inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2013
You should play what you want and have fun. Having said that, if you want to be in demand/needed/wanted in groups then no. I have a 13k+ gs geared character of every class except hr and my gf was the first i shelved. Sadly my tr (first character) has joined my gf in uselessville. I havent even bothered to unlock dread spire or do artifact quest on either of them.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
I have played a GF since launch. People used to be so pissed we could block... Now in CN, and rogue can just dodge the wings, and a GF gets blown away, AKA - No longer need a GF for CN. In fact, I'd bet my life that 90-95% of guilds run a CW in the old place a GF used to have. I'm not saying that GF's don't get groups, I have a good guild and I get groups... But you don't "need" one. A well geared GWF is about 10x better to have... More HP, more damage, faster, they get threat now, I mean c'mon. Make'em durable, but a GF should be the "tank"... Oh we can do burst damage in pvp, cry about it lol. With all the regen now, doesn't really matter, we are even getting taken out of pvp slowly.
I don't like nerfs.. I think they lead to more *****ing. But you guys need to realize, with the dynamic of this game, you'll never have a true tank.. You just won't. The dev's don't know how to make a fight that requires one, trust me they have tried, they just can't do it with the 5 man party, and set up they have created. A GF would either need to get some serious party buffs, or more constant damage, OR a 30-40% defense/deflect increase which would say, "Ok, that guy is a ****ing iron plate, he can tank." Then create some more fights that require AGGRO and not Singularities... Figure it out Cryptic.
Last point... Do they really have any idea on gear? The fact that Stalwart was an easy one or two, (I get it, Grand Regent was good for turtles). But we have like 1-2 sets that are even worth it. FIGURE IT OUT. I feel sorry for new GF's who didn't get to play when we could do crazy damage and block in CN... I used to run knight's challenge, and tank the Draco, then crit for around 130-150k max once it was under 25% life... While everyone else cc'd. What is this?! A tank had to fight the and not run around like a little ***** with a mob behind him??
I think it all comes down to the fact that a GF doesn't really have a place. GWF's can do everything we can, but better besides threat. We have one leg up on that. The rest... No point. GF's need a buff, or the dynamics of the game need changed, not to mention gear... At the end of the day, none of this will happen, GWF's will get nerfed, and we'll go back to making CW's and DC's and TR's to get parties lol.
I started playing about a week ago and am about level 50 now. I have always, for the past 10 years, been tanking in MMOs. Ofcourse I therefor rolled a GF Iron Vanguard in Neverwinter. Man, did I make a mistake - to say the least. It doesn't matter what I do, spec, wear: I rarely have any aggro in party runs. I do have the feats that should give +threat, I do run in first, I do use Knights Valor where needed, I do use Enforced threat, my gear is adequate for the level (I also spent some AD for blues), I did read tons of guides on them. All of that is not the issue. the class just does NOT work. Heck, my rank 15 Man At Arms even has more aggro than me when soloing! In dungeons I'm constantly chasing mobs from the one player to the other. But then, some GWF hits some button and magically all the mobs come to him, and they stay there for quite a good while. I have been kicked from the party multiple times for not being able to maintain aggro. It's about DPS they say, well screw that. It cannot work that way. Currently I have gimped DPS just for survivability + maxing threat generation - something which is useless in twofold. For one: threat does not seem to have ANY effect, and without mobs hitting me survivability obviously is useless. Some class.
Man seriously, I'm 36 in age, my IQ is quite above average (am software engineer), I have tanked for about 10 years in various MMOs. I am not stupid, I know how to learn a class in a game, whatever game, whatever class - for simply I will do whatever it takes to be succesful in something. But not this GF in Neverwinter. It's just unbalanced as hell, and the mechanics seem severely broken - much like a 'GF' in real life. Not to mention the countless other issues, bad design decisions besides GF functioning, and maintenance during the weekend during peak hours...........
