2-4k high crits(3k norm).
So, with the Archery build that I posted. The Ranged attack damage is incredible, and the melee damage is still above average.
Obviously the melee damage was higher than that of my Archer build. Increasing melee hits from 2-4k norm/high, to 5-6k/8-10k norm/high. But the ranged encounters were considerably lower damage. I was very unimpressed with the Combat side, because after the initial burst rotation, I found myself open quite often to an a$$ kicking.
Like I said, I only played for 5 hours with this build. I did well, fought bad players, good players and elite bis players, killed and died to them all. I was constantly saying to myself "if I was archer this wouldn't have happened".
Everyone I talk to, minus the couple guys I know that also play Archer, all say Combat>Archery.
I've been a fan of Archery since day 1 of my HR, I tried diligently(not using the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> exploit)to use Combat and learn. But my end conclusion, atleast for me, is Archery>Combat, by a landslide. In both PvP, and PvE..
K I'm going to make a few points munkey, these are more general points for everyone really.
As a combat HR you still use your ranged attacks a lot (hell a lot of times I drop people without ever using a melee attack, it all depends on how the fight goes)
I don't really like the build you were using but that's personal preference - This is what I run http://nwcalc.com/hr?b=p5r:4vkz7:9ulv,13k3iii:60000:b55uv:6u000&h=0&p=swd I filled out some of the powers too (there's points left over because in all honesty there's nothing else really worth putting them in for my playstyle so I just tell people to throw them wherever they want). I change the paragon feats around sometimes, sometimes drop Forest Walk for Bleeding Precision or Seeker for Retreat Technique (even though they're both pretty negligible)
Swap powers depending on what you're fighting and how the fight it going. Either use your CC or one of your evasive skills to buy yourself a window to do it (ME and Forest med are the best)
Focus on survivability since it's easy to get offensive stats with HR gear. Aim for a minimum of 30k hp, solid regen (at least 8% per tick), 30% damage reduction and deflect chance and 1.5k lifesteal.
I rerolled my HR last week since I wanted to change up the ability scores on her so she's coming back as a 20 dex/con/wis halfling
Talking as a combat HR who leveled as ranged but just recently switched back to combat in PVP, lemme point out a few things...
Now, given, you already have more GS than me and we've run together, so bear with me on that part.
First, retreat technique is useless.. you get 5 points. That means you have to shift 20 times, to get 100 AP. While the stamina gain from doing melee isn't major, it helps more, I've found, in my fighting.
One of the big ones that you missed for helping with survivability is elusive hunter. 10% deflection on top of what you have gear wise helps a lot. That's what lets me sit in there with the big boys and mix it up, even as they try to take me down. Helps when it's 3v1 and I'm still damaging all of them.
Personally, going combat, I would of picked up the stamina regen in ranged stance from Archery. Having more crit severity is nice, however it's not really going to be used, as you noted, most of it was melee attacks. You also took the at will damage increase, but in melee, you're gonna be targeted, a lot. I tend to pick up all the stamina regen stuff, as it is critical to survival, being able to dodge. That is a personal preference though.
With those changes, you should be a lot tougher in PVP. If you want to hit me up in game, we can talk about it a bit more so maybe I can help you out further?
edit - follow up on the other guy's spec
It's close to what I do. I found that forestwalk seems to be broken atm. So I actually took bleeding precision for more crit and the expert skirmisher for more speed. I've found in melee stance I'm at a 35% run speed boost. That's only with rank 5s, but I do have the green artifact with the movement boost. If I could buy higher ranked darks for utility, it'd get kind of scary.
I'm also in the pvp t1 set which is a 10% movement speed boost too.
Yah I hear what you guys are saying. The extra 10% into deflection would certainly help. Off the top of my head I was somewhere around 33% deflect 37%DR, 31k health and 9.8% regen..Lifesteal cant remember?..
I know with 100% certainty that if I played combat more, possibly tweaked a fiew things(however I feel my combat build was pretty good), I would obviously get much better.
I gave it a chance, 5 hours of non stop pvp. I just didn't feel like it was going to be as smooth as it was when I was Archery. Again, this would get better the more I played of course. But bottom line I feel like I am just a Ranged kinda guy with the HR. I absolutely love it, and I feel I am very good with my HR. Insane damage, incredible survivability, play feels fluid and smooth, 7 ability rotations done with ease and speed, able to contest and hold a point(not as good as my TR of course, but still very strong candidate for capping).
I would like to say I am going to try out a nature build next, but that's just not going to happen. Cryptic failed miserable as far as I'm concerned with all 3 Trees of the HR, Archery in my opinion(for my playstyle), is always going to be my choice.
