This is D&D. Even if SOME games rely more on a PvP base, D&D has always been PvE and the fanbase for D&D - which is honestly overwhelming - will always make up for any drops in game population due to PvP being erased.
I'm a huge DnD fan. HUGE. But I don't think this is even remotely true. In fact, I can say with 100% certainty that this game has lost at least a hundred good players already from the couple guilds I associate with, simply due to them not expanding and improving on PvP yet.
And as far as PvE? There are better options out there. The Neverwinter IP, which is my favorite in DnD, is great. But the dungeons in this game aren't that good.
Easier still to go back to a virtual tabletop with a good DM and not worry about whether Spider is still bugged or whether the few developers will ever get a new class or paragon paths or a new set of dungeons released.
This is like having a great group, and a great DM, but the DM is only available to play once every six months.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
only the games which had BIG pvp part (equal to pve) were successful enough to last some years. all others died soon or have minor population. so do you want this to last or not?
This is a pretty broad statement, though not necessarily untrue. Many of the first MMOs have an equal part PvP and PvE because they were modeled after WoW. They've survived for a good long time because they showed up when MMOs were still young and they got a good fan base. It's not the mix that made them survive, it's the fact that they were around before there were twenty million MMOs to pick from.
Even now many new games have a strong balanced PvP/PvE mix. It won't be what makes them live or die though. That depends entirely on whether or not a game manages to get a solid fan base, and manages to make the owning company money.
It's not a question of how strong PvP/PvE balanced games are. When a game fully supports PvP, either by being mixed or by being fully Player vs Player (sorry, abbreviating too many times just feels funny), then the PvP feels right.
The argument is that Neverwinter isn't a PvP balanced game. It is strongly a PvE game that has a PvP element. OPs original argument, that started this thread, is that PvE players shouldn't be strongly supported. That they in fact should just stay home and play Skyrim (Paraphrasing). That is the concept that got folks riled up. It got me a bit riled at least.
And I apologize, cause I think that during my comments on this, I've personally offended at least one person.
But that said. OP wanted a game that supports only the PvP element. They aren't wrong to want that, but to suggest it's done at the expense of PvE is unfair; especially in a game that is meant to be strongly PvE. Their comments that no one comes to Neverwinter for the PvE element is incorrect. I think the thread has shown that.
The majority of my time was spent grinding in order to even get to the main city + exploring, in PWI, and crafting and socializing while questing - and, thus, grinding - as well as exploring...in FW.
Show me when, exactly, those games turned into slaughterhouses. I'd like to see it - because despite years of playing both games, even through Sebestimation, I've never seen PvP as a major thing...even in the chats.
--
Now, I would understand it if you stated Cryptic was more PvP, since that IS an option, but taking CoH for example...you have to go through, what, how many areas in order to get to the other faction's lands and PvP them?
Wait wait wait....so u telling me u FARMED your r9+12??? LOL yeah...ok.
Lemme guess, u were on sanctuary or the other PVE server which i forgot the name?
Its ok if thats the case...then you wouldn't know the constant pvp in Lost City server, the constant battle between 2 factions for the territory maps? Conqueror vs Bloddlust to Vengeful vs essence/ ring a bell/ or you were in some small weird guild not interested in town war and such?
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Wait wait wait....so u telling me u FARMED your r9+12??? LOL yeah...ok.
Lemme guess, u were on sanctuary or the other PVE server which i forgot the name?
Its ok if thats the case...then you wouldn't know the constant pvp in Lost City server, the constant battle between 2 factions for the territory maps? Conqueror vs Bloddlust to Vengeful vs essence/ ring a bell/ or you were in some small weird guild not interested in town war and such?
. . . . . So because a PvP server exists it discounts any legitimacy of the PvE players on a PvE server? Ah, yes.. that makes perfect sense... not. For the record, I've played all those games for years as well and have never once PvP'd in them. There are only two RPG style games in which I miss the PvP action from. They are Ultima Online (pre-trammel) and Shadowbane. I'd rather go play a fully PvP game when I want to PvP rather than play a PvE-based game for PvP.
[QUOTE=ggyu;6269441
So Let's talk for real,Online games isn't all about Pve It about Pvp more than pve really,
Why you think people Come to online games ??
[/QUOTE]
I hate and despise PvP, I am here only for the PvE part. If there were no items or gains in PvP I would not ruin others experience by being a bad PvP player. And for you - you would also have no bots in PvP without AD or items to get.
PvP is the reason why classes get nerfed (and monsters stay the same) so that a dungeon takes with each month longer to finish.
Imaginary Friends are the best friends you can have!
