CW vs HR PvP

pers3phone · December 2013

Heyya ranger-types

So I'm a CW. Please endure with me through this post, as I don't have a ranger, and the class being new, I don't know a lot about it, but this is basically one of the reasons I post, to learn.

Lately I'm meeting more and more HRs in PvP. Most of them are pretty easy considering I have decent gear. I have yet to met one that poses to me such a threat as a good GWF or TR - for now.

However.

I have met a few type of highly annoying HRs:

- ranged perma stun/interrupt/root. This is criminal. I can barely cast. I can barely teleport. I'm just stuck with those ultra annoying noises from your arrows. Doesn't seem to do huge damage on me, but it has big spikes with a vorpal and I can end up dead quite fast.
- some range/close distance type of HR. They shot me with stuff, then do some type of closing stealthy move that is pretty confusing and you end up with a lot of HP gone somehow.

Of course there are also those roots as well that are quite annoying, but as long as I can cast at the HR, I'll be pretty fine.

I can bet that you guys would like to have an eternal advantage vs CWs, but maybe some of you also have a CW and would like to share stuff? You know, for fairness sakes

All I'm looking is to learn more about the class and how do you think a CW best counter it in PvP, tips and tricks. Sadly I won't be able to make a HR and even less to level it to 60, so while playing one would obviously be best, for now I'll have to do with words.

Thanks!

mutantdemocracy · December 2013

For ranged HR, the basic idea is to get in range of them and just unload CC. As long as you're paying attention and getting the first hit, you should be fine. I don't know much past that, since I'm a melee based HR.

For melee HR, you just need to have enough health to survive the initial burst. Had this one CW who killed me constantly because he always had 30% of his HP left after I blew all my encounters. If he survived my burst, he'd always just CC me to death.

voltomey · December 2013

I meet a few HR in pvp that go balls to the wall with offensive stats and don't even have 20% dmg resistance they die fast

xtraordinary91 · December 2013

pers3phone wrote: »

Heyya ranger-types

So I'm a CW. Please endure with me through this post, as I don't have a ranger, and the class being new, I don't know a lot about it, but this is basically one of the reasons I post, to learn.

Lately I'm meeting more and more HRs in PvP. Most of them are pretty easy considering I have decent gear. I have yet to met one that poses to me such a threat as a good GWF or TR - for now.

However.

I have met a few type of highly annoying HRs:

- ranged perma stun/interrupt/root. This is criminal. I can barely cast. I can barely teleport. I'm just stuck with those ultra annoying noises from your arrows. Doesn't seem to do huge damage on me, but it has big spikes with a vorpal and I can end up dead quite fast.
- some range/close distance type of HR. They shot me with stuff, then do some type of closing stealthy move that is pretty confusing and you end up with a lot of HP gone somehow.

Of course there are also those roots as well that are quite annoying, but as long as I can cast at the HR, I'll be pretty fine.

I can bet that you guys would like to have an eternal advantage vs CWs, but maybe some of you also have a CW and would like to share stuff? You know, for fairness sakes

All I'm looking is to learn more about the class and how do you think a CW best counter it in PvP, tips and tricks. Sadly I won't be able to make a HR and even less to level it to 60, so while playing one would obviously be best, for now I'll have to do with words.

Thanks!

Hey Pers,

If you are interested I would be more than happy to do some 1v1s with you sometime and explain the different animations and abilities? And tell you what we as HRs can and cannot do. I can also show you some of the basic rotations you will see most HRs in PvP using.

Desi.

drscone · December 2013

This will be an interesting few weeks - always fun to see a new class make it's debut and end up on the receiving end of a growing body of wisdom

I fought an HR yesterday that seemed to be getting on top of his build. He moved very rapidly and erratically with lots of jumping, making him very hard to track. I quite often missed with encounter powers like Repel or Chill Strike.