I'd definitely like to see some more PvP videos out there of guys using Combat and not exploiting Fox shift and Stormstep though.
K I'm going to make a few points munkey, these are more general points for everyone really.
As a combat HR you still use your ranged attacks a lot (hell a lot of times I drop people without ever using a melee attack, it all depends on how the fight goes)
I don't really like the build you were using but that's personal preference - This is what I run http://nwcalc.com/hr?b=p5r:4vkz7:9ulv,13k3iii:60000:b55uv:6u000&h=0&p=swd I filled out some of the powers too (there's points left over because in all honesty there's nothing else really worth putting them in for my playstyle so I just tell people to throw them wherever they want). I change the paragon feats around sometimes, sometimes drop Forest Walk for Bleeding Precision or Seeker for Retreat Technique (even though they're both pretty negligible)
Swap powers depending on what you're fighting and how the fight it going. Either use your CC or one of your evasive skills to buy yourself a window to do it (ME and Forest med are the best)
Focus on survivability since it's easy to get offensive stats with HR gear. Aim for a minimum of 30k hp, solid regen (at least 8% per tick), 30% damage reduction and deflect chance and 1.5k lifesteal.
I rerolled my HR last week since I wanted to change up the ability scores on her so she's coming back as a 20 dex/con/wis halfling
I understand most of your choices in your build. However, NOT having Bleeding Precision in my opinion is a huge mistake. 10% run speed is absolutely nice I agree, but when you are so heavily focused in the Combat tree, and not giving your main source of damage 10% extra crit? Seems like a no brainer, like you said though personal preference.
I guess I'm looking at it like you are fighting against me personally. Having 10% more run speed isn't going to do you a lick of good against my HR, if I get into a 1 vs 1 fight with someone, even a GWF, the chances of you running away from me if you try, are slim to just about none. However having 10% more crit chance when you are hitting me, is much better, and useful.
You also spend points on maxing out 5 class features, but you didn't get Disruptive Shot. I don't understand that choice. Disruptive Shot is insane, and the way our Dailys work you can **** near constantly use the thing depending on the fight. Where as you can only use 2 class features at any given time. I cant imagine you really change them up that often?
I also feel(personal preference of course), that putting anymore points then 1/3 in Long Wolf and Aspect of the Pack is also a waste.
I think you and I think very differently as far as reasoning on ability, and stat distribution.
Do you have any pvp videos you can share? Or maybe your in game name? I'm curious to see how you fare with that build in PvP against skilled, geared players.
Yah I hear what you guys are saying. The extra 10% into deflection would certainly help. Off the top of my head I was somewhere around 33% deflect 37%DR, 31k health and 9.8% regen..Lifesteal cant remember?..
I know with 100% certainty that if I played combat more, possibly tweaked a fiew things(however I feel my combat build was pretty good), I would obviously get much better.
I gave it a chance, 5 hours of non stop pvp. I just didn't feel like it was going to be as smooth as it was when I was Archery. Again, this would get better the more I played of course. But bottom line I feel like I am just a Ranged kinda guy with the HR. I absolutely love it, and I feel I am very good with my HR. Insane damage, incredible survivability, play feels fluid and smooth, 7 ability rotations done with ease and speed, able to contest and hold a point(not as good as my TR of course, but still very strong candidate for capping).
I would like to say I am going to try out a nature build next, but that's just not going to happen. Cryptic failed miserable as far as I'm concerned with all 3 Trees of the HR, Archery in my opinion(for my playstyle), is always going to be my choice.
I'd definitely like to see some more PvP videos out there of guys using Combat and not exploiting Fox shift and Stormstep though.
That's part of why I love running with an archery HR with my combat HR. I'm in there mixing it up, so they focus on me and don't notice the bombs coming in at range. If they try to go for the ranged, then I stomp em.
I don't have any way to do video capture on my system, so unfortunately I can't do that. Otherwise I would. I don't use SS atm. You did mention lone wolf in your other post, that actually helps with my survival. If I'm 1v1, then it's a 20% increase in DR. If it's a ranged person who tries to get away to shoot me, it's 25. It's only if it's 4v1 that I don't really see an increase. I have a 30% DR base, with that one class feature I'm at a decent DR and that + Deflect pumps, I'm a hard bugger to kill.
In the end, I absolutely agree. It's a feel thing. That's what's so cool about the HR. Getting the feel of what style fits you and running with it. I run fox shift, boar charge, marauder's rush. It gives me 2 good buffs pre-combat, I tend to start a fight with aimed shot and switch to melee while it's running. as soon as I hit, I rush em, disrupting shot so they can't dodge, boar charge, then fox shift them while they're down. aim strike as they get up then use clear the ground with blade storm and combat mastery to kill em.
