You just described an amazing marketing trick. You need to buy the most expensive version, and stack multiples. I guess that a small percentage of the people that stack them have actually farmed them, so this is translated to money for them, and probably more development power for us. They do give an advantage, and most likely an unfair advantage but they are refering to certain builds, certain budgets and can be countered by opponents who run similar groups.
I know how it feels to get crushed by a button mush and going from 100 to 0 in a shot, but I don't think that Tenebrous are so game breaking that they affect the PvP balance. The only think that needs to be done, is a Ranking system, and a separation between casual and hardcore gamers (which will naturally follow the introduction of a ranking system).
If people feel the need to fork out real money and stack 7 enchants costing 80$ each or farming for months to get one, then who are we to stop them? But let them compete with other people that are willing to do so also.
* Notorious Dwarven Bear Cavalry Leader *
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
First, game balance, especially PvP, should not be dictated by financial concerns, but by the needs of the game. The argument we see here is "Tenes are directly related to real money transactions, so they must remain OP to not drive away customers". Obviously such an argument is fallacious, in the long term, if you leave your game unbalanced you will end up driving away way more people than a few customers, and MMOs without consistent player base... we know what happen to them.
Second, a GTE is around 4.000.000 AD. This makes it half as valuable as a Perfect Vorpal. A Perfect Vorpal is an OP thing in itself - however, developers were smart enough to make a single slot available for it, excluding other improvements for your weapon. Thisis proper design for an OP item - you make it so it doesn't stack and that it excludes the use of other OP items.
Now, take 7 offensive slots... and each can accommodate a GTE, and you still have room for the weapon enchant.
Some might say don't compare apples with eggs... however, this is not really a comparison, it is an attempt to quantify how valuable are GTEs for your offensive capabilities.
I'd say the market has it right. Having 7 GTEs is approximately like having 3 P.Vorpals, with the possibility of adding the 4th in the weapon socket.
This is just bad design for what is a very powerful enchant that should either be modified, or even better, should be made into a weapon enchant and slightly improved.
Third, people constantly ignore that the OP, ayroux, has used/using 7 GTEs on his GWF and maybe GF too. He is playing for a long time and is among the best PvPers in the game. So it's silly to try to ignore what he says or try to make it look like an ungeared 10 GS player got owned by some GTE user and now QQs in the forums. ayroux can easily go head to head with other GTE users from what I've seen from the little I've played with him and has beast characters.
So this is hardly a matter of complaining, this is a matter of an experienced player trying to improve balance in the game, at his own expense (since he has 7 GTEs...), so it's to be appreciated. It's a matter of sincere feedback from somebody that tested the GTEs extensively.
Now, there will always be resistance to such suggestions... because being OP is fun, there's no denying it. I know it very well myself, I'm hardly as fair as the OP is and I tried to defend HV stacking, just because I liked it, even as I understood it's a bit too good to stay. Who doesn't like power? And who wants to give it away? Basically nobody.
So there will NEVER be a winning argument here in this topic. Whatever truth will be said about the GTEs, people that use them will ignore it...
So you are angry that people are funding your continued free use of this game by spending $560 on Tene's alone for 1 character? What if everyone that paid for PvP just stopped... I doubt we'd ever see a module 3.
Ayroux is obviously talking about pug matches, matches in which his 7 tene's and knowledge of the game obviously allow for an easy victory. Any character in r9-10 enchants and perfect weapon/armor enchant will decimate everyone in a pug match. Put equally geared characters together however and Tene's are not the deciding factor of anything.
Nothing is dictated by financial concerns, money for AD is a way for people that are physically unable to play as much to still be able to earn high level gear. This is why new content continues to roll out and the game continue to prosper as free to play. You have just as much of an ability to farm and achieve Gtene's. I have been playing since open beta and it may have been a hard grind but I have managed to get some Perfects and Tene's while spending very minimal money.
Just as you argue that "it takes too long to farm that much" you also argue that we should just screw everyone that already farmed that much and nerf them into worthless.
dangit I responded to this thread again =/
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
FirstSo there will NEVER be a winning argument here in this topic. Whatever truth will be said about the GTEs, people that use them will ignore it...
Wise.
To the "Cryptic using Tene as Cash farm" conspiracy theorists...
It makes no sense to make a GREATER enchant BIS. If this were truly the case, and they were just seeking more money, they would not make diminishing returns on stats and thus allow R10s to be amazing.
People say if they remove tene pugs will still get rolled by R9-R10 users, thats correct. However, the damage difference you gain from a R9 to a R10 is almost nothing its not even worth the AD.
A r10 costs an insane amount of AD. A greater tene is ONLY worth what it is, because of its power. Reduce the power and it reduced the worth. Back before people knew how good they were I could and did buy lesser tenes for 10k AD.... Thats right, 10k AD. Which if you do the math, you cna MAKE a grater tene for about 300k AD.
Can you make even a r8 for that? No. I have a character (TR) who doesnt use tenebs and uses R8s and Perf Vorpal. Hes pretty strong no doubt. However my Tene characters are by far, stronger than he is.
Overall it makes no sense to say they are keeping them OP for the cash, if that was so, they would promote PVP MUCH more in this game to get more people to play it to then sell the tenebs in lockboxes.
The fact they are not promoting pvp and the enchant is only good in pvp... makes no sense.
The teneb enchants need a reworking. MY OP goes along way in nerfing them, I have posted other ideas about buffing them in PVE like a shorter CD would help. As of right now they are pigeon holed in a pvp build because of their worthlessness in pve...
Balance the two sides and now you have a good enchant thats not breaking pvp.
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yolojunglerMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 14Arc User
So you are angry that people are funding your continued free use of this game by spending $560 on Tene's alone for 1 character? What if everyone that paid for PvP just stopped... I doubt we'd ever see a module 3.
