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Cosmetic expense? Outrageous!

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  • ulkaurulkaur Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    To be fair, changing your entire visible set includes chest, hat, gloves, belt, shoes, shield and weapon. That's over 350k diamonds. A coalescant ward, an item used for actual progression, costs less than a third of that. Something you do for aesthetics should never be more than something that provides progression unless it is a price set by players.

    Appearance as it stands is something you would do as a special occasion, when it should be priced so players could change it on a whim. That is the reason most people think it is a poorly thought-out feature of the game.

    If you are making millions daily, good for you, but some of us live outside the game and don't worry about a second in-game job. In fact, I stopped playing EQ, WoW and Rift because it did start to feel like a second job. I'm through turning over my free time to companies that don't pay me for it. If I am putting any money whatsoever into something I will get something in return. Otherwise it is just charity.
  • knightfalzknightfalz Member Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    gek1956 wrote: »
    And you, who has no more information or experience than me are right because... WHY?

    I don't need to have more information than you. I'm not the one setting the prices. Those that are setting prices have a great deal of experience setting cash shop prices and access to vasts amount of data to help them do so.
    Blizzard didn't know Jack Splat about the MMO business, yet managed to launch the biggest internet cash cow since AOL. WOW may be aging but it still out grosses every other game out there, even with an 'outdated business model'. I would say they got a lot more right than they did wrong. Not bad for beginners.

    Blizzard is irrelevant in this discussion because they are a p2p game. They lost their status as a beginner long, long ago. Their rise to success occurred in a much more empty playing field than exists now in any case. From what I've heard things aren't going their way right now, so they may well be past their prime. They sure are selling their game for cheap nowadays.

    Wanting more cosmetic items is one thing. Arguing for a change in prices is another. The first needs no argument as few would contest more choices in cosmetics. The second needs a sound argument to have any chance of persuading those that set the prices to alter them. That sound argument has to be based on more than opinions and desires.
  • knightfalzknightfalz Member Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    ulkaur wrote: »
    To be fair, changing your entire visible set includes chest, hat, gloves, belt, shoes, shield and weapon. That's over 350k diamonds. A coalescant ward, an item used for actual progression, costs less than a third of that. Something you do for aesthetics should never be more than something that provides progression unless it is a price set by players.

    I have changed the entire visible look on several of my characters. Most of the AD I used to do so came from invoking by those characters, with the remainder coming from Foundry dailies done by them. The cost to me for all these changes was nothing other than a bit of patience. It simply isn't as hard or burdensome as is being presented.
  • spyke2009spyke2009 Member Posts: 674 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    knightfalz wrote: »
    I don't need to have more information than you. I'm not the one setting the prices. Those that are setting prices have a great deal of experience setting cash shop prices and access to vasts amount of data to help them do so.


    Appeal to authority fallacy

    You can try and argue that they're "experts" on the matter of pricing, although I wouldn't want to be you in trying to get that one to fly in all honesty, especially not until they start releasing completely transparent information on their research and findings into pricing.

    But hey, the core argument against alleged bad monetizing is usually "argument by dismissal" another well known fallacy, so (all together!!!)

    "If you don't like the criticism you're reading then don't reply to it" *in monotone droning voice*
  • jakeesanjakeesan Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    so tired of whiny gamers that think they should get everything for cheap, or worse, for free. You think it's free to maintain servers and pay devs? Nearly everything can be obtained by playing the game. If you can't afford a couple hundred zen to get some AD to transmute your weapons, it's not PW/Cryptic's faults. I see this whiny bullcrap in every "F2P" game out there. You can enjoy what the game has to offer while the rest of us pay for you to exist, or you can chip in as well. As another poster wrote, 50k AD is what, a couple hundred zen? Get over it. That's nothing. I dont care what CO does. I have played that game since the day it was launched and have spent tons of money on it. So? Explain to me why every game must follow the model of every other game. And in case you don't know, CO still has a sub. fee for gold members (hehe goldmember). This game does NOT have a monthly fee. What people really want is to have everything available in a game given to them for free. You say you want prices dropped, so obviously you have a way to make the cheaper amount you are asking for. So, instead of the amount of time it will take you to make the "cheaper" price you are asking for, you have to take a little longer. Boo hoo. Here's an idea: STOP BEING IMPATIENT.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Member Posts: 693 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    cribstaxxx wrote: »
    I agree it's costly to change cosmetic on every piece of armor and weapon (250k, 300k for neck too) but you should only do this if you have your final build, and the change is forever.

