mokahMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
You will never see non-combat rewards for the simple reason that PW/Cryptic cannot control the influx for EXP/Loot if that were an option. Combat at least, takes time. They have a timer system in place that manages exp and loot gain already. Earning too much too quickly turns the system on and you get diminishing returns. This is the system they are going to go with since they control it 100%.
Giving the player/builder control over rewards removes their control over the game and by direct result, the game's income. Anything that affects the game income in any negative way is removed or changed to turn it into positive income flow. This is business 101.
The ONLY reason people will play foundry missions is for leveling alts or playing with friends. There is zero incentive for the daily grind mindless MMO crowd to play a foundry mission. Economically, there never will be for PW/Cryptic.
You will never see non-combat rewards for the simple reason that PW/Cryptic cannot control the influx for EXP/Loot if that were an option. Combat at least, takes time. They have a timer system in place that manages exp and loot gain already. Earning too much too quickly turns the system on and you get diminishing returns. This is the system they are going to go with since they control it 100%.
You contradict yourself -- as you say they already have a timer system that manages exp and loot gain. They also have such a system for skill nodes already in game -- during Profession events, if you loot more than 10 skill nodes in (5 minutes? 8 Minutes?) you loot only garbage after that for several minutes.
Simply tie EITHER one of those mechanisms into rewards for objectives, and your done.
You contradict yourself -- as you say they already have a timer system that manages exp and loot gain. They also have such a system for skill nodes already in game -- during Profession events, if you loot more than 10 skill nodes in (5 minutes? 8 Minutes?) you loot only garbage after that for several minutes.
Simply tie EITHER one of those mechanisms into rewards for objectives, and your done.
There is no contradiction. You are just not understanding the realities. The "timer" system is how they ARE managing rewards. It is a controllable system that they are happy with. It doesn't generate more exploits and is already implemented. Any of the suggestions made is this thread, while interesting ideas, are, as you state in your own posts, problematic and "no easy answers".
They already have the easy answer...it's already in game.
There is no contradiction. You are just not understanding the realities. The "timer" system is how they ARE managing rewards. It is a controllable system that they are happy with. It doesn't generate more exploits and is already implemented. Any of the suggestions made is this thread, while interesting ideas, are, as you state in your own posts, problematic and "no easy answers".
They already have the easy answer...it's already in game.
And you seem to be ignoring something pretty basic as well.
Foundry Authors work for free. For Cryptic. We create content. Content that other players will play, and spend time in game doing. We offer variety and new ideas. We provide free entertainment that players may just take advantage of if the tools allowed us to do more.
That free entertainment grows the game without Cryptic having to pay writers, designers, developers, QA people, etc. Aside from the hosting costs, their dev/writing staff has got to be their largest expense. Putting out new modules, etc to keep players interested is costly. Whereas if they made a few relatively minor improvements to the Foundry they could have a wealth of free content to keep their players happy and spending money on alts, upgrades, etc.
It's a value judgment of either investing in UGC tools for long term reward, or paying employees to do the work for incremental short term gains. Each new module is only going to take so long for players to get through, then they'll need another one. UGC grows on its own.
0
mokahMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
And you seem to be ignoring something pretty basic as well.
Foundry Authors work for free. For Cryptic. We create content. Content that other players will play, and spend time in game doing. We offer variety and new ideas. We provide free entertainment that players may just take advantage of if the tools allowed us to do more.
That free entertainment grows the game without Cryptic having to pay writers, designers, developers, QA people, etc. Aside from the hosting costs, their dev/writing staff has got to be their largest expense. Putting out new modules, etc to keep players interested is costly. Whereas if they made a few relatively minor improvements to the Foundry they could have a wealth of free content to keep their players happy and spending money on alts, upgrades, etc.
It's a value judgment of either investing in UGC tools for long term reward, or paying employees to do the work for incremental short term gains. Each new module is only going to take so long for players to get through, then they'll need another one. UGC grows on its own.
I'm pretty sure I'm not the one ignoring the basics here, but you all are welcomed to your opinion. My opinion here is that your time would better be spent pushing for features that are going to happen.
Have you seen this or any type of system done for STO? If, yes, then you might have hope and you should by all means keep asking. If not...then history is a great teacher.