I'm ranged spec currently, but I still survive plenty. I can survive CC chains from CWs. I can kill things very quickly too. In PVP, a combat HR is beast for survival, considering they get extra deflect just for their stance. So.. yeah, I don't see that happening. Sorry.
The extra deflect chance for the HR is pathetic if u look right into it, u will stay in melle stance for so little time that u praticaly wont use it at all. And if u really do stay on melle for longer than the time required to use all your encounters, than your dps and your survivality will be even crapier.
Hr have a preaty bad survival on paper, if something really wants to go for it and kills it, if it manage to reach it, Hr is as good as dead, its CC wont stop anyone that has range to hit the HR, its dodge mechanic is the worst of the game and it does not have anything that makes it able to tank well, except maybe for ''lone wolf'' but that is another bad feature.
Plus, CW have mutch more single target dps than the HR, if u are surviving a cw chain, its because he is not well geared
anyway, I'm a 16.5k HR, with vorpal and I also have a same gs CW, Gwf and TR, so my conclusions are:
Single target DPS on PVE:
Cw: Higher, unless we are facing a target that does not move around
TR: Higher by milles
GWF: Higher by milles
Aoe dps on PVE:
Cw: Higher
Gwf: Higher
Tr: worst
Single target DPS on PVP:
Each and every class will do better than the HR unless no one is paying atention to it, basicaly, what makes HR single target dps compare to any other class, is the aimed shot, so if everyone is busy fighting others, u will have the same potential for damage as the other classes have, if that is not the case, then u will have a lower potential for damage.
Also, there is one more situation where your dps can compare to the other classes, its when someone is completaly alone and u are able to use fox shift to hit him fully.
Aoe DPS on pvp:
Here, if u use split shot, being or not an archer, you will have the best AOE
Survivability on pvp:
As I said before, HR have a terrible survival on paper, in fact the worst survivability possible, but if u are really good, u may manage to stay alive as mutch as any other class, HR excel the other classes in only one thing, mobility. That is something not everyone knows how to use well, but anyway, its what HR are good at and it will work to keep u alive if u know how to use it.
Buffs PVE:
The ways that Tr, CW and Gwf have to buff the party are basicaly using traits, sutch as student of the sword, the +5% crit chance of the TR and Renegator capstone of the CW. Personaly I prefer their buffs, since they will be able to use them with any combination of encounters, while the HR will loose a huge dps, witch is not already that great, if he is going to try any decent buff, meaning they will be preaty mutch useless unless they are nature spec, simple because HR buffs are not so great and they already lack in damage.
Anyway, my conclusion is that the HR is an underpowered class. On PVE any party will do better with someone else to ocupy the slot. But it is a very fun class to play with. The mobility of the class is very cool on pvp, it makes u able to beat someone with lower skill even if the class is a lot weaker.
The extra deflect chance for the HR is pathetic if u look right into it, u will stay in melle stance for so little time that u praticaly wont use it at all. And if u really do stay on melle for longer than the time required to use all your encounters, than your dps and your survivality will be even crapier.
Hr have a preaty bad survival, if something really wants to go for it and kills it, if it manage to reach it, Hr is as good as dead, its CC wont stop anyone that has range to hit the HR, its dodge mechanic is the worst of the game and it does not have anything that makes it able to tank well, except maybe for ''lone wolf'' but that is another bad feature.
Plus, CW have mutch more single target dps than the HR, if u are surviving a cw chain, its because he is not well geared
anyway, I'm a 16.5k HR, with vorpal and I also have a same gs CW, Gwf and TR, so my conclusions are:
Single target DPS on PVE:
Cw: Higher, unless we are facing a target that does not move around
TR: Higher by milles
GWF: Higher by milles
Aoe dps:
Cw: Higher
Gwf: Higher
Tr: worst
Buffs:
The ways that Tr, CW and Gwf have to buff the party are basicaly using traits, sutch as student of the sword, the +5% crit chance of the TR and Renegator capstone of the CW. Personaly I prefer their buffs, since they will be able to use them with any combination of encounters, while the HR will loose a huge dps, witch is not already that great, if he is going to try any decent buff, meaning they will be preaty mutch useless unless they are nature spec, simple because HR buffs are not so great and they already lack in damage.
I'm sorry friend but I disagree with...literally every single thing that you have said.
I think you may need a lot more practice with your HR if you truly believe what you just wrote.
With a 16k GS HR, its like you having a Suped Up Ferrari in your garage but you drive it like its a beat up old volkswagon.
