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PvP Sentinel GWF feedback - overpowered
kaylos29
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
I am a Sentinel GWF, it has been my main for a long time. I have excellent gear. Not the best, but not far off either. This is my personal opinion, you are welcome to disagree, but please no flaming.
GWF is overpowered in pvp atm. I don't really pve, so I won't talk about that too much. The combination of burst damage + survival is very high. I feel GWFs needed some love because all they were was tanky and cancelled out in top level premades pretty easily. A combination of things gave them more than just a little bite though.
Module 2 brought a bunch of things;
1. IV paragon path, which created some crazy synergy with GWF base abilities. Trample the Fallen+mark+feat powerful challenge = Approximately a 40% boost to burst damage.
2. Minor boosts to AoE damage.
3. A ton of added regen from artifacts and boons.
4. A huge change to the feat Deep Gash. The deep gash damage is ratio'd to the power damage that procs it in addition to being affected by other modifiers, but scales linearly with power (ie going form 2K power to 3K power = 50% damage boost to deep gash dot).
Example to make the issue clearer -
Module 1 - IBS crits for 10K.
Module 2 - IBS crits for 14K + 5 ticks of 1200 damage from Deep Gash for 20K total.
In pvp, 1 and 4 are the primary culprits. 2 affects mostly pve and 3 affected all classes to a degree allowing them more gear flexibility. For 3, burst builds got more survivable and survival builds gained damage.
The main issues I see in PvP are these though coming from 1 and 4.
1. Animation cancelling Threatening Rush. Not only did GWFs gain a gap closer, but one that can crit for over 3K, close to 4K with a perfect vorpal. The real issue is the animation cancelling. I now have an ability that can crit for over 3K and I can do it rapidly fast. Good luck getting away and the single target DPS is very high.
2. Threatening rush allows GWFs to mark at will. Combine with animation cancelling, and a GWF can pretty much guaruntee that the mark will be up when they go through their burst cycle. Combine with the powerful challenge feat, and the burst damage a GWF is going to put out is 23% higher than before. Throw in Trample the Fallen, and you are up to at least a 38% damage boost (not sure if additive or multiplicative). The powerful challenge feat basically allows Sentinel GWFs to do as much or more burst damage in pvp than the DPS trees do.
3. Deep Gash damage is immense now, especially if you invest a little in power (not a lot, just a little). After testing on the preveiw server with a perfect vorpal and 3K power, a 15K IBS adds almost 8-9K damage. Even on live with a greater vorpal and 2600 power, I see a 15K IBS adds about 6000 damage. On preveiw, I could get near 20K IBS with the stars aligning and deep gash ticks for around 2100-2200.
The first tick is immediate, so it adds almost 10%+ damage to the base attack. If my opponent gets away, he can expect to eat another 5K damage or more.
Immediate solution:
1. Fix animation cancelling of Threatening Rush ala the way weapon master was nerfed. You can still animation cancel weapon master to sprint, but it won't restart the attack animation until the previous one would have ended. Animation cancelling weapon amster usually costs you damage because of packet delays. The same thing should be done to Threatening Rush. That would make GWFs a little more kiteable and lower Threatening Rush's single target DPS to below that of Sure Strike. It would still hit hard and probably still be preferrable because of kiting in pvp, but not as abusable.
2. Change the feat powerful challenge form 15% more damage to marked foes to 25-50% more threat to marked foes. This would be a tanking boost to tank GWFs, but pretty much eliminates the 15% damage boost in pvp. It would still leave trample the fallen and the 8% damage boost base from mark.
3. Eliminate the power multiplication of Deep Gash's damage. Make it a flat amount based on power and modified by everything else other than damage power. This would stop large burst attacks from adding another 20-60% of their damage in DoT ticks.
This would still leave it powerful for PvE power stackers since any other crit overwrites the larger ones now anyways, but limits the crazy damage it can add right now in PvP. Instigator and Destroyer builds should be compensated for some of the lost DPS later in their trees, where Sentinels cannot get to it.
I don't feel these nerfs would be too much, but they might not be enough. I feel it would be a fair start.
GWF is overpowered in pvp atm. I don't really pve, so I won't talk about that too much. The combination of burst damage + survival is very high. I feel GWFs needed some love because all they were was tanky and cancelled out in top level premades pretty easily. A combination of things gave them more than just a little bite though.
Module 2 brought a bunch of things;
1. IV paragon path, which created some crazy synergy with GWF base abilities. Trample the Fallen+mark+feat powerful challenge = Approximately a 40% boost to burst damage.