This is just an example of how flowed your arguments are.
The amount that comes from tenes compared to the total amount people pay for everything else in in this game would not even put a dent into what is needed to make module 3.
There is alot of threads why GTE are op and talking about other ench just showes that you have no clue what you are talking about. GTE removes defence and allowes burst dam that can not be defended against. Facing a team that focus fire means instant death nm what.
There are several premade teams out there that have GTE that actually fight pugs and somehow find it funny to obliterate them over and over. You can argue that they would still win but faced with a good working pug it would still be a fight about it, with the GTE:s its just a slaughter.
GTE removes dodge, port, block, unstoppeble, soulforged, defence, deflect etc etc they make skill go out the window. There is nothing in this game that comes near what GTE does.
Its like make a game for knife fights and through in some handgunes for a selective few(mostly old vetarans with gear advantage enough against new players).
The only reason for defending GTE is that you have them and that you like being OP end of storry.
If being OP by buying GTE is something that should be allowed is another discussion but dont compare GTE with other ench...
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yolojunglerMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited October 2013
side note, i like how no one mentions that barkshield enchant completely negates tenebs.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So you are angry that people are funding your continued free use of this game by spending $560 on Tene's alone for 1 character?
Nah man, where did I come as angry?
To be honest, I wish that invested time or even money in my char will guarantee no nerfing change, but this is an MMO that's constantly patched, so yeah...
I have argued against many other things that I include in the classic RPG "cheese" category, including my beloved Ice Knife. Tenes are momentarily the best cheese variety in the game, allowing build that should basically tickle to hit like a truck.
To shorten what I've said in my previous post, I'd just like the cheese to be dealt with, or isolated in a ladder and matchmaking system.
Until then, whatever, it's a game, I won't get angry for it
As for myself, the best cheese variety I'll enjoy will be a G. Vorpal. I bet I won't be playing this game by the time I would have enough AD for a Perfect.
First, game balance, especially PvP, should not be dictated by financial concerns, but by the needs of the game. The argument we see here is "Tenes are directly related to real money transactions, so they must remain OP to not drive away customers". Obviously such an argument is fallacious
It is, but GTENEs are available to anyone as far as I can see. Cryptic just offers a shortcut to people that want to jump in earlier. That's not Pay to Win, it's Pay to Skip Farming, which is fine in my book.
First Third...people constantly ignore that the OP, ayroux, has used/using 7 GTEs on his GWF and maybe GF too. He is playing for a long time and is among the best PvPers in the game. So it's silly to try to ignore what he says or try to make it look like an ungeared 10 GS player got owned by some GTE user and now QQs in the forums. ayroux can easily go head to head with other GTE users from what I've seen from the little I've played with him and has beast characters.
Nobody is ignoring the OP. It's hard to, since this thread pops every now and then and he keeps reminding us. However, we've spotted the same issue with GWFs and GFs that are not some of the best PvPers in the game and are not full of skill. They just happened to have the money or time to stack 7 G.Tene and the full suite of high HP and regeneration. The thing is that you can't see this in a void. If you make a group of all the GTENE stacking people that happen to be good at the game, put them in a competitive bracket, and let them feast on one another, then you instantly got balance.
Most MMOs are like that. Certain builds have no hope against others, and if you don't spec or gear up exactly as the given build then you are always a tier behind. I think that if you form a team of players that are willing to go hardcore on PvP, then you will balance things out. I will repeat what I think is the main problem imho. It's the lack of different pools for PvP. Now all the fish are in the same pool and you get guys that like to one-shot people that want to take it easier, run rampant against them.
If you just watch a Premade vs Premade with people that are uber-geared, you'll see balance. There is nothing bad with having top tier builds that are 'up-there' since it motivates people to achieve a goal (how much time would you think an average player would need to reach the 7 GTENE/P.Vorpal status?) or find a shortcut to do it (ZEN).
For the sake of making this simpler, I want to paint a hypothetical picture here.
lets for the sake of argument say that any player with 6 Greater Tenes can "fuse" them and it becomes a main hand weapon called the "Tenebrous Destroyer". This weapon has 2000 top end damage and has a feature that make all of your attacks ignore 100% of your opponents DR.
Sounds Overpowered right? And you would be correct in saying it is so.
NOW, lets defend that sword using the exact same logic seen in this thread,
I don't think the devs will budge on them.
Why?
It's a moneymaker. If at anytime they want to pull in some more revenue, what will they do? pull out the nightmare lockbox, advertise the "Tenebrous Destroyer" and watch the dollars roll in.
i don't think the answer lies in nerfing what exists. fix the matchmaking system to take those things into consideration. gem rankings, gear score, stats - however they want to fix it as long as the playing field is level for everyone. i mean if i was spending high dollars and/or spent lots of time acquiring high level items for pvp and every game i played, i got one, maybe two kills in before everyone on the other team leaves... i'd be pretty ticked off about that. not that i couldn't massacre the other lowbies but because there'd be little to no challenge involved.
there are plenty of ways to do a ton of damage without ever needing a "tenebrous destroyer" .
Instead of sitting on the form trying to get other people's builds nerfed you should come up with a way to improve upon what you're doing and make yourself an efficient pvper. The problem with pvp is people like you sit there and cry all day instead of becoming better and providing a steady level of competition. The other major issue at hand is there is no ranking system or separation from the bots rocking green gear and the elite level pvpers.
See unlike you I've been playing since Beta and have tried numerous builds. I play every single class and have 10 level 60 chars, some of them are built around "tenebrous destroyer", most of them aren't. I understand the complexities of the game and that there's far more to it than slotting some enchantments and running around thinking i'm in God mode. Cry less, improve more. Evolve.