Additionally, he used a power which I haven't so far come across - some of rooting animation which appeared to slow / hold me. I could tele out of it but I was sent rubberbanding all over the point each time

Really flying about the place. It was pretty difficult to deal with ! Any idea what this was?

hidahayabusa · December 2013

The combination of abilities that you need to keep track as a CW:

a) Hindering shot. Ranged. Applies roots to you, that get you back to the point you've been hit. The ability has 3 charges and it's the best ranged ability available.
b) Constricting Shot: Ranged. This is somehow peculiar. The initial shot does nothing but damage. After 3 seconds you will be stunned (roots around your toon). Then after 3 more seconds this will happen again.

With both of them in you, you'll have a hard time casting and moving around.

Then at melee:

Fox Shift is the bread and butter melee. It feels like the Bloodbath of rogues, the HR gains an immunity icon for 1 sec while damaging you in 3 consecutive slashes. It's capable of nearly one shotting you. The rest of the abilities are just damage and Hindering shot's melee version re-apply roots. Aimed Strike is the forward slash ability, which appiles a huge bleed (ticking 1400/2000 per second) for quite sometime although the initial damage is bad.

Dailies: Forest Ghost. The HR gets in stealth and the most cheesy combo is using it with Stormstep action for multiple Fox Shifts. The speed is increased when in stealth so when you see it Telly away or get a Shard in front of you. If the HR connects you are dead most of the times.

Disrupting Shot is another daily costing 25% of the bar, and with a 6-7 secs CD that dazes for 1-2 secs.

That's the arsenal an HR has against CW.

Edit: The best build I've seen in PvP uses Lone Wolf/Stormstep, so if you see anyone alone and at range he will have a bonus 25% mitigation, so don't just go Icy Knife on him.

shadow5930 · December 2013

There are a few abilities that have the strong root set.

Hindering shot is the low level one that has weak roots, it gives a 20' reach and doesn't really rubber-band back.
Hindering strike, the melee form, is a strong roots, it gives about 5' and does snap you back hard.

Binding shot is a strong roots shot that can also chain to others. It's at range, but can still lock down where you can go.
Not sure on the strike, as I don't use it myself.

The third main one I know about is... err.. at work, don't remember the name.

Basically, if a bunch of vines tangle up about you? That's the shot. It can do it up to 3 times at rank 3, and will be 3 seconds apart. A ranged HR that knows the timing will hit you with that, then start up aimed shot, as your counter or stop will then get interrupted by it and allow them to hit you.

Not sure if it'll help, but that's at least some of the things to watch for. Weak roots is the one that slows you down, strong will rubber-band you back. It's a nice setup for the HR.

hidahayabusa · December 2013

The best part of HR is using all these to make the opponent come towards him to avoid ranged attacks, only to notice that he is specced in Combat and melt you down with the Master of Combat procs.

shadow5930 · December 2013

I'm thinking about swapping aimed shot out with split shot when in PVP. Even without the ranged stuff, it can hit rather nicely. That'll make them think I'm ranged spec and then I unload on them in melee.

hidahayabusa · December 2013

Nothing like Aimed Strikes DoT. Also the range is quite big for melee. Feels like a Flourish.

shadow5930 · December 2013

That's true. Especially people who spaz out in the strong roots and bounce all over, hit them with the dot once or twice before root breaks, then follow up with boar knock down > fox shift. So many potentials! XD

rabbinicus · December 2013

hidahayabusa wrote: »

The best part of HR is using all these to make the opponent come towards him to avoid ranged attacks, only to notice that he is specced in Combat and melt you down with the Master of Combat procs.

Heh, yeah. That's kind of funny.

drscone · December 2013

shadow5930 wrote: »

That's true. Especially people who spaz out in the strong roots and bounce all over, hit them with the dot once or twice before root breaks, then follow up with boar knock down > fox shift. So many potentials! XD

Sounds like me

Hindering roots or Hindering strike or perhaps both at times. I guess the technique is to suck it up and stay put. Must have been funny to watch anyway.

pers3phone · December 2013

Thanks a lot, keep it coming

Very useful.

