Tried everything to get his power, but I can only say That the concept Should think again, is wrong with entertained by the word, spending a lot on potions, and I find no use for encounter in pve. They should also give you a speed bonus to keep distance from enemies, which is very logic,
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yogokouMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Disheartening Strike damage tooltip took a ~600 damage reduction for me (5500 from 6100) and each tick seemed to damage for 100 less damage, as per the tooltip suggests. After the last patch.
Hint the Whisperknife tries to stay at range, you are not going to willingly run up to the Iron Vanguard to be knocked prone; you are going to hang back and use Disheartening/Cloud of Steel/Impact Shot and Shadow Strike and the ranged portion of Vengeance's Pursuit, (to get away from the Vanguard by tagging someone else with the Ranged power at the start of the fight..) plus of course dodging.
If I screw up and they close and I get knocked prone, well I deserve what I get..
As to damage with Disheartening and a Sab spec (I'm trying to optimize for Disheartening not Flurry here) with Shadowalkers and rank 5s I get 900-1k per attack and 1500-2k crits with no steath/ca for 9 total attacks from 3 clicks of Disheartening. That goes up to 1-1,2k per attack with 2-2.5k crits also for 9 attacks from 3 clicks with stealth.
I need to break down my Flurry data yet to understand that better, but the numbers seem pretty similar.
All that said I now have to report some bugs.
Bug: Disheartening Strike Bleed
If the first dot of bleed for Disheartening Strike Crits all subsequent dots crit for the same amount of damage. Which while doing great things for DPS seems very incorrect.
Bug: Vengeance's Pursuit "Dazed"
When cycling this power quickly (ie essentially double tapping) sometimes I get the message "Cannot activate while dazed" this also happens sometimes after the second attack if you try to trigger another power too quickly after wards. This is the opposite of escaping CC...
Bug: Vengeance's Pursuit "Cooldown Timer"
When you activate the second part of this power there is no countdown for the cooldown timer.
Thanks for the reply. I am getting similar numbers. nowhere near the 4k that the video shows.
Have you gone up against a Vanguard yet on the test server? I did before the latest patch and using only the at range powers/wills couldn't do enough damage. Keep in mind that while you will start at range they will use the gap closer and time it to hit you without stealth. You are going to have to use duelist flurry on them especially the new GWF. Also as a side effect, if you are staying completely at range with lower dps, the gf/gwf can hold on to the point longer. With this new method you can't even contest the point as you will be in too close.
Against tanks that don't understand gap closers/ prones you will do great with the powers. However trying that against someone who knows how to time their encounters and you will not be able to do enough damage. This is with perfect weapon enchantments. For those of us not in perfects it will be harder.
Also what are your thoughts on the utility of the encounter? The only thing I can see it being good for is a)gap closer b) if you are being cc'ed by a wizard. I don't see it help in any way for avoiding prones. Interested to see if anyone else has found success with it. I could be doing it wrong.
Disheartening Strike damage tooltip took a ~600 damage reduction for me (5500 from 6100) and each tick seemed to damage for 100 less damage, as per the tooltip suggests. After the last patch.
vteasy I don't do PvP other than GG; its just not something I'm interested in doing. I haven't tinkered too much with the Whisperknife on preview (been focussed on the Ranger) and tbh I'm not that skilled a gamer (good casual player might best describe my skills) so being able to best exploit skills is not my paradigm. I can recognise the potential, but fulfilling that is not within my skill mostly, hell I cannot get ITC to work worth a dam, no hope of maximising a more complicated skill.
Btw what video?
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I do mostly pvp. This new paragon sounds great with alot of potential but when you use it in practice. Especially against the better players it seems inferior. This isn't to say it won't work but I've tried the obvious builds with it and not getting good results. I am very interested to hear other builds with it that people like. It seems like the skills that would help it are the ones taken away. For instance, they added a stun to the encounter. Sounds good right, however it is a 1 sec stun and in pvp it doesn't seem to do much as you have a delay yourself after using it. Again the most potential would lie in the at will. However in practice it doesn't do enough damage to justify using it over duelist/cos combo. Maybe it could stack to 5 or so. Or another idea would be for it to have additional power if you hit your marked target. Maybe more damage, stun, etc.
I do mostly pvp. This new paragon sounds great with alot of potential but when you use it in practice. Especially against the better players it seems inferior. This isn't to say it won't work but I've tried the obvious builds with it and not getting good results. I am very interested to hear other builds with it that people like. It seems like the skills that would help it are the ones taken away. For instance, they added a stun to the encounter. Sounds good right, however it is a 1 sec stun and in pvp it doesn't seem to do much as you have a delay yourself after using it. Again the most potential would lie in the at will. However in practice it doesn't do enough damage to justify using it over duelist/cos combo. Maybe it could stack to 5 or so. Or another idea would be for it to have additional power if you hit your marked target. Maybe more damage, stun, etc.
That TR mite have been decked out in the best artifacts companion active buffs and both campaign boons Check this vid out i dont know it it brings any relevance but its interesting.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jxuOU3pgE4
Gang Busters PvP Guild Recruiting When Mod 6 goes live Pm Me for more Info If you have any Paladin question Message Me and i will get back to you ASAP
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yeah as with all marketing videos I would assume the best possible gear and probably multiple takes to get the result that looks the best for the promotion.
My 2k crits with Rank 5s and no Artifact or Boons gives me confidence that much higher values can be obtained with the best gear.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I do mostly pvp. This new paragon sounds great with alot of potential but when you use it in practice. Especially against the better players it seems inferior. This isn't to say it won't work but I've tried the obvious builds with it and not getting good results. I am very interested to hear other builds with it that people like. It seems like the skills that would help it are the ones taken away. For instance, they added a stun to the encounter. Sounds good right, however it is a 1 sec stun and in pvp it doesn't seem to do much as you have a delay yourself after using it. Again the most potential would lie in the at will. However in practice it doesn't do enough damage to justify using it over duelist/cos combo. Maybe it could stack to 5 or so. Or another idea would be for it to have additional power if you hit your marked target. Maybe more damage, stun, etc.
Don't forget that such videos are done in a way that most likely, the one controlling the character has access to command strings allowing them the best of what-ever they decide to put on that characters. Advertisement game-play is normally done by a member of the dev/combat team in the MMORPG world, and those people can easily just add command line to put anything they want on their character.
Along a different line, WK has right now effectively two different ways to optimize, as far as I see.
WK path 1: Full Skulkers, recovery gear and Stealth recycling, which with HK daily is easier than before with LA daily, at least in my experience thus far.
WK path 2: Full Fey, a ton of Tenebrous+HP enchants, as well as DoT proccing Weapon, and Armour Enchants + DoT/DD Proccing Boons.
WK path option 3: The prior two could be mixed, but would likely prove far less effective than just as they stand.
In the end, I have found that WK Path 2, does far more damage, and seems more likely to garner Critical hits, but you will have to be darting in and out of range far more often.
Prior test dummy post was wearing Skulk and not using some other stuff, this one is in full Fey, with additions, you'll see the difference easily:
From visible stance: Critical
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 1817 (1731) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 1817 (1731) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 1817 (1731) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 1817 (1731) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 1817 (1731) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 255 (243) Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1277 (1216) Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 1817 (1731) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1216 Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 243 Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1216 Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1216 Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1216 Poison to Target Dummy.
From hidden stance non-critical:
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1123 (1069) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1123 (1069) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1123 (1069) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1537 (1464) Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1123 (1069) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1123 (1069) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 255 (243) Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1537 (1464) Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 255 (243) Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1123 (1069) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1464 Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1464 Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 2049 (1464) Poison to Target Dummy.