I AM a casual, and this would not help me in the least. Nerfing the "tenebrous destroyer" that I paid a ton of AD for and making them garbage compared to R8's would certainly not "help" my PvP experience. The people that complain are 10k GS against an opponent with P. weapon/armor enchants and they would have lost just as badly whether the person had "tenebrous destroyer" or not.
"Tenebrous Destoryer" is just another "end game" gear that must be worked for. I have been working toward top tier PvP gear since April 30th and to so many others that have ground out the AD since then are just going to be told sorry you're SOL and not only is the "tenebrous destroyer" garbage to use but they are now worth 1/20th of what you paid for them, have a nice day!
Point is "tenebrous destroyer" are a major part of the economy for PvP players, and making it trash will lose more paying customers than leaving them, which is why I know cryptic will make the right decision.
I think you see the point.
So based on the exact same logic, these players would and should hold (if being intellectually honest and consistent in their arguments" that this weapon should NOT be nerfed based upon the reasons above.
Unfortunately, anyone can clearly see that this hypothetical item WOULD break PVP and SHOULD be nerfed.
Just like tenebrous enchants, they truly are broken. I have used them for many months, they are extremely OP and even stacking ALL R10 enchants, you will not put out the same damage. Simple math will show that.
300 * 7 = 2100.
For simple math lets look at the numbers.
2100 power = around a 7% damage boost. Taking a 5k encounter to what, a 5350. Thats not a big deal.
2100 crit = (depends on where your at) but lets say 15% crit chance more. Lets say even with a perfect vorpal you have around 125% crit severity. Well that is a pretty big DPS boost of about 18-19% on average. That turns your encounter of 5k into 5950. Or since it would be a crit, youd just crit more, whcih translates into a damage boost.
2100 arp = around the same 15% more (depends where you are) damage. Well 5k = 5750.
BUT! 7 GTE? on a 30k HP character, that turns your 5k encounter into a 11,300.
Tenebs proc once every 20 seconds (after 2 individual nerfs) this is far from a sustained form of dps
Part of the issue is you DONT need DPS in pvp, you need burst damage. Tenebs = burst damage. While yes they are HORRIBLE for DPS. The misconception in that comparison is you are always attacking AND that its a 20 sec CD. It is not a 20 sec CD, its a 20 second SERVERSIDE CD meaning you CAN get back to back procs completely blowing someone up with pure necrotic damage.
It IS overpowered in pvp. plain and simple.
Just because you can try and defend an overpowered item, the arguments clearly fall short when used in the same way to try and also defend a truly overpowered "hypothetical" item. Thus you cannot use the same arguments for Tenebrous enchants, as they dont actually address the issue.
I would actually be perfectly fine if they even make Tenebrous enchants just give 1%/2%/3% equiv of armor pen. They would still be much stronger than R10s because of diminishing returns, but this would be A step in the right direction since then based on the math,
5k encounter with (7*3%=21%) more damage boost = 6050 damage. More inline with R10s...
Point is they need a tone down. The people that defend them are just afraid of their build be nerfed because its OP and allowing them to perform exceptionally well in pvp.
This is just an example of how flowed your arguments are.
The amount that comes from tenes compared to the total amount people pay for everything else in in this game would not even put a dent into what is needed to make module 3.
Some of the people that have R9's, Tene's, and Perfect enchants earned them, and some of them bought them. But why would anyone need R9's tene's or perfects? There is only 1 reason, PvP. Marginalize the PvP players by making their already well paid for gear worthless and you will lose a very large portion of the paying customers.
Whether you like it or not, agree with or not, paying customers are the only reason this game will continue to exist.
The tenebrous enchant is not even a factor in premade vs. premade matches, unless 1 team has none and the other team has 49, in which case the first team should probably just go pug...
Whether the hardcore PvE people realize it or not, cryptic needs to keep the PvP'ers happy as well because they do quite a lot in the way of funding this game.
Also Tene's are not expensive JUST b/c they're overpowered. Let's assume the drop drop rate from lockboxes is 10% (from my personal experience it is a lot lower) and you need 16 of them for 1 greater. at 125 zen per key and 350 AD per zen that's 7 million AD per tene LOL. But they're only expensive b/c they're OP...
(16 lessers = 160 boxes: 160 keys * 125 zen = 20000 zen * 350 AD/zen exchange = 7 million AD)
Edit: @ayroux - That allows ALL your attacks to ignore 100% DR, 7 tene's with 35k HP deals 7350 damage every 20 seconds, how is that even comparable? Lol you're just being stupid at this point.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
(16 lessers = 160 boxes: 160 keys * 125 zen = 20000 zen * 350 AD/zen exchange = 7 million AD)
You also forgot the Wards it would take so your looking at adding atleast another 200k-400k depending on luck of the roll.
This is based on flawed assumptions. If this were true then for MONTHS after OB released lessers would NOT have been selling for 10k AD for so long and then slightly increased to 30k AD.
If was only until the popularity of the enchant and the strength became known that the enchant skyrocketted overnight (if I remember this was around July on Mindflayer)
When I upgraded my weapon initially from the lizard scimitar on my GF to the ancients weapon it was actually cheaper for me to MAKE a new regular teneb to put in there (way back in the day) than it was to pay the AD to unsocket it to use it. That just shows how cheap it was for so long.
It wasnt until after the prices blew up to 120k AS+ for a lesser that I remember I had it in my bank still socket-ed and paid to unsocket it to make a nice 60kish profit.
Point is, price is ALWAYS driven by perceived value, NOT attainability.
YOu can try your formula at a greater plague fire enchant and arrive at the same results roughly... But why are GREATERS selling for what? 1.6m-2m? Hmmm....
