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Is it just me, or does the GF seem unnecessary/under powered?
lvl99looter
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 682 Arc User
I know our role is to be the punching bag, and PWE has made that very clear with all the new gear content they've been releasing. But here's what I don't understand. My GWF guildy has the new GF paragon path, and he's able to hit 50k crits with Frontline, and 100k crits Indomitable Strength with proper debuffs going of course. He ONLY has 5k power, GFs can stack far more power than that, and yet the only way we can crit that high is with Villan's Menace, Knights Challenge, Mark, Tide of Iron, the debuffs, and Anvil of Doom. All those encounters.... Honestly, GWFs don't deserve/need Frontline & Threatening Rush. Especially while they're still able to have unstoppable.
Not only can they hit much much harder than us, but they can SPAM threatening Rush over & over, and over, until we hit them back. Which gives them determination to use unstoppable, plus their encounters will be back. I saw a thread not to long ago, that said what's the point in the GFs. I'm starting to understand what that thread means. GWFs can out tank us, out DPS us, hold aggro, can stack over 38k HP, and have better all around stats if spec'd correctly. They really don't have to stack ArP due to their constitution. And it's not that hard to spec them to be the ultimate machine.
Another thing is.... Why can rangers still root GFs when we use Villan's Menace? We're suppose to be immune to ALL forms of CC...
The tactic to beat GWFs in PvP used to be very simple, and yet still challenging and FUN!! Now, it's just..........
.....Is it just me that feels this way?....
(Updated)
I did all that grinding just to find out the new Dread gear isn't worth it. The set bonus isn't of much use, there's no power. GFs don't have enough DPS for lifesteal to be effective. Plus our MOST important AoE encounter (Enforced Threat & Frontline) aren't that good. Enforced Threat has a 5 mob hit cap. Frontline's AP generation was NERFED hardcore. So now that means less fighters recovery, to keep us alive while being the punching bag. Soulforge is no longer good, because when we "die" we lose the aggro. Meaning we have to recollect it ALL over again. We're suppose to be the "TANK" yet we can still get controlled very easily. Would be nice to have unstoppable/be unstoppable as a REAL TANK should. Enforced Threat should give us 100% aggro without having to hit anything.
Devs claim dungeons can be beaten with low recommended GS, but won't give new players hints on how to conquer them. So this promotes players to exploit glitches. The new enchant system burns up AD. It's MUUUUCCCHHH harder to get a RARE Mark of Power than it is to get a EPIC.... *Sigh*
Artifacts bring a MAJOR unbalance to PvP. Speaking of PvP, that's the ONLY reason why I keep playing the game. PvP is the REASON why I do PvE. But PvP is no longer fun anymore =/... Ranger's Vines can CC GFs even through Villan's Menace, I swear they can dodge like 4-6 times lol. GWFs are very difficult to kill now. Not to mention they can SPAM Threatening Rush, have 4 CC encounters, plus an Anti-CC... There's a TR build that's going around that makes it VERY difficult for GFs in PvP. I'm not saying GFs shouldn't have enemy classes that are our weakness. But we are incredibility under powered in certain aspects. And honestly, there is no real need for GFs in PvE =/... All you need for PvE are CWs and DCs. All you need for PvP are GWFs, CWs, TRs, and DCs, and maybe HRs. Not to mention the HORRIBLE rubber band lags lately.
It hurts to say this, but... Guardian Fighters suck =/...
Not only can they hit much much harder than us, but they can SPAM threatening Rush over & over, and over, until we hit them back. Which gives them determination to use unstoppable, plus their encounters will be back. I saw a thread not to long ago, that said what's the point in the GFs. I'm starting to understand what that thread means. GWFs can out tank us, out DPS us, hold aggro, can stack over 38k HP, and have better all around stats if spec'd correctly. They really don't have to stack ArP due to their constitution. And it's not that hard to spec them to be the ultimate machine.
Another thing is.... Why can rangers still root GFs when we use Villan's Menace? We're suppose to be immune to ALL forms of CC...
The tactic to beat GWFs in PvP used to be very simple, and yet still challenging and FUN!! Now, it's just..........
.....Is it just me that feels this way?....