There is no contradiction. You are just not understanding the realities. The "timer" system is how they ARE managing rewards. It is a controllable system that they are happy with. It doesn't generate more exploits and is already implemented. Any of the suggestions made is this thread, while interesting ideas, are, as you state in your own posts, problematic and "no easy answers".
They already have the easy answer...it's already in game.
Exactly what I just said -- it already exists.
How is...
During Profession events, if you loot more than 10 skill nodes in (5 minutes? 8 Minutes?) you loot only garbage after that for several minutes.
...somehow different from...
During Foundry quests, if you loot more than 10 skill nodes in (5 minutes? 8 Minutes?) you loot only garbage after that for several minutes.
To someone who has been programming computers for 30+ years, it sure looks identical to me.
Anyway, we're never going to see nodes in foundry. Even you suggested fix is exploitable, make the walk path x meters, but you just jump down to the next node, or simply not have monsters so the bots have no problems.
An easy solution to prevent exploiting would be to only make the skill nodes appear once per day, if you play the quest again in the same day, the skill nodes won't show up anymore. So you would have to wait for a day (or maybe a few hours, they would have to decide that) for them to spawn again.
▲▲▲
Cryptic has yet to solve botting in their own content. Just look at the Arcane Resevoir botting issues complained about regularly in gen discussion.
The fact is that as soon as you allow nodes, its going to be bot exploited. You dont have to look any farther than the farming quests to see this.
Eldarth has it right, if the contents of the nodes are not worth it when doing too many, the exploiting looses sense.
I would love that idea, I don't care what I get from nodes, to me it's just a small prize for exploration to put in quests
I might as well get 1 gold or a cheap HP pot and I would love it either way.
Agree.
It pains me to run by 1000 crates in a pile and there is nothing worth a copper? Nothing salvageable in the entire 4 mile gauntlet of fury? Not even a corpse to steal a shirt from? Not even empty jars or bent nails?
I do like this idea of a set amount per quest to use however you see fit. Or in the least a budget of loot-able objects the system fills like the adventure zones.
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cptseb1Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited January 2014
Yes I agree with you all,
However, we need to understand Cryptic stand in this matter whereas they may be concern with abuses.
One way to make everyone happy in my opinion would be for Cryptic to develop a series of Foundry unique and Bound to player objects (not found anywhere else). Some objects could even be crafting components.
Apply a random object loot in final chest and all the sudden, foundry will be overwhelmed without ever disrupting Neverwinter per se
So when will a developer read this thread, post "oh you guys all want this and we haven't given it yet, I suppose we can make an update for this since it's almost unanimous"? Because I'm getting irritated at the lack of developer presence in a forum section designed to give them free content.
I agreed with the principle, but maybe not called doubloons? maybe just reward point budget? I dunno, thats a personal thing for me. But the idea of adding loot nodes that can only be done so many times in an hour/day (for example, you run foundry quest A, and loot 5 of the 6 nodes, then the 6th disappears once you reach the cap. Then, you run foundry quest B, and no nodes appear until the full hour/day or whatever has passed.)
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
This system exists at all times, but since there's less incentive to power-farm nodes when it is not professions time, players don't get hit by it outside of the event nearly so often. Frankly, adding that inhibitor has devalued the profession event quite a lot for regular players who just want to collect a bunch of crafting materials, since you can't maximize the half hour, needing to either throttle your speed throughout (or heaven forbid fight things between nodes) or wait out the ten-minute penalty.
doc4gothMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 61
edited February 2014
I like the idea in principle, it might need some tuning however.
Some ideas that popped into mind are;
Add a new refineable currency into the game with a daily limit on refining. Let's call it "foundems" these foundems can be accumulated by running foundry quests. They must then be refined similar to rough astral diamonds and have a daily limit of 50k. The refined foundems can now be used at a merchant called "Gottems" where the player can buy BoP items and potions. Blue level appropriate gear, healing potions, glory potions, identify scrolls, some unique items such as bags that cost an insane amount of refined foundems.
Now with that for a starting system, give authors a budget of foundems to place in the foundry as rewards for non combat objectives. Also instead of having mobs drop items which can then be sold at the merchant for money, have mobs drop foundems upon death.
We now would have an incentive for players to play foundrys, a tool for authors to reward non combat objectives and a non exploitable form of loot.