2. Minor boosts to AoE damage.
3. A ton of added regen from artifacts and boons.
4. A huge change to the feat Deep Gash. The deep gash damage is ratio'd to the power damage that procs it in addition to being affected by other modifiers, but scales linearly with power (ie going form 2K power to 3K power = 50% damage boost to deep gash dot).
Example to make the issue clearer -
Module 1 - IBS crits for 10K.
Module 2 - IBS crits for 14K + 5 ticks of 1200 damage from Deep Gash for 20K total.
In pvp, 1 and 4 are the primary culprits. 2 affects mostly pve and 3 affected all classes to a degree allowing them more gear flexibility. For 3, burst builds got more survivable and survival builds gained damage.
The main issues I see in PvP are these though coming from 1 and 4.
1. Animation cancelling Threatening Rush. Not only did GWFs gain a gap closer, but one that can crit for over 3K, close to 4K with a perfect vorpal. The real issue is the animation cancelling. I now have an ability that can crit for over 3K and I can do it rapidly fast. Good luck getting away and the single target DPS is very high.
2. Threatening rush allows GWFs to mark at will. Combine with animation cancelling, and a GWF can pretty much guaruntee that the mark will be up when they go through their burst cycle. Combine with the powerful challenge feat, and the burst damage a GWF is going to put out is 23% higher than before. Throw in Trample the Fallen, and you are up to at least a 38% damage boost (not sure if additive or multiplicative). The powerful challenge feat basically allows Sentinel GWFs to do as much or more burst damage in pvp than the DPS trees do.
3. Deep Gash damage is immense now, especially if you invest a little in power (not a lot, just a little). After testing on the preveiw server with a perfect vorpal and 3K power, a 15K IBS adds almost 8-9K damage. Even on live with a greater vorpal and 2600 power, I see a 15K IBS adds about 6000 damage. On preveiw, I could get near 20K IBS with the stars aligning and deep gash ticks for around 2100-2200.
The first tick is immediate, so it adds almost 10%+ damage to the base attack. If my opponent gets away, he can expect to eat another 5K damage or more.
Immediate solution:
1. Fix animation cancelling of Threatening Rush ala the way weapon master was nerfed. You can still animation cancel weapon master to sprint, but it won't restart the attack animation until the previous one would have ended. Animation cancelling weapon amster usually costs you damage because of packet delays. The same thing should be done to Threatening Rush. That would make GWFs a little more kiteable and lower Threatening Rush's single target DPS to below that of Sure Strike. It would still hit hard and probably still be preferrable because of kiting in pvp, but not as abusable.
2. Change the feat powerful challenge form 15% more damage to marked foes to 25-50% more threat to marked foes. This would be a tanking boost to tank GWFs, but pretty much eliminates the 15% damage boost in pvp. It would still leave trample the fallen and the 8% damage boost base from mark.
3. Eliminate the power multiplication of Deep Gash's damage. Make it a flat amount based on power and modified by everything else other than damage power. This would stop large burst attacks from adding another 20-60% of their damage in DoT ticks.
This would still leave it powerful for PvE power stackers since any other crit overwrites the larger ones now anyways, but limits the crazy damage it can add right now in PvP. Instigator and Destroyer builds should be compensated for some of the lost DPS later in their trees, where Sentinels cannot get to it.
I don't feel these nerfs would be too much, but they might not be enough. I feel it would be a fair start.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Post edited by kaylos29 on
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Comments
just No. i use it as destroyer so why should it be changed to threat?
ur suggestions wouldnt just nerf sent they would nerf destro aswell
A Sentinel can have both. Destroyers and Instigators need boosts deeper in the trees where Sentinels cannot get to them. Same goes for Deep Gash, which adds tons of DPS. The damage you gain from that needs to be moved farther into the trees. Personally I think the focused destroyer feat needs to be changed to 100% stack from any attack, especially since you have to give up other really good class features for it.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Sentinels aren't giving up anything to match your destroyer in PvP damage.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
And your suggestions would screw every other build for pve... You complain about deep gash.. If this was nerfed for pve then GWF comes useless again.. So thank you for suggestions to wreck my GWF again
Nerfs really aren't needed, you can still take out a gwf if you have similar gear. You won't take out a gwf if they out gear you, and that's the same with any class.