(Updated)
I did all that grinding just to find out the new Dread gear isn't worth it. The set bonus isn't of much use, there's no power. GFs don't have enough DPS for lifesteal to be effective. Plus our MOST important AoE encounter (Enforced Threat & Frontline) aren't that good. Enforced Threat has a 5 mob hit cap. Frontline's AP generation was NERFED hardcore. So now that means less fighters recovery, to keep us alive while being the punching bag. Soulforge is no longer good, because when we "die" we lose the aggro. Meaning we have to recollect it ALL over again. We're suppose to be the "TANK" yet we can still get controlled very easily. Would be nice to have unstoppable/be unstoppable as a REAL TANK should. Enforced Threat should give us 100% aggro without having to hit anything.
Devs claim dungeons can be beaten with low recommended GS, but won't give new players hints on how to conquer them. So this promotes players to exploit glitches. The new enchant system burns up AD. It's MUUUUCCCHHH harder to get a RARE Mark of Power than it is to get a EPIC.... *Sigh*
Artifacts bring a MAJOR unbalance to PvP. Speaking of PvP, that's the ONLY reason why I keep playing the game. PvP is the REASON why I do PvE. But PvP is no longer fun anymore =/... Ranger's Vines can CC GFs even through Villan's Menace, I swear they can dodge like 4-6 times lol. GWFs are very difficult to kill now. Not to mention they can SPAM Threatening Rush, have 4 CC encounters, plus an Anti-CC... There's a TR build that's going around that makes it VERY difficult for GFs in PvP. I'm not saying GFs shouldn't have enemy classes that are our weakness. But we are incredibility under powered in certain aspects. And honestly, there is no real need for GFs in PvE =/... All you need for PvE are CWs and DCs. All you need for PvP are GWFs, CWs, TRs, and DCs, and maybe HRs. Not to mention the HORRIBLE rubber band lags lately.
It hurts to say this, but... Guardian Fighters suck =/...
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Comments
Personally I believe unstoppable needs to be changed. Recently made a threat about some abilities via a pvp standpoint I felt had issues, and my suggestion was focusing the GWF into more of a dmg role then a all around CC/Dmg/tanky class who does a bit too well at all 3. Changing Unstoppable into say Berserk, having it keep CC immunity and gain /Life steal/Dmg, but lose the huge def boost+ Temp HP Might be a step in the right direction. More dmg, but also making a GWF more squishy.
Or Cryptic could go the easy way out and simply add CD's to threatening rush, and increasing the CD for unstoppable
The GWF is the offtank its supposed to be. they are about balanced now.
What you GF need is not the gwf nerfed...
...but a pve-focussed push to your own class.
Your problem is, that your aggro generators consume the skill slots you need for dealing damage and vice versa...
...but since the game is currently pure dps-race + glitching bosses like valindra there is no place atm for any of us melees.
But the class design of an offtank like the gwf is supposed to be the best duelist that no other class should be able to compete with in a direct stationary 1 on 1 fight in pvp - since its a balanced mix of blatant dps and unsquiggled durability.
On the other hand they are and should be an anti-support class: They bring in nothing but their very own value without any amplification of others.
The GF is imho a support class and therefor must be less of a duelist since it amplifies their mates.
The GWFs should definitely have more AoE DPS than the tank, but not CC. CC should be left to the CONTROL Wizard and the Tank. In PvP, GWFs having Frontline, Roar, Takedown, Indomitable Strength, AND Unstoppable is OP-CC. Not to mention they can have 1k+ regen, lifesteal, 38K+ HP with really good crit chance.
Many may not realize right now GF require much more skill to be effective, and even when u can play a GF effectively he is still outclassed by GWF. This goes PVP or PVE.
And no up until today I have not met more than 5 GF I would say good through my PVP or PVE experience. So yeah imagine all those GF out there trying hard and still fail.
The new set is **** unless your goal is pure PVE. Then perhaps u can make the stat work, but even a exp GF in PVE are **** most of the time, and PVE wise best set goes to Knight Captain without saying, so don't even bother going VT waste of time for GF.
GWF can't peel nearly as hard as a GF can. I'd know, since I play both of them.