To make matters worse, I've talked to alot of people about this. In parties, chats, zone chat, and they basically all say the same that has been discussed in the forums here. GF is broken and is therefor not needed. The great majority advises to reroll, to GWF if for tanking, or to DC or CW for other things.
A class is supposed to work, not only proof to be a waste of both money and time. I am very surprised this game was even able to win an award, for it is an unfinnished, and simply a broken and defect product. Everyone is saying the same things about GF, yet they are there, without even stating during character creation: "NOTE: This class is not needed in parties.". For this reason I will not reroll, which is too bad, for in essence the game is great. I stress "in essence", for the final result is just a laughable time-waster with broken mechanics and failing creativty for encounters. I don't think PWE cares though; they already have my Euros. Too bad really, for if the class would just FUNCTION, I would spend more. Guess not.
EDIT: This will not ever change. EVER. You can count on that. If you think that buffing one or two skills will make a change, you're wrong. For simply, it's the core mechanics of the game that need to change for a GF to be effective. This will never happen, for that would result in very high costs and possibly loss of players.
Threat, in Neverwinter, is judged primarily by damage dealt. And damage, in Neverwinter, is king.
The problem with GF (and GWF, too, as the off tank) is that the bosses and mobs do 'avoidable' damage, mostly in aoe form. Meaning dodging and high deflect. Meaning no single opponent to focus on, really. Big red zones to make everyone run around is the name of the game.
In my mind, each major fight would require a single-target punching bag for the boss (if he's focused on the single target, maybe he doesn't do as many AOE's, eh?) and a guy who keeps all the adds pissed off so they don't swarm the punching bag. Everyone else applies their particular skills from the sidelines (read: debuffs and some damage), trying to avoid taking the heat off the punching bag and the chicken kicker.
This seems perfect for a GF/GWF combo. Yes, players should want BOTH tanks in their groups. And instead of the GF being the add kite that they have been (really, the slowest member of the party is kiting?), let them be the boss punching bag, able to take hits even a GWF has to throw up unstoppable to survive, and just shrug them off for the next one.
This requires a change in the way AI is handles. And enough damage output against non-tank classes (less AOE or dodge-capable attacks) to make them want to slow down their damage output and let us work.
Why even have tanks, if the rogue and CW's can just dodge any major attack while still applying insane damage?
Take their defenses away in ONLY these instances (boss battles), and all of a sudden having a dedicated tank and managing aggro becomes more of a concern for 'those other guys who aren't tanks'.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Honestly? Stop running Knight's Valor. That's prolly what your problem is right there. The damage in those dungeons is either not enough to matter or too much for you to Block. Secondly, it's not something that people between 50-60 can tell you are running and should know you are running. It's finally the point where people need to learn to dodge so stop helping them avoid the lesson. Use Frontline to knock down big things, Enforced Threat-Threatening Rush to get agro, and something situational (Lunging Strike-Bull Charge.. or ITF).
Secondly, no one should be kicking people at level 50 unless they AFK. While it is the section of the game where people finally need to be able to play their class, no one should be kicked if they are honestly trying and willing to listen to advice.
Thirdly, GWF are off-tank/DPSers. They should never be crying about having agro. If they do, tell them to take their sword and stick the add with the pointy end.
And don't give up on being a good GF. My main is a Cleric, and it doesn't matter how good or how well geared a GWF is... when I run MC or VT, an average GF survives longer and tanks better. The only primary difference is that a GWF can take a slot from having 3 CWs if you have a GF... and they are very good with Slam and very good at sprinting.
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arriMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
edited December 2013
I'm really not seeing this whole "it's so hard to keep aggro as a GF!" thing. All I literally have to do is mark an enemy and ht them with cleave ONCE and they're on me for the rest of the fight. Who knows, maybe the game does a complete 180 at the very endgame of the endgame and suddenly GFs are useless, but as of right now: No, I don't feel useless. Sure, a GWF does more damage than me, but guess what? GWFs are a damage dealing class while GFs aren't. I know this is an action MMO so the idea that you MUST do the most damage ever or be useless is kind of a thing, but there really is more to the game than damage..
