Mount Training Cost - Time to Revisit

valiant4ever · January 2014

Hi All (Devs & Gamers),

I know this is something often talked about in game and on forums, but as of yet not addressed.
However with all the positive changes in the game I think it is a great time to revisit.

Mount Training II ...... 768,000 AD
Mount Training III ..... 2,064,000 AD

My thoughts are ideally a reduction in price in line with the companion price reductions (approx. 40-60%) would be far more reasonable and lead to an influx of players purchasing these tokens. However I do appreciate these will need to be balanced against the cost of Zen mounts so as not to detract players from purchasing those in which case a reduction of 25% in cost may be more feasible.

Hopefully fine tuning this cost would be a win-win, leading to an influx of extra capital for developers as well as making a greater selection of mounts far more accessible to gamers for use on a day to day basis around Neverwinter.

To be honest wouldn't even mind seeing these tokens taken out of the wondrous bazaar and placed as items available via the Zen store if it alleviated any conflict of interest with other Zen mounts.

Thanks for reading!

angrysprite · January 2014

TL;DR: I agree completely, but I also say let's try to be patient.

Neverwinter is still less than a year old and Cryptic is still learning to figure out the economy and how to manage it (hence the changes in Z-Store Companion pricing, the switch from Astral Diamonds to Gold for enchantment removal, etc.)

The simple fact is that the cost of upgrading mounts and companions is expensive on purpose, to encourage players to spend Zen Points. Albeit, those upgrade costs are massively out-of-whack from the rest of the Astral Diamond/Zen Point economy and Cryptic by now certainly knows this. I'm sure they have discussed it and will continue discussing it until they come up with what they feel is a good idea.

I have no doubt these upgrade prices will change for the better eventually. How much better, I don't know. Now that the Z-Store Companions are in a better (though not great) position, price-wise, hopefully they'll now turn their attention to this specific issue.

Star Trek Online had major in-game economy issues for its first year or so also. I think it was at the 18 month mark before it finally settled in on what it is now. Hopefully it won;t take that long for Neverwinter, but in the end: patience is a virtue, as they say.

twstdecho · January 2014

Upgrading a mount in game it too expensive when you consider the cost compared to purchasing a purple mount in the Zen store that is then unlocked for all characters. If only there was a better solution...

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?528251-Mount-Skins

bendalek · January 2014

Well as it was with Companion Upgrades (at least before the price drop on the Z-Store, so Cryptic needs to get on that) The upgrade price for mounts should be roughly equivalent to purchasing a comparable level Z-Store mount, i.e upgrading the blue Orange Tiger, should not cost more than the difference in purchase price of the Purple White Tiger, yet at the moment it's nearly double the price on top of the original purchase price!

I know Z to AD exchange rates can fluctuate, but even at the capped (by Cryptic I might add) rate of 500AD <-> 1 Zen, it's still outrageous! And most of the time it's sits around 380 to 400AD per Zen ...

If Tomes made the mount Account Unlock? That may make it more worthwhile. If it allowed you to also customise the skin of the mount? That might also make it more palatable ... but ATM it's a big box of ... Nope!

runebane · January 2014

angrysprite wrote: »

The simple fact is that the cost of upgrading mounts and companions is expensive on purpose, to encourage players to spend Zen Points.

No matter how many times this argument is brought up, it will never make sense. They have Zen shop mounts that are not max speed. They'd sell -more- of them if the upgrade cost was reasonable or if the upgrade was account-wide. In other words, leaving as it is - is costing them money.

Even if you look at the upgrade cost as a pure AD sink. It'd be better at a lower price point. At a much lower cost they'd sell a lot more of them than they are now. Then more AD will actually get drained out of the economy. Right now the only players using it are those with with so much AD they don't know what to do with it. In other words, very few people. At a reasonable cost more people will use it once. Once they've opened that door (so to speak) and upgraded a mount... then they are more likely to upgrade another in the future.

charononus · January 2014

Prices are way out there for these. Lets assume that the ad to zen ratio is 500:1.