From the programming side this would be relatively easy to implement as all necessary code is already in game.
The code for diminishing returns on looting nodes and killing mobs? Check got that.
The code for special currencies? Check got it.
The code for BoP items? Check
The code for refining? Check
Loot table? Check
Code for level appropriate items? Check got that to. See Gloomwrought, Thayan, Darkforest etc boxes
Yes there would still be some work involved for the Devs, however it would be a manageable amount.
Why should Devs and Cryptic be interested in doing this?
1. For the same reason bars provide free peanuts and salty snacks. The more a person eats the more they tend to drink. Same thing here, the more a player plays the higher the chance he will have to have that 110% speed mount for his alt (speed is still addictive, even in MMOs), the 24 slot bag for his toon or the purple companion from the Zen store.
2. Player loyalty and continuing play. The foundry is the most powerful tool that could be included in a MMO. Allow the playerbase to create your content for you and simply co-opt it into game. (See the post-script for an additional idea relating to this.) Expanding the content available to players will keep players coming back for more
3. Using the plays and reviews system the Devs would have a means to determine if a foundry has the right stuff to become a permanent part of the game. Once a foundry reaches a certain level of plays/reviews it could then be reviewed by a content team for inclusion into the game as a persistent portion. Reviewing a foundry to determine if it is acceptable to the devs and company takes a LOT less time than creating the content.
That is my idea for improvements.
P.S. One of the major drawbacks to this game is the nodal map system. Baiscally everything revolves around Protector's enclave. A possible solution to this would be a travellable world map with multiple hubs. See the travel map when doing the Phantasmal Fortress in dread ring. How about a map of Faerun that has nodal cities where content can be based from. See also the map in the character creation screens where you select you origin. For that matter throw in random encounters when travelling from one hub to another.
And for Eldarth my thanks for the various posts and guides you have created to help other authors.
I like the concept of this idea, why not make the foundry quest similar to the DR or Shardeth campaigns? Make it a lot more required but stuff that is only good for that area. This is how I see the idea being implemented.
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0
psyb3rtr011Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 340Arc User
edited March 2014
Reading through all these, I had an epiphany....
Foundry Boons!?!?!?!?!?!
You only get credit for those Foundry Missions that are first time through with that character, and have already been selected as eligible for Dailies. If you repeat one, no credit earned towards a Boon.
The First Boon is available after completing 5 Foundry Missions. The Second after 15, third after 30, fourth after 50, etc (Advancement is +5, +10, +15, +20, +25, +30, etc...
One of the things the Boons could be, to make up for the lack of Skill Nodes and Treasure Chests in Foundry Missions, is something similar to the Tymora's Enchantment, only a 2% chance to drop a specific Crafting Node or Treasure.
For example:
1st Boon = You have a 1% likelihood of having a Skill Nodes drop for your Class. (GF = Dungeoneering, CW = Arcane, DC = Religion, TR = Thieving, HR = Nature)
2nd Boon = You choose another Node Type that is possible to drop, with a separate 1% chance.
3rd Boon = Choose another Node Type
4th Boon = Choose another Node Type
5th Boon = Choose another Node Type
6th Boon = Treasure Chests/Bags drop 1% of the time.
Best of all, these could be scripted for ONLY Foundry Missions, like many things are ONLY PVE or PVP.
why should devs and cryptic be interested in doing this?
1. For the same reason bars provide free peanuts and salty snacks. The more a person eats the more they tend to drink. Same thing here, the more a player plays the higher the chance he will have to have that 110% speed mount for his alt (speed is still addictive, even in mmos), the 24 slot bag for his toon or the purple companion from the zen store.
2. Player loyalty and continuing play. The foundry is the most powerful tool that could be included in a mmo. Allow the playerbase to create your content for you and simply co-opt it into game. (see the post-script for an additional idea relating to this.) expanding the content available to players will keep players coming back for more
3. Using the plays and reviews system the devs would have a means to determine if a foundry has the right stuff to become a permanent part of the game. Once a foundry reaches a certain level of plays/reviews it could then be reviewed by a content team for inclusion into the game as a persistent portion. Reviewing a foundry to determine if it is acceptable to the devs and company takes a lot less time than creating the content.