I'm also a DPS/Hybrid specced GF, and I haven't had any issues keeping myself alive in single target or AoE encounters. It's all about knowing your strengths and weaknesses and how to avoid things, which is sadly a skill many people don't seem to have these days.
I'm really not seeing this whole "it's so hard to keep aggro as a GF!" thing. All I literally have to do is mark an enemy and ht them with cleave ONCE and they're on me for the rest of the fight. Who knows, maybe the game does a complete 180 at the very endgame of the endgame and suddenly GFs are useless, but as of right now: No, I don't feel useless. Sure, a GWF does more damage than me, but guess what? GWFs are a damage dealing class while GFs aren't. I know this is an action MMO so the idea that you MUST do the most damage ever or be useless is kind of a thing, but there really is more to the game than damage..
I'm also a DPS/Hybrid specced GF, and I haven't had any issues keeping myself alive in single target or AoE encounters. It's all about knowing your strengths and weaknesses and how to avoid things, which is sadly a skill many people don't seem to have these days.
Well, I'm pretty sure that's different then. I cannot log into the game right now to check skill names (can't remember all of them yet as being new) but here goes: I do have this skill that I can run in to mark various adds for extra threat. I do have the feat for +threat. I do cleave, I do taunt. I do use KV, and heck I even have desperately used that skill to force an enemy to hit me (so that I take double damage). Yet, guess what: if they stick on me for 2 seconds, that would be a first-timer (unless I solo). No, they run all over the place, whatever skills/spec/gear I use. Never did the DPS spec though, and I will not, for that has nothing to do with tanking. I'd rather ditch the game. When I think tanking I think: group leading, ensuring organized fights (including positiong mobs), be able to survive to do all this, be able to think + prepare for what possible fkups other players could do.
I think GF is in the same spot as GWF was in the first weeks in module 1, is like reading the same threads again with majority saying that GF;s are underpowered and some guys saying that they are ok tho they dont show any numbers to support their claims. I cant remember where i;ve read that someguy met a GF that did higher dmg than a CW...
In my opinion GF;s are missing dmg atm due to the nerf that frontline surge received without getting anything else in exchange to compensate so to adress that they should give GF a dmg boost (why arent they a bleed dmg class is beyond me).
I know our role is to be the punching bag, and PWE has made that very clear with all the new gear content they've been releasing. But here's what I don't understand. My GWF guildy has the new GF paragon path, and he's able to hit 50k crits with Frontline, and 100k crits Indomitable Strength with proper debuffs going of course. He ONLY has 5k power, GFs can stack far more power than that, and yet the only way we can crit that high is with Villan's Menace, Knights Challenge, Mark, Tide of Iron, the debuffs, and Anvil of Doom. All those encounters.... Honestly, GWFs don't deserve/need Frontline & Threatening Rush. Especially while they're still able to have unstoppable.
Not only can they hit much much harder than us, but they can SPAM threatening Rush over & over, and over, until we hit them back. Which gives them determination to use unstoppable, plus their encounters will be back. I saw a thread not to long ago, that said what's the point in the GFs. I'm starting to understand what that thread means. GWFs can out tank us, out DPS us, hold aggro, can stack over 38k HP, and have better all around stats if spec'd correctly. They really don't have to stack ArP due to their constitution. And it's not that hard to spec them to be the ultimate machine.
Another thing is.... Why can rangers still root GFs when we use Villan's Menace? We're suppose to be immune to ALL forms of CC...
The tactic to beat GWFs in PvP used to be very simple, and yet still challenging and FUN!! Now, it's just..........
.....Is it just me that feels this way?....