From hidden position Critical:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2055 (1957) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 255 (243) Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2055 (1957) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2055 (1957) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1537 (1464) Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2055 (1957) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2055 (1957) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1537 (1464) Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 255 (243) Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2055 (1957) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1464 Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1464 Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1464 Poison to Target Dummy.
__________________________________________________________________________________
Getting the last hit to land Critical took ten tries with a Crit rating of 4,119, 40% Chance, 76% Severity. The rest were pretty much averages of the total tries, though not once during all this about 24 times getting these numbers did my Elven Ferocity proc. Of course, we also have to take into consideration that things such as Master Poisoner, Elven Ferocity, and so on are all highly mitigatable, and affected by AC, Defense, and other resistances. I've seen Master Poisoner do as little as 30 dmg per tick on higher armored enemies.
Some things are meant to remain lost.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited November 2013
Sneak Attack TR skill This skill does not show 30% mobility increase on character sheet once skill is activated. It only shows 10% bonus..
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
I'm really disappointed at how many players need ITC on their bar. Granted yes, it is a 5 second CC-immunity skill and dps invulnerability, but the fact is, players that use Master Infiltrator successfully w/o ITC will have a better transition and effectiveness offensively while holding the same defensive capabilities that Master Infiltrator offered said players.
When you look at the dps capabilities that Whisperknife will offer, you can get more ranged/melee dps potential if you know how to string all of your skills together. Maximize that dps by correctly allocating class feats and paragon feats together, you'll be able to burst down and CC your opposition without them having much protection.
Vengeance's Pursuit allows other skills to be strung into a combo and Hateful Knives allows a decently powerful attack + prone to be afflicted + temporary combat advantage on that target for several seconds.
Whisperknife won't be for everybody, but don't be so quick to disregard the new paragon so easily when you haven't fought a proper TR using it yet.
Djaraud in my testing over on the HR thread I've seen crits happen as low as half the expected number of times to over the expexcted number of times running up to 90 attacks. Simple truth is that 1000's of experimental trials would be required to get a real understanding of the actual crit chance, the lower the chance something happens the more trials you need to have confidence in your data as well.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Tell me this combo that makes it great. I've tested it and while it sounds great on paper, in practice it is very underwhelming. I am not seeing the damage to make up for what we are losing.
"we all love this game and want it to thrive"
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yogokouMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2013
I haven't logged in the last two weeks. Any updates? Or no one cares?
I'm really disappointed at how many players need ITC on their bar. Granted yes, it is a 5 second CC-immunity skill and dps invulnerability, but the fact is, players that use Master Infiltrator successfully w/o ITC will have a better transition and effectiveness offensively while holding the same defensive capabilities that Master Infiltrator offered said players.
When you look at the dps capabilities that Whisperknife will offer, you can get more ranged/melee dps potential if you know how to string all of your skills together. Maximize that dps by correctly allocating class feats and paragon feats together, you'll be able to burst down and CC your opposition without them having much protection.
Vengeance's Pursuit allows other skills to be strung into a combo and Hateful Knives allows a decently powerful attack + prone to be afflicted + temporary combat advantage on that target for several seconds.
Whisperknife won't be for everybody, but don't be so quick to disregard the new paragon so easily when you haven't fought a proper TR using it yet.
ok, my feedback. The point is that ItC is pure utility encounter. TRs have a lot of damage encounters, so it makes sense when u replace one utility encounter with another if u change paragon path. Yes, VP offers utility, such as interrupt, cc break and slow\daze. Sounds good. But in practice animation of first portion is so slow that u can easily get stomped while throwing that knife. It's also interruptable. Not to mention that u cant double tap in quick succession, it needs some time to settle down. All this makes VP highly situational and it needs a LOT of preparations and perfect conditions to be effective. Which is not what ppl want from highly mobile class like TR. And we lose 15% movespeed, as well as 3% crt rate and deflect. For 15% damage increase when u r in 20 ft range. Khm-khm... That is nowhere near equal. So u need to be static a LOT of time, u have low movespeed, and u need to be close to target to dish out some damage that can be noticed. I doubt somebody will enjoy it. Me personally have perfect EB enchant and P. Vorpal/Terror. I have tested WK in pvp on preview. It's kinda fun to run around in stealth and throw knives. But when stealth ends, u r a cannon fodder. That cannot burst out any decent damage and have problems even to use at-will because it needs u to stay still and to wait for a crit in order to make noticable damage. Classes like GF and GWF laugh at my attempts to tickle them. And, as u remember, I had either p. vorpal or p.terror, also fomorian weapon set, skulker\swash, and 13k of mainly offensive well allocated stats. Also I had full dps feats. That says a lot to me. This PP can be viable in premade pvp, when u have ppl in vanguard and can safely wear down opps from distance. But in solo pvp it's highly questionable. And inb4 some cries, Im an experienced pvp player. I used to pvp a lot and I know how to play. 95% of matches I had least deaths. and around 50% of matches I have most kills. And I have problems with being useful when playing WK even with perf. enchants.. That again says a lot to me. And most ppl will never reach that level of equipment and enchants. What they gonna do? Feed and leave, flood forums and QQ.
I'm not crying I want ItC on WK or any other skill from MI. I'm just stating that for a PP with very limited offensive capability it has little to no defensive options and utilities.
For a DPS number crunching I was testing my WK with full offensive feat build, and perfect vorpal. Encounter setup was IS, PotB, VP, HK daily, LA daily, DK at-will and CoS at-will. This setup allows to use several types of damage simultaneously to maximize dps (eg PotB+DK bleed+CoS spamming ). With spamming dailies, at-wills and encounters non-stop, and with feature that increases damage in close range, I was able to reach mere 3k dps. I was able to reach same lvl of dps with my current hybrid exec build with just using gloaming cut in stealth. And my current build uses at max 50% of offensive feats. Thats says even more to me. DF damage is nearly equal in both cases (~5.2k dps). To say more, it's pretty equal for P. Vorpal and P. Terror, which surprised me. But I dont want to respec to WK and end up using DF, WoB, SB and Lashing blade. I want whole new way of playing which is viable at same time. Right now it's not.
Some ppl earlier in thread said that MI is good and WK is not atm, so let's nerf MI so ppl will want to play WK instead. Great logic. Instead of making sub-par PP viable and attractive, let's nerf other options so they will not be appealing anymore. Cryptic should hire u.
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yogokouMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2013
The main problem is all feedback was ignored, as except a week 1 change in VP, nothing else was changed. Here's hoping for the very near future.
The main problem is all feedback was ignored, as except a week 1 change in VP, nothing else was changed. Here's hoping for the very near future.
ye, agreed. So I didn't highlight my feedback. It's not for devs, it's for players, so we can discuss different points of view and ppl were also asking for some numbers for WK. I just hope devs will change a lot of things after it goes live, so we can really have different viable choices for all classes. As it stands now (according to general feedback) we have 3 new subpar PPs (DC, CW and TR) and incredibly creative PPs for GWF and GF which add nothing new to gameplay cuz it's just swap of their existing paragons. But at least they are powerful (according to general feedback again). And a new class, whose role can't be defined yet, and which has already disappointed majority of ppl (who is not just ranger fanatic).
And the main problem is that all these PPs were in-game (for devs) since open beta, they had huge amount of feedback of different kinds, they can at least invite some volunteers from playerbase to test all things and adjust, but ... nothing was changed and done.
Andy Velasquez stated that they listened to players and they are glad that so many ppl liked pvp portion of NWO and that they will add diversity to pvp in module 2, but again... You can see it all yourself.
My feedback, just forget about Whisperknife if you want to be viable in any aspect of the game that includes group. For solo purposes ppl might come up with some permastealth stuff but i doubt it will be more effective than the current permastealth specs out there.
Wait.. The only thing you really loose in choosing WK is ITC and some class features, which given you get effective feature replacements really means you lose ITC.