My GF uses Knight's Valor, which turns her punching bag capabilities into a HUGE asset. 50% damage reduction for your entire squishy team is not something you should ignore.
Cryptic is notoriously bad at balancing gear. I have the suspicion that they randomly assign someone who doesn't even play the game to assign them stats or throws darts at a board with stats listed on it.
And then you die because two of your teammate just walk into red and since you die all aggro goes to your dps/DC and kill them within 5sec. Yeah that is what we call a wipe.
In some T2 you might find success with Knight's Valor if your team actually dodge red, otherwise popping KV is just a quick way to end your life. And no the more squishy your team the less you should use KV
I played plenty of T2 content and even CN with bad players as my GF. Knight Valor is so good, I was able to outright carry them through content they shouldn't be able to get through. I'm talking about slow TRs who'd live through about 5 seconds of the health steal from the third boss of CN. This is all while always being the last to die, if I died at all. I'm not exaggerating this.
If you can't properly use KV and live through it, you're just not building tanky enough.
You just haven't met the real bad players yet.
I have 32k HP and 9% regen hence 46% DR and 20% deflect, oh and like 5% lifesteal if that even matter. I pop like cherry when 2 of my teammate took a red, because that does instant 20k+ dmg in average. I would like to know how more tanky your toon is?
And no you will never live through a CN if you team is bad, u will be the first one to die if you use KV.
As for nerfing Unstoppable, sure lets once again nerf the sole class defining skill. As it now, Unstoppable isn't really unstoppable. I cant count the number of times its been canceled after trying to fire it off from something as simple as a knock back. Believe it or not unstoppable has to go through its full animation before its in full effect, until that animation is done you can actually stop it from being used. Not to mention the other downsides to this supposedly OP class like the fact that most of our skills are easily dodged thanks to long animations or the fact that unlike other classes our skills seemed to stop once we're killed. Not like the CW whos ice knife will still hit you full force after they've died. Also we seem to have the only daily (crescendo) that can be dodged even while its hitting you. I've watched CWs, TRs, HR, all dodge the last hit which is the biggest reason to use crescendo in the first place.
Now as far as using the GFs path, I cant say, im a destroyer build and don't care enough about PvP to change anything. Personally, from the moment is was announced I felt that the paragon swap between GFs and GWFs was a slap in the face and a bit lazy. But like I said in the beginning, you should stop asking for nerfs to other classes and start asking for buffs.
Yeah seems PWE goes in phasing trying to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off each class equally.
My guess on the new Dread armor was to give more options for BUILDS. Combining that LS armor w/ Bloodtheft, LifeDrinker and Savage Enchants could be a Synergy Build like no other. But I am a ReGen man myself
Play: PILLAGER* of the DEAD! By: Hempy NW-DNV3R9B4J
~HEMPY'S CRIT-GEN GUARDIAN FIGHTER BUILD~
Devs claim dungeons can be beaten with low recommended GS, but won't give new players hints on how to conquer them. So this promotes players to exploit glitches. The new enchant system burns up AD. It's MUUUUCCCHHH harder to get a RARE Mark of Power than it is to get a EPIC.... *Sigh*
Artifacts bring a MAJOR unbalance to PvP. Speaking of PvP, that's the ONLY reason why I keep playing the game. PvP is the REASON why I do PvE. But PvP is no longer fun anymore =/... Ranger's Vines can CC GFs even through Villan's Menace, I swear they can dodge like 4-6 times lol. GWFs are very difficult to kill now. Not to mention they can SPAM Threatening Rush, have 4 CC encounters, plus an Anti-CC... There's a TR build that's going around that makes it VERY difficult for GFs in PvP. I'm not saying GFs shouldn't have enemy classes that are our weakness. But we are incredibility under powered in certain aspects. And honestly, there is no real need for GFs in PvE =/... All you need for PvE are CWs and DCs. All you need for PvP are GWFs, CWs, TRs, and DCs, and maybe HRs. Not to mention the HORRIBLE rubber band lags lately.
It hurts to say this, but... Guardian Fighters suck =/...