(Updated)
I did all that grinding just to find out the new Dread gear isn't worth it. The set bonus isn't of much use, there's no power. GFs don't have enough DPS for lifesteal to be effective. Plus our MOST important AoE encounter (Enforced Threat & Frontline) aren't that good. Enforced Threat has a 5 mob hit cap. Frontline's AP generation was NERFED hardcore. So now that means less fighters recovery, to keep us alive while being the punching bag. Soulforge is no longer good, because when we "die" we lose the aggro. Meaning we have to recollect it ALL over again. We're suppose to be the "TANK" yet we can still get controlled very easily. Would be nice to have unstoppable/be unstoppable as a REAL TANK should. Enforced Threat should give us 100% aggro without having to hit anything.
Devs claim dungeons can be beaten with low recommended GS, but won't give new players hints on how to conquer them. So this promotes players to exploit glitches. The new enchant system burns up AD. It's MUUUUCCCHHH harder to get a RARE Mark of Power than it is to get a EPIC.... *Sigh*
Artifacts bring a MAJOR unbalance to PvP. Speaking of PvP, that's the ONLY reason why I keep playing the game. PvP is the REASON why I do PvE. But PvP is no longer fun anymore =/... Ranger's Vines can CC GFs even through Villan's Menace, I swear they can dodge like 4-6 times lol. GWFs are very difficult to kill now. Not to mention they can SPAM Threatening Rush, have 4 CC encounters, plus an Anti-CC... There's a TR build that's going around that makes it VERY difficult for GFs in PvP. I'm not saying GFs shouldn't have enemy classes that are our weakness. But we are incredibility under powered in certain aspects. And honestly, there is no real need for GFs in PvE =/... All you need for PvE are CWs and DCs. All you need for PvP are GWFs, CWs, TRs, and DCs, and maybe HRs. Not to mention the HORRIBLE rubber band lags lately.
It hurts to say this, but... Guardian Fighters suck =/...
The only valid points to your post is because you are a purely PvP player. If this was a PvE post i'd slap you upside the head. In PvE GF's are superior to GWF in every way. I hope this superiority and the slow rise and need for a tank in the game will get the GF to replace the TR as the PvE's solitary Melee class.
In PvE as a GF I go Swordmaster Regen/Recovery Build for as much AP as I can generate and damage immunity defense and self healing. You think a GWF is hard to kill try a GF that uses fighters recovery while immune to damage for 5 seconds and runs down his foes with Knights challenge, Lunging Strike and bull Charge. No one takes you point when you sit there with this kind of GF build.
The real problem is that GWF players are soully PvP builds, they can't get groups in PvE so of course they trun to the only thing they are good at PvP, and spec and gear and enchant 100% around PvP. My GF PvP gear is nothing compared to my PvE gear. Probably like most players and I do well enough. But yeah I know it when I run into a truly geared GWF, it feels just as bad when I run into a trly geared TR or GF as well.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
"The only valid points to your post is because you are a purely PvP player. If this was a PvE post i'd slap you upside the head. In PvE GF's are superior to GWF in every way. I hope this superiority and the slow rise and need for a tank in the game will get the GF to replace the TR as the PvE's solitary Melee class.
In PvE as a GF I go Swordmaster Regen/Recovery Build for as much AP as I can generate and damage immunity defense and self healing. You think a GWF is hard to kill try a GF that uses fighters recovery while immune to damage for 5 seconds and runs down his foes with Knights challenge, Lunging Strike and bull Charge. No one takes you point when you sit there with this kind of GF build.
The real problem is that GWF players are soully PvP builds, they can't get groups in PvE so of course they trun to the only thing they are good at PvP, and spec and gear and enchant 100% around PvP. My GF PvP gear is nothing compared to my PvE gear. Probably like most players and I do well enough. But yeah I know it when I run into a truly geared GWF, it feels just as bad when I run into a trly geared TR or GF as well."
-You clearly missed the point I was making... Which is, GFs are not NEEDED, not REQUIRED, not crucial to HAVE in a party, low DEMAND.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
I really enjoy killing the GWF's who use GF stats, I call them "fan boys" . Anyone made a GF build with the GWF abilities that is any good?