This MAY be just a rumor as I have not tested tenes in this way, but I have heard that if you disengage from combat (i.e. enter stealth for 3 or so seconds) the cool-down re-sets, making this already very powerful enchant ... get ready ... IMMMMMBAAAAAAAA!!!
Having faced extremely tanky TR's who still possess crazy dps, it would make sense.
You also forgot the Wards it would take so your looking at adding atleast another 200k-400k depending on luck of the roll.
This is based on flawed assumptions. If this were true then for MONTHS after OB released lessers would NOT have been selling for 10k AD for so long and then slightly increased to 30k AD.
If was only until the popularity of the enchant and the strength became known that the enchant skyrocketted overnight (if I remember this was around July on Mindflayer)
When I upgraded my weapon initially from the lizard scimitar on my GF to the ancients weapon it was actually cheaper for me to MAKE a new regular teneb to put in there (way back in the day) than it was to pay the AD to unsocket it to use it. That just shows how cheap it was for so long.
It wasnt until after the prices blew up to 120k AS+ for a lesser that I remember I had it in my bank still socket-ed and paid to unsocket it to make a nice 60kish profit.
Point is, price is ALWAYS driven by perceived value, NOT attainability.
YOu can try your formula at a greater plague fire enchant and arrive at the same results roughly... But why are GREATERS selling for what? 1.6m-2m? Hmmm....
UPDATED OP WITH AN ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION
GPF are selling for 2m because that's what people will pay for them. If it took you 100m to make something but the most anyone would ever offer you is 10m then the most you will ever get for it is 10m...
I have seen some R10's for sale for less than it costs to make a R10 as well, this is because people simply aren't willing to pay that much for one.
Prices are driven by supply and demand, which is as you said perceived value. But you made the assumption that R10's are worth so much more when in reality it costs less to create a R10 than it does to create a Gtene.
If you actually did a damage parse in PvP I believe it could easily proven that R10 Dark would give you as much or more sustained DPS as a Tene as long as you weren't already into heavy diminishing returns. The tene just frontloads the damage and it goes through soulforged which is why it's very popular. Taking into consideration the fact that the tene's effectiveness drops with your current HP I would say R10 would most definitely provide much more damage over the course of a PvP match.
The price of enchants is going to start dropping soon b/c of the fey blessing enchant also, I have some of these and they really let you rake in the R4 enchants lol.
There is one problem with the tenebrous enchant however. The fact that it is very strong and can be ran in viable PvP builds for every class for nice burst DPS makes it a very desirable enchant. The people who have it already do have a fair advantage over those that don't b/c of it's rarity and price inflation. These enchants need to be re-released in the next lockbox so that more players have a fair chance at getting one.
The fact that an enchant is both strong and now nearly impossible to get doesn't mean that everyone who has it already should be penalized, but that it should be made available once again to more people. Not to mention cryptic would make tons more zen sales by releasing another box that had them inside.
Edit: @rapssodya: I really don't think so, at least I haven't noticed this. The only actual bug with tene's is that they will proc even if your opponent completely dodges your attack. That is indeed overpowered and should be fixed.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
2100 power = around a 7% damage boost. Taking a 5k encounter to what, a 5350. Thats not a big deal.
2100 crit = (depends on where your at) but lets say 15% crit chance more. Lets say even with a perfect vorpal you have around 125% crit severity. Well that is a pretty big DPS boost of about 18-19% on average. That turns your encounter of 5k into 5950. Or since it would be a crit, youd just crit more, whcih translates into a damage boost.
2100 arp = around the same 15% more (depends where you are) damage. Well 5k = 5750.
BUT! 7 GTE? on a 30k HP character, that turns your 5k encounter into a 11,300.
It doesent end there even if you would get a dam boast that exeeded GTE it would still be far less as GTE ignore defence.
Doing 5k dam that is subject to both deflect and defence isent the same as doing 5k dam from GTE.
Burst is king in pvp and for the barkskin armor ench negating it its situational and CAN if lucky happen.
Get hit when GTE dont proc barskin extra hp lost GTE hits and do full dam so no it does not compleatly negate GTE it has a chanse to do if lucky.
It doesent end there even if you would get a dam boast that exeeded GTE it would still be far less as GTE ignore defence.
Doing 5k dam that is subject to both deflect and defence isent the same as doing 5k dam from GTE.
Burst is king in pvp and for the barkskin armor ench negating it its situational and CAN if lucky happen.
Get hit when GTE dont proc barskin extra hp lost GTE hits and do full dam so no it does not compleatly negate GTE it has a chanse to do if lucky.
All posts about tene damage are also misleading as well though. How often do you have sustained 100% HP in PvP? Every bit of lost HP is lost Tene damage as well. So while it does not get reduced by defenses the fact that a CW hit you with 2 encounters means your Tene's are doing half damage and will continue to do so until you wait around for regen, sit by the cleric, or run for the potion.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
If you actually did a damage parse in PvP I believe it could easily proven that R10 Dark would give you as much or more sustained DPS as a Tene as long as you weren't already into heavy diminishing returns. The tene just frontloads the damage and it goes through soulforged which is why it's very popular. Taking into consideration the fact that the tene's effectiveness drops with your current HP I would say R10 would most definitely provide much more damage over the course of a PvP match.
Except DPS isn't what kills in PvP, damage spikes are what kill people. That is what made Arms Warriors PvP beasts in vanilla WoW despite the fact Fury warriors did a lot more DPS. They could frontload their damage and if CC'd still had all that burst just sitting there waiting to unload. That is why deflect is so good in pvp despite the fact that it isn't very good mathematically. Just one deflect on burst chain many times makes all the difference as to whether you survive to heal up or not. Between regen, pots, mitigation, dodge/block/unstoppable, and external healing, there are a lot of ways to mitigate the damage of everything except Tenebrous.
