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Garrundar the Vile - Healers
ambisinisterr
Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
I finally did this skirmish again for the first time since Open Beta. It was actually my favorite skirmish but after what I just went through I'm...well my face is red with anger.
I am just going to be blundt: Put a cooldown on the Mystik's Heal!
That's right, as far as I saw there isn't a cooldown to speak of. The Mystiks don't even finish the animation before they start healing again. Not cool.
This made it so that the only option was the throw them off the cliff. Two rogues and a GWF could not out-DPS a solitary Mystik due to the lack of a cooldown of any sort. As we tried to kill it the Mystik remained at full health with healing animations occurring as quickly as our swords were swinging. To further complicate matters the party did not get a wizard so it took 5 minutes to instruct the cleric how and where to use Divine Sunburst .
By the time we got all but two off the cliff Garrundar was already full health again.
It sucked but it was still doable. Unfortunately an inexperienced player who refused to listen to the party tried to throw in the hat. They were under the false impression that it would be easier to reset the fight than continue after the dragon was full health. I can't fathom why they would insist dealing with a full health dragon and all of the healers again would be easier than dealing with a full health dragon and two of the healers.
Being that they were the only person who felt this way they rage quit along with another party member.
I spent 50 minutes in this skirmish and three manned the dragon.
This is entirely more anger than I would like to put into a post but, yeah, I'm not happy. The thing is, as much as I would like to be angry at the rage quitter the blame lies on the fact that there's no cooldown on the heal to speak of. If each Mystik could only cast their AOE heal once every 10-15 seconds the fight would be fine but gods would be envious of the healing ability on those "trash mobs."
Anybody else have similar experiences recently?
While I remember it was extremely hard to contend with the Mystiks back in Open Beta it was still possible.
I am just going to be blundt: Put a cooldown on the Mystik's Heal!
That's right, as far as I saw there isn't a cooldown to speak of. The Mystiks don't even finish the animation before they start healing again. Not cool.
This made it so that the only option was the throw them off the cliff. Two rogues and a GWF could not out-DPS a solitary Mystik due to the lack of a cooldown of any sort. As we tried to kill it the Mystik remained at full health with healing animations occurring as quickly as our swords were swinging. To further complicate matters the party did not get a wizard so it took 5 minutes to instruct the cleric how and where to use Divine Sunburst .
By the time we got all but two off the cliff Garrundar was already full health again.
It sucked but it was still doable. Unfortunately an inexperienced player who refused to listen to the party tried to throw in the hat. They were under the false impression that it would be easier to reset the fight than continue after the dragon was full health. I can't fathom why they would insist dealing with a full health dragon and all of the healers again would be easier than dealing with a full health dragon and two of the healers.
Being that they were the only person who felt this way they rage quit along with another party member.
I spent 50 minutes in this skirmish and three manned the dragon.
This is entirely more anger than I would like to put into a post but, yeah, I'm not happy. The thing is, as much as I would like to be angry at the rage quitter the blame lies on the fact that there's no cooldown on the heal to speak of. If each Mystik could only cast their AOE heal once every 10-15 seconds the fight would be fine but gods would be envious of the healing ability on those "trash mobs."
Anybody else have similar experiences recently?
While I remember it was extremely hard to contend with the Mystiks back in Open Beta it was still possible.
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And as for your intended stab, I played before that heal debuff existed. It was necessary. Like it or not.
Overpowered is overpowered.
Cleric were never in danger because they could literally outheal anything.
Anything other than a self-heal debuff such as increased cooldowns would have severely impacted their ability to solo or decreased their ability to keep the rest of the group alive.
The only problem with Righteousness is that it's worded as a debuff rather than a buff.
Which in either event is off topic.
Possibly. I don't recall seeing them casting their heal nonstop but it's possible that the various balance changes since Open Beta have severely decreased a party's ability to contend with this fight without taking advantage of knock-offs.
Really it's fairly typical of the slightly lazier add-mechanics in a lot of this game:
"let's have an enemy that can do 60% of a player's health in a single gap-closer attack"
Sounds harsh, but managable?
"oh, and let's have them spawn in packs of 6, every 30 seconds"
...oookaaaay.
There seems to be very little thought involved in how mobs synergise. A single AoE healer is a priority target. A pack of AoE healers is a car crash of unkillability.
You need a CW for this fight, plain and simple. Well actually, you don't really. a good cleric can probably pull it off. But for most, just take a CW. one that knows how to use CC spells. one that realizes Arcane singularity is NOT a CC spell and that it's the worst spell to use in this encounter, unless you are specifically trying to throw them all off of the cliff.
They are mobs. they are dumb. They have the same dumb AI that your combat companion has. you have to be 10% smarter than your AI companion to succeed. sorry this is hard for some people.
The idea of "thinking smart" should be "ok, we don't have the 'easy way' available, so we're gonna have to do some outside the box thinking", not "we cannot do this because the random queue system has given us terrible party composition".
GF with Frontline Surge and Bull's Charge works wonderfully in this skirmish.
My thoughts exactly. The random queue did not give us a wizard. If Cryptic wanted to make it a requirement to knock off edges or chain CC an NPC they'd give us a control wizard. They didn't.
Which is the point.
Please don't talk to me as if I am new to the game. I have beaten every dungeon within the game and all of my level 60 characters are fully equipped. The problem isn't not knowing how to deal with it, the problem is the outright requirement at such a low level where green players are suddenly completely out of their league.