It'll get sorted out Ant, no worries bruh. It might take a while but something will happen. Look at the forums, so many GFs *****ing will get attention. More GF posts on these forums then any other class. We are important to the game. Keep faith broman
Play: PILLAGER* of the DEAD! By: Hempy NW-DNV3R9B4J
~HEMPY'S CRIT-GEN GUARDIAN FIGHTER BUILD~
I haven't faced bads? I joined an Epic Temple of the Spider where our TR and CW simply didn't deal damage to the Spider Queen, because they were low GS first timers to it and didn't know what encounters to use. I kept us alive for a full 45 minutes before we decided we just weren't going to be able to deal more damage than she could heal.
I've pulled a lot of stuff off of my GF since I felt like bolstering up my GWF lately, but my GF had around 48% DR, 30% deflect, and 31k HP.
I use Tactician feats with Enhanced Mark, Ferocious Reaction, Enforced Threat, Knight's Valor, and Into the Fray. My main daily for higher content was Fighter's Recovery, while I used Supremacy of Steel on easier content. I'd also swap out Ferocious Reaction for Combat Superiority.
The idea was to use Knight's Valor to clutch save allies I felt were going to get hit hard, then use my block to absorb the damage. I'd use Enforced Threat to pull the heavy hitters off my allies when KV was down. With the massive AP generation I got, I could have Fighter's Recovery up almost 100% of the time while fighting, which allowed me to live stupid long amounts of time.
With the cross paragons of gf/gwf they need to buff gf without buffing gwf. An easy fix would be buffing tab mark and the at wills while shield blocking. Tab mark could either be a forced taunt, or threat plus dot until target attacks gf. Something like 10% of gfs max hp over 5 secs (so 2.5-3.5k dmg over 5 sec) or until mob attacks gf. Tying to hp is best because tying it to power further empowers conq over tact/prot.
At wills: stab should have a 120 degree arc in front of gf with no target cap and do 50% more dmg. Shield bash should restore twice as much guard and increase threat. Also fix kb/cc going through shield block.
Basically make gf class feature better. Let them throw out at will threat to everything they can tab. Let them hit everything they just aggrod for enough dmg to keep it interested in them, and let them restore enough guard to actually block the attacks.
Thats mostly for pve but tab mark dot would be interesting in pvp, since mark has like 100ft range.
When u use KV there is nothing u can outplay once your teammate walk into red your are bound to take those dmg unless u block, so you will die.
The idea of having a bad team is they walk into red and so you would be instajibbed. There is nothing to talk about since my GF are just as tanky as yours when those big hit comes you gonna do nothing but die.
Do you even run any SP / MC / CN ? Cause you will get jibbed 24/7 if u run KV, pre MOD 2 if u roll 3 cw u might live due to insane CC they provide, but now u just gonna die...
And FYI bad group won't even make it to the TOS last boss.
Secondly: recent class changes, especially the addition of Iron Vanguard to GWF, have finally given us a threat generator. We didn't need threatening rush or frontline surge to make us a better tank, but we did need threat generation. I'm a fan of the changes, but not the fact that fighters in general got kind of short-changed with the last update.
But I don't doubt that, by giving GWF actual threat generation, this has made the argument against tank GWF's less effective. Yes, we can tank as rediculously as a GF.
I see two real issues here. The first is the oldest, and involves dungeon and pve design: damage is king. Wide open maps, plenty of mobs, high hp totals with low resistances, limited CC immunity design, no need to protect teammates, and limited AI function: these are the elements that give CW's the advantage and have made GF's and GWF's (the only tanks) to be mostly useless.
To solve this issue, tighter spaces, AI having different roles and preferred targets, and more creative battlefield layout will help give melee classes, and tanks, the necessary 'need' in dungeon parties. We know they are retouching newbie zones, so retouching dungeons isn't too much of a stretch.
The second issue is that the developers built GWF's at all. Players like myself expected a barbarian. So Cryptic could rewrite GWF completely, as the op suggested, or they could simply add a proper barbarian class. There will still be the redundancy of tanks in the GWF/GF class, but that redundancy I feel is a good thing (supports two completely different playstyles for the same role ... the problem with that being the role itself is unnecessary, not the classes).