As a GWF, GF's were the only class I really didn't even bother fighting. Knockdown is the one CC I couldn't completely ignore, and their tank was simply too strong for me to worry about doing a one-on-one against. So when it came to picking targets, GF's were the LAST on my list. Better to just outrun them and get your CW to pick them off.
There's always that part of balance in this game.
Now, as far as using the Iron Vanguard abilities (not so sure about 'stats', as neither of my GWF's stack defense OR power, like I've seen from many GF builds), I feel I've got quite a bit of success. My sentinel GWF runs Iron Vanguard, using Threatening Rush as a closer and aggro-management in groups (along with daring shout for more aggro management), Frontline Surge for push adds, and ferocious reaction full time for sustainability (combined with my unstoppable, Unstoppable Recovery, Sentinel's Aegis, Improved Ferocious Reaction, and full defensive build, plus soulforge in dungeons and high regen AND lifesteal stats for my full-time restoring strike setups, and I simply don't worry about touching potions anymore).
I run a full deflect build with Bravery and full heroic tank feats (human), with a split Titan/Vigilant set and full rank 7's. 30k health, 13.5 GS.
I feel that my current build is probably as close to the peak of a full deflect tank can get, and while my damage output isn't half of what my full destroyer swordmaster GWF can put out (which is comparable to a mid-to-upper end TR or CW, but not a max damage build from those classes), it's enough to get me through dungeon mobs without feeling like I'm dragging, and it's a breeze on solo quests.
To bring it back on point: is this comparable, damage and tank-wise, with what a full tank-spec GF can do? I believe it should be. While their defense would be shield block dependent (unlike mine, which relies on unstoppable), and more defense oriented (while mine is heavily deflect focused), the two classes should have almost identical performance at the same scale.
Instead of following the common MMO trope of every class filling only one billet, DnD and NWO seem to stick with the idea in 4e that each class be *capable* of doing almost all jobs necessary. Keyword is *capable*, and the point there is that you have to focus.
So while GWF have a very powerful capability for damage application and taking damage, and maybe GF need more focus on control abilities and taking damage, allowing two very different playstyles in the game to both perform the same role of tank.
Again, it's not our classes fault that the game just doesn't support tank very well right now. But having two tanking classes that play completely differently (one more deliberate and shield focused, the other faster and more focused on damage management and self heals) is, to me, a great thing.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Hmmm... is there any word on GF's guard meter being increased? Or someghing to make us more tankier than GWFs?
Considering the fact that gf has not seen any serious development time at all in the past 6 months or so (leaving out the mandatory "new" paragon path) and the amount of people here arguing that high end scaling doesn't matter at all - we can probably forget about any significant buffs in any foreseeable future. Oh well, at least GWF is viable now, so we can at least log on those when we want to play a fighter.
Hmmm... is there any word on GF's guard meter being increased? Or someghing to make us more tankier than GWFs?
Yo Ant! Where have you been man? I heard you're moving to new house. And yes I like that idea to make us tankier than a GWF, and increasing guard meter (in any way) is a great idea since that shield is the only thing that keep us alive (besides high regen/HP/deflect/defense).
Yo Ant! Where have you been man? I heard you're moving to new house. And yes I like that idea to make us tankier than a GWF, and increasing guard meter (in any way) is a great idea since that shield is the only thing that keep us alive (besides high regen/HP/deflect/defense).
-stramala
Yo, wassup Stramala! Yeah im not situated yet. My PC is still packed up, im using my phone to view the forums lol. I logged on NW last night from my GF's house and spoke with Almighty. I also looked for you and a few others last night, and before i moved to give you guys a heads up lol. But you're never logged on when i need you xD! But yeah, i should be back soon.
Anyways, i feel the GF's guard meter could use some tweaking. Because unlike other classes, we cant dodge or avoid things as easily. And the G-Meter can only handle so little before it breaks without tide of iron.