Looks like the stuff that annoyed me most are Constricting Shot (combined with some other interrupts makes up for a hugely annoying interruption-fest). Fox Shift/Forest Ghost must be the "stealth closer" that took a lot of my health away, this one is quite confusing, as you would usually think HRs are ranged creatures, so it's not too worrying when they get close, but yeah, not true

I had been shot for 20K+ damage from afar mostly, luckily these days potions, artifacts and soulforge are giving my CW a bit of breathing room.

xtraordinary91 wrote: »

Hey Pers,

If you are interested I would be more than happy to do some 1v1s with you sometime and explain the different animations and abilities? And tell you what we as HRs can and cannot do. I can also show you some of the basic rotations you will see most HRs in PvP using.

Desi.

Sure, we should do this one time. I need to understand the animations of course so at least I can try to blink, although to be honest, lately I started to just facetank many opponents for the sole reason that my ping increased from 170 or so to 300-500 after last patches

So whenever I think I have avoided something and it all looks fine, I'm rubberbanded back in place in a choke/stun etc. Very, very bad $:\$

xtraordinary91 · December 2013

pers3phone wrote: »

Thanks a lot, keep it coming Very useful.

Looks like the stuff that annoyed me most are Constricting Shot (combined with some other interrupts makes up for a hugely annoying interruption-fest). Fox Shift/Forest Ghost must be the "stealth closer" that took a lot of my health away, this one is quite confusing, as you would usually think HRs are ranged creatures, so it's not too worrying when they get close, but yeah, not true

I had been shot for 20K+ damage from afar mostly, luckily these days potions, artifacts and soulforge are giving my CW a bit of breathing room.

Sure, we should do this one time. I need to understand the animations of course so at least I can try to blink, although to be honest, lately I started to just facetank many opponents for the sole reason that my ping increased from 170 or so to 300-500 after last patches So whenever I think I have avoided something and it all looks fine, I'm rubberbanded back in place in a choke/stun etc. Very, very bad $:\$

No stress. Just hit me up if you see me online. (Haven't seen Deadlift in awhile. MIA?)

Also for those playing Melee rangers like myself.

I am currently running Aimed Shot / Split shot as my at wills - You can actually apply Aimed Strikes Bleed whilst in the Fox shift animation. I usually find the combination of Marauders Rush -> Boar Rush -> Fox Shift -> Aimed Strike -> Tab -> Split shot once handles all that I need.

It is also rather nice to still be able to drop 15k+ Aimed shots on people when you are melee specced. Positioning of course being key.

Also - Seriously. Look into lifesteal.

I might film a pug match tonight and throw that up.

dkcandy · December 2013

xtraordinary91 wrote: »

Also - Seriously. Look into lifesteal.

I might film a pug match tonight and throw that up.

Actually Double Dip Regen & Life steal 10+% each. /w 30k+ HP.

xtraordinary91 · December 2013

dkcandy wrote: »

Actually Double Dip Regen & Life steal 10+% each. /w 30k+ HP.

I thought that was mandatory.

Currently sitting at 10% Regen and 11.9% Lifesteal myself. Only pushing 29k HP though. Thats what I get for rolling a Woodelf for more crit though.

slushpsycho · December 2013

voltomey wrote: »

I meet a few HR in pvp that go balls to the wall with offensive stats and don't even have 20% dmg resistance they die fast

Those HR are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...

dkcandy · December 2013

xtraordinary91 wrote: »

I thought that was mandatory.

Currently sitting at 10% Regen and 11.9% Lifesteal myself. Only pushing 29k HP though. Thats what I get for rolling a Woodelf for more crit though.

It's so nice having high LS & Regen.

xtraordinary91 · December 2013

dkcandy wrote: »

It's so nice having high LS & Regen.

Its kind of broken

linknigri · December 2013

Bro CW have the whole advantage against every type of HR you just need to learn how to fight it, I play both classes, as long as the CW do not get desperate and do not try to run, u will kill the HR. Their CC are a incomparable worst then CW CC, U can still cast, all u need to do is know when to do so and how to dodge whyle in the root. Also u have more damage assuming both use the same gear, and both endures preatty mutch the same damage, the melle HR will endure a little more then u do, but nevertheless CW still have the advantage. U just need to keep an eye on the HR and at what he is doing in the fight.