Tenebrous are unmatched for that spike damage. And it is sudden spike damage that is just sitting there even if you CC the guy 20 seconds straight, the moment he comes out, boom. That damage is coming at you regardless of block/dodge/unstoppable/mitigation. It is a huge advantage to anyone except specific builds that does not have them. If that guy had been using rank 10 darks, azures, or radiants, he would still have to build his damage over time. A lockout like that would be devastating to him. Not only that, his damage gains from those rank 10s would be mitigated in some way.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Except DPS isn't what kills in PvP, damage spikes are what kill people. That is what made Arms Warriors PvP beasts in vanilla WoW despite the fact Fury warriors did a lot more DPS. They could frontload their damage and if CC'd still had all that burst just sitting there waiting to unload. That is why deflect is so good in pvp despite the fact that it isn't very good mathematically. Just one deflect on burst chain many times makes all the difference as to whether you survive to heal up or not. Between regen, pots, mitigation, dodge/block/unstoppable, and external healing, there are a lot of ways to mitigate the damage of everything except Tenebrous.
Tenebrous are unmatched for that spike damage. And it is sudden spike damage that is just sitting there even if you CC the guy 20 seconds straight, the moment he comes out, boom. That damage is coming at you regardless of block/dodge/unstoppable/mitigation. It is a huge advantage to anyone except specific builds that does not have them. If that guy had been using rank 10 darks, azures, or radiants, he would still have to build his damage over time. A lockout like that would be devastating to him. Not only that, his damage gains from those rank 10s would be mitigated in some way.
lol except that when CC'd he's taking damage, so even if he has 7 Gtene's if you drop him to 30% HP his tene's do 2205 and that's if he has 35K HP which only GWF's and a few GF's have.
That spike damage can easily be reduced to half or less with a few abilities from most classes, so if the enemy gets the first couple attacks off you are more likely to win with R10's than with Tene's.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Ayroux omg tene is so op it made me quit the game! I QQ so much when tene's are in pvp!
HAHAHAHA Gerfty you ****.
BTW, run an ACT or any sort of detailed combat tracker for total damage done in 1 pvp match, Ive seen and run these myself and on average of my TOTAL damage dealt as a GWf and a GF Tenebrous enchants account for about or MORE than 30% of your damage.
Dont believe me? Run it for yourself.
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kaoswpBanned Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 144Bounty Hunter
edited October 2013
Agreed that tenes need a nerf /: I try really hard not to complain, but these are WAY overpowered right now. Not the enchant itself, but what it allows people to do. It lets you stack everything to be more tanky(more hp, more DEF, more deflect) and still deal out good damage.
Honestly, I don't know why the Devs didn't see this coming..
lol except that when CC'd he's taking damage, so even if he has 7 Gtene's if you drop him to 30% HP his tene's do 2205 and that's if he has 35K HP which only GWF's and a few GF's have.
That spike damage can easily be reduced to half or less with a few abilities from most classes, so if the enemy gets the first couple attacks off you are more likely to win with R10's than with Tene's.
And if I have low health, I am generally just trying to survive. I rarely run around with low health in PvP unless being focused hard. If a cleric is around, that 50% health rapidly replenishes to 100%. I can pot/unstoppable/kite some and watch my health climb back up. If I had tenebrous, I wouldn't even need to worry about staying on my target to do my damage, but instead time my encounter rotation with tenebrous procs. Most builds with tenebrous are built in this manner, finding ways to get their health back up. But if my whole team builds around this concept, then who cares if the health of one guys goes down, because you still have 3-4 others at full. And if you spread your DPS, that cleric is going to keep them all at full.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
A dark will give more sustained dps....who gives a *****. In pvp BURST is king. Also you folks that say the tene buyers are funding this game....LOL. Go in Protectors Enclave....look at ALL the pets and stones. Those cost money. Pets/stones are not used in PVP...ergo they were purchased for PVE. Silly arguments about an enchant that is literally P2W.
A dark will give more sustained dps....who gives a *****. In pvp BURST is king. Also you folks that say the tene buyers are funding this game....LOL. Go in Protectors Enclave....look at ALL the pets and stones. Those cost money. Pets/stones are not used in PVP...ergo they were purchased for PVE. Silly arguments about an enchant that is literally P2W.
I think there is alot on both sides. Think about how much Ad it costs to get a R9 or R10 enchant, like ten million right? Well how much AD does it cost for the pets? Much less.
I agree its not solely tene users that fund this, thats a fallacious argument, but I also think that atleast HALF the Zen/AD bought in this game is primarily for the purpose of PVP. If not even more like 60-70%.
But as far as tenebrous enchants, I would say a SMALL percentage of revenue comes specifically from those enchants.
Comments
I know how it feels to get crushed by a button mush and going from 100 to 0 in a shot, but I don't think that Tenebrous are so game breaking that they affect the PvP balance. The only think that needs to be done, is a Ranking system, and a separation between casual and hardcore gamers (which will naturally follow the introduction of a ranking system).
If people feel the need to fork out real money and stack 7 enchants costing 80$ each or farming for months to get one, then who are we to stop them? But let them compete with other people that are willing to do so also.
Second, a GTE is around 4.000.000 AD. This makes it half as valuable as a Perfect Vorpal. A Perfect Vorpal is an OP thing in itself - however, developers were smart enough to make a single slot available for it, excluding other improvements for your weapon. Thisis proper design for an OP item - you make it so it doesn't stack and that it excludes the use of other OP items.
Now, take 7 offensive slots... and each can accommodate a GTE, and you still have room for the weapon enchant.
Some might say don't compare apples with eggs... however, this is not really a comparison, it is an attempt to quantify how valuable are GTEs for your offensive capabilities.