The purple mounts vary a bit in price but lets use a 3500zen one as an example.

That means that 3500*500 = 1750000 ad

This is for all toons on your account not just one.

khalith01 · January 2014

Definitely agree with you OP, the prices are way out of hand.

ambisinisterr · January 2014

I don't think even 40-60% would be enough.

Let's take three different Zen:AD values and estimate the cost in USD to train a mount if it was reduced 50%.

50% of 2,064,000 is 1,032,000 AD just to go from Rank 2 to Rank 3.

1 Zen = 500 AD. (Super Cheap AD)
1,032,000 / 500 = 2,064 Zen.
That's $20.64.

1 Zen = 400 AD. (seems to be about the norm)
1,032,000 / 400 = 2,580 Zen.
That's $25.80.

1 Zen = 350 AD. (About as expensive as AD will normally get)
1,0321,000 / 350 = 2,948 Zen.
That's $29.48.

So we're looking at a price between $20 (at utmost best) and $30 to upgrade a mount from Tier 2 to Tier 3.
Then count in that Tier 2 haven't ever been given away for free. Tier 2 mounts are purchased from the shop for $20.

Now that $20 Dollar Mount you bought just turned into a $40-50 Mount. Yikes.

Then we add in the real kicker, that upgrade only effect the mount on that character.

This isn't very overpriced. This is astronomically overpriced.
Even a 75% reduction likely wouldn't be enough unless they make upgrade tomes account wide. In my opinion we should be looking at an 80-90% decrease in price which would bring the cost to upgrade a mount to:

Rank 2: 76,800 - 153,600
Rank 3: 203,200 - 406,400

And even with an 80% price reduction we're still talking a minimum of $11.20 per mount.

P.S. - As a side note I would be perfectly fine paying the price, exactly as is, if the upgrade effected every mount on every character.
Not every mount of that type, every mount I have and ever get on every character.

chocobofarmer · January 2014

Right now probably 90% of the people buying mount training manuals are using real life money because it is rare for people to grind so much AD they can throw it away on increasing a cosmetic mount's speed. I propose cryptic actually increase the price of mount training manuals, because the majority of people buying them are already the type of people to spend large amounts of real life money on cosmetic items in the game. A price at 2M AD for training manual II, and a price of 5M-10M AD for training manul III, is likely to maximize profits.

angrysprite · January 2014

runebane wrote: »

No matter how many times this argument is brought up, it will never make sense.

I agree - when the statement is used on it's own. But you are taking my statement out of context. Please reread the entire statement so the one you debunk actually makes sense to you. I will say it again:

The high cost of upgrading companions and mounts is to encourage Zen Point sales. However, the current cost is too high and needs to be revisited.

See the second part of the above statement? That's the primary point, though I still stand by the first sentence. Professional tip: Comprehension is your friend.

Now, to properly remain on-topic and contribute further: I believe the cost should be no more that the Zen Point costs difference between the different ranks of each mount. It seems to me the fact that these upgrade are character-bound (one character only) would be incentive enough to keep the motivation for buying new mounts from the Z-Store.

However, there are those special mounts, such as the Winter Event Sled, that people cannot obtain any other way and would seriously consider upgrading if the cost were not so prohibitive.

mconosrep · January 2014

chocobofarmer wrote: »

Right now probably 90% of the people buying mount training manuals are using real life money because it is rare for people to grind so much AD they can throw it away on increasing a cosmetic mount's speed. I propose cryptic actually increase the price of mount training manuals, because the majority of people buying them are already the type of people to spend large amounts of real life money on cosmetic items in the game. A price at 2M AD for training manual II, and a price of 5M-10M AD for training manul III, is likely to maximize profits.

I think the post was meant to be ironic, but there might well be something to this. Many a true word said in jest and all that...

ulkaur · January 2014

Seriously, at the current pricing for mount upgrades, it's just not going to happen. it doesn't take a seasoned developer to realize this. At a year there could be any number of surveys done, asking us what we like, what we don't like, what we might or might not use if the prices went up/down, whatever. The pricing needs to be reduced to an impulse buy.