Comments
Giving the player/builder control over rewards removes their control over the game and by direct result, the game's income. Anything that affects the game income in any negative way is removed or changed to turn it into positive income flow. This is business 101.
The ONLY reason people will play foundry missions is for leveling alts or playing with friends. There is zero incentive for the daily grind mindless MMO crowd to play a foundry mission. Economically, there never will be for PW/Cryptic.
You contradict yourself -- as you say they already have a timer system that manages exp and loot gain. They also have such a system for skill nodes already in game -- during Profession events, if you loot more than 10 skill nodes in (5 minutes? 8 Minutes?) you loot only garbage after that for several minutes.
Simply tie EITHER one of those mechanisms into rewards for objectives, and your done.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
There is no contradiction. You are just not understanding the realities. The "timer" system is how they ARE managing rewards. It is a controllable system that they are happy with. It doesn't generate more exploits and is already implemented. Any of the suggestions made is this thread, while interesting ideas, are, as you state in your own posts, problematic and "no easy answers".
They already have the easy answer...it's already in game.
And you seem to be ignoring something pretty basic as well.
Foundry Authors work for free. For Cryptic. We create content. Content that other players will play, and spend time in game doing. We offer variety and new ideas. We provide free entertainment that players may just take advantage of if the tools allowed us to do more.
That free entertainment grows the game without Cryptic having to pay writers, designers, developers, QA people, etc. Aside from the hosting costs, their dev/writing staff has got to be their largest expense. Putting out new modules, etc to keep players interested is costly. Whereas if they made a few relatively minor improvements to the Foundry they could have a wealth of free content to keep their players happy and spending money on alts, upgrades, etc.
It's a value judgment of either investing in UGC tools for long term reward, or paying employees to do the work for incremental short term gains. Each new module is only going to take so long for players to get through, then they'll need another one. UGC grows on its own.
I'm pretty sure I'm not the one ignoring the basics here, but you all are welcomed to your opinion. My opinion here is that your time would better be spent pushing for features that are going to happen.
Have you seen this or any type of system done for STO? If, yes, then you might have hope and you should by all means keep asking. If not...then history is a great teacher.
Exactly what I just said -- it already exists.
How is...
...somehow different from...
To someone who has been programming computers for 30+ years, it sure looks identical to me.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
One is a time limited event, one is not.
Anyway, we're never going to see nodes in foundry. Even you suggested fix is exploitable, make the walk path x meters, but you just jump down to the next node, or simply not have monsters so the bots have no problems.
"Node-arama 1"... Node-arama 2... repeat as many times as necessary.
Let's just expand that summary a little bit...
Rate Limitation: 8 non-junk skill nodes within 5 minutes (whatever the actual current limited rate is now)
Foundry Quest: Node-arama-1
11:10:15
4 craft items, 1 enchant
11:10:20
4 craft items
11:10:25
3 craft items, 2 enchant
11:10:30
5 craft items
11:10:35
2 craft items, 1 enchant
11:10:40
1 craft items, 2 enchant
11:10:45
4 craft items, 1 enchant
11:10:50
4 craft items
11:10:55
junk
11:11:00
junk
Foundry quest: Node-arama-2
11:11:30
junk
11:11:40
junk
11:11:50
junk
...
junk
11:15:10
junk
11:15:20
2 craft items, 1 enchant
So, why should "being inside a foundry" require a different rate limitation than is already present in every zone?
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Cryptic has yet to solve botting in their own content. Just look at the Arcane Resevoir botting issues complained about regularly in gen discussion.
The fact is that as soon as you allow nodes, its going to be bot exploited. You dont have to look any farther than the farming quests to see this.
I would love that idea, I don't care what I get from nodes, to me it's just a small prize for exploration to put in quests
I might as well get 1 gold or a cheap HP pot and I would love it either way.
It pains me to run by 1000 crates in a pile and there is nothing worth a copper? Nothing salvageable in the entire 4 mile gauntlet of fury? Not even a corpse to steal a shirt from? Not even empty jars or bent nails?
I do like this idea of a set amount per quest to use however you see fit. Or in the least a budget of loot-able objects the system fills like the adventure zones.
However, we need to understand Cryptic stand in this matter whereas they may be concern with abuses.