I'm happy to give up ITC as I get no benefit out of it that I don't gain by being able to stay away from things, but I only care about PvE as GG is the only PvP I do and going for more than 10 minutes of that doesn't happen except on my DC.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I just thought about changes that can be made to WK so it will become more fun to play and more unique. It's only speculations, Im not pretending to be a developer, but I think they might look at it. I think poison-based rogue is much more canonical then just throwing knives.
1. Change existing class features to these:Feature a) u have a chance (maybe 5%) to poison ur target with ur skills. Poison lasts for 10 sec and deals ~5k damage. Feature b) u have a chance to poison ur target with ur skills. Poison lasts for 10 sec and reduces target' attack damage and damage reduction by 10%.
2. Change existing paragon at-will, daily and encounter so they have synergy with poison class features. At-will: If target is poisoned, DK adds slow effect for the duration of bleed. Encounter: If target is poisoned, deals double damage. Stealth version of encounter now knocks down poisoned target, while non-stealth dazes. Daily: If target is poisoned, damage dealt ignores resistance of the target.
Ofc numbers and percentage need adjustment, but I like the idea of poison-based rogue, and it would be more fun to play and still viable.
/discuss
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rosicrucianistMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Wait.. The only thing you really loose in choosing WK is ITC and some class features, which given you get effective feature replacements really means you lose ITC.
I'm happy to give up ITC as I get no benefit out of it that I don't gain by being able to stay away from things, but I only care about PvE as GG is the only PvP I do and going for more than 10 minutes of that doesn't happen except on my DC.
That's what I Initially thought, as I rarely use ITC and don't use SE, but losing the run speed and crit chance hurts, at least in PvP.
No offense, but I feel scammed. as a TR I changed to the new Paragon path. But soon after I found myself in a position I said to myself; ""Why did I even change, this path is so underpowered. My moves barely damage anymore."
I switched to Whisperknife with the free reset on my 60 TR. I looked through the skills and feats and decided to give it a try.
On paper, the skills seem to flow pretty easily with each other. You're not limited to melee or ranged individually but you can mix them up or just do one or the other.
In practice, this was an entirely different story. The new At-Will seems pretty nice, gives a good DoT and can be pumped up even more with Feats. However, getting the **** thing off is a problem in itself. The new Encounter is pretty cool too, assuming you don't get CC-Locked while trying to cast the **** thing. I understand the second activation is supposed to break CC but you're not getting that off when you can't even get the first cast off.
I'd like to say the new Daily is pretty cool but, as a TR, you need the "Holy **** what just hit me" damage that the daily doesn't really give.
It's not like playing a TR wasn't already hard enough but this Paragon Path needs some polishing. I really don't know how well it fairs in PvE since PvE in most games is stupid easy and hardly ever enjoyable. However, in PvP, this Paragon Path is ridiculously underwhelming.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
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mzethusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2013
Hello people, i have been playing Whisper Knife for a week now i believe and i'm here to share my feedback.
Ok, first of all, keep in mind i'm no PVP nor PVE junky, i'm an average player who likes to have fun while enjoying to beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of people in a smart way. I am a 10.5k GS TR and a Scoundrel.
So, for the feedback:
1 - The skills need polishing, like it's been said before, it sounds good on paper, but things are way too slow, underpowered and hard to execute in the confusion of PVP.
2 - PVE wise, i dont even use any of the paragon skills, only DS when things hit hard and i wanna stay distant, on wich i do very little damage, and i mean very little really, it's less than the sly flourish, even with the DoT.
3 - I love the daily, i understand it's not meant for power (if it is meant for power, your way off) but the knock down it does on people can be a life saver or a life crusher on the right ocasion, mainly because it has a very long reach and just beat the person down like that, giving time for your team to kill that annoying CW or GF that was stepping on our cubes!
About the skills specifically:
Vengeful pursuit
This one just doesn't cut it. You need to jump in the air to mark the target and after 10 seconds, it's not marked anymore. It doesn't activate the second part of the skill immediately wich is just awful when trying to use it for CC evasion. Maybe it's just me who doesn't get along with the **** skill but i think it needs to be more useful.
Also, the CC immunity only works for 1 second or half a second or whatever, i rather just have some other skill there that actually makes any decent damage (yes, this one sucks for damage).
On the bright side, it's useful to have a second Def strike (SORTA!) so you can chase people down. The aoe of the skill doesnt do any good for pvp. Never slotted it on PVE, not even for testing, sorry.
Disenheartning Strike
It's too slow. You need to stand still on a pool of sharks throwing candy popsticles at them to tease, because it sure is not gonna kill them. And don't even try to use this for 1v1, by the time you throw a second thingy, they are on you.
This is good for throwing one or two, and jumping in to strike people, but those precious second that you are standing still kinda ruin it for me.
All in all, i think a TR is made to be moving around, not a static attacker. This would work if somehow DS would be executable on the move, being nerfed of course so it doesnt become overpowered. We would need vengeful pursuit to also work better, maybe keeping the mark for longer or being faster to execute, i don't really know. The daily is spot on.
WARNING: Wall of text below!! The following is my feedback/review of the Whisperknife. If you want the essentials, just read some of the more clear and concise reviews given by excellent individuals above. If you are a more relaxed gamer, loving both PvP and PvE, loving the RP aspect of games and enjoys talking about what makes a good, immersive RPG, then sit back and enjoy.
The Whisperknife is certainly an interesting concept, I'll give you that.
The way it offers a distinctly different play-style from the more familiar ('familiar', as witnessed by countless MMOGs that features stealth-based assassin/rogue type character classes) Master Infiltrator path -- which, admittedly, gets really old really fast, and much too predictable at times ... especially if you have been playing MMOG PvE/PvP for 20 years, like I have.
Therefore, before I dwell into specifics, I would like to make it clear that I am very enthusiastic about what WK has to offer, and any criticism surfacing in this post is meant to be constructive.
1. WHISPERKNIFE: THE PROS
A. The RP Factor: It's Different!!
Let's be honest, here. Rogues -- when you've seen one, you've seen them all.
The irony here, is that the D&D franchise is perhaps the very beginning of this entire concept of a nimble, shady figure dancing in shadows, stealthily approaching a target and striking it down with deadly efficiency. For some reason the world's first TRPG never really transitioned too well into modern MMOG formats, and therefore, most of us old-timers have witnessed two decades worth of fantasy-genre MMOGs featuring assassins and rogues.
In that sense, the Whisperknife is certainly a refreshing experience. Essentially, it is a range-heavy hybrid style that is very enjoyable to play with. It could very well be said that it is a different approach to portraying the iconic "Rogue class" as part of the fantasy genre.
Nowadays, almost every game portrays Rogues as a "ninja assassins" rather than.. well.. "rogues". From a gaming history point of view, this is actually a result of the Japanese 'ninja' genre successfully leaving an impact to the world -- starting from the '80s and all around the '90s, the highly stylized 'ninja action' sequences have become almost iconic. Since then almost every game up to date simply chose to equate the 'rogue' with the 'master-assassin/ninja'.
But to us old timers, we remember the original Rogues very differently.
To us, Rogues were more like "Han Solo", rather than "Hattori Hanzo" or "Ezio Audatore". Sure, they would kill from stealth -- sometimes brutally -- but the overall mythos surrounding these shady figures were more akin to scoundrels and ruffians, not really willing to take chances, nor willing to get too 'up close and personal' unless absolutely necessary.
If the MI symbolizes the trend of portraying rogues as assassins/ninjas, the "feel" of the WK rings more true to the origins of the rogue class. Way too many people make up a dark, sinister, lonewolf, bad-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, and much-to-serious back stabbing ninja character out of their rogue.
