extremely limited range and they will still stand there and cast when knocked way out of range of anything, healing nothing.
Hence the discussion about using one of the 4 classes which have some form of substantial knock back to seperate the healers away from everything.
You can of course still kite them away. Yet another option.
But no, since you can't outDPS them and the queue gave the OP a group that couldn't ledge them, then the encounter should totally be nerfed to casual so untrained monkeys the queue system gives you can do it.
the encounter requires at least 1 competent person to explain how the game works to the other 4 people. obviously your queue didn't give you what was needed.
In my mind anyway, what distinguished a "skirmish" from a "dungeon" was that the latter was supposed to be much more hardcore and require a deeper level of communication and teamwork in order for the team to succeed. A skirmish however was supposed to be more fun and not quite as intense. Am I thinking of them wrong?
I really don't think every single piece of group content in the game should require premades and detailed coordination in order to succeed.
I think they should be given the same 40% heal reduction as clerics.
With that they should be managable. As they cant cast that spell while being CC'd and the whole team wont have to focus on one, and can split into two or one person on one and should be able to handle them.
And be able to pull them away from the other monsters.
This is a prime example as to why a 40% self heal reduction is necessary for Clerics.
They also have no cooldown and a much more efficient heal than players.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Can one post picture of the instance of the topic? I don't know what instance you are all talking about. I don't remember anything fail like you stated - but maybe i don't done this or it was a long time ago.
I have mixed feelings about the 'difficulty' of this skirmish.
On the one hand the fact that it requires communication of a strategy between team members is awesome. One of my favourite skirmishes to do across various classes.
But sadly the poor experience I think a lot of players had causes them to not take part in the next few levels of skirmishes (judging by the Qing difficulty I always had from this point onwards), even though they become simple zerg fests again for a while.
There are multiple effective strategies for taking the healers out of the game: split them, kite them, kettle them, punt them etc. I'd suggest one problem is that you don't see as powerful a pair of healers in the PVE zone this skirmish lives in, so players really don't realise how essential it is to neutralise their impact. Is it possible they are toned down in the general content area?
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inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
It's in the pirate's skyhold area, lizardman skirmish. The healers do exist in the regular zone but ofc they are toned down (solo content vs group).
I view skirmishes as a few packs of trash and a boss encounter. I don't see a difference between a skirmish boss vs a dungeon boss. Some skirmishes have far more complex boss encounters than dungeon bosses.
One of the most complained about issues when it comes to bosses is that they aren't very creative, "just add spawn central boohoohoo". Yeah boss mechanics usually revolve around adds but there's actually a lot of creativity and variation when it comes to the encounters, the boss mechanics, the types of adds that spawn, the different strategies need to beat them. The problem is everyone approaches them the exact same way and whine like a girl with a skinned knee when "I just keep swinging my sword and we wipe wut happen?" doesn't work for every single encounter they come across.
The sad thing is that once you are well geared in a good group, "just kill everything" does work, because you can overcome all these nuances in the encounter with more dps/cc which to a CW or especially a CW heavy group is the exact same thing.
In the pirates skyhold area i don't do anything of dungeon/skirmish. But GWF and TR have throw skills to. If they don't skill that, it's their problem. Only if you have to bump up the enemy and then to bump away to death, then they have no change. But so all 5 classes can throw over edges.
The pirates skyhold area don't do anything of dungeon/skirmish. But GWF and TR have throw skills to. If they don't skill that, it's their problem. Only if you have to bump up the enemy and then to bump away to death, then they have no change. But so all 5 classes can throw over edges.
I do not think you have done this skirmish. There are plenty of Youtube videos for Garrunder the Vile if you would like to see some of what is involved.
Yes, it is a Pirate's Skyhold skirmish. It is level 42-45 in queue which is the same as the Pirate's Skyhold questing