I bought the guardian pack that came with a rank 3 mount. I have mounts sitting on the reclaim vendor because i don't want a 50% mount that I will never upgrade at current prices to clog up my inventory.

rafa2306 · January 2014

Yeah, can't believe they didn't fix it yet, I have friends that spend a lot of time and money in game and even they don't pop 2 mil like that. One of them was crazy to get the skeleton horse, but in the end he didn't cause the training price is absurd. I can relate, several green mounts would be fun to use, but 3mil is not easy to come by and even so it has so many other uses.

sasheria · January 2014

ambisinisterr wrote: »

I don't think even 40-60% would be enough.

Let's take three different Zen:AD values and estimate the cost in USD to train a mount if it was reduced 50%.
50% of 2,064,000 is 1,032,000 AD just to go from Rank 2 to Rank 3.

1 Zen = 500 AD. (Super Cheap AD)
1,032,000 / 500 = 2,064 Zen.
That's $20.64.

1 Zen = 400 AD. (seems to be about the norm)
1,032,000 / 400 = 2,580 Zen.
That's $25.80.

1 Zen = 350 AD. (About as expensive as AD will normally get)
1,0321,000 / 350 = 2,948 Zen.
That's $29.48.

So we're looking at a price between $20 (at utmost best) and $30 to upgrade a mount from Tier 2 to Tier 3.
Then count in that Tier 2 haven't ever been given away for free. Tier 2 mounts are purchased from the shop for $20.

Now that $20 Dollar Mount you bought just turned into a $40-50 Mount. Yikes.

Then we add in the real kicker, that upgrade only effect the mount on that character.

This isn't very overpriced. This is astronomically overpriced.
Even a 75% reduction likely wouldn't be enough unless they make upgrade tomes account wide. In my opinion we should be looking at an 80-90% decrease in price which would bring the cost to upgrade a mount to:

Rank 2: 76,800 - 153,600
Rank 3: 203,200 - 406,400

And even with an 80% price reduction we're still talking a minimum of $11.20 per mount.

P.S. - As a side note I would be perfectly fine paying the price, exactly as is, if the upgrade effected every mount on every character.
Not every mount of that type, every mount I have and ever get on every character.

It is cheaper just to buy the mount for all characters. I do agree that the price SHOULD be lower for a single character option.

panderus · January 2014

We are certainly aware of this issue and are in talks about how to address this for a future update. No information at this time other than we agree this is an issue we want to address in a more elegant method.

ambisinisterr · January 2014

Thanks for the update Panderus!

giggliato · January 2014

panderus wrote: »

We are certainly aware of this issue and are in talks about how to address this for a future update. No information at this time other than we agree this is an issue we want to address in a more elegant method.

Well that's somewhat good news. Has anyone ever used those mount training tokens besides a few outliers?

Here is some elegance for ya, Get rid of individual mount ranks, create an account wide mount stable button at the top of the screen, allow the purchase of account bound mount upgrades that when used instantly upgrades all mounts in accounts possession to specified rank.

Every user would have a new goal, get enough AD/Zen to purchase the token.

Individual mount prices in the Zen store would have to be standardized.

hobokenboy · January 2014

angrysprite wrote: »

TL;DR: I agree completely, but I also say let's try to be patient.

Neverwinter is still less than a year old and Cryptic is still learning to figure out the economy and how to manage it (hence the changes in Z-Store Companion pricing, the switch from Astral Diamonds to Gold for enchantment removal, etc.)

The simple fact is that the cost of upgrading mounts and companions is expensive on purpose, to encourage players to spend Zen Points. Albeit, those upgrade costs are massively out-of-whack from the rest of the Astral Diamond/Zen Point economy and Cryptic by now certainly knows this. I'm sure they have discussed it and will continue discussing it until they come up with what they feel is a good idea.