Me? I think I rather like the "Eat this! " attitude when you fling Vengeance's Pursuit. I mean, I'm a 4ft. tall Halfling -- who seriously thinks they can make a 4ft. tall female figure look bad-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>? (well, except Hit-Girl, maybe )
In a Nutshell: The Style of Combat itself has Very Cool RP/Immersion Value
B. Different Game Play: Brains over Brawn
While the "stealthed master assassin" image may appeal to a lot of people, for some players like me (20 years, remember? ), it can get really dull. More dull than what any other classes may offer.
Part of the reason is that in terms of combat, whether it be PvP or PvE, stealth is an incredibly powerful advantage , period. In any game, any PvP mode, when stealth characters are involved they immediately become pivotal to the outcome of the battle. Many of the adept can accomplish some incredible feats with stealth characters, and this remains the same in Neverwinter as well -- despite the fact that stealth is used in short, timed-bursts (excluding some min/maxed permastealth builds that exploit/warp the gameplay mechanics to the extremes).
Without very useful/intuitive anti-measures in the form of stealth detection, basically, remaining under stealth directly equates to winning. Its like shooting fish in a barrel. The required rotations and moves may require some practice, but in PvP its still basically 'approach & kill'. Most average people hardly know how to counter the impending doom -- and if they can do this to much powerful player characters, imagine what it can do to AI controlled mobs.
In most cases its just carnage.
Just do the rotations right and with the exception of dungeon-grade mobs, every single mob in the field, even 3~4 elites at a time, are just fodder. You hardly lose any health at all. It becomes a repetition of hard alpha-strike -> stealth before mobs react/retaliate -> kill all trash mobs -> kill elite mobs. If you have a stealh-replenisher, then it's just stealth -> kill -> kill -> kill -> kill, encounter finished.
Sure, its powerful. But seriously, where's the fun in shooting fish in a barrel?
Now, of course, being powerful equates to being efficient. So when you mix in the [invisibility=no way to fight back=ultimate defense] factor with the [mega-crits = mega-damage = ultimate attack] factor, the assassin type of rogue is probably one of the most efficient and powerful mob-busters in the game as it is.
But if you go down the path of [efficiency above all] to the bitter end, then the ultimate goal of the game would simply become acquiring a type of "I Win Button".
- Oh, mobs
- Push button
- Mob dead
- Enemy player!
- Permastealth
- Mash button
- Player dead
That's what awaits you at the end of that brutal, no-compromises min/max road.
Trust me, I've been there. It's just not all that its cracked up to be.
The novelty wears off quickly when you realize you'll probably kill anything really quick with almost no danger of dying. After then, you move on to intentional griefing, since you don't have any way to get the kicks from the game anymore... then, that gets old, too. So you quit the game. That's what happens.
...
Sometimes, being a bit inefficient can be a lot of fun. Thematic builds, concept builds, RP builds -- they may not be as powerful as the most min/maxed build out there, but then again, a bit of a compromise can add to the challenge level just enough to get that sense of achievement. The thrill of improvising as compared to repetitive meticulous execution of a 'stealth-kill everything in 10 seconds' plan.
That's what the WK play style can offer you.
The immediate difference I noticed, was that every encounter was different with the non-orthodox (meaning: non-stealth oriented and non-mega damage oriented) WK style. The alpha strikes and attack sequences are different with each enemy composition you meet. Also, without repeatedly entering stealth, often the risk management would totally be reliant on you, the player, to think of quick and improvised tactics -- again, differing each time on the situations you meet -- to reduce incoming damage to minimum, move like a butterfly, sting like a bee.
In fact, I found myself often running around flinging knives, jumping to terrains, dodging left and right, switching around priority targets at an insane rate according to flow of the situation, and everything required much more mobility and quick thinking than when I was with a MI build. With that, it was just a simple matter of "stealth, kill, replenish stealth, kill some more, re-enter stealth, kill everything left". What happens when you are in trouble? Stealth, silly.
Not so with WK. Honestly, WK was so fun to play with, despite the first impressions of being frail and weak. In terms of sheer killing power, and ease of control, frankly it does not match up to MI. Notice that I did not say it was weak or inferior. I simply said it doesn't match up. There's a difference.
I did realize WK is simply all about the skill and experience of the player himself, and honestly every situation was interesting with it.
Thematically speaking, the WK style fits closely to the "mischievous scoundrel" or "nimble and playful thief" concept, as compared to the "Arrrrrr....blood and gore.. death and carnage... crazy ninja slaughterfest..." type of play style the MI tends to identify with.
In terms of build technicalities, it is rather simple and easy to "mix-it-up" and push the hybridization even further, sort of making it a half-and-half between a WK and a MI, depending on the power choices you decide to stick with.
In a Nutshell: Fast-paced, Quick-Thinking Improvisation and Instinctive Styles of Play
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
To make a long story short, it is entirely clear that the current available Feats were originally intended for Master Infiltrator powers/build synergies, without much consideration into expanding it to fit WK.
Now, I am not sure if the Feats themselves were originally designed this way in D&D 4th, but being a WK has some implications in certain aspects, which demand a compensation in other aspects, to overall make the concept be viable.
The advantages gained to WK through each of the three Paragon Feats are very situational at beast, and not all that noticeable -- as compared to what it does for MI.
Now, I'm not saying that the WK does not rely on stealth at all. A WK is still a rogue, and therefore stealth and its advantages are also a central mechanic to how the class plays it out. However, the weight of advantages the Feats hold, is clearly in favor of MI.
Why this is so, is explained in the following section.
In a Nutshell: Benefit of Feats to WK is severely limited, than compared to MI
B. General Imbalance in Performance to MI
Generally speaking, when you simplify the concept of balance, it boils down to:
1. A is as powerful as B in every way = Balance
2. A is not powerful as B in certain aspects, but is more powerful than B in other aspects = Balance
3. A is not powerful as B in all aspects = Imbalance
The thing is, currently, there's not much in terms of performance -- in ALL aspects -- that WK can offer over MI.
Leaning heavily to the "medium-ranged, hit-and-run" side of the Rogue, WK is understandably weaker in terms of average damage output, be it burst or sustained. Melee is in most cases (for many games) much more powerful than ranged. Everyone understands that.
But then, does the "ranged" aspect of the WK elevate it higher than the MI in terms of defense or survival? Unfortunately, the answer is no.
In terms of self-defense, as mentioned before, stealth is essentially be-all, do-all. For MI builds, maximizing in stealth potency allows higher general damage output as well, since of course, the longer you are alive, the more damage you deal.
Now, generally WK powers and features are sorely lacking in terms of damage, that often you are tempted to offset it any way, any length you can by going with Executioner Feats... which still benefit it only marginally. Go with Saboteur and your survival easily extends higher than the normal MI build, but then your contribution as a supposedly "high-damaging class" becomes pale in comparison to what the MI can achieve in terms of damage with the same Saboteur Feats.
Frankly speaking, the only reason you have high survival rate is because you can fling daggers from 60' away in stealth, and stay there for a long time flinging dagger after dagger... which means to a heavily armored class, you're basically chucking cotton balls during the time he's beating upon your team members.
This becomes ever more apparent in team content -- dungeons or skirmishes. WK struggles with its role. As a rogue -- supposedly the most competent damage dealer of them all -- you can't deal as much damage. You can't kill as much mobs. Your contribution falls below the rest, and even with above-average grade of gear, unless you switch a lot of powers to the more powerful melee ones (which simply means you're giving up on the mobile and instinctive WK style, and just switching back to stationary melee mashing)
Okay. That's cool.
So, WK is relatively lacking in terms of damage... the stealth factor doesn't offer as much advantage to WK than compared to MI... okay, I understand. All it can do is fling weak daggers from a distance (which as a result, adds to survival.. but yeah, still..).