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
Comments
I don't like nerfs.. I think they lead to more *****ing. But you guys need to realize, with the dynamic of this game, you'll never have a true tank.. You just won't. The dev's don't know how to make a fight that requires one, trust me they have tried, they just can't do it with the 5 man party, and set up they have created. A GF would either need to get some serious party buffs, or more constant damage, OR a 30-40% defense/deflect increase which would say, "Ok, that guy is a ****ing iron plate, he can tank." Then create some more fights that require AGGRO and not Singularities... Figure it out Cryptic.
Last point... Do they really have any idea on gear? The fact that Stalwart was an easy one or two, (I get it, Grand Regent was good for turtles). But we have like 1-2 sets that are even worth it. FIGURE IT OUT. I feel sorry for new GF's who didn't get to play when we could do crazy damage and block in CN... I used to run knight's challenge, and tank the Draco, then crit for around 130-150k max once it was under 25% life... While everyone else cc'd. What is this?! A tank had to fight the and not run around like a little ***** with a mob behind him??
I think it all comes down to the fact that a GF doesn't really have a place. GWF's can do everything we can, but better besides threat. We have one leg up on that. The rest... No point. GF's need a buff, or the dynamics of the game need changed, not to mention gear... At the end of the day, none of this will happen, GWF's will get nerfed, and we'll go back to making CW's and DC's and TR's to get parties lol.
TL;DR, you're right. GF is near-pointless in most setups. I'm sad
Man seriously, I'm 36 in age, my IQ is quite above average (am software engineer), I have tanked for about 10 years in various MMOs. I am not stupid, I know how to learn a class in a game, whatever game, whatever class - for simply I will do whatever it takes to be succesful in something. But not this GF in Neverwinter. It's just unbalanced as hell, and the mechanics seem severely broken - much like a 'GF' in real life. Not to mention the countless other issues, bad design decisions besides GF functioning, and maintenance during the weekend during peak hours...........
To make matters worse, I've talked to alot of people about this. In parties, chats, zone chat, and they basically all say the same that has been discussed in the forums here. GF is broken and is therefor not needed. The great majority advises to reroll, to GWF if for tanking, or to DC or CW for other things.
A class is supposed to work, not only proof to be a waste of both money and time. I am very surprised this game was even able to win an award, for it is an unfinnished, and simply a broken and defect product. Everyone is saying the same things about GF, yet they are there, without even stating during character creation: "NOTE: This class is not needed in parties.". For this reason I will not reroll, which is too bad, for in essence the game is great. I stress "in essence", for the final result is just a laughable time-waster with broken mechanics and failing creativty for encounters. I don't think PWE cares though; they already have my Euros. Too bad really, for if the class would just FUNCTION, I would spend more. Guess not.
EDIT: This will not ever change. EVER. You can count on that. If you think that buffing one or two skills will make a change, you're wrong. For simply, it's the core mechanics of the game that need to change for a GF to be effective. This will never happen, for that would result in very high costs and possibly loss of players.
Threat, in Neverwinter, is judged primarily by damage dealt. And damage, in Neverwinter, is king.
The problem with GF (and GWF, too, as the off tank) is that the bosses and mobs do 'avoidable' damage, mostly in aoe form. Meaning dodging and high deflect. Meaning no single opponent to focus on, really. Big red zones to make everyone run around is the name of the game.
In my mind, each major fight would require a single-target punching bag for the boss (if he's focused on the single target, maybe he doesn't do as many AOE's, eh?) and a guy who keeps all the adds pissed off so they don't swarm the punching bag. Everyone else applies their particular skills from the sidelines (read: debuffs and some damage), trying to avoid taking the heat off the punching bag and the chicken kicker.
This seems perfect for a GF/GWF combo. Yes, players should want BOTH tanks in their groups. And instead of the GF being the add kite that they have been (really, the slowest member of the party is kiting?), let them be the boss punching bag, able to take hits even a GWF has to throw up unstoppable to survive, and just shrug them off for the next one.