Ranged HR: U have more damage, as long as u keep him at your range and do not let he use his aimed shot on u, witch is preaty easy, u will win. If he desapears, he will try to use his aimed shot, so, if u are really distant from him, run back, or learn the time he spent to cast it and dodge, normaly u will be ok in about 1,5 sec, its easier than it looks.

Melle HR: This one is another easy batle assuming u wont be desperate just because he is in your face. They still do less damage then u do, and his survivability is pathetic, do not try to run and do not waste your dodges and u will be ok. If u save one dodge for when he is using his fox shift u won the fight.

HR is an underpowered class, all they do right is to prevent people from running away, as long as u face him and have him at your range u won, and that is easy to do with the CW. If u want to know a little more about how underpowered the HR is, read my post: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?552891-Ranger-and-the-Baiacu-effect!-Read-before-making-a-ranger

voltomey · December 2013

linknigri wrote: »

Bro CW have the whole advantage against every type of HR you just need to learn how to fight it, I play both classes, as long as the CW do not get desperate and do not try to run, u will kill the HR. Their CC are a incomparable worst then CW CC, U can still cast, all u need to do is know when to do so and how to dodge whyle in the root. Also u have more damage assuming both use the same gear, and both endures preatty mutch the same damage, the melle HR will endure a little more then u do, but nevertheless CW still have the advantage. U just need to keep an eye on the HR and at what he is doing in the fight.

Ranged HR: U have more damage, as long as u keep him at your range and do not let he use his aimed shot on u, witch is preaty easy, u will win. If he desapears, he will try to use his aimed shot, so, if u are really distant from him, run back, or learn the time he spent to cast it and dodge, normaly u will be ok in about 1,5 sec, its easier than it looks.

Melle HR: This one is another easy batle assuming u wont be desperate just because he is in your face. They still do less damage then u do, and his survivability is pathetic, do not try to run and do not waste your dodges and u will be ok. If u save one dodge for when he is using his fox shift u won the fight.

HR is an underpowered class, all they do right is to prevent people from running away, as long as u face him and have him at your range u won, and that is easy to do with the CW. If u want to know a little more about how underpowered the HR is, read my post: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?552891-Ranger-and-the-Baiacu-effect!-Read-before-making-a-ranger

If your saying face tanking a melee ranger is ok let me tell you its not. Not about having more dmg then a person its about how much hp he has over you. Melee ranger have about minimum 30k hp 45% dmg resistance a minimum of 30% deflection 10% regen and Lifesteal your not counting other variable such as boons and enchants if its carrying elven battle he will shred you

thorny911 · December 2013

Pers, the shifty stealth jump to you is Marauders (their back sprint) in melee form (think deftstrike on TR). Veteran PvP HR's will ALL be melee as it is currently broken and you can be bursted by multiple encounters (same one 3 times in 6 seconds, not to mention multiple dailies).

Once they Fix (nerf) or othewise change the HR it will be interesting to see where they land. Unless I get bursted on my CW by HR's using broken mechanics I almost always win.

With that said both Constricting (vines) and Strong Roots will hinder your ability to get away from other classes. HR's are best when controlling the battlefield and bursting down currently.

caexar · December 2013

A good cw is the bane of every ranger as its strength is where the rangers greatest weakness lies: control powers. All things being equal, a cw will triumph over the ranger most of the time. The hardest fights my ranger has are against cw who know what they're doing.
You guys are also a little ahead of yourselves with threads like this as the ranger will get changed more I promise particularly rooting effects. Keep this in mind

voltomey · December 2013

Gawsh my english is poor but melee ranger are ten times more resilient than their ranged counterparts i have survived 2 ice knife to the face on MY HR fighting against a single CW 1v1 is a cake walk.

thorny911 wrote: »

Pers, the shifty stealth jump to you is Marauders (their back sprint) in melee form (think deftstrike on TR). Veteran PvP HR's will ALL be melee as it is currently broken and you can be bursted by multiple encounters (same one 3 times in 6 seconds, not to mention multiple dailies).