Now if you have the players who can organize knocking off, kudos. That's great. If I was a CW or DC in that fight I would have had no problem but I have a lot more experience than the DC we had and she earned my respect for sticking with it and figuring out exactly how to deal with the Mystiks through my instructions...
But in a skirmish, a lower level one at that, it doesn't make any sense to have knock-offs an outright requirement because, as you agree, there's no way to out-dps the heal.
Rabbinicus, I know you should know better.
This is a level 45 Skirmish or so at highest. There's no such thing as Bull Rush.
And Frontline Surge is a mediocre push at best, but I even equipped roar mid fight just to do anything I could to get some addintional pushes haha. I wasn't given a CW so I did what I could with the worst pushing class in the game.
P.S. - Off Topic - I haven't spoken to you in a few weeks. Congratulations on you know what.
Yeah, a GF and DC can replace the CW "requirement." Even GWFs can with roar.
It has nothing to do with knocking off ledges. it's about seperating the mobs. Their AI is bad, just as bad as your combat companions. Your complaint is they spam cast heal. They are a ranged class, they cannot move while spam casting, but more importantly, they won't move because they are flagged as a range class. Again, there is nothing wrong with this encounter, just because you are not smart enough to figure out how to beat it. again, you only need to be smarter than the AI.
It can be done with any competent group, regardless of group composition. Asking for a competent group from randomly queuing is asking for too much. There is this cancerous idea going around that any 5 monkeys the queue puts together should be able to beat all content in this game. You're lucky if everyone speaks the same language, much less has a clue on how to play. This should not be the baseline difficulty setting.
Because a level 45 skirmish is exactly the same as endgame content? Seems a tad restrictive to start hitting poorly composed groups with the "L2P NUBS"-bat before they've even reached 60. Mad dragon and wolf den are bad enough as it is, but at least they're dungeons.
If anything, lower level skirmishes should be harder around the same time that lower level dungeons become harder. Stop trying to nerf everything to stupid level easy.
Thanks!
Oy, that tells you how long it has been since I took a GF into that one. And my level of exhaustion due to the you know what.
I used Frontline Surge in there to great effect, as I recall using a lot of knock-offs in there. But there are better pushes. Certainly better with other options, but I think we coordinated pushes and FS was the final knockback for some of them.
Stop accusing me of demanding nerfs. Stop being so idiotic. You've already tried to conflate difficulty level with cancer. Just..stop.
Difficulty in this game is not extreme, this is not news. It is, however, very granular. Pugging your average dungeon (with the exception of perhaps karrundax) ramps up from "I could do this by pressing keys with my nose" to "aaaaand...wipe" as soon as you hit the boss room. Your group's performance in the dungeon itself is essentially no indication of how successfully you'll handle the boss. This is bad design.
There is also granularity in the dungeons themselves: cloak tower is incredibly easy noseplay territory as it should be, castle never is a hell of a lot more challenging, but the progression is not linear. Mad dragon and wolf den are noticably harder than both the dungeons preceding them (as they should be) AND the dungeons after them (as they shouldn't be). This is bad design.
I'm happy with a steadily increasing difficulty curve, sure. A gradual slope of increasing difficulty is a great way to train players for endgame content. This is more like a gradual slope of increasing difficulty with occasional inexplicable steel-toecap groin kicks.
Thus I'm entirely unsurprised that something like "AoE healers with 0.5sec power cooldown who can pretty much ONLY be killed by cliff punting or FULL ZOMG COOPERATION" would present a surprising difficulty spike. Arguing that everyone at this point should know to bring exactly the correct party makeup, and all speak to each other...is a bit odd given that this is barely ever required for any skirmish.
It's not about how difficult, it's about when.
Admittedly, this is easily one of the longest Skirmishes in the game, even longer than the Hotenow one with a new group!
Am I missing something?
Thanks, fondlez.
I would have to agree. I thought the Storm Front skirmish, which is the one immediately after Garrundar, was much easier. Heck, Master of the Hunt doesn't require the level of coordination that is demanded of Garrundar.
Edit: Yes, Battle for the Bridge is much harder even than Master of the Hunt. Don't think I even managed to complete that one. Don't know what is going on with the spikes in difficulty.
lol, I can feel your pain. I HATE not being CW in that Skirmish!
When I would do this one leveling up my CW, I was never placed in a group that had enough DPS to burn down the dragon faster than the healers could heal him. So you had to get rid of the healers first.
I am pretty certain the aoe heals have a very limited range. You just need to kite them away from the Dragon.
Hence the discussion about using one of the 4 classes which have some form of substantial knock back to seperate the healers away from everything.
You can of course still kite them away. Yet another option.
But no, since you can't outDPS them and the queue gave the OP a group that couldn't ledge them, then the encounter should totally be nerfed to casual so untrained monkeys the queue system gives you can do it.
the encounter requires at least 1 competent person to explain how the game works to the other 4 people. obviously your queue didn't give you what was needed.
We essentially did the skirmish with 3 people. It took a stupidly long time because by the time I got the rest of the team to do what had to be done two of them got irritated and left.
That's not good. You can argue it's possible all you want but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be toned down so that it's not like throwing sheep to the wolves.
With that they should be managable. As they cant cast that spell while being CC'd and the whole team wont have to focus on one, and can split into two or one person on one and should be able to handle them.
And be able to pull them away from the other monsters.
This is a prime example as to why a 40% self heal reduction is necessary for Clerics.