I'd say the market has it right. Having 7 GTEs is approximately like having 3 P.Vorpals, with the possibility of adding the 4th in the weapon socket.
This is just bad design for what is a very powerful enchant that should either be modified, or even better, should be made into a weapon enchant and slightly improved.
Third, people constantly ignore that the OP, ayroux, has used/using 7 GTEs on his GWF and maybe GF too. He is playing for a long time and is among the best PvPers in the game. So it's silly to try to ignore what he says or try to make it look like an ungeared 10 GS player got owned by some GTE user and now QQs in the forums. ayroux can easily go head to head with other GTE users from what I've seen from the little I've played with him and has beast characters.
So this is hardly a matter of complaining, this is a matter of an experienced player trying to improve balance in the game, at his own expense (since he has 7 GTEs...), so it's to be appreciated. It's a matter of sincere feedback from somebody that tested the GTEs extensively.
Now, there will always be resistance to such suggestions... because being OP is fun, there's no denying it. I know it very well myself, I'm hardly as fair as the OP is and I tried to defend HV stacking, just because I liked it, even as I understood it's a bit too good to stay. Who doesn't like power? And who wants to give it away? Basically nobody.
So there will NEVER be a winning argument here in this topic. Whatever truth will be said about the GTEs, people that use them will ignore it...
So you are angry that people are funding your continued free use of this game by spending $560 on Tene's alone for 1 character? What if everyone that paid for PvP just stopped... I doubt we'd ever see a module 3.
Ayroux is obviously talking about pug matches, matches in which his 7 tene's and knowledge of the game obviously allow for an easy victory. Any character in r9-10 enchants and perfect weapon/armor enchant will decimate everyone in a pug match. Put equally geared characters together however and Tene's are not the deciding factor of anything.
Nothing is dictated by financial concerns, money for AD is a way for people that are physically unable to play as much to still be able to earn high level gear. This is why new content continues to roll out and the game continue to prosper as free to play. You have just as much of an ability to farm and achieve Gtene's. I have been playing since open beta and it may have been a hard grind but I have managed to get some Perfects and Tene's while spending very minimal money.
Just as you argue that "it takes too long to farm that much" you also argue that we should just screw everyone that already farmed that much and nerf them into worthless.
dangit I responded to this thread again =/
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Wise.
To the "Cryptic using Tene as Cash farm" conspiracy theorists...
It makes no sense to make a GREATER enchant BIS. If this were truly the case, and they were just seeking more money, they would not make diminishing returns on stats and thus allow R10s to be amazing.
People say if they remove tene pugs will still get rolled by R9-R10 users, thats correct. However, the damage difference you gain from a R9 to a R10 is almost nothing its not even worth the AD.
A r10 costs an insane amount of AD. A greater tene is ONLY worth what it is, because of its power. Reduce the power and it reduced the worth. Back before people knew how good they were I could and did buy lesser tenes for 10k AD.... Thats right, 10k AD. Which if you do the math, you cna MAKE a grater tene for about 300k AD.
Can you make even a r8 for that? No. I have a character (TR) who doesnt use tenebs and uses R8s and Perf Vorpal. Hes pretty strong no doubt. However my Tene characters are by far, stronger than he is.
Overall it makes no sense to say they are keeping them OP for the cash, if that was so, they would promote PVP MUCH more in this game to get more people to play it to then sell the tenebs in lockboxes.
The fact they are not promoting pvp and the enchant is only good in pvp... makes no sense.
The teneb enchants need a reworking. MY OP goes along way in nerfing them, I have posted other ideas about buffing them in PVE like a shorter CD would help. As of right now they are pigeon holed in a pvp build because of their worthlessness in pve...
Balance the two sides and now you have a good enchant thats not breaking pvp.
I don't care what gear they're sporting, he clearly doesn't know how to play the game.
This is just an example of how flowed your arguments are.
The amount that comes from tenes compared to the total amount people pay for everything else in in this game would not even put a dent into what is needed to make module 3.
There is alot of threads why GTE are op and talking about other ench just showes that you have no clue what you are talking about. GTE removes defence and allowes burst dam that can not be defended against. Facing a team that focus fire means instant death nm what.
There are several premade teams out there that have GTE that actually fight pugs and somehow find it funny to obliterate them over and over. You can argue that they would still win but faced with a good working pug it would still be a fight about it, with the GTE:s its just a slaughter.
GTE removes dodge, port, block, unstoppeble, soulforged, defence, deflect etc etc they make skill go out the window. There is nothing in this game that comes near what GTE does.
Its like make a game for knife fights and through in some handgunes for a selective few(mostly old vetarans with gear advantage enough against new players).
The only reason for defending GTE is that you have them and that you like being OP end of storry.
If being OP by buying GTE is something that should be allowed is another discussion but dont compare GTE with other ench...
Nah man, where did I come as angry?
To be honest, I wish that invested time or even money in my char will guarantee no nerfing change, but this is an MMO that's constantly patched, so yeah...
I have argued against many other things that I include in the classic RPG "cheese" category, including my beloved Ice Knife. Tenes are momentarily the best cheese variety in the game, allowing build that should basically tickle to hit like a truck.
To shorten what I've said in my previous post, I'd just like the cheese to be dealt with, or isolated in a ladder and matchmaking system.
Until then, whatever, it's a game, I won't get angry for it
As for myself, the best cheese variety I'll enjoy will be a G. Vorpal. I bet I won't be playing this game by the time I would have enough AD for a Perfect.
You should watch his videos, and then judge what skills he has. Nice ad hominems.
noooooo!!!!!! Shhhhh!
It is, but GTENEs are available to anyone as far as I can see. Cryptic just offers a shortcut to people that want to jump in earlier. That's not Pay to Win, it's Pay to Skip Farming, which is fine in my book.