I'm cool with that.
Then....
There must be some redeeming feature in other aspects.. such as utility... or teammate support... or CC... or anything... that makes up for the evidently lacking performance in terms of all the 'traditional strong points of the rogue'
Right? RIGHT?!?!
Unfortunately, nope. The Feats hardly add any useful amounts of utility to the WK powers given.
The Scoundrel path does not add anything much to any build, and generally much unpopular to people. The Executioner gives up on a lot of stealth, which in turn means a hit to the survival rate for Rogues. It rewards the WK with a marginal improvement in damage, but that's still not too impressive. Go with Saboteur and you're stuck with even weaker damage.
But then, surely, there's gotta be something with those Feats that adds significantly to utility?
No. Really. There isn't any.
Any type of CC the MI can use as well, since none of that relates with the powers/feats given to you by WK. You do have a small stun on Vengeance's Pursuit -- but it only activates under certain conditions. You also have a possibility of an interrupt with the Determined Pursuit Feat ... but honestly, it rarely works out too well when you're busy distracted by the botched Vengeance's Pursuit throw attempt.
Any attempt to increase the utility of the class inevitably results in the style changing considerably to melee style... and even the Dagger Threat class feature... the sorely needed damage boost to your dagger attacks... apply only within 20ft. from the target...
Dudes, what gives??!! What's the point in being medium-range hit&runner when you only hit hard from a range where one approach from a GF or a GWF is gonna simply end your life? :rolleyes:
In a Nutshell: There's no relevant Role that WK does, that MI cannot do better
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Again, I'm totally cool with low-damage, high-risk types of game play. It just adds that much more to the challenge and fun. Provided, that there's some redeeming feature that goes along with the choice. Conceptually, WK fits well with the concept of a 'trickster' than an 'assassin', so then why not give some useful tricks in turn?
In terms of PvE content, okay, fine, WK will not be the damage dealer. Then there could be all kinds of useful power suggestions like:
Original Power/Feat Suggestions
[Aggro transfer function]
* PvE: Transfer an aggro from an enemy and forcibly lock on to the Rogue for x seconds
* PvP: Switch targeting and lock it on the Rogue for x seconds
[Placate function]
* PvE: Dumps all aggro from the Rogue for x seconds
* PvP: Unable to target the Rogue for x seconds
[Caltrops]
* PvE/PvP; Deals minor damage and y% slow effect at a small z ft. radius for x seconds
[Rapid Dodges]
* shortens dodge distance to 5ft
* 30% less stamina spent when dodging
Suggestions Imported(and adapted) Straight from D&D 4th
* Acrobatic Strike[at-will/5sec/x2]
- acrobatically jump sideways and fling a knife
- immune to CCs while activated, but not to damage
* Whispered Vengeance[encounter/15sec]
- run speed is increased by y% for x seconds
- while buff is up, all thrown dagger attacks against any enemy that attacked an ally within last 5 seconds
(not yourself) will generate 5% higher crit chance / 10% higher crit severity
* Unbalancing Shot[encounter/5sec]
- throws dagger
- hit target will be slowed for y% movement speed for x seconds
- debuff stacks 2 times
* Fettering Shot[encounter/15sec]
- throws dagger
- Roots target for x seconds
This is just an example of some of the power choices I would have considered. Some of these could be turned into more useful Feats, instead of the generally bland and ineffective ones we have now.
In a Nutshell: Need Powers/Feats that emphasize on Unique utility of Whisperknives, instead of try compete in the Damage category against Master Infiltrators
B. Changes to Existing Powers
Vengeance's Pursuit
- Does not root the player when acivated
- Less activation delay between thrown and melee part of the power
- Very short 'CC immunity' (not to damage) when the melee portion lands on target
Disheartening Strike
** I'd suggest either;
- Let the attack stack for two times, second stack doing only 50% of damage
- Let the attack last longer for 8 seconds with slightly faster tick
Frankly speaking, none of these suggestions are really "thought out". It's simply a sample as a reminder to what the WK should be like in PvP/PvE of Neverwinter.
Again, as long as the class remains competent in at least some DISTINCT, UNIQUE way that is clearly different from other classes, I don't mind lower damage, I don't mind not being able to kill anyone 1vs1, I don't mind its not all that cracked up to be in dungeon raids.
In a Nutshell: Just give the WK SOMETHING, that makes it unique
Cheers to all.
.
- fin.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Comments
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Post-patch From Visible position:
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 874 (833) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 874 (833) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 255 (243) Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 874 (833) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 874 (833) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 255 (243) Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 874 (833) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 874 (833) Physical to Target Dummy.
Post-patch From Hidden position:
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1100 (1048) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1100 (1048) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1100 (1048) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 255 (243) Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1100 (1048) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1100 (1048) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1100 (1048) Physical to Target Dummy.
Post-Patch from hidden position Critical hit:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2005 (1909) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 255 (243) Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 255 (243) Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2005 (1909) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2005 (1909) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2005 (1909) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2005 (1909) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2005 (1909) Physical to Target Dummy.
Pre-Patch; Visible position:
= [Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 978 Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Elven Ferocity deals 455 Arcane to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 978 Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 978 Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 240 Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 978 Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 978 Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 978 Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 240 Necrotic to Target Dummy.
Pre-patch from hidden position Critical hit:
= [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2383 Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Elven Ferocity deals 548 Arcane to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 240 Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2383 Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2383 Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 240 Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2383 Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2383 Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2383 Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 240 Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 240 Necrotic to Target Dummy.
Thanks for the reply. I am getting similar numbers. nowhere near the 4k that the video shows.
Have you gone up against a Vanguard yet on the test server? I did before the latest patch and using only the at range powers/wills couldn't do enough damage. Keep in mind that while you will start at range they will use the gap closer and time it to hit you without stealth. You are going to have to use duelist flurry on them especially the new GWF. Also as a side effect, if you are staying completely at range with lower dps, the gf/gwf can hold on to the point longer. With this new method you can't even contest the point as you will be in too close.
Against tanks that don't understand gap closers/ prones you will do great with the powers. However trying that against someone who knows how to time their encounters and you will not be able to do enough damage. This is with perfect weapon enchantments. For those of us not in perfects it will be harder.
Also what are your thoughts on the utility of the encounter? The only thing I can see it being good for is a)gap closer b) if you are being cc'ed by a wizard. I don't see it help in any way for avoiding prones. Interested to see if anyone else has found success with it. I could be doing it wrong.
ouch, no bueno
Btw what video?
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I do mostly pvp. This new paragon sounds great with alot of potential but when you use it in practice. Especially against the better players it seems inferior. This isn't to say it won't work but I've tried the obvious builds with it and not getting good results. I am very interested to hear other builds with it that people like. It seems like the skills that would help it are the ones taken away. For instance, they added a stun to the encounter. Sounds good right, however it is a 1 sec stun and in pvp it doesn't seem to do much as you have a delay yourself after using it. Again the most potential would lie in the at will. However in practice it doesn't do enough damage to justify using it over duelist/cos combo. Maybe it could stack to 5 or so. Or another idea would be for it to have additional power if you hit your marked target. Maybe more damage, stun, etc.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My 2k crits with Rank 5s and no Artifact or Boons gives me confidence that much higher values can be obtained with the best gear.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Don't forget that such videos are done in a way that most likely, the one controlling the character has access to command strings allowing them the best of what-ever they decide to put on that characters. Advertisement game-play is normally done by a member of the dev/combat team in the MMORPG world, and those people can easily just add command line to put anything they want on their character.
Along a different line, WK has right now effectively two different ways to optimize, as far as I see.
WK path 1: Full Skulkers, recovery gear and Stealth recycling, which with HK daily is easier than before with LA daily, at least in my experience thus far.