I have no doubt these upgrade prices will change for the better eventually. How much better, I don't know. Now that the Z-Store Companions are in a better (though not great) position, price-wise, hopefully they'll now turn their attention to this specific issue.

Star Trek Online had major in-game economy issues for its first year or so also. I think it was at the 18 month mark before it finally settled in on what it is now. Hopefully it won;t take that long for Neverwinter, but in the end: patience is a virtue, as they say.

You really believe that? C'mon, they've had two other games to iron this out. Couple that with the fact that this has been an issue since open "release" beta and you (the entire playerbase, really) should be worried.

melodywhr · January 2014

hobokenboy wrote: »

You really believe that? C'mon, they've had two other games to iron this out. Couple that with the fact that this has been an issue since open "release" beta and you (the entire playerbase, really) should be worried.

in my opinion, you can't base their other games on this. each game has its own player-driven economy and how that develops will play a part in what changes are made. it's like someone that's the first to try to list something on the AH and they don't know exactly what price to put on it. sure, the game has been live since july but they've had their hands full with quite a bit and the mount training tomes just aren't a huge priority. also, as stated by panderus up there, this IS going to change eventually.

hobokenboy · January 2014

melodywhr wrote: »

in my opinion, you can't base their other games on this. each game has its own player-driven economy and how that develops will play a part in what changes are made. it's like someone that's the first to try to list something on the AH and they don't know exactly what price to put on it. sure, the game has been live since july but they've had their hands full with quite a bit and the mount training tomes just aren't a huge priority. also, as stated by panderus up there, this IS going to change eventually.

You'll forgive me if I remain skeptical on the good Pandarus' statement, based upon past performances of this company.

artanisen · January 2014

here is a suggestion,

add the new refinement method onto mounts
sell the mount training items in the zen shop
and add mount refining point tokens at the mount trader.
and add a inventory bag for mounts...
and a collections tab for mounts lol..

sasheria · January 2014

melodywhr wrote: »

in my opinion, you can't base their other games on this. each game has its own player-driven economy and how that develops will play a part in what changes are made. it's like someone that's the first to try to list something on the AH and they don't know exactly what price to put on it. sure, the game has been live since july but they've had their hands full with quite a bit and the mount training tomes just aren't a huge priority. also, as stated by panderus up there, this IS going to change eventually.

While I agree that some mechanics are player driven (like economy) there are some functionality then to be universal. (or at least quality of life as some would say)

Account wide bank should have been available from the get go (especially if you have account bound items)
some of the features are similar STO. While I understand the STO is different game than NWO, both are using similar engine (if not the same) the mechanic may differ in terms of using a ship vs a spell, but the basic are the same.

That is why some people doesn't quite "accept" the idea of NWO being a total "newb" in MMO. The staff are vet of developers. Unless NWO was totally created from brand new team of developers and programmers that never work with STO or other Cryptic/PWE games then I concede my point.

imsmithy · January 2014

panderus wrote: »

We are certainly aware of this issue and are in talks about how to address this for a future update. No information at this time other than we agree this is an issue we want to address in a more elegant method.

This is great news , I have a Blueribbon pig and shadow wolf I would love to upgrade and use but the current prices are prohibitive forcing me to stick to my fire horse thing.

jasonf247 · January 2014

I'd like to see it set up so that bound mounts had their own inventory page like the companions. Then set your riding speed to be the highest of any that you have bound. I'm fine with keeping it character by character, although I also believe that most would just buy the Clydesdale if they don't already have an epic mount, which would make it affectively account wide anyway.

giggliato · January 2014

jasonf247 wrote: »

I'd like to see it set up so that bound mounts had their own inventory page like the companions. Then set your riding speed to be the highest of any that you have bound. I'm fine with keeping it character by character, although I also believe that most would just buy the Clydesdale if they don't already have an epic mount, which would make it affectively account wide anyway.