    So your solution is to never change any skins until you are level-capped, have the gear that you want, and have seen all of the available skins for the item type in question?

    That doesn't sound like a great solution to me.

    Don't get me wrong; It's the best way to handle the situation for anyone trying to save some AD, I just don't think that the situation is something that has to exist.

    Why not change that?

    ======================

    Two ways to go here that I can think of right now.

    The first is obvious; Lower the prices. The idea is that more people may switch skins and/or switch skins more often, so that the lack of the big cost is balanced by more smaller costs.

    I don't know if ti would work or if people would still wait, but it's an option.


    The second is to let all skins be added to some sort of permanent file for the character, so that they can freely access that skin at any time thereafter.

    This would eliminate the sliding scale. All changes would cost the same amount of AD, but a character could switch freely from then on. Find a weapon with a look you like at level 15? Pay the cost and that skin is yours for as long as you want it.
    If you later find another skin that you like, then pay again and now you have an extra option. That cost that you paid the first time isn't even so bad, because you can always go back to it later if you want to change up the look a little, and you will have probably gotten some mileage out of it, anyway, as you likely changed gear a few times before you came across the new look.

    50K one time to have access to a certain appearance for some piece of gear forever after that? Well, if people are only paying one time, anyway, then what is the difference?

    And, again, some people may decide that they want two or three different armor appearances available to them, so that's even more AD being spent.

    This second option to me is all reward and no risk on their part.
    At worst they break even as people still only ever change skins that one time or not at all, but every person that sees permanent access as a good thing and decides to spend some AD that hey wouldn't spend before, and every person that decides that they want mutliple armor or weapon skins available, is that much more AD spent that isn't being spent with the current system.
  • tektrotektro Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    while i had the same thought at some point in my nvo experience, i now disagree completely with this.

    at somepoint when you're deep into end-game and your character gets to be nearly perfect stats wise in your opinion... all dailies are completed, guildies are elsewhere, pugs are making you rethink the overall wordly IQ, can'T think of what to buy in AH under 1 million ADs... whats left to do? that'S right transmuting.

    transmuting needs to stay expansive as it is and also as unconvienient as it is right now to remain the great money-sink/time-sink it is as very late end-game hobby.

    make it any easier/cheaper and everyone'S back looking the exact same as whoever found the coolest combination of looks without any effort.

    edit: what i would like to see though is more variety regarding single slot dyes (not packs). each individual color of any pack in the game should be available as single slot dye imo, and it's not like it'd be tough on devs...
  • gottneverwintergottneverwinter Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 112 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    The general concept is they charge people for Cosmaetics and Impatience and convience, keeping a majority of the functional game FREE, would you rather have the OPTION to pay for a weapon skin or be REQUIRED to pay for classes, epic areas, and the best gear.

    I'd rather pay a sub, with no cash grab, instead of making everything difficult to obtain for anyone that doesn't live in the game.

    That's why I'm hoping they work really hard on ESO for the next five months, so it's actually sub-worthy.
  • spyke2009spyke2009 Member Posts: 674 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    jakeesan wrote: »
    so tired of whiny gamers that think they should get everything for cheap, or worse, for free.

    This

    with a heaping dose of

    This

    Reasons?