WK path 2: Full Fey, a ton of Tenebrous+HP enchants, as well as DoT proccing Weapon, and Armour Enchants + DoT/DD Proccing Boons.
WK path option 3: The prior two could be mixed, but would likely prove far less effective than just as they stand.
In the end, I have found that WK Path 2, does far more damage, and seems more likely to garner Critical hits, but you will have to be darting in and out of range far more often.
Prior test dummy post was wearing Skulk and not using some other stuff, this one is in full Fey, with additions, you'll see the difference easily:
From visible stance: Critical
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 1817 (1731) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 1817 (1731) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 1817 (1731) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 1817 (1731) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 1817 (1731) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 255 (243) Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1277 (1216) Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 1817 (1731) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1216 Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 243 Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1216 Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1216 Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1216 Poison to Target Dummy.
From hidden stance non-critical:
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1123 (1069) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1123 (1069) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1123 (1069) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1537 (1464) Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1123 (1069) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1123 (1069) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 255 (243) Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1537 (1464) Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 255 (243) Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Disheartening Strike deals 1123 (1069) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1464 Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1464 Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 2049 (1464) Poison to Target Dummy.
From hidden position Critical:
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2055 (1957) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 255 (243) Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2055 (1957) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2055 (1957) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1537 (1464) Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2055 (1957) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2055 (1957) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1537 (1464) Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Tenebrous Power deals 255 (243) Necrotic to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Disheartening Strike deals 2055 (1957) Physical to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1464 Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1464 Poison to Target Dummy.
[Combat (Self)] Your Master Poisoner deals 1464 Poison to Target Dummy.
__________________________________________________________________________________
Getting the last hit to land Critical took ten tries with a Crit rating of 4,119, 40% Chance, 76% Severity. The rest were pretty much averages of the total tries, though not once during all this about 24 times getting these numbers did my Elven Ferocity proc. Of course, we also have to take into consideration that things such as Master Poisoner, Elven Ferocity, and so on are all highly mitigatable, and affected by AC, Defense, and other resistances. I've seen Master Poisoner do as little as 30 dmg per tick on higher armored enemies.
This skill does not show 30% mobility increase on character sheet once skill is activated. It only shows 10% bonus..
When you look at the dps capabilities that Whisperknife will offer, you can get more ranged/melee dps potential if you know how to string all of your skills together. Maximize that dps by correctly allocating class feats and paragon feats together, you'll be able to burst down and CC your opposition without them having much protection.
Vengeance's Pursuit allows other skills to be strung into a combo and Hateful Knives allows a decently powerful attack + prone to be afflicted + temporary combat advantage on that target for several seconds.
Whisperknife won't be for everybody, but don't be so quick to disregard the new paragon so easily when you haven't fought a proper TR using it yet.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I'm not crying I want ItC on WK or any other skill from MI. I'm just stating that for a PP with very limited offensive capability it has little to no defensive options and utilities.
For a DPS number crunching I was testing my WK with full offensive feat build, and perfect vorpal. Encounter setup was IS, PotB, VP, HK daily, LA daily, DK at-will and CoS at-will. This setup allows to use several types of damage simultaneously to maximize dps (eg PotB+DK bleed+CoS spamming ). With spamming dailies, at-wills and encounters non-stop, and with feature that increases damage in close range, I was able to reach mere 3k dps. I was able to reach same lvl of dps with my current hybrid exec build with just using gloaming cut in stealth. And my current build uses at max 50% of offensive feats. Thats says even more to me. DF damage is nearly equal in both cases (~5.2k dps). To say more, it's pretty equal for P. Vorpal and P. Terror, which surprised me. But I dont want to respec to WK and end up using DF, WoB, SB and Lashing blade. I want whole new way of playing which is viable at same time. Right now it's not.
Some ppl earlier in thread said that MI is good and WK is not atm, so let's nerf MI so ppl will want to play WK instead. Great logic. Instead of making sub-par PP viable and attractive, let's nerf other options so they will not be appealing anymore. Cryptic should hire u.
And the main problem is that all these PPs were in-game (for devs) since open beta, they had huge amount of feedback of different kinds, they can at least invite some volunteers from playerbase to test all things and adjust, but ... nothing was changed and done.
Andy Velasquez stated that they listened to players and they are glad that so many ppl liked pvp portion of NWO and that they will add diversity to pvp in module 2, but again... You can see it all yourself.
I'm happy to give up ITC as I get no benefit out of it that I don't gain by being able to stay away from things, but I only care about PvE as GG is the only PvP I do and going for more than 10 minutes of that doesn't happen except on my DC.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
1. Change existing class features to these:Feature a) u have a chance (maybe 5%) to poison ur target with ur skills. Poison lasts for 10 sec and deals ~5k damage. Feature b) u have a chance to poison ur target with ur skills. Poison lasts for 10 sec and reduces target' attack damage and damage reduction by 10%.
2. Change existing paragon at-will, daily and encounter so they have synergy with poison class features. At-will: If target is poisoned, DK adds slow effect for the duration of bleed. Encounter: If target is poisoned, deals double damage. Stealth version of encounter now knocks down poisoned target, while non-stealth dazes. Daily: If target is poisoned, damage dealt ignores resistance of the target.
Ofc numbers and percentage need adjustment, but I like the idea of poison-based rogue, and it would be more fun to play and still viable.
/discuss
That's what I Initially thought, as I rarely use ITC and don't use SE, but losing the run speed and crit chance hurts, at least in PvP.
On paper, the skills seem to flow pretty easily with each other. You're not limited to melee or ranged individually but you can mix them up or just do one or the other.
In practice, this was an entirely different story. The new At-Will seems pretty nice, gives a good DoT and can be pumped up even more with Feats. However, getting the **** thing off is a problem in itself. The new Encounter is pretty cool too, assuming you don't get CC-Locked while trying to cast the **** thing. I understand the second activation is supposed to break CC but you're not getting that off when you can't even get the first cast off.
I'd like to say the new Daily is pretty cool but, as a TR, you need the "Holy **** what just hit me" damage that the daily doesn't really give.
It's not like playing a TR wasn't already hard enough but this Paragon Path needs some polishing. I really don't know how well it fairs in PvE since PvE in most games is stupid easy and hardly ever enjoyable. However, in PvP, this Paragon Path is ridiculously underwhelming.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
Ok, first of all, keep in mind i'm no PVP nor PVE junky, i'm an average player who likes to have fun while enjoying to beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of people in a smart way. I am a 10.5k GS TR and a Scoundrel.
So, for the feedback:
1 - The skills need polishing, like it's been said before, it sounds good on paper, but things are way too slow, underpowered and hard to execute in the confusion of PVP.
2 - PVE wise, i dont even use any of the paragon skills, only DS when things hit hard and i wanna stay distant, on wich i do very little damage, and i mean very little really, it's less than the sly flourish, even with the DoT.
3 - I love the daily, i understand it's not meant for power (if it is meant for power, your way off) but the knock down it does on people can be a life saver or a life crusher on the right ocasion, mainly because it has a very long reach and just beat the person down like that, giving time for your team to kill that annoying CW or GF that was stepping on our cubes!
About the skills specifically:
Vengeful pursuit
This one just doesn't cut it. You need to jump in the air to mark the target and after 10 seconds, it's not marked anymore. It doesn't activate the second part of the skill immediately wich is just awful when trying to use it for CC evasion. Maybe it's just me who doesn't get along with the **** skill but i think it needs to be more useful.
Also, the CC immunity only works for 1 second or half a second or whatever, i rather just have some other skill there that actually makes any decent damage (yes, this one sucks for damage).
On the bright side, it's useful to have a second Def strike (SORTA!) so you can chase people down. The aoe of the skill doesnt do any good for pvp. Never slotted it on PVE, not even for testing, sorry.