And there is plenty of complaining about Sentinel damage in pvp. Sentinel pretty much matches or exceeds Destroyer/Instigator damage in pvp, because only they can have SotS, Deep Gash, and Powerful Challenge. I may be mistaken, but no DPS Destroyer PvE build should have Powerful Challenge in it when SotS adds 15% more damage to the whole party and not just the GWF. Instigators cannot have Powerful Challenge and Deep Gash.
Sentinels are tanky, but before module 2, really low on damage unless you had Greater Tenebrous, which was nerfed. Now Sentinels are just as tanky and do DPS build like damage. There are a few sentinels that may still fully gear for tankiness, but even they do a ton more damage and with the right spread of stats, a sentinel can be nearly as tanky, but also blow up any class, including other tanky classes thanks to con providing a bunch of resist ignore in addition to the arpen stat.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I didn't propose any nerfs to GWF survival, just the damage sentinels can do combined with their survival.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Right but as the poster previous to me mentioned your nerfs, nerf more than just sentinel (which doesn't have that high of dps comparativly), and don't address them being hard to kill.
So your nerf fails, his nerf fails. Why because the buffs given in module 2 were given for a reason.
In return they get what? A little more damage to wicked strike and 12% more damage if not hit for instigators? A slightly harder IBS and 10% more encounter damage while unstoppable for destroyers? The pickings are slim.
Instigator and Destroyer both need major buffs to the later trees, which I didn't address in my post because that is a separate issue that I will admit I am not experienced enough to judge. I am experienced enough to judge the effect of animation cancelling on threatening rush, deep gash, and powerful challenge has on sentinels in pvp however. The results aren't pretty. It can be fun being near unkillable while putting out some of the best burst damage possible, but it isn't really fair to everyone else that pvps as well.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
The PvE vs PvP argument is an old one, but it isn't going away anytime soon with the next module supposedly being focused on pvp. In that light, PvP balance is important as well as PvE balance.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I'd say a bigger problem than any sent is the fact that tr's can stealth and hit 30k+ crits with p.vorpals.
On the other hand, I do not understand any moral crisis regarding damage gwf. we were well below what we should be. cw one dominates pve since the beta, what's the problem 5 or 6 sentinels cause trouble in pvp? Why the urgency of a nerf about it with all other outstanding issues? is pleased to play with a useless class?
ps: most people who complain of sentinel pvp also say that the match lasts 45 minutes. is a **** hard pvp 45 minutes, so this mode is extremely balanced.
Module 1 - IBS crits for 10K.
Module 2 - IBS crits for 14K + 5 ticks of 1200 damage from Deep Gash is full 20K"
Now I wonder: our greatest encounter taking 10k damage seem fair? Our biggest encounter damage in taking 20k (may have stopped the damage) seems op?
We are so amazed at the deep gash forget this: the Damages of class are LOW. we only have 2 encounters with reasonable damage. one is of iv.
one thing is to debate civilly, another thing is to give the listener cry of other players from other forums that do not understand the mechanics of gwf.
It isn't an immediately pressing considering there are more problems than just GWFs. The immeidate fixes would be like you say to change powerful challenge, though I think it needs a threat buff. The animation cancelling of TR needs to be fixed as well. Obviously not much can done about Deep Gash unless they are willing to buff Instigator and Destroyer quite a bit in the damage department.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Sentinel's are not "Overpowered", the PvP system is the flaw. Which I believe, and hope, will be evolved quite a bit with the upcoming Feb/March update to it.
There have been plenty of threads/advice on how a person can go about defeating them. However if a random PUG, who only PvPs a few times a day for Rough AD, goes in expecting to be able to take down a Sentinel... Just isn't gonna happen.
Thus your proposed 'nerfs' are unwarranted.
I am going by my experience in PvP. It isn't just one encounter. Pile on a full rotation of Takedown+FLS+IBS. A pretty common rotation now. FLS does about 80-85% of the damage of IBS, so it hits like a truck as well and can hit 3 people. Start with a takedown and FLS can also get the 15% from trample the fallen. The example was simply one to show how deep gash multiplies burst damage in PvP. You can throw in a Indom Str or Savage Advance (which the second attack on my SA can crit for upwards of 19K with a greater vorpal) periodically, and it is pretty much a guarunteed kill. My GF, who is almost entirely PvP damage geared and specced, unlike my sentinel, can't even come close to matching that burst damage in pvp. And he doesn't have nearly the survivability.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I say based on my damage in beta: the deep gash in general, is "the same as the slam did" (obviously the quality of the deep is better). except that:
1 - takes into account the dot resistance, etc..