When I wrote that I was range specced. Now I'm combat. Munkey found that ranged fit him. I found combat fit me. My base deflect for my 10.7k GS is 23%. In combat stance I'm at 37%. That's 1 in 3 attacks, roughly, that I deflect. I'm at about 30% DR. Before lonewolf, which puts me at 55, 1v1 in melee, it's 50% DR. I'm mostly in combat stance, so it actually helps me. A lot. I pop into ranged for buffs/ME.
The dodge is.. dodgy. Basically I have issues sometimes dodging DF. With the heavy stam regain feating I do, I almost always have a dodge to avoid anything else. I also play a high RoI spec, high Int. When I'm in combat range and I've done my combo on them, 1 of 2 things is happening. A) They're trying to recover from the massive beat down I just gave em and fight back or They're running. Ironically, in melee stance I'm at 35% run speed. I can almost out run a tier 1 horse. They aren't going to out run me.
From the sounds of it, you haven't found your style of HR. If you keep trying, you'll find the type that makes it click for you too.
edit: The issue with dodging DF? They do the first 2 swings, I dodge, flurry animation starts and makes them jump to me. So it's not that I don't know how to dodge it. it's that the system has the flurry jump to me. Then even if I dodge during the DF, they stick. That part sucks.
edit: The issue with dodging DF? They do the first 2 swings, I dodge, flurry animation starts and makes them jump to me. So it's not that I don't know how to dodge it. it's that the system has the flurry jump to me. Then even if I dodge during the DF, they stick. That part sucks.
Try this.
Instead of actually using a dodge to avoid the first 2 parts of animation, just move out of the way. You said you move at 35% speed, with that I cant imagine you actually need to "dodge"...you can just high tale it out of there.
Or..allow them to hit you with the first, second part..The minute they go into the animation dodge "2 times"... You will be far enough away that you avoid the DF.
Whats happening...Is the animation part itself, WITHOUT jumping, will move the TR slightly closer to its target. So if you are technically out of melee range, you may still be close enough so the animation "pulls the TR" to you, thus hitting you with DF.
I know this because I also play a TR whose very good at DF, and I use that simple fact, to gain even more ground on my enemy.
Try what I said though, either just run away completely "if you can". Or, allow them to start the animation, then dodge twice in a row. I guarantee you'll get out of the animation, and only take 1 single Hit if you are paying attention, and of course if your ping doesn't suck.
Oh, agreed, there's quite a bit of time I can get away just running. Heck, if I'm careful, clear the ground has enough range I can keep hitting them without DF hitting me. I generally don't dodge the first 2 hits, just move while continuing to attack. I'll try to double tap dodging now, to see if it works. I have had times where I dodged once, the Tr latched on, dodged again and it just dragged them along. Like what can happen in a Sing and stuff. It's quite frustrating and often be the difference in beating a TR and getting killed.
Comments
I agree, but this doesn't make me want to re-think my statement. PvE stars and PvP stars are bad for a game without competitve content in either PvE or PvP. I mean the same can be said for people grabbing a P.Vorpal, joining Pirate King and having 'noobs' awed by their 20m damage before 2nd boss.
By the way, Choco if you want I can join you in some dungeons. I need the gear on my HR since I can't find any queues
Shadow, my gwf, hr and dc all have crit at 3k-4k, but not primarily for the extra damage/heals, but for triggering feats. You say my builds are weak, but that's due to not realizing power does not contribute anything to the utility of classes. Power has zero effect on the damage reduction of hallowed ground/astral shield, the duration of control effects by cw, or the damage proc of gwf deep gash (the tooltip is wrong), and a hr who spams throw caution and also has 40-50% of the effective hp of glass cannon hr's has stronger attacks AND survival as opposed to an hr who can't abuse throw caution properly (close range with stormstep) because he would die in a single aoe attack.
As for giving up aggro, that is a detriment to the rest of the group. When I play any of my four other toons, I never try to avoid aggro. HR is the only one where I have to hide or lay off attacking because it is too weak to handle more than a couple of mobs at once. My gwf and dc can tank entire rooms in cn indefinitely, and they contribute greatly to the team by taking all the aggro until they can be well controlled by the cw's. My cw will facetank an entire room in cn until she can control the mobs. While people like you run around in circles or using forest ghost far from any mobs to hide trying to avoid dying since you have 800 defense and 20k hp, my toons will stand their ground and constantly attack, constantly building ap to contribute a lot more damage and utility to the team than a glass cannon can.
hida, thanks for a civil response. Anytime we're both on let's do whatever dungeon you need and let's put to rest this stupid notion I don't know how to play hr.