    Well first of all you're insinuating that everyone who disagree with the current pricing and models is in fact "whiney" which is naturally negative and or "entitled" which is the most horribly misused term right now in terms of the industry. that's classic appeal to ridicule, clearly in order to have the opinion you merely disagree with, they're whingebags... right? So this is thinly veiled ad hominem and the reasons?

    jakeesan wrote: »
    You think it's free to maintain servers and pay devs? Nearly everything can be obtained by playing the game. If you can't afford a couple hundred zen to get some AD to transmute your weapons, it's not PW/Cryptic's faults. I see this whiny bullcrap in every "F2P" game out there. You can enjoy what the game has to offer while the rest of us pay for you to exist, or you can chip in as well. As another poster wrote, 50k AD is what, a couple hundred zen? Get over it. That's nothing. I dont care what CO does. I have played that game since the day it was launched and have spent tons of money on it. So? Explain to me why every game must follow the model of every other game. And in case you don't know, CO still has a sub. fee for gold members (hehe goldmember). This game does NOT have a monthly fee. What people really want is to have everything available in a game given to them for free. You say you want prices dropped, so obviously you have a way to make the cheaper amount you are asking for. So, instead of the amount of time it will take you to make the "cheaper" price you are asking for, you have to take a little longer. Boo hoo. Here's an idea: STOP BEING IMPATIENT.

    Classic straw man as stated. No one. In any of the posts I've personally read on this forum has EVER stated

    "we want the game to be completely devoid all all monetizing influences"

    I followed this forum religiously for months every day, and not ONCE did I see this actual request, it is and I'm being as polite as possible here... complete and utter bo**ocks.

    I could be mistaken and somewhere someone has made this request in some drunken haze, but ultimately that is not nor has it ever been the basis or intention of any valid criticism about the games financial pricing ranges and model. You can pretend that folks are saying that if you want to, you can screenshot the pages where people have posted, copy them into a visual imaging software of your choice and edit them so that they're making that request if you REALLY want to, but ultimately that endeavor would be deluded.

    I'm completely open to you showing me a post wherein it was explicitly stated otherwise however, and I'll be the first to join you in telling said person to stop smoking whatever it is they're smoking. But until then this is a complete and utter nonsensical fallacy.

    If there is ANY entitlement I see, it's the perceived entitlement of players that allegedly "support" the game to either

    1: Dismiss

    2: Ridicule

    3: Blatantly and deliberately misinterpret for the sake of making points seem invalid (straw man).

    Just about anyone who has a negative viewpoint when it comes to the opinion on the financial model employed by NWO.

    This is not how you do things, you are currently arguing nothing but fallacies, the prime example of dismissal being "you don't like it? you can leave" being akin to bloody victim blaming!

    "Oh you're afraid of being mugged again? well if that's the case you should clearly lock yourself away so it never happens again"

    It's nonsense... "stahp"
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Member Posts: 693 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    tektro wrote: »
    while i had the same thought at some point in my nvo experience, i now disagree completely with this.

    at somepoint when you're deep into end-game and your character gets to be nearly perfect stats wise in your opinion... all dailies are completed, guildies are elsewhere, pugs are making you rethink the overall wordly IQ, can'T think of what to buy in AH under 1 million ADs... whats left to do? that'S right transmuting.

    How many times do you plan on transmuting that best armor available once you get it for your character?

    How about that best available weapon? Going to change it's looks once a week? Once a month?
  • tektrotektro Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    How many times do you plan on transmuting that best armor available once you get it for your character?

    How about that best available weapon? Going to change it's looks once a week? Once a month?

    between the combat/casual looks and the available choices we currently have, also the lack of a "preview" feature, it is very foolishly expansive and unconvienient to me at least. and i like it that way. you can't ever be done with it as you are never done finding out what this one or that one could look like without preview. the only way is trying it out for ~50k or find a documented website which are currently all lacking. it's a nice hobby i liked to have this on some other characters ive had. now im on my ranger far from end-game still so it's not currently a priority
  • kaiuscormerekaiuscormere Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1
    edited December 2013
    cribstaxxx wrote: »
    Yeah not to mention many players make 20-24k per character easily with leadership + a daily every day. 51k is not much TBH


    I only hit the refining cap like once or twice in the entire time I have played this game. It's fairly typical I will refine less than 5k AD a day.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Member Posts: 693 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    tektro wrote: »
    between the combat/casual looks and the available choices we currently have, also the lack of a "preview" feature, it is very foolishly expansive and unconvienient to me at least. and i like it that way. you can't ever be done with it as you are never done finding out what this one or that one could look like without preview. the only way is trying it out for ~50k or find a documented website which are currently all lacking. it's a nice hobby i liked to have this on some other characters ive had. now im on my ranger far from end-game still so it's not currently a priority

    Well, there is a preview for changing appearance, so I do not know what you mean there.