Nobody is ignoring the OP. It's hard to, since this thread pops every now and then and he keeps reminding us. However, we've spotted the same issue with GWFs and GFs that are not some of the best PvPers in the game and are not full of skill. They just happened to have the money or time to stack 7 G.Tene and the full suite of high HP and regeneration. The thing is that you can't see this in a void. If you make a group of all the GTENE stacking people that happen to be good at the game, put them in a competitive bracket, and let them feast on one another, then you instantly got balance.
Most MMOs are like that. Certain builds have no hope against others, and if you don't spec or gear up exactly as the given build then you are always a tier behind. I think that if you form a team of players that are willing to go hardcore on PvP, then you will balance things out. I will repeat what I think is the main problem imho. It's the lack of different pools for PvP. Now all the fish are in the same pool and you get guys that like to one-shot people that want to take it easier, run rampant against them.
If you just watch a Premade vs Premade with people that are uber-geared, you'll see balance. There is nothing bad with having top tier builds that are 'up-there' since it motivates people to achieve a goal (how much time would you think an average player would need to reach the 7 GTENE/P.Vorpal status?) or find a shortcut to do it (ZEN).
lets for the sake of argument say that any player with 6 Greater Tenes can "fuse" them and it becomes a main hand weapon called the "Tenebrous Destroyer". This weapon has 2000 top end damage and has a feature that make all of your attacks ignore 100% of your opponents DR.
Sounds Overpowered right? And you would be correct in saying it is so.
NOW, lets defend that sword using the exact same logic seen in this thread,
I think you see the point.
So based on the exact same logic, these players would and should hold (if being intellectually honest and consistent in their arguments" that this weapon should NOT be nerfed based upon the reasons above.
Unfortunately, anyone can clearly see that this hypothetical item WOULD break PVP and SHOULD be nerfed.
Just like tenebrous enchants, they truly are broken. I have used them for many months, they are extremely OP and even stacking ALL R10 enchants, you will not put out the same damage. Simple math will show that.
300 * 7 = 2100.
For simple math lets look at the numbers.
2100 power = around a 7% damage boost. Taking a 5k encounter to what, a 5350. Thats not a big deal.
2100 crit = (depends on where your at) but lets say 15% crit chance more. Lets say even with a perfect vorpal you have around 125% crit severity. Well that is a pretty big DPS boost of about 18-19% on average. That turns your encounter of 5k into 5950. Or since it would be a crit, youd just crit more, whcih translates into a damage boost.
2100 arp = around the same 15% more (depends where you are) damage. Well 5k = 5750.
BUT! 7 GTE? on a 30k HP character, that turns your 5k encounter into a 11,300.
Some say,
Part of the issue is you DONT need DPS in pvp, you need burst damage. Tenebs = burst damage. While yes they are HORRIBLE for DPS. The misconception in that comparison is you are always attacking AND that its a 20 sec CD. It is not a 20 sec CD, its a 20 second SERVERSIDE CD meaning you CAN get back to back procs completely blowing someone up with pure necrotic damage.
It IS overpowered in pvp. plain and simple.
Just because you can try and defend an overpowered item, the arguments clearly fall short when used in the same way to try and also defend a truly overpowered "hypothetical" item. Thus you cannot use the same arguments for Tenebrous enchants, as they dont actually address the issue.
I would actually be perfectly fine if they even make Tenebrous enchants just give 1%/2%/3% equiv of armor pen. They would still be much stronger than R10s because of diminishing returns, but this would be A step in the right direction since then based on the math,
5k encounter with (7*3%=21%) more damage boost = 6050 damage. More inline with R10s...
Point is they need a tone down. The people that defend them are just afraid of their build be nerfed because its OP and allowing them to perform exceptionally well in pvp.
Some of the people that have R9's, Tene's, and Perfect enchants earned them, and some of them bought them. But why would anyone need R9's tene's or perfects? There is only 1 reason, PvP. Marginalize the PvP players by making their already well paid for gear worthless and you will lose a very large portion of the paying customers.
Whether you like it or not, agree with or not, paying customers are the only reason this game will continue to exist.
The tenebrous enchant is not even a factor in premade vs. premade matches, unless 1 team has none and the other team has 49, in which case the first team should probably just go pug...
Whether the hardcore PvE people realize it or not, cryptic needs to keep the PvP'ers happy as well because they do quite a lot in the way of funding this game.
Also Tene's are not expensive JUST b/c they're overpowered. Let's assume the drop drop rate from lockboxes is 10% (from my personal experience it is a lot lower) and you need 16 of them for 1 greater. at 125 zen per key and 350 AD per zen that's 7 million AD per tene LOL. But they're only expensive b/c they're OP...
(16 lessers = 160 boxes: 160 keys * 125 zen = 20000 zen * 350 AD/zen exchange = 7 million AD)
Edit: @ayroux - That allows ALL your attacks to ignore 100% DR, 7 tene's with 35k HP deals 7350 damage every 20 seconds, how is that even comparable? Lol you're just being stupid at this point.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
You also forgot the Wards it would take so your looking at adding atleast another 200k-400k depending on luck of the roll.
This is based on flawed assumptions. If this were true then for MONTHS after OB released lessers would NOT have been selling for 10k AD for so long and then slightly increased to 30k AD.
If was only until the popularity of the enchant and the strength became known that the enchant skyrocketted overnight (if I remember this was around July on Mindflayer)
When I upgraded my weapon initially from the lizard scimitar on my GF to the ancients weapon it was actually cheaper for me to MAKE a new regular teneb to put in there (way back in the day) than it was to pay the AD to unsocket it to use it. That just shows how cheap it was for so long.