Sure, add me in game. I surely don't know how to play my HR on PvE. Consider it a teaching run.
I am a PVPer.. so that means, defense, which is at 2k for my HR. Deflect, which is up to 33%. HP so I'm at 27k there and crit. That's the core of what I use. I don't stack power. It's a secondary that is in the gear and whatever. I'm in T1 pvp, as I don't have a lot of time to do GG or DD's. I'm in R5s because that's all I can afford. I give up aggro when I play my TR. You control aggro with a controller, wow, big surprise there! You also tank with.. gasp, tanks! Guess what? so do I! amazing!
I don't hide in a corner and pray they go away. I hit forest ghost and mix it up. Stealth makes them switch targets, making it so the tank can get back aggro. meanwhile I do MORE damage to them with forest ghost. I work with the group to keep stuff together, rather than run around like an idiot.
By the way, I know power doesn't add to the DR reduction of shield. It DOES add to the damage base for a crit daunting light. It also adds to the damage for forgemaster flame AND increases the heal it does too. That said? I don't stack power on my DC either. I stack crit as critical DoTs are critical for the full amount and can eat through other players. My GWF is actually my least developed character, although the first one I've hit 60 with, as I just can't really get into the play style. That said, he has regen/defense/deflect. So, amazingly enough, you're still assuming stuff.
I can kill stuff that is built your way, with stuff built my way.
It's a matter of play style, which I have also said. Just because you can't make a super defense HR, which is your play style, they're weak, etc, etc, etc. Like you continue to spout. So what if many players have show and done otherwise.
I never responded to the OP. I responded to Choco, who is of the opinion that HR's are totally useless, without the Stormstep bug.
You say HR's are worthless and squishy and cant do anything without a bug.
Many of us disagree.
You say you have a 16k GS and 12 days played as an HR and that affords you the right to say you are omnipotent of the class and we are all wrong to disagree with you.
You tell me to join you in a dungeon and "watch in amazement as you DOUBLE my HR's damage. I accepted that ridiculous challenge, and challenged you to put your money where your mouth is with a 2mil bet. (which obviously you are declining as you completely ignored that statement).
Your above quotes make me lol inside@u.
Your personal success's with the HR is admittedly only because of a broken mechanic/exploit. Far as I'm concerned any opinion at all you have on the HR is null and void. All you know is how to play an exploit to success, and that is pathetic in my book.
What makes me laugh the most reading all the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you say, is you speak like PvE is actually difficult. Like you need some special group comp to be effective or fast. News flash
> PvE is EASY!
Want fast? 1 DC 4 CW's..Fastest group you'll get.
Want to clear every single dungon this game has? Grab some buddies and go, PvE is a snoozefest.
I did start this thread because, from grouping with them, all of you are right.
they are good. they are terrible. They drop aggro np. they have aggro issues and run around like they are on fire and I have to chase them down. They spam split shot. they mix it up combat/archery using all 6 encounters. they deal good dmg. they deal cleric dmg. All of these things happen in dungeons with HR, because the class is new and skill level and gear is so wildly varied.
I was only concerned about PVE. I have a good deal of experience fighting HRs in PVP so I get what they're about there, which as an OP gwf in pvp, archery = lunch and combat = run away before he sees me.
I was running a combat HR, with marauder's, Boars and Fox as my encounters, SS and DS (Disruptive Shot) as my daily powers, Lone Wolf and SS for passives. But I rarely used the exploit. I know that it is going to be fixed and I did not want to rely on a broken power combo. I respec'd to an archer build, which I am currently playing so I feel confident that I can speak to both sides of the discussion.
As a melee build I was much more dangerous, it was far easier to get kills and I was MUCH harder to kill up close. I used Clear the Ground and Aimed shot as my at-wills. I was able to pick my target, zoom in, drop a ton of damage on him, move away and then re-engage from a different vector. Confusion was my stock-in-trade. The increased deflect combined with faster movement (was also using the Master Predator set) was a deadly combo. I had right about 35% bonus run speed, it was virtually impossible to get away from me and the only people that could keep me from running away from them was another HR.
As an archer, I am much more annoying. I wear the Royal Guard armor set. Hindering shot, Constricting Arrow and Marauder's are my usual encounters, FG and DS dailys, SS and Wolf remain my passives. I will frequently switch out Marauder's for Binding or Thorn Ward. Split Shot and Aimed shot are my at wills. Even as an archer I find that I use Aimed Strike (not shot) a LOT. I use Aimed Shot rarely, but it can be quite useful in some situations. Split Shot is a great PvP ranged attack, but I am not a "spammer", I choose my shot, try to hold it for as long as possible to increase the damage going down range. However, sometimes a quick split shot is the way to go, better to do low damage than no damage, and people tend to go a little spastic when they know a HR is peppering them from range. I use Hindering and Constricting to keep my distance, Marauder's to charge in to refill my stamina with Steel Breeze and Hindering Strike to keep people rooted. I do less damage as an archer, but I still do enough to help my team.