This requires a change in the way AI is handles. And enough damage output against non-tank classes (less AOE or dodge-capable attacks) to make them want to slow down their damage output and let us work.
Why even have tanks, if the rogue and CW's can just dodge any major attack while still applying insane damage?
Take their defenses away in ONLY these instances (boss battles), and all of a sudden having a dedicated tank and managing aggro becomes more of a concern for 'those other guys who aren't tanks'.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Secondly, no one should be kicking people at level 50 unless they AFK. While it is the section of the game where people finally need to be able to play their class, no one should be kicked if they are honestly trying and willing to listen to advice.
Thirdly, GWF are off-tank/DPSers. They should never be crying about having agro. If they do, tell them to take their sword and stick the add with the pointy end.
And don't give up on being a good GF. My main is a Cleric, and it doesn't matter how good or how well geared a GWF is... when I run MC or VT, an average GF survives longer and tanks better. The only primary difference is that a GWF can take a slot from having 3 CWs if you have a GF... and they are very good with Slam and very good at sprinting.
I'm also a DPS/Hybrid specced GF, and I haven't had any issues keeping myself alive in single target or AoE encounters. It's all about knowing your strengths and weaknesses and how to avoid things, which is sadly a skill many people don't seem to have these days.
Pinny Foxfang - 60 Guardian Fighter
Pinny Foxfire - 60 Scourge Warlock (Temptation)
Well, I'm pretty sure that's different then. I cannot log into the game right now to check skill names (can't remember all of them yet as being new) but here goes: I do have this skill that I can run in to mark various adds for extra threat. I do have the feat for +threat. I do cleave, I do taunt. I do use KV, and heck I even have desperately used that skill to force an enemy to hit me (so that I take double damage). Yet, guess what: if they stick on me for 2 seconds, that would be a first-timer (unless I solo). No, they run all over the place, whatever skills/spec/gear I use. Never did the DPS spec though, and I will not, for that has nothing to do with tanking. I'd rather ditch the game. When I think tanking I think: group leading, ensuring organized fights (including positiong mobs), be able to survive to do all this, be able to think + prepare for what possible fkups other players could do.
In my opinion GF;s are missing dmg atm due to the nerf that frontline surge received without getting anything else in exchange to compensate so to adress that they should give GF a dmg boost (why arent they a bleed dmg class is beyond me).
The only valid points to your post is because you are a purely PvP player. If this was a PvE post i'd slap you upside the head. In PvE GF's are superior to GWF in every way. I hope this superiority and the slow rise and need for a tank in the game will get the GF to replace the TR as the PvE's solitary Melee class.
In PvE as a GF I go Swordmaster Regen/Recovery Build for as much AP as I can generate and damage immunity defense and self healing. You think a GWF is hard to kill try a GF that uses fighters recovery while immune to damage for 5 seconds and runs down his foes with Knights challenge, Lunging Strike and bull Charge. No one takes you point when you sit there with this kind of GF build.
The real problem is that GWF players are soully PvP builds, they can't get groups in PvE so of course they trun to the only thing they are good at PvP, and spec and gear and enchant 100% around PvP. My GF PvP gear is nothing compared to my PvE gear. Probably like most players and I do well enough. But yeah I know it when I run into a truly geared GWF, it feels just as bad when I run into a trly geared TR or GF as well.
"The only valid points to your post is because you are a purely PvP player. If this was a PvE post i'd slap you upside the head. In PvE GF's are superior to GWF in every way. I hope this superiority and the slow rise and need for a tank in the game will get the GF to replace the TR as the PvE's solitary Melee class.
In PvE as a GF I go Swordmaster Regen/Recovery Build for as much AP as I can generate and damage immunity defense and self healing. You think a GWF is hard to kill try a GF that uses fighters recovery while immune to damage for 5 seconds and runs down his foes with Knights challenge, Lunging Strike and bull Charge. No one takes you point when you sit there with this kind of GF build.