It wasnt until after the prices blew up to 120k AS+ for a lesser that I remember I had it in my bank still socket-ed and paid to unsocket it to make a nice 60kish profit.
Point is, price is ALWAYS driven by perceived value, NOT attainability.
YOu can try your formula at a greater plague fire enchant and arrive at the same results roughly... But why are GREATERS selling for what? 1.6m-2m? Hmmm....
UPDATED OP WITH AN ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION
Having faced extremely tanky TR's who still possess crazy dps, it would make sense.
GPF are selling for 2m because that's what people will pay for them. If it took you 100m to make something but the most anyone would ever offer you is 10m then the most you will ever get for it is 10m...
I have seen some R10's for sale for less than it costs to make a R10 as well, this is because people simply aren't willing to pay that much for one.
Prices are driven by supply and demand, which is as you said perceived value. But you made the assumption that R10's are worth so much more when in reality it costs less to create a R10 than it does to create a Gtene.
If you actually did a damage parse in PvP I believe it could easily proven that R10 Dark would give you as much or more sustained DPS as a Tene as long as you weren't already into heavy diminishing returns. The tene just frontloads the damage and it goes through soulforged which is why it's very popular. Taking into consideration the fact that the tene's effectiveness drops with your current HP I would say R10 would most definitely provide much more damage over the course of a PvP match.
The price of enchants is going to start dropping soon b/c of the fey blessing enchant also, I have some of these and they really let you rake in the R4 enchants lol.
There is one problem with the tenebrous enchant however. The fact that it is very strong and can be ran in viable PvP builds for every class for nice burst DPS makes it a very desirable enchant. The people who have it already do have a fair advantage over those that don't b/c of it's rarity and price inflation. These enchants need to be re-released in the next lockbox so that more players have a fair chance at getting one.
The fact that an enchant is both strong and now nearly impossible to get doesn't mean that everyone who has it already should be penalized, but that it should be made available once again to more people. Not to mention cryptic would make tons more zen sales by releasing another box that had them inside.
Edit: @rapssodya: I really don't think so, at least I haven't noticed this. The only actual bug with tene's is that they will proc even if your opponent completely dodges your attack. That is indeed overpowered and should be fixed.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
It doesent end there even if you would get a dam boast that exeeded GTE it would still be far less as GTE ignore defence.
Doing 5k dam that is subject to both deflect and defence isent the same as doing 5k dam from GTE.
Burst is king in pvp and for the barkskin armor ench negating it its situational and CAN if lucky happen.
Get hit when GTE dont proc barskin extra hp lost GTE hits and do full dam so no it does not compleatly negate GTE it has a chanse to do if lucky.
All posts about tene damage are also misleading as well though. How often do you have sustained 100% HP in PvP? Every bit of lost HP is lost Tene damage as well. So while it does not get reduced by defenses the fact that a CW hit you with 2 encounters means your Tene's are doing half damage and will continue to do so until you wait around for regen, sit by the cleric, or run for the potion.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Except DPS isn't what kills in PvP, damage spikes are what kill people. That is what made Arms Warriors PvP beasts in vanilla WoW despite the fact Fury warriors did a lot more DPS. They could frontload their damage and if CC'd still had all that burst just sitting there waiting to unload. That is why deflect is so good in pvp despite the fact that it isn't very good mathematically. Just one deflect on burst chain many times makes all the difference as to whether you survive to heal up or not. Between regen, pots, mitigation, dodge/block/unstoppable, and external healing, there are a lot of ways to mitigate the damage of everything except Tenebrous.
Tenebrous are unmatched for that spike damage. And it is sudden spike damage that is just sitting there even if you CC the guy 20 seconds straight, the moment he comes out, boom. That damage is coming at you regardless of block/dodge/unstoppable/mitigation. It is a huge advantage to anyone except specific builds that does not have them. If that guy had been using rank 10 darks, azures, or radiants, he would still have to build his damage over time. A lockout like that would be devastating to him. Not only that, his damage gains from those rank 10s would be mitigated in some way.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
lol except that when CC'd he's taking damage, so even if he has 7 Gtene's if you drop him to 30% HP his tene's do 2205 and that's if he has 35K HP which only GWF's and a few GF's have.
That spike damage can easily be reduced to half or less with a few abilities from most classes, so if the enemy gets the first couple attacks off you are more likely to win with R10's than with Tene's.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
HAHAHAHA Gerfty you ****.
BTW, run an ACT or any sort of detailed combat tracker for total damage done in 1 pvp match, Ive seen and run these myself and on average of my TOTAL damage dealt as a GWf and a GF Tenebrous enchants account for about or MORE than 30% of your damage.
Dont believe me? Run it for yourself.
Honestly, I don't know why the Devs didn't see this coming..
And if I have low health, I am generally just trying to survive. I rarely run around with low health in PvP unless being focused hard. If a cleric is around, that 50% health rapidly replenishes to 100%. I can pot/unstoppable/kite some and watch my health climb back up. If I had tenebrous, I wouldn't even need to worry about staying on my target to do my damage, but instead time my encounter rotation with tenebrous procs. Most builds with tenebrous are built in this manner, finding ways to get their health back up. But if my whole team builds around this concept, then who cares if the health of one guys goes down, because you still have 3-4 others at full. And if you spread your DPS, that cleric is going to keep them all at full.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I think there is alot on both sides. Think about how much Ad it costs to get a R9 or R10 enchant, like ten million right? Well how much AD does it cost for the pets? Much less.
I agree its not solely tene users that fund this, thats a fallacious argument, but I also think that atleast HALF the Zen/AD bought in this game is primarily for the purpose of PVP. If not even more like 60-70%.
But as far as tenebrous enchants, I would say a SMALL percentage of revenue comes specifically from those enchants.