Both the Combat and Archer builds are great fun, but they play very differently even with a lot of power overlap. I prefer PvE to PvP (in general) so I am sticking with my archer build for now. You can find success in both PvP and PvE with either set up, but the HR really is a class that is more difficult to master than the others (IMO). Do not be afraid to do a respec if what you are playing is not working for you.
The other day I switched to a combat build and played with it for around 5 hours in PvP. Obviously I was nowhere near mastering the rotations and what not, but I had it down pretty good. Not using the exploit of course, I definitely noticed how bursty the combat side of HR's can be...but honestly, I found myself dieing more often, and in large fights, I.E; 1 vs 2+, I died twice as much as I did with my Archer build. Of course like I said I only played with it for around 5 hours so have a lot to learn on the combat side. But I fealt I had a pretty good grasp on good rotations and I'm a very active PvP'r which will help out on any class you decide to play.
I do much, much more damage in PvP with my Archer, I'm 3x as hard to kill, and even after the bursty rotation, I can still maintain high amounts of DPS while still being highly mobile. Where as in the combat side, after my initital burst rotation, if the person wasn't dead...I fealt like I didn't have many options other than to try and get away from the person and let cd's reset.
What I noticed: In my archer build that I have now --- http://nwcalc.com/hr?b=cn4:2hwcg:5m9s,13j3ifc:6z551:60000:bu000&h=0&p=swd
My ranged attacks are very large. Encounters used generally for pvp are: Binding Arrow, Constricting Arrow and Hindering Shot. All 3 of those encounters, are capable of 5k+ crits. I would say my average hits on any given target is around 4-5k, with crits going upwards too 8-10k(these are the highs). Disruptive Shot as a daily, also usually good for 4-5k. All of those encounters, including daily, are nearly instant cast. This 4 ability rotation; DS>Binding>Constricting>Hindering, is a very, very fast 15-20kdmg on one single person. As well as an insane CC Silence, and near -90% movement. My normal with Aimed Shot at max range in PvP are 15-20k. With 31k as my highest, to a 16k gs CW. 21k on a bis sent GWF. Now the melee side of these abilities, still does very decent damage, Aimed strike crits(I believe 3.1k was my highest on initital hit), generally 5-10k overall damage just from aimed strike. Steel breeze and hindering strike around 2-4k high crits(3k norm).
So, with the Archery build that I posted. The Ranged attack damage is incredible, and the melee damage is still above average.
This is the Combat build I was using :http://nwcalc.com/hr?b=cn4:2hwcg:5m9s,13j3ifc:6z000:6z551:60000&h=0&p=swd
Obviously the melee damage was higher than that of my Archer build. Increasing melee hits from 2-4k norm/high, to 5-6k/8-10k norm/high. But the ranged encounters were considerably lower damage. I was very unimpressed with the Combat side, because after the initial burst rotation, I found myself open quite often to an a$$ kicking.
Like I said, I only played for 5 hours with this build. I did well, fought bad players, good players and elite bis players, killed and died to them all. I was constantly saying to myself "if I was archer this wouldn't have happened".
Everyone I talk to, minus the couple guys I know that also play Archer, all say Combat>Archery.
I've been a fan of Archery since day 1 of my HR, I tried diligently(not using the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> exploit)to use Combat and learn. But my end conclusion, atleast for me, is Archery>Combat, by a landslide. In both PvP, and PvE..
Thoughts?
As a combat HR you still use your ranged attacks a lot (hell a lot of times I drop people without ever using a melee attack, it all depends on how the fight goes)
I don't really like the build you were using but that's personal preference - This is what I run http://nwcalc.com/hr?b=p5r:4vkz7:9ulv,13k3iii:60000:b55uv:6u000&h=0&p=swd I filled out some of the powers too (there's points left over because in all honesty there's nothing else really worth putting them in for my playstyle so I just tell people to throw them wherever they want). I change the paragon feats around sometimes, sometimes drop Forest Walk for Bleeding Precision or Seeker for Retreat Technique (even though they're both pretty negligible)
Swap powers depending on what you're fighting and how the fight it going. Either use your CC or one of your evasive skills to buy yourself a window to do it (ME and Forest med are the best)
Focus on survivability since it's easy to get offensive stats with HR gear. Aim for a minimum of 30k hp, solid regen (at least 8% per tick), 30% damage reduction and deflect chance and 1.5k lifesteal.