One way to make everyone happy in my opinion would be for Cryptic to develop a series of Foundry unique and Bound to player objects (not found anywhere else). Some objects could even be crafting components.
Apply a random object loot in final chest and all the sudden, foundry will be overwhelmed without ever disrupting Neverwinter per se
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A Comprehensive Review of Neverwinter <-- Read it!
This system exists at all times, but since there's less incentive to power-farm nodes when it is not professions time, players don't get hit by it outside of the event nearly so often. Frankly, adding that inhibitor has devalued the profession event quite a lot for regular players who just want to collect a bunch of crafting materials, since you can't maximize the half hour, needing to either throttle your speed throughout (or heaven forbid fight things between nodes) or wait out the ten-minute penalty.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Some ideas that popped into mind are;
Add a new refineable currency into the game with a daily limit on refining. Let's call it "foundems"
Now with that for a starting system, give authors a budget of foundems to place in the foundry as rewards for non combat objectives. Also instead of having mobs drop items which can then be sold at the merchant for money, have mobs drop foundems upon death.
We now would have an incentive for players to play foundrys, a tool for authors to reward non combat objectives and a non exploitable form of loot.
From the programming side this would be relatively easy to implement as all necessary code is already in game.
The code for diminishing returns on looting nodes and killing mobs? Check got that.
The code for special currencies? Check got it.
The code for BoP items? Check
The code for refining? Check
Loot table? Check
Code for level appropriate items? Check got that to. See Gloomwrought, Thayan, Darkforest etc boxes
Yes there would still be some work involved for the Devs, however it would be a manageable amount.
Why should Devs and Cryptic be interested in doing this?
1. For the same reason bars provide free peanuts and salty snacks. The more a person eats the more they tend to drink. Same thing here, the more a player plays the higher the chance he will have to have that 110% speed mount for his alt (speed is still addictive, even in MMOs), the 24 slot bag for his toon or the purple companion from the Zen store.
2. Player loyalty and continuing play. The foundry is the most powerful tool that could be included in a MMO. Allow the playerbase to create your content for you and simply co-opt it into game. (See the post-script for an additional idea relating to this.) Expanding the content available to players will keep players coming back for more
3. Using the plays and reviews system the Devs would have a means to determine if a foundry has the right stuff to become a permanent part of the game. Once a foundry reaches a certain level of plays/reviews it could then be reviewed by a content team for inclusion into the game as a persistent portion. Reviewing a foundry to determine if it is acceptable to the devs and company takes a LOT less time than creating the content.
That is my idea for improvements.
P.S. One of the major drawbacks to this game is the nodal map system. Baiscally everything revolves around Protector's enclave. A possible solution to this would be a travellable world map with multiple hubs. See the travel map when doing the Phantasmal Fortress in dread ring. How about a map of Faerun that has nodal cities where content can be based from. See also the map in the character creation screens where you select you origin. For that matter throw in random encounters when travelling from one hub to another.
And for Eldarth my thanks for the various posts and guides you have created to help other authors.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Click banner for the Dragon Dogs Family guild page.
Foundry Boons!?!?!?!?!?!
You only get credit for those Foundry Missions that are first time through with that character, and have already been selected as eligible for Dailies. If you repeat one, no credit earned towards a Boon.
The First Boon is available after completing 5 Foundry Missions. The Second after 15, third after 30, fourth after 50, etc (Advancement is +5, +10, +15, +20, +25, +30, etc...
One of the things the Boons could be, to make up for the lack of Skill Nodes and Treasure Chests in Foundry Missions, is something similar to the Tymora's Enchantment, only a 2% chance to drop a specific Crafting Node or Treasure.
For example:
1st Boon = You have a 1% likelihood of having a Skill Nodes drop for your Class. (GF = Dungeoneering, CW = Arcane, DC = Religion, TR = Thieving, HR = Nature)
2nd Boon = You choose another Node Type that is possible to drop, with a separate 1% chance.
3rd Boon = Choose another Node Type
4th Boon = Choose another Node Type
5th Boon = Choose another Node Type
6th Boon = Treasure Chests/Bags drop 1% of the time.
Best of all, these could be scripted for ONLY Foundry Missions, like many things are ONLY PVE or PVP.
Just an idea...
Critique away.
AKA Cyber Troll and Euben Hadd
Cryptic , read this!^^^