Yes, pay for account wide sped increases, sounds good. Hey I'd also pay for mount animations too, but not sure what keybinds they would get.

runebane · January 2014

angrysprite wrote: »

I agree - when the statement is used on it's own. But you are taking my statement out of context. Please reread the entire statement so the one you debunk actually makes sense to you. I will say it again:

The high cost of upgrading companions and mounts is to encourage Zen Point sales. However, the current cost is too high and needs to be revisited.

See the second part of the above statement? That's the primary point, though I still stand by the first sentence. Professional tip: Comprehension is your friend.

Now, to properly remain on-topic and contribute further: I believe the cost should be no more that the Zen Point costs difference between the different ranks of each mount. It seems to me the fact that these upgrade are character-bound (one character only) would be incentive enough to keep the motivation for buying new mounts from the Z-Store.

However, there are those special mounts, such as the Winter Event Sled, that people cannot obtain any other way and would seriously consider upgrading if the cost were not so prohibitive.

Oh, I took it in context... still believe you're wrong.

angrysprite wrote: »

The high cost of upgrading companions and mounts is to encourage Zen Point sales. However, the current cost is too high and needs to be revisited.

My argument is mainly with the part of the post I originally quoted. You claim to stand by it. And the argument is unchanged by the second part because it doesn't change the facts at all. Everyone knows the prices are to high... While I may have dwelled on the price, what I was trying to say is that upgrading is not an encouragement to buy zen at any price.

It doesn't matter what the price is, its a terrible system. Buying a mount account-wide and then having to upgrade it on each character makes it terrible. As others have said they'd need to lower the price drastically and that'd still only be a bandaid. Because its just a bad system.

Again I disagree with the whole Idea that the upgrades are an encouragement to buy zen. Having to upgrade something after you bought it doesn't encourage anything. They already get money from people buying Zen to sell for AD as well as mounts. If all the Zen mounts were already T3 it might be an encouragement. But they'd sell more of their Zen shop Tier 2 mounts if upgrading wasn't as it is. So no, its not currently an encouragement to buy Zen if it ever was. Pretty sure they know this by now. My best guess is that the only reason they've left this so long is that they are really hesitant to touch vendor prices. Worried that they'll shift the balance of AD/Zen in the market.

As for fixes... They could make it character based. (Using an upgrade would make all of a character's mounts that speed.) Or account based. (Upgrading a mount type would upgrade that mount for all characters.) Or any number of other solutions. They tend to come up with some pretty neat stuff from time to time. Want to see what they do to fix this.

ulkaur · January 2014

I know I do not want a refining process for mounts. i burn every enchantment i loot on getting my artifacts up, and it is a slow as all get out process. to think of having yet another fun-draining process added to the game is too much. All i did with refining was change my reason for not doing it. the change made to add the up-front materials wasn't needed, and definitely not wanted. Not being able to readily get blue marks means my enchants sit with full refining bars waiting for one to finally drop. I'm not paying 25k ad when i have so many I have to upgrade.

I now have to deal with inventory slots being taken up by bound and unbound versions of the same item. Not wanted!

Please fix mount upgrade costs without making the fix worse than what it was before this time!

valiant4ever · January 2014

panderus wrote: »

We are certainly aware of this issue and are in talks about how to address this for a future update. No information at this time other than we agree this is an issue we want to address in a more elegant method.

Thank you for the update.

badgerpants999 · January 2014

artanisen wrote: »

here is a suggestion,

add the new refinement method onto mounts
sell the mount training items in the zen shop
and add mount refining point tokens at the mount trader.
and add a inventory bag for mounts...
and a collections tab for mounts lol..

Refining system for mounts, No, just No!
Mount training items in Zen store, Yes, at a reasonable price.
Mount refining points, see first item, (NO!)
Inventory Bag for mounts Extra YES!
Collections Tab for mounts, Meh

yuccapalm · January 2014

Mount training: 1 500k ad
Mount training: 2 1mil-1.5 mil AD
problem solved.

chantola21 · January 2014

nope. yucca, you dont realize that is still outrageously expensive?

Mount Training Cost - Time to Revisit

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