I rerolled my HR last week since I wanted to change up the ability scores on her so she's coming back as a 20 dex/con/wis halfling
Talking as a combat HR who leveled as ranged but just recently switched back to combat in PVP, lemme point out a few things...
Now, given, you already have more GS than me and we've run together, so bear with me on that part.
First, retreat technique is useless.. you get 5 points. That means you have to shift 20 times, to get 100 AP. While the stamina gain from doing melee isn't major, it helps more, I've found, in my fighting.
One of the big ones that you missed for helping with survivability is elusive hunter. 10% deflection on top of what you have gear wise helps a lot. That's what lets me sit in there with the big boys and mix it up, even as they try to take me down. Helps when it's 3v1 and I'm still damaging all of them.
Personally, going combat, I would of picked up the stamina regen in ranged stance from Archery. Having more crit severity is nice, however it's not really going to be used, as you noted, most of it was melee attacks. You also took the at will damage increase, but in melee, you're gonna be targeted, a lot.
With those changes, you should be a lot tougher in PVP. If you want to hit me up in game, we can talk about it a bit more so maybe I can help you out further?
edit - follow up on the other guy's spec
It's close to what I do. I found that forestwalk seems to be broken atm. So I actually took bleeding precision for more crit and the expert skirmisher for more speed. I've found in melee stance I'm at a 35% run speed boost. That's only with rank 5s, but I do have the green artifact with the movement boost. If I could buy higher ranked darks for utility, it'd get kind of scary.
I'm also in the pvp t1 set which is a 10% movement speed boost too.
I know with 100% certainty that if I played combat more, possibly tweaked a fiew things(however I feel my combat build was pretty good), I would obviously get much better.
I gave it a chance, 5 hours of non stop pvp. I just didn't feel like it was going to be as smooth as it was when I was Archery. Again, this would get better the more I played of course. But bottom line I feel like I am just a Ranged kinda guy with the HR. I absolutely love it, and I feel I am very good with my HR. Insane damage, incredible survivability, play feels fluid and smooth, 7 ability rotations done with ease and speed, able to contest and hold a point(not as good as my TR of course, but still very strong candidate for capping).
I would like to say I am going to try out a nature build next, but that's just not going to happen. Cryptic failed miserable as far as I'm concerned with all 3 Trees of the HR, Archery in my opinion(for my playstyle), is always going to be my choice.
I'd definitely like to see some more PvP videos out there of guys using Combat and not exploiting Fox shift and Stormstep though.
I understand most of your choices in your build. However, NOT having Bleeding Precision in my opinion is a huge mistake. 10% run speed is absolutely nice I agree, but when you are so heavily focused in the Combat tree, and not giving your main source of damage 10% extra crit? Seems like a no brainer, like you said though personal preference.
I guess I'm looking at it like you are fighting against me personally. Having 10% more run speed isn't going to do you a lick of good against my HR, if I get into a 1 vs 1 fight with someone, even a GWF, the chances of you running away from me if you try, are slim to just about none. However having 10% more crit chance when you are hitting me, is much better, and useful.
You also spend points on maxing out 5 class features, but you didn't get Disruptive Shot. I don't understand that choice. Disruptive Shot is insane, and the way our Dailys work you can **** near constantly use the thing depending on the fight. Where as you can only use 2 class features at any given time. I cant imagine you really change them up that often?
I also feel(personal preference of course), that putting anymore points then 1/3 in Long Wolf and Aspect of the Pack is also a waste.
I think you and I think very differently as far as reasoning on ability, and stat distribution.
Do you have any pvp videos you can share? Or maybe your in game name? I'm curious to see how you fare with that build in PvP against skilled, geared players.
That's part of why I love running with an archery HR with my combat HR. I'm in there mixing it up, so they focus on me and don't notice the bombs coming in at range. If they try to go for the ranged, then I stomp em.
I don't have any way to do video capture on my system, so unfortunately I can't do that. Otherwise I would. I don't use SS atm. You did mention lone wolf in your other post, that actually helps with my survival. If I'm 1v1, then it's a 20% increase in DR. If it's a ranged person who tries to get away to shoot me, it's 25. It's only if it's 4v1 that I don't really see an increase. I have a 30% DR base, with that one class feature I'm at a decent DR and that + Deflect pumps, I'm a hard bugger to kill.