The real problem is that GWF players are soully PvP builds, they can't get groups in PvE so of course they trun to the only thing they are good at PvP, and spec and gear and enchant 100% around PvP. My GF PvP gear is nothing compared to my PvE gear. Probably like most players and I do well enough. But yeah I know it when I run into a truly geared GWF, it feels just as bad when I run into a trly geared TR or GF as well."
-You clearly missed the point I was making... Which is, GFs are not NEEDED, not REQUIRED, not crucial to HAVE in a party, low DEMAND.
As a GWF, GF's were the only class I really didn't even bother fighting. Knockdown is the one CC I couldn't completely ignore, and their tank was simply too strong for me to worry about doing a one-on-one against. So when it came to picking targets, GF's were the LAST on my list. Better to just outrun them and get your CW to pick them off.
There's always that part of balance in this game.
Now, as far as using the Iron Vanguard abilities (not so sure about 'stats', as neither of my GWF's stack defense OR power, like I've seen from many GF builds), I feel I've got quite a bit of success. My sentinel GWF runs Iron Vanguard, using Threatening Rush as a closer and aggro-management in groups (along with daring shout for more aggro management), Frontline Surge for push adds, and ferocious reaction full time for sustainability (combined with my unstoppable, Unstoppable Recovery, Sentinel's Aegis, Improved Ferocious Reaction, and full defensive build, plus soulforge in dungeons and high regen AND lifesteal stats for my full-time restoring strike setups, and I simply don't worry about touching potions anymore).
I run a full deflect build with Bravery and full heroic tank feats (human), with a split Titan/Vigilant set and full rank 7's. 30k health, 13.5 GS.
I feel that my current build is probably as close to the peak of a full deflect tank can get, and while my damage output isn't half of what my full destroyer swordmaster GWF can put out (which is comparable to a mid-to-upper end TR or CW, but not a max damage build from those classes), it's enough to get me through dungeon mobs without feeling like I'm dragging, and it's a breeze on solo quests.
To bring it back on point: is this comparable, damage and tank-wise, with what a full tank-spec GF can do? I believe it should be. While their defense would be shield block dependent (unlike mine, which relies on unstoppable), and more defense oriented (while mine is heavily deflect focused), the two classes should have almost identical performance at the same scale.
Instead of following the common MMO trope of every class filling only one billet, DnD and NWO seem to stick with the idea in 4e that each class be *capable* of doing almost all jobs necessary. Keyword is *capable*, and the point there is that you have to focus.
So while GWF have a very powerful capability for damage application and taking damage, and maybe GF need more focus on control abilities and taking damage, allowing two very different playstyles in the game to both perform the same role of tank.
Again, it's not our classes fault that the game just doesn't support tank very well right now. But having two tanking classes that play completely differently (one more deliberate and shield focused, the other faster and more focused on damage management and self heals) is, to me, a great thing.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
If so please pm it to me!
Considering the fact that gf has not seen any serious development time at all in the past 6 months or so (leaving out the mandatory "new" paragon path) and the amount of people here arguing that high end scaling doesn't matter at all - we can probably forget about any significant buffs in any foreseeable future. Oh well, at least GWF is viable now, so we can at least log on those when we want to play a fighter.
-stramala
Yo, wassup Stramala! Yeah im not situated yet. My PC is still packed up, im using my phone to view the forums lol. I logged on NW last night from my GF's house and spoke with Almighty. I also looked for you and a few others last night, and before i moved to give you guys a heads up lol. But you're never logged on when i need you xD! But yeah, i should be back soon.
Anyways, i feel the GF's guard meter could use some tweaking. Because unlike other classes, we cant dodge or avoid things as easily. And the G-Meter can only handle so little before it breaks without tide of iron.
LMAO! This guys xD....