Disenheartning Strike
It's too slow. You need to stand still on a pool of sharks throwing candy popsticles at them to tease, because it sure is not gonna kill them. And don't even try to use this for 1v1, by the time you throw a second thingy, they are on you.
This is good for throwing one or two, and jumping in to strike people, but those precious second that you are standing still kinda ruin it for me.
All in all, i think a TR is made to be moving around, not a static attacker. This would work if somehow DS would be executable on the move, being nerfed of course so it doesnt become overpowered. We would need vengeful pursuit to also work better, maybe keeping the mark for longer or being faster to execute, i don't really know. The daily is spot on.
Hope it helped somehow, to someone, cheers.
The following is my feedback/review of the Whisperknife. If you want the essentials, just read some of the more clear and concise reviews given by excellent individuals above. If you are a more relaxed gamer, loving both PvP and PvE, loving the RP aspect of games and enjoys talking about what makes a good, immersive RPG, then sit back and enjoy.
The Whisperknife is certainly an interesting concept, I'll give you that.
The way it offers a distinctly different play-style from the more familiar ('familiar', as witnessed by countless MMOGs that features stealth-based assassin/rogue type character classes) Master Infiltrator path -- which, admittedly, gets really old really fast, and much too predictable at times ... especially if you have been playing MMOG PvE/PvP for 20 years, like I have.
Therefore, before I dwell into specifics, I would like to make it clear that I am very enthusiastic about what WK has to offer, and any criticism surfacing in this post is meant to be constructive.
1. WHISPERKNIFE: THE PROS
A. The RP Factor: It's Different!!
Let's be honest, here. Rogues -- when you've seen one, you've seen them all.
The irony here, is that the D&D franchise is perhaps the very beginning of this entire concept of a nimble, shady figure dancing in shadows, stealthily approaching a target and striking it down with deadly efficiency. For some reason the world's first TRPG never really transitioned too well into modern MMOG formats, and therefore, most of us old-timers have witnessed two decades worth of fantasy-genre MMOGs featuring assassins and rogues.
In that sense, the Whisperknife is certainly a refreshing experience. Essentially, it is a range-heavy hybrid style that is very enjoyable to play with. It could very well be said that it is a different approach to portraying the iconic "Rogue class" as part of the fantasy genre.
Nowadays, almost every game portrays Rogues as a "ninja assassins" rather than.. well.. "rogues". From a gaming history point of view, this is actually a result of the Japanese 'ninja' genre successfully leaving an impact to the world -- starting from the '80s and all around the '90s, the highly stylized 'ninja action' sequences have become almost iconic. Since then almost every game up to date simply chose to equate the 'rogue' with the 'master-assassin/ninja'.
But to us old timers, we remember the original Rogues very differently.
To us, Rogues were more like "Han Solo", rather than "Hattori Hanzo" or "Ezio Audatore". Sure, they would kill from stealth -- sometimes brutally -- but the overall mythos surrounding these shady figures were more akin to scoundrels and ruffians, not really willing to take chances, nor willing to get too 'up close and personal' unless absolutely necessary.
If the MI symbolizes the trend of portraying rogues as assassins/ninjas, the "feel" of the WK rings more true to the origins of the rogue class. Way too many people make up a dark, sinister, lonewolf, bad-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, and much-to-serious back stabbing ninja character out of their rogue.
Me? I think I rather like the "Eat this!
In a Nutshell: The Style of Combat itself has Very Cool RP/Immersion Value
B. Different Game Play: Brains over Brawn
While the "stealthed master assassin" image may appeal to a lot of people, for some players like me (20 years, remember?
Part of the reason is that in terms of combat, whether it be PvP or PvE, stealth is an incredibly powerful advantage , period. In any game, any PvP mode, when stealth characters are involved they immediately become pivotal to the outcome of the battle. Many of the adept can accomplish some incredible feats with stealth characters, and this remains the same in Neverwinter as well -- despite the fact that stealth is used in short, timed-bursts (excluding some min/maxed permastealth builds that exploit/warp the gameplay mechanics to the extremes).
Without very useful/intuitive anti-measures in the form of stealth detection, basically, remaining under stealth directly equates to winning. Its like shooting fish in a barrel. The required rotations and moves may require some practice, but in PvP its still basically 'approach & kill'. Most average people hardly know how to counter the impending doom -- and if they can do this to much powerful player characters, imagine what it can do to AI controlled mobs.
In most cases its just carnage.
Just do the rotations right and with the exception of dungeon-grade mobs, every single mob in the field, even 3~4 elites at a time, are just fodder. You hardly lose any health at all. It becomes a repetition of hard alpha-strike -> stealth before mobs react/retaliate -> kill all trash mobs -> kill elite mobs. If you have a stealh-replenisher, then it's just stealth -> kill -> kill -> kill -> kill, encounter finished.
Sure, its powerful. But seriously, where's the fun in shooting fish in a barrel?
Now, of course, being powerful equates to being efficient. So when you mix in the [invisibility=no way to fight back=ultimate defense] factor with the [mega-crits = mega-damage = ultimate attack] factor, the assassin type of rogue is probably one of the most efficient and powerful mob-busters in the game as it is.
But if you go down the path of [efficiency above all] to the bitter end, then the ultimate goal of the game would simply become acquiring a type of "I Win Button".
- Oh, mobs
- Push button
- Mob dead
- Enemy player!
- Permastealth
- Mash button
- Player dead
That's what awaits you at the end of that brutal, no-compromises min/max road.
Trust me, I've been there. It's just not all that its cracked up to be.
The novelty wears off quickly when you realize you'll probably kill anything really quick with almost no danger of dying. After then, you move on to intentional griefing, since you don't have any way to get the kicks from the game anymore... then, that gets old, too. So you quit the game. That's what happens.
...
Sometimes, being a bit inefficient can be a lot of fun. Thematic builds, concept builds, RP builds -- they may not be as powerful as the most min/maxed build out there, but then again, a bit of a compromise can add to the challenge level just enough to get that sense of achievement. The thrill of improvising as compared to repetitive meticulous execution of a 'stealth-kill everything in 10 seconds' plan.
That's what the WK play style can offer you.
The immediate difference I noticed, was that every encounter was different with the non-orthodox (meaning: non-stealth oriented and non-mega damage oriented) WK style. The alpha strikes and attack sequences are different with each enemy composition you meet. Also, without repeatedly entering stealth, often the risk management would totally be reliant on you, the player, to think of quick and improvised tactics -- again, differing each time on the situations you meet -- to reduce incoming damage to minimum, move like a butterfly, sting like a bee.
In fact, I found myself often running around flinging knives, jumping to terrains, dodging left and right, switching around priority targets at an insane rate according to flow of the situation, and everything required much more mobility and quick thinking than when I was with a MI build. With that, it was just a simple matter of "stealth, kill, replenish stealth, kill some more, re-enter stealth, kill everything left". What happens when you are in trouble? Stealth, silly.
Not so with WK. Honestly, WK was so fun to play with, despite the first impressions of being frail and weak. In terms of sheer killing power, and ease of control, frankly it does not match up to MI. Notice that I did not say it was weak or inferior. I simply said it doesn't match up. There's a difference.
I did realize WK is simply all about the skill and experience of the player himself, and honestly every situation was interesting with it.
Thematically speaking, the WK style fits closely to the "mischievous scoundrel" or "nimble and playful thief" concept, as compared to the "Arrrrrr....blood and gore.. death and carnage... crazy ninja slaughterfest..." type of play style the MI tends to identify with.
In terms of build technicalities, it is rather simple and easy to "mix-it-up" and push the hybridization even further, sort of making it a half-and-half between a WK and a MI, depending on the power choices you decide to stick with.