Once they Fix (nerf) or othewise change the HR it will be interesting to see where they land. Unless I get bursted on my CW by HR's using broken mechanics I almost always win.

With that said both Constricting (vines) and Strong Roots will hinder your ability to get away from other classes. HR's are best when controlling the battlefield and bursting down currently.

Melee is not broken are class feature is and you dont even need that trick to lay wast to any one in PvP

shadow5930 · December 2013

I only use that trick when people try to pile into me 2+ vs 1. Otherwise like V said, don't need it. Boar rush is a prone and fox on it's own is a nice hit. clearing the ground for hard pressure, aimed shot to DoT them and you can take them down. Avoid what they may do while in the mix up. If you want to mess with them, you pop ranged, maurader's escape, hit boar skin, fox cunning, tab melee, rush em again. throws them off as they suddenly don't have a target, right up until you're in their face again. I tend to throw disrupting shot in there now and then too, space out their return as well as reduce cool down by 3sec. If something lives through that cycle, you're back in their face with boar charge again.

hidahayabusa · December 2013

There is a plan against CWs but against anyone that knows what he is doing, it's hopeless. The only way to face them is to time your shifts so good, that you go around Entangling/Chill and time your Fox exactly when Constricting procs.

So an HR will need Fox/Constricting/Hindering to even get close to CW while making good use of Disrupting shot. My only kills against good CWs went like that:

1) Shift their ET
2) Throw a constricting
3) Shift towards them
4) Hindering
5) If I am lucky last proc of constricting gets them in range for Fox+Aimed Strike while on animation

Of course, that ideal situation and most times I am stopped by their friend that free casts into me like a training dummy.

Oh and you have no chance without Lone Wolf.

hidahayabusa · December 2013

voltomey wrote: »

if its carrying elven battle he will shred you

I doubt that Elven battle does anything as far as the CW matchup is concerned (or any matchup is concerned other than other HRs). 90% of CC are prones.

voltomey · December 2013

hidahayabusa wrote: »

I doubt that Elven battle does anything as far as the CW matchup is concerned (or any matchup is concerned other than other HRs). 90% of CC are prones.

This was strictly during the CW argument the enchant limits the duration of entangle which is the most dangerous CC to get caught in vs a CW at least for me. Any DoT can is countered by regen and pots having Lone wolf give you 20% more mitigation also make the fight vs CW easier atm i have 35% dmg resistance now so being given 20% more and if you have negation over elven and boars 30% more on top it only make's the fight easier. Any way there are other variables to consider also

caexar · December 2013

voltomey wrote: »

Gawsh my english is poor but melee ranger are ten times more resilient than their ranged counterparts i have survived 2 ice knife to the face on MY HR fighting against a single CW 1v1 is a cake walk.

Melee is not broken are class feature is and you dont even need that trick to lay wast to any one in PvP

Clearly then you both misread my posts about all things being equal and you also most likely haven't fought against a cw who knows what he's doing. Try going up against guys like Kaos or Decidus. I fought against Kaos a few days ago in a match and it was no cakewalk like you are claiming. Fight against someone like that and you will find yourself getting ran over repeatedly by avalanche, choked and frozen without getting anywhere near them.
Big differences between those who know and those who don't.

hrodvalder · December 2013

My 2 Cent's worth: If you know your rotations as a CW, a class without high survivability will always die fast. And since HR doesn't have to have high survivability, it's not gonna be easy.

I had this one encounter where my most kills were this one HR

Mean, but he got the first shot but idk if he/she didn't know her class (GS was about the same as mine, over 11K) but I managed to get one EF into him/her and after that... well, we lost the round but she kept on wanting a 1v1 so at least I stacked some kills

A whole different story against 2 HR. Not a chance, to much CC and too many angles.

CW vs HR PvP

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