. . . . . So because a PvP server exists it discounts any legitimacy of the PvE players on a PvE server? Ah, yes.. that makes perfect sense... not. For the record, I've played all those games for years as well and have never once PvP'd in them. There are only two RPG style games in which I miss the PvP action from. They are Ultima Online (pre-trammel) and Shadowbane. I'd rather go play a fully PvP game when I want to PvP rather than play a PvE-based game for PvP.
Point taken, my apologies if my tone was abit condesending.
HOWEVER, was it NOT beautiful? You were on your pve server, completely oblivious to what was going on in the pvp servers, and vice versa for me.
Didn't that WORK?
It's simply GOOD BUISNESS if u ask me.
and i believe THIS would solve all the nonsense of balancing blah blah yadda yadda.....SIMPLE. Create a PVP enabled server, give us the ability to transfer our chars over, and we all go our merry way doing the things we LOVE.
Sounds good to me!
Hope the devs consider this.
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
So I'm here to talk about Neverwinter basic Gameplay Which From my point of view is Pure Pve Game style...
Every Week I see update Which also about Foundry or Dung.....
So Let's talk for real,Online games isn't all about Pve It about Pvp more than pve really,
Why you think people Come to online games ??
May I remond you to the mother of all MMO CRPG - Ultima online?
First there was Felluca, a PvP zone where everyone could kill everyone, with small restrictions and if you were a murderer death came at a price. But people did not enjoy PvP. So they set a copy of the world, named it Trammel. No PvP there.
Then there came new content in 1998 in the form of Ilshendar.
Again a PvP free zone.
And it took Origin a long time to kill UO. But it certainly was not the PvE that killed it. More the constant ganking of overpowered players in PvP zones, and the fact that certain achievements could only be gathered in PvP zones.
And I also am certainly not here to PvP. Don't like that kind of Robert comparisons on the PC.
Point taken, my apologies if my tone was abit condesending.
HOWEVER, was it NOT beautiful? You were on your pve server, completely oblivious to what was going on in the pvp servers, and vice versa for me.
Didn't that WORK?
It's simply GOOD BUISNESS if u ask me.
and i believe THIS would solve all the nonsense of balancing blah blah yadda yadda.....SIMPLE. Create a PVP enabled server, give us the ability to transfer our chars over, and we all go our merry way doing the things we LOVE.
Sounds good to me!
Hope the devs consider this.
Sadly, not me. I'm not looking for PvP all the time. I'd stick on a server that has PvP like this, only with more content.
I played UO. I miss the times, the adventures, the feeling of progression. I do NOT miss the gankage. I learned to take off those rosy glasses a long time ago.
To masamundane: I'm stuck reading your post, hoping my reading comprehension is off. 'Many of the first MMO's?' Surely you mean UO, SWG, DAOC, EQ, EvE Online, etc?
The real trend there was that the first MMO's were almost exclusively pro-PvP, or had full-time PvP in some form or fashion. MMO's began drifting away from this steadily (UO, SWG, EQ), until the release of World of Warcraft, which took the most popular examples made by five great years of gaming and wrapped them in one package.
I often refer to pre-WoW as the golden age of MMORPG's. Then WoW came out, and everybody seemed to model what they produced after it. Homogenized character classes, PvP servers, battlegrounds ... all the most popular features, very little ingenuity.
As an old MMO guy, I've grown accustomed to having PvP available. I see it as an MMO standard, and don't remember a game I've played recently that didn't have it (maybe CoH, before CoV was released).
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
May I remond you to the mother of all MMO CRPG - Ultima online?
First there was Felluca, a PvP zone where everyone could kill everyone, with small restrictions and if you were a murderer death came at a price. But people did not enjoy PvP. So they set a copy of the world, named it Trammel. No PvP there.
Then there came new content in 1998 in the form of Ilshendar.
Again a PvP free zone.
And it took Origin a long time to kill UO. But it certainly was not the PvE that killed it. More the constant ganking of overpowered players in PvP zones, and the fact that certain achievements could only be gathered in PvP zones.
And I also am certainly not here to PvP. Don't like that kind of Robert comparisons on the PC.
Don't forget: UO subscriptions took a sharp plummet with the introduction of Trammel, and while the game continues on and is still one of the best out there in my opinion, it's a shadow of it's former glory in many eyes.
Not that I liked the ganking. Rose-tinted glasses and all that stuff ...
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
To masamundane: I'm stuck reading your post, hoping my reading comprehension is off. 'Many of the first MMO's?' Surely you mean UO, SWG, DAOC, EQ, EvE Online, etc?
Yeah, I wrote that one sentence badly, but you're stuck? You can just skip over it and read that rest of the post since I quickly move away from that point. It might actually be you reading comprehension, you know, if a sentence stops you like that.