    But your argument is "I have no idea what I am spending my money on, I just spend it and let myself be surprised, and I think that that is an excellent model by which to run the game"?

    Not "After spending 50K ADs and sacrificing some piece of gear I shouldn't have to pay another 50K ADs to change the look again, or revert to the original appearance", but "I have plenty of money so I don't care how much I waste"?
  • knightfalzknightfalz Member Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    spyke2009 wrote: »
    Appeal to authority fallacy

    You can try and argue that they're "experts" on the matter of pricing, although I wouldn't want to be you in trying to get that one to fly in all honesty, especially not until they start releasing completely transparent information on their research and findings into pricing.

    But hey, the core argument against alleged bad monetizing is usually "argument by dismissal" another well known fallacy, so (all together!!!)

    "If you don't like the criticism you're reading then don't reply to it" *in monotone droning voice*

    All you got here is a lot of blather about fallacies and nothing of substance to contradict their price setting knowledge. Anybody can pull accusations of fallacy out of their hat. They don't amount to a hill of beans when served up on their own.

    Their expertise is shown by their ability to successfully run many MMORPGs over a considerable period of time that either include cash shops as part of the payment model or form the backbone of that model. They wouldn't be able to do that if they didn't know how to set prices at a point that would bring in the money they are looking for.
  • knightfalzknightfalz Member Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    tektro wrote: »
    between the combat/casual looks and the available choices we currently have, also the lack of a "preview" feature, it is very foolishly expansive and unconvienient to me at least. and i like it that way. you can't ever be done with it as you are never done finding out what this one or that one could look like without preview. the only way is trying it out for ~50k or find a documented website which are currently all lacking. it's a nice hobby i liked to have this on some other characters ive had. now im on my ranger far from end-game still so it's not currently a priority

    When I'm thinking of trasmuting something I simply equip the item I'm thinking of transmuting it to so I can see if I like the appearance of it on me, if I'm not trasmuting a previous look onto a replacement item.

    This allows me to preview the new look I would have to my heart's content for no AD cost. I think most people would do so before parting with the AD, simply to avoid needless waste.
  • alandoril1alandoril1 Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    knightfalz wrote: »
    No, the argument is the price isn't outrageous when you're at level 60, the time when you should be thinking about transmuting your items. If you can't afford that price with ease at that point, you have more serious game issues to get a handle on than cosmetic transmutation, as in developing your earning potential.

    Develop your earning potential? I was under the impression this was a game...not ppd software for bankers.
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    alandoril1 wrote: »
    Develop your earning potential? I was under the impression this was a game...not ppd software for bankers.

    it's a game with a player-driven economy that some people opt to play like the real world stock market. but you can play the game and level a character up to level 60 without actively trying to gain wealth. it can still be enjoyable depending on your personal preferences. but in a thread about the expense of cosmetic changes, your options would be limited to free transmute items.
  • themagicbum87themagicbum87 Member Posts: 75
    edited December 2013
    Quick side question: Let's say I have a CW orb that was transmuted to a tome. If I get a new weapon, can I transmute it with my old weapon that looks like a book (but is really an orb) and make my new weapon look like a tome? Or will it transmute it to the appearance of the original orb?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Quick side question: Let's say I have a CW orb that was transmuted to a tome. If I get a new weapon, can I transmute it with my old weapon that looks like a book (but is really an orb) and make my new weapon look like a tome? Or will it transmute it to the appearance of the original orb?

    i haven't done it but i would assume it would transmute into what it currently looks like, although if your current orb was transmuted with a free-transmute item, it would not be a free transmute if you used it on your new upgrade item.

    you can also test this out on the preview shard before you attempt it in-game.
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Quick side question: Let's say I have a CW orb that was transmuted to a tome. If I get a new weapon, can I transmute it with my old weapon that looks like a book (but is really an orb) and make my new weapon look like a tome? Or will it transmute it to the appearance of the original orb?