Last but not least: synergy. GWF, right now, with the functions of regen, ehp, lifesteal, artifacts, stones, armor set bonuses, etc: we have a TON of synergy. It's not that GWF's need nerfed, though. GF's need a walk over to make sure their synergy is just as potent.
Melee has and will always be a red-headed stepchild to ranged. Having immense power at that limited range is part of the lure. Time to make sure GF's have that.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Exactly! gwf was bad when we did? fill the bag of devs to improve the class and debating for months here on alternatives. I saw several suggestions our rebounding in Module 2.
anyway, I had a feeling that with the constraint of the cw, the gf would be necessary, mainly because the ranger that theoretically would not be able to deal with the threat that he generates. if this is not happening, then there was a miscalculation, and not grudgingly or favoritism.
I do feel that GF survivablity is laughable compared to a GWF however. I was tanking reds and malabog with ease with my GWF (tried sentinel) using dps gear (so 2k def, 1.2k deflect) and around 29k hp, my gwf was tanking easier than my GF with half his survival stats, (and held agro because i was using per offense)
But as it stands now, i do feel GFs pretty balanced, they can do their job as it is. Knights valor i do like but ive taken hits of 50k before (lol what). So i never use it now, though i may try it more often with the soulforge changes.
They need to make content easier with a GF than without, because currently its hard to name many bosses that work better with a GF. Especially when they design the newer ones like malabog end-boss to ignore agro/threat, and valindra which doesnt seem to require any setup.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
If you put all that durability stuff into your GWF build it will end up dealing way less dmg than the common GF in pve and pvp. There are GWF that are more durable than a GF can become and there are GWF that are dealing more dmg than a GF can - both is true - BUT not at the same time in one build.
I am under the impression that you mix up the offensive and defensive potential of the GWF and now think that those GWF that slaughter you are the same GWF that seem impossible to kill. But that is not true. An offensive destroyer GWF is relatively squishy and a defensive sentinel GWF with 38k+ HP (and I have to admit, I have to trust you that this is even possible) will be quite lame in dealing damage.
How can you explain that ?
All gwf deal more damage than a GF can. some deal 3x as much some deal 10x as much depending on gear/build but a GWF has to be afk to get out damaged by a GF.
Forums aren't representative of total game population. Forum population is usually
1. Angry players rage quiting
2. The most invested dedicated players
Number 2 means that they're going to be for the most part power gamers that can probably complete most content no matter what.
Oh yeah, some food for thought. I did a test with my GF on the Preview server for Module 2 before it went live and had gotten my deflect to like 33%+, Defense to 49.7%, and critical to 20%+. The result of 2-3 hours of just running around, killing mobs, checking logs, etc, gives me the suspicion that the stats are unreliable. In fact, deflect appeared to work 1 out of every 10-15 hits. Critical was more jumpy than the X-COM RNG. Defense? I can't even tell if it actually works and I assume it doesn't. Also, the stat cap on the GF seem to be a lot lower than most of the other classes. Uh, at least Regeneration works as intended. And from watching my wife play, who runs around as Dawnia Brae, I suspect even the chances of refining and everything else might be a little dishonest. She failed 15 times using her nature kit at 75% one time and used about 15 wards trying refine at 40%. So you tell me if this is fuzzy math? I'm not saying the game is bad because it isn't, but there are obvious issues that aren't being looked at.
So while it might need the equivalent of needing a 13 or higher on a d20 roll for that refine, the rng tends to sometimes throw multiple 1's in a row.
Now to be fair I've also rolled multiple 100's in row in dungeons on loot rolls so it does balance out to an extent.
However, Shadowmantle irritated me a lot. I was content with my place as a tank in just about any dungeon run. But now not only are GWFs OP in PvP with Threatening Rush and Frontline Surge, they also have an easy way to get Mark, which, in combination with their heavy damage, makes them an entirely acceptable tank and, if the player is good, a better one then a GF because of their high damage.
I'm fine with giving GWFs more viability in PvE. I'm not okay with them getting even better at PvP and replacing GFs as a main tank.
Lyssa Nadir - Stormwarden - Archery Hunter Ranger - 60