In the end, I absolutely agree. It's a feel thing. That's what's so cool about the HR. Getting the feel of what style fits you and running with it. I run fox shift, boar charge, marauder's rush. It gives me 2 good buffs pre-combat, I tend to start a fight with aimed shot and switch to melee while it's running. as soon as I hit, I rush em, disrupting shot so they can't dodge, boar charge, then fox shift them while they're down. aim strike as they get up then use clear the ground with blade storm and combat mastery to kill em.
The extra deflect chance for the HR is pathetic if u look right into it, u will stay in melle stance for so little time that u praticaly wont use it at all. And if u really do stay on melle for longer than the time required to use all your encounters, than your dps and your survivality will be even crapier.
Hr have a preaty bad survival on paper, if something really wants to go for it and kills it, if it manage to reach it, Hr is as good as dead, its CC wont stop anyone that has range to hit the HR, its dodge mechanic is the worst of the game and it does not have anything that makes it able to tank well, except maybe for ''lone wolf'' but that is another bad feature.
Plus, CW have mutch more single target dps than the HR, if u are surviving a cw chain, its because he is not well geared
anyway, I'm a 16.5k HR, with vorpal and I also have a same gs CW, Gwf and TR, so my conclusions are:
Single target DPS on PVE:
Cw: Higher, unless we are facing a target that does not move around
TR: Higher by milles
GWF: Higher by milles
Aoe dps on PVE:
Cw: Higher
Gwf: Higher
Tr: worst
Single target DPS on PVP:
Each and every class will do better than the HR unless no one is paying atention to it, basicaly, what makes HR single target dps compare to any other class, is the aimed shot, so if everyone is busy fighting others, u will have the same potential for damage as the other classes have, if that is not the case, then u will have a lower potential for damage.
Also, there is one more situation where your dps can compare to the other classes, its when someone is completaly alone and u are able to use fox shift to hit him fully.
Aoe DPS on pvp:
Here, if u use split shot, being or not an archer, you will have the best AOE
Survivability on pvp:
As I said before, HR have a terrible survival on paper, in fact the worst survivability possible, but if u are really good, u may manage to stay alive as mutch as any other class, HR excel the other classes in only one thing, mobility. That is something not everyone knows how to use well, but anyway, its what HR are good at and it will work to keep u alive if u know how to use it.
Buffs PVE:
The ways that Tr, CW and Gwf have to buff the party are basicaly using traits, sutch as student of the sword, the +5% crit chance of the TR and Renegator capstone of the CW. Personaly I prefer their buffs, since they will be able to use them with any combination of encounters, while the HR will loose a huge dps, witch is not already that great, if he is going to try any decent buff, meaning they will be preaty mutch useless unless they are nature spec, simple because HR buffs are not so great and they already lack in damage.
Anyway, my conclusion is that the HR is an underpowered class. On PVE any party will do better with someone else to ocupy the slot. But it is a very fun class to play with. The mobility of the class is very cool on pvp, it makes u able to beat someone with lower skill even if the class is a lot weaker.
I'm sorry friend but I disagree with...literally every single thing that you have said.
I think you may need a lot more practice with your HR if you truly believe what you just wrote.
With a 16k GS HR, its like you having a Suped Up Ferrari in your garage but you drive it like its a beat up old volkswagon.
The dodge is.. dodgy. Basically I have issues sometimes dodging DF. With the heavy stam regain feating I do, I almost always have a dodge to avoid anything else. I also play a high RoI spec, high Int. When I'm in combat range and I've done my combo on them, 1 of 2 things is happening. A) They're trying to recover from the massive beat down I just gave em and fight back or
From the sounds of it, you haven't found your style of HR. If you keep trying, you'll find the type that makes it click for you too.
edit: The issue with dodging DF? They do the first 2 swings, I dodge, flurry animation starts and makes them jump to me. So it's not that I don't know how to dodge it. it's that the system has the flurry jump to me. Then even if I dodge during the DF, they stick. That part sucks.
Try this.
Instead of actually using a dodge to avoid the first 2 parts of animation, just move out of the way. You said you move at 35% speed, with that I cant imagine you actually need to "dodge"...you can just high tale it out of there.
Or..allow them to hit you with the first, second part..The minute they go into the animation dodge "2 times"... You will be far enough away that you avoid the DF.
Whats happening...Is the animation part itself, WITHOUT jumping, will move the TR slightly closer to its target. So if you are technically out of melee range, you may still be close enough so the animation "pulls the TR" to you, thus hitting you with DF.
I know this because I also play a TR whose very good at DF, and I use that simple fact, to gain even more ground on my enemy.
Try what I said though, either just run away completely "if you can". Or, allow them to start the animation, then dodge twice in a row. I guarantee you'll get out of the animation, and only take 1 single Hit if you are paying attention, and of course if your ping doesn't suck.