In a Nutshell: Fast-paced, Quick-Thinking Improvisation and Instinctive Styles of Play
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
A. Inadequate Feats Synergy
To make a long story short, it is entirely clear that the current available Feats were originally intended for Master Infiltrator powers/build synergies, without much consideration into expanding it to fit WK.
Now, I am not sure if the Feats themselves were originally designed this way in D&D 4th, but being a WK has some implications in certain aspects, which demand a compensation in other aspects, to overall make the concept be viable.
The advantages gained to WK through each of the three Paragon Feats are very situational at beast, and not all that noticeable -- as compared to what it does for MI.
Now, I'm not saying that the WK does not rely on stealth at all. A WK is still a rogue, and therefore stealth and its advantages are also a central mechanic to how the class plays it out. However, the weight of advantages the Feats hold, is clearly in favor of MI.
Why this is so, is explained in the following section.
In a Nutshell: Benefit of Feats to WK is severely limited, than compared to MI
B. General Imbalance in Performance to MI
Generally speaking, when you simplify the concept of balance, it boils down to:
1. A is as powerful as B in every way = Balance
2. A is not powerful as B in certain aspects, but is more powerful than B in other aspects = Balance
3. A is not powerful as B in all aspects = Imbalance
The thing is, currently, there's not much in terms of performance -- in ALL aspects -- that WK can offer over MI.
Leaning heavily to the "medium-ranged, hit-and-run" side of the Rogue, WK is understandably weaker in terms of average damage output, be it burst or sustained. Melee is in most cases (for many games) much more powerful than ranged. Everyone understands that.
But then, does the "ranged" aspect of the WK elevate it higher than the MI in terms of defense or survival? Unfortunately, the answer is no.
In terms of self-defense, as mentioned before, stealth is essentially be-all, do-all. For MI builds, maximizing in stealth potency allows higher general damage output as well, since of course, the longer you are alive, the more damage you deal.
Now, generally WK powers and features are sorely lacking in terms of damage, that often you are tempted to offset it any way, any length you can by going with Executioner Feats... which still benefit it only marginally. Go with Saboteur and your survival easily extends higher than the normal MI build, but then your contribution as a supposedly "high-damaging class" becomes pale in comparison to what the MI can achieve in terms of damage with the same Saboteur Feats.
Frankly speaking, the only reason you have high survival rate is because you can fling daggers from 60' away in stealth, and stay there for a long time flinging dagger after dagger... which means to a heavily armored class, you're basically chucking cotton balls during the time he's beating upon your team members.
This becomes ever more apparent in team content -- dungeons or skirmishes. WK struggles with its role. As a rogue -- supposedly the most competent damage dealer of them all -- you can't deal as much damage. You can't kill as much mobs. Your contribution falls below the rest, and even with above-average grade of gear, unless you switch a lot of powers to the more powerful melee ones (which simply means you're giving up on the mobile and instinctive WK style, and just switching back to stationary melee mashing)
Okay. That's cool.
So, WK is relatively lacking in terms of damage... the stealth factor doesn't offer as much advantage to WK than compared to MI... okay, I understand. All it can do is fling weak daggers from a distance (which as a result, adds to survival.. but yeah, still..).
I'm cool with that.
Then....
There must be some redeeming feature in other aspects.. such as utility... or teammate support... or CC... or anything... that makes up for the evidently lacking performance in terms of all the 'traditional strong points of the rogue'
Right?
RIGHT?!?!
Unfortunately, nope. The Feats hardly add any useful amounts of utility to the WK powers given.
The Scoundrel path does not add anything much to any build, and generally much unpopular to people. The Executioner gives up on a lot of stealth, which in turn means a hit to the survival rate for Rogues. It rewards the WK with a marginal improvement in damage, but that's still not too impressive. Go with Saboteur and you're stuck with even weaker damage.
But then, surely, there's gotta be something with those Feats that adds significantly to utility?
No. Really. There isn't any.
Any type of CC the MI can use as well, since none of that relates with the powers/feats given to you by WK. You do have a small stun on Vengeance's Pursuit -- but it only activates under certain conditions. You also have a possibility of an interrupt with the Determined Pursuit Feat ... but honestly, it rarely works out too well when you're busy distracted by the botched Vengeance's Pursuit throw attempt.
Any attempt to increase the utility of the class inevitably results in the style changing considerably to melee style... and even the Dagger Threat class feature... the sorely needed damage boost to your dagger attacks... apply only within 20ft. from the target...
Dudes, what gives??!! What's the point in being medium-range hit&runner when you only hit hard from a range where one approach from a GF or a GWF is gonna simply end your life? :rolleyes:
In a Nutshell: There's no relevant Role that WK does, that MI cannot do better
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
A. Give it Some Flavor in Utility/Powers/Feats
Again, I'm totally cool with low-damage, high-risk types of game play. It just adds that much more to the challenge and fun. Provided, that there's some redeeming feature that goes along with the choice. Conceptually, WK fits well with the concept of a 'trickster' than an 'assassin', so then why not give some useful tricks in turn?
In terms of PvE content, okay, fine, WK will not be the damage dealer. Then there could be all kinds of useful power suggestions like:
Original Power/Feat Suggestions
[Aggro transfer function]
* PvE: Transfer an aggro from an enemy and forcibly lock on to the Rogue for x seconds
* PvP: Switch targeting and lock it on the Rogue for x seconds
[Placate function]
* PvE: Dumps all aggro from the Rogue for x seconds
* PvP: Unable to target the Rogue for x seconds
[Caltrops]
* PvE/PvP; Deals minor damage and y% slow effect at a small z ft. radius for x seconds
[Rapid Dodges]
* shortens dodge distance to 5ft
* 30% less stamina spent when dodging
Suggestions Imported(and adapted) Straight from D&D 4th
* Riposte Strike[at-will/8sec/x3]
- takes defensive posture
- absorbs y% damage
* Acrobatic Strike[at-will/5sec/x2]
- acrobatically jump sideways and fling a knife
- immune to CCs while activated, but not to damage
* Whispered Vengeance[encounter/15sec]
- run speed is increased by y% for x seconds
- while buff is up, all thrown dagger attacks against any enemy that attacked an ally within last 5 seconds
(not yourself) will generate 5% higher crit chance / 10% higher crit severity
* Unbalancing Shot[encounter/5sec]
- throws dagger
- hit target will be slowed for y% movement speed for x seconds
- debuff stacks 2 times
* Fettering Shot[encounter/15sec]
- throws dagger
- Roots target for x seconds
This is just an example of some of the power choices I would have considered. Some of these could be turned into more useful Feats, instead of the generally bland and ineffective ones we have now.
In a Nutshell: Need Powers/Feats that emphasize on Unique utility of Whisperknives, instead of try compete in the Damage category against Master Infiltrators
B. Changes to Existing Powers
Vengeance's Pursuit
- Does not root the player when acivated
- Less activation delay between thrown and melee part of the power
- Very short 'CC immunity' (not to damage) when the melee portion lands on target
Disheartening Strike
** I'd suggest either;
- Let the attack stack for two times, second stack doing only 50% of damage
- Let the attack last longer for 8 seconds with slightly faster tick
Frankly speaking, none of these suggestions are really "thought out". It's simply a sample as a reminder to what the WK should be like in PvP/PvE of Neverwinter.
Again, as long as the class remains competent in at least some DISTINCT, UNIQUE way that is clearly different from other classes, I don't mind lower damage, I don't mind not being able to kill anyone 1vs1, I don't mind its not all that cracked up to be in dungeon raids.
In a Nutshell: Just give the WK SOMETHING, that makes it unique
Cheers to all.
.
- fin.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'