    You should get the keep the book-look.
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

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  • khimera906khimera906 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Aren't the Tomes like 14k in the Wondrous Bazaar and a free to transmute? Why would you spend 51K to copy the image from your old weapon? Not to mention you could salvage your old orb and recover some of the AD you payed on the Tome... That's if you specifically want the image of the Tome of Command and it wasn't just a random example...
    I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
  • geoffreysgeoffreys Member Posts: 87 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    I agree with the general sentiment in that it's to costly to transmute appearance. I certainly wish it was cheaper then it is
  • geoffreysgeoffreys Member Posts: 87 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    knyteshade wrote: »
    With all due respect, this is a matter of opinion. Not everyone is like you. In fact, many people are not like you. Other equally valid takes on gaming exist. There are a great many gamers out there who fundamentally enjoy a game for being able to express their individuality DURING a grind, not after it. When you force people to grind as a prerequisite to enjoying the game how they most wish to enjoy it, that removes the "game" aspect and leaves a job in its place.

    Your opinion is valid, but there are also other valid ways of enjoying a game for people who don't have your personality. For example, people who preferentially enjoy aesthetics, and yet still want to be playing a combat game.

    I agree with this as well. I understand that many gamers race to end game, and for them, that is where their real game starts. However, I'd like to enjoy the journey to end game (to include my character's appearance), and not just when I arrive there.
  • mycillemycille Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 42
    edited December 2013
    I have a question :

    if i use one item to change the appearance of another, do i lose it? In other words, does the primary item get consumed?
    it is important to know because I wouldn't like to lose items in order to take their appearance.
  • khimera906khimera906 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    You will lose the item from which the appearance is copied - I assume that's what you mean by "primary item".
    Let's say you have a regular Great Sword and you wanna change it's appearance to the Hammer from the Dread Legion Skirmish, the Hammer skin will be lost in the process.
    I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
  • mycillemycille Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 42
    edited December 2013
    yeah that's what i meant^^.

    Ah, it is unfortunate, thanks for the answer :).
  • str8slayerstr8slayer Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 715 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2013
    Just let us use gold to transmute, even if it's like 5 or 10.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • khimera906khimera906 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    Even if I can make 50k without too much hassle, it still feels like it's unfairly pricey. I would transmute thing left and right if the fee would be somewhere around 25k. I think this the case for a lot of us; it's not the amount AD itself, but the fact that it feels like a ripoff.
    I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
  • mousernovmousernov Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    35.00 for a pet per character, 5.00 plus for cosmetic changes per character and the list goes on, not to mention the prolific drop rate of boxes and the low, very low, drop rate. Not sure if some of you are employed by PW or not, but any reasonable person will view this for what it is. I have to wonder how many folk have simply closed their wallets and how many have lost interest in relation to these things. Great game, loads of fun to be had, have to have a fly in the ointment, way of things these days.
  • melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    mousernov wrote: »
    35.00 for a pet per character, 5.00 plus for cosmetic changes per character and the list goes on, not to mention the prolific drop rate of boxes and the low, very low, drop rate. Not sure if some of you are employed by PW or not, but any reasonable person will view this for what it is. I have to wonder how many folk have simply closed their wallets and how many have lost interest in relation to these things. Great game, loads of fun to be had, have to have a fly in the ointment, way of things these days.

    i don't have to be employed by the company to be able to figure out that zen store prices, while they may seem high, can be subsidized by in-game currency (AD) by way of the astral diamond exchange. zen store items may also be acquired for free this way as well. the only drawback to these methods is it would take some time to acquire... so if you must have these items now, then you only have the option of buying these with real money. not to mention none of these items are required to progress in the game.
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