2-Have not slow effect.
and even to return the power to the daily today, would be bad for the game now has a policy of making the slowest Dailys building. how the feet work is VERY strange, but if you put in the "tip of the pencil" is simply a "methodical buff" for the class.
I PMvsPM all the time. I play with people that PMvsPM more than I do. We generally agree, and they think Sentinel GWFs need more nerfs than I do. GWFs were easily cancelled out before. They aren't now. They needed some damage buffs, but some of it went a little to far.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
this will not solve the problem in no pvp, will worsen the sentinel for pve, but ... since it solves problems in pvp, other boosts could come to the class as a whole. is what I think.
Either way, all the 'hate' for Sentinel's on the forums can summarized by this...
<meme removed per RoC>
However, I will readily admit you have been quite civil in the discussion thus far, so you have my thanks for that! :cool:
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
thanks for your civility as well.
A good GF is very good at controlling a GWF off the point. Since most GWFs don't run Tenebrous anymore, that is a pretty big boost to their ability to block them. However, unless running a full tanky build abusing the immunity from swordmaster, GFs are at an extreme risk of being blown up in a fight with a GWF now. I have nearly 40% resist ignore, so if I catch them with block down, it could be a trip to nap time for them pretty quickly. That was never the case before.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
PvP, currently, is a Rock/Paper/Scissors situation (with more variants of course), and people need to realize that you need to use strategy to defeat their opponents. Sentinel GWFs can be defeated/neutralized, how has been explained ad nauseam in the past few weeks...
'Nerfs' are not the answer. Expanded PvP, players learning strategy and not simply rage quitting because they don't use said strategy/tactics is also necessary, etc.
The devs will do as the devs decide. I sincerely hope they use their own data, instead of the 'general population's inaccurate opinion'...
<meme removed per RoC>
Steam's GWF with 2600 power:
3470-4102 FLS
4165-4923 IBS
2313-2735 takedown
A somewhat tanky CW (but still a squishy class) with 3440 power:
2737-3220 shard
2245-2615 entanging force
3592-4185 ray of enfeeblement
1540-1784 IR
A high HP, regen, recovery TR with 1896 power:
2281-2714 IS
0 damage ITC
526-626 shadow strike
if I had lashing blade in, it would be 4212-5010
My input: Fix deep gash, it's obviously broken. I have a bug report going for this. Fix animation cancelling PERIOD! Why? Because I can do the last hit of sure strike 7 times, because I've done 28 threatening rushes for damage in under 5 seconds, because I can still use 2 dailies on GWF at the same time... Also takedown hits when an opponent is far away, if timed correctly can eat a TRs ITC timer without them using it, and can knock a TR out of the third hit of duelist flurry (early in the animation) when they are supposed to be immune. Also takedown doesn't have to have a target to be used, so let's take a TR that stealths and dodge rolls, the GWF can sprint in that direction, use takedown in the general area, and still hit the TR.
Let's look at the damage output of a current sentinel:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?526271-Steamroller-Sentinel-Berzerker-GWF-PvP-Guide-(Updated-For-Mod-2)
Record Battle Strike Crit : 18K+
Record Frontline Crit : 14k+
Takedown Crit : 7k+
Indomitable Strength (daily) Crit : 16k+
Now steam has changed his build since he posted this thread and I doubt it's updated. It does not include damage from deep gash in these encounters, and more than likely these were all numbers from BEFORE he switched to trample of the fallen. I routinely see him hitting for 14k+ FLS and 16k+ IBS, every match, without others debuffing. Now he has a 40% chance to crit. Here's the thing you guys always like to forget, sentinel is the tank class. A TR that's built for hp, recovery, regen, etc as is the current meta won't even be using the lashing blade you use as an example, they will use ITC, shadow strike, and IS. So they have IS which will hit for 8-11k (and will not hit a sentinel for that but another class.) So now we have a tanky GWF hitting for in all likelihood 16.5-37k with his encounters, and a TR hitting for 14.5-37k with his 3 encounters. Not to mention that the recharge time for IS is just for 1 charge, so over time his damage would be a lot lower than this. Why do you guys want your tanky class to do more damage than the current meta TRs, how does that make sense?
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Marks by themselves increase damage by 8%. Powerful Challenge replaces this 8% with 15%. IBS "Kill" mark is broken and even with Powerful Challenge feated, still only receives 8% dmg buff instead of 15%.
Just for the record.
GWFs are already the easiest class in the game to play. At least require some skill other than facerolling.
at work cant test
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
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