On a side note, as has been noted by other posters before, anyone who claims that D&D as a whole is an exclusively PvE franchise should really expand their RP horizons. Some of my most memorable "encounters" in pen-and-paper mode involve some degree of PC conflict. Some adventuring parties are true bands of heroic, mutually friendly characters. Others...a bit more dysfunction junction :P
I get you. I understand. I don't wholly hate PvP. In fact, in some games, like RuneScape, PvP has had its own unique culture in the game that DOES NOT affect the PvE experience.
I've also read some Dragonlance books. I've seen PROPER PvP in a D&D series. It's amazing.
The problem we have here, however, is that Neverwinter itself was not designed to have a cult following for PvP. It was meant to be a bunch of STORIES surrounding the city at this point in time in a way that happened to REQUIRE a PvE experience.
The OP wants this game to be exclusively PvP. This game isn't made to be exclusively PvP. That is the issue here.
Want to play a game that focuses solely on PvP? There are tons out there. S4 League, LOCO, even Scarlet Blade has some of the best slaughterfests out there. But Neverwinter is not meant to focus on PvP. So that idea, which is what the OP is suggesting, was never plausible to being with.
I get you. I understand. I don't wholly hate PvP. In fact, in some games, like RuneScape, PvP has had its own unique culture in the game that DOES NOT affect the PvE experience.
I've also read some Dragonlance books. I've seen PROPER PvP in a D&D series. It's amazing.
The problem we have here, however, is that Neverwinter itself was not designed to have a cult following for PvP. It was meant to be a bunch of STORIES surrounding the city at this point in time in a way that happened to REQUIRE a PvE experience.
The OP wants this game to be exclusively PvP. This game isn't made to be exclusively PvP. That is the issue here.
Want to play a game that focuses solely on PvP? There are tons out there. S4 League, LOCO, even Scarlet Blade has some of the best slaughterfests out there. But Neverwinter is not meant to focus on PvP. So that idea, which is what the OP is suggesting, was never plausible to being with.
I would 100% argue against anyone stating that this game needs to be full PvP.
An update would be nice, however. The PvP in this game is spectacular, especially with it's combat system and team focus (I prefer Battlefield over Call of Duty for the exact same reasons). A matchmaking system, a few new maps and gametypes, and some larger 10v10 or zone fights ... easily the best PvP in any MMO I've seen recently. My opinion, of course.
"Every adventurer has two things in common: they don't like dying, and they love getting paid. The rest is just semantics." Brecken, famed mercenary of Baldur's Gate
Comments
I'm a huge DnD fan. HUGE. But I don't think this is even remotely true. In fact, I can say with 100% certainty that this game has lost at least a hundred good players already from the couple guilds I associate with, simply due to them not expanding and improving on PvP yet.
And as far as PvE? There are better options out there. The Neverwinter IP, which is my favorite in DnD, is great. But the dungeons in this game aren't that good.
Easier still to go back to a virtual tabletop with a good DM and not worry about whether Spider is still bugged or whether the few developers will ever get a new class or paragon paths or a new set of dungeons released.
This is like having a great group, and a great DM, but the DM is only available to play once every six months.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
This is a pretty broad statement, though not necessarily untrue. Many of the first MMOs have an equal part PvP and PvE because they were modeled after WoW. They've survived for a good long time because they showed up when MMOs were still young and they got a good fan base. It's not the mix that made them survive, it's the fact that they were around before there were twenty million MMOs to pick from.
Even now many new games have a strong balanced PvP/PvE mix. It won't be what makes them live or die though. That depends entirely on whether or not a game manages to get a solid fan base, and manages to make the owning company money.
It's not a question of how strong PvP/PvE balanced games are. When a game fully supports PvP, either by being mixed or by being fully Player vs Player (sorry, abbreviating too many times just feels funny), then the PvP feels right.
The argument is that Neverwinter isn't a PvP balanced game. It is strongly a PvE game that has a PvP element. OPs original argument, that started this thread, is that PvE players shouldn't be strongly supported. That they in fact should just stay home and play Skyrim (Paraphrasing). That is the concept that got folks riled up. It got me a bit riled at least.
And I apologize, cause I think that during my comments on this, I've personally offended at least one person.
But that said. OP wanted a game that supports only the PvP element. They aren't wrong to want that, but to suggest it's done at the expense of PvE is unfair; especially in a game that is meant to be strongly PvE. Their comments that no one comes to Neverwinter for the PvE element is incorrect. I think the thread has shown that.
I draw as Masamundane.
Wait wait wait....so u telling me u FARMED your r9+12??? LOL yeah...ok.
Lemme guess, u were on sanctuary or the other PVE server which i forgot the name?
Its ok if thats the case...then you wouldn't know the constant pvp in Lost City server, the constant battle between 2 factions for the territory maps? Conqueror vs Bloddlust to Vengeful vs essence/ ring a bell/ or you were in some small weird guild not interested in town war and such?
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
So Let's talk for real,Online games isn't all about Pve It about Pvp more than pve really,
Why you think people Come to online games ??
[/QUOTE]
I hate and despise PvP, I am here only for the PvE part. If there were no items or gains in PvP I would not ruin others experience by being a bad PvP player. And for you - you would also have no bots in PvP without AD or items to get.
PvP is the reason why classes get nerfed (and monsters stay the same) so that a dungeon takes with each month longer to finish.
Point taken, my apologies if my tone was abit condesending.
HOWEVER, was it NOT beautiful? You were on your pve server, completely oblivious to what was going on in the pvp servers, and vice versa for me.
Didn't that WORK?
It's simply GOOD BUISNESS if u ask me.
and i believe THIS would solve all the nonsense of balancing blah blah yadda yadda.....SIMPLE. Create a PVP enabled server, give us the ability to transfer our chars over, and we all go our merry way doing the things we LOVE.
Sounds good to me!
Hope the devs consider this.
First there was Felluca, a PvP zone where everyone could kill everyone, with small restrictions and if you were a murderer death came at a price. But people did not enjoy PvP. So they set a copy of the world, named it Trammel. No PvP there.
Then there came new content in 1998 in the form of Ilshendar.
Again a PvP free zone.
And it took Origin a long time to kill UO. But it certainly was not the PvE that killed it. More the constant ganking of overpowered players in PvP zones, and the fact that certain achievements could only be gathered in PvP zones.
And I also am certainly not here to PvP. Don't like that kind of Robert comparisons on the PC.
Sadly, not me. I'm not looking for PvP all the time. I'd stick on a server that has PvP like this, only with more content.
I played UO. I miss the times, the adventures, the feeling of progression. I do NOT miss the gankage. I learned to take off those rosy glasses a long time ago.
To masamundane: I'm stuck reading your post, hoping my reading comprehension is off. 'Many of the first MMO's?' Surely you mean UO, SWG, DAOC, EQ, EvE Online, etc?
The real trend there was that the first MMO's were almost exclusively pro-PvP, or had full-time PvP in some form or fashion. MMO's began drifting away from this steadily (UO, SWG, EQ), until the release of World of Warcraft, which took the most popular examples made by five great years of gaming and wrapped them in one package.
I often refer to pre-WoW as the golden age of MMORPG's. Then WoW came out, and everybody seemed to model what they produced after it. Homogenized character classes, PvP servers, battlegrounds ... all the most popular features, very little ingenuity.
As an old MMO guy, I've grown accustomed to having PvP available. I see it as an MMO standard, and don't remember a game I've played recently that didn't have it (maybe CoH, before CoV was released).
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Don't forget: UO subscriptions took a sharp plummet with the introduction of Trammel, and while the game continues on and is still one of the best out there in my opinion, it's a shadow of it's former glory in many eyes.
Not that I liked the ganking. Rose-tinted glasses and all that stuff ...
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters
Yeah, I wrote that one sentence badly, but you're stuck? You can just skip over it and read that rest of the post since I quickly move away from that point. It might actually be you reading comprehension, you know, if a sentence stops you like that.
I draw as Masamundane.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I get you. I understand. I don't wholly hate PvP. In fact, in some games, like RuneScape, PvP has had its own unique culture in the game that DOES NOT affect the PvE experience.
I've also read some Dragonlance books. I've seen PROPER PvP in a D&D series. It's amazing.
The problem we have here, however, is that Neverwinter itself was not designed to have a cult following for PvP. It was meant to be a bunch of STORIES surrounding the city at this point in time in a way that happened to REQUIRE a PvE experience.
The OP wants this game to be exclusively PvP. This game isn't made to be exclusively PvP. That is the issue here.
Want to play a game that focuses solely on PvP? There are tons out there. S4 League, LOCO, even Scarlet Blade has some of the best slaughterfests out there. But Neverwinter is not meant to focus on PvP. So that idea, which is what the OP is suggesting, was never plausible to being with.
I would 100% argue against anyone stating that this game needs to be full PvP.
An update would be nice, however. The PvP in this game is spectacular, especially with it's combat system and team focus (I prefer Battlefield over Call of Duty for the exact same reasons). A matchmaking system, a few new maps and gametypes, and some larger 10v10 or zone fights ... easily the best PvP in any MMO I've seen recently. My opinion, of course.
"D*mn wizards," said Morik the Rogue.
Learn what a GWF and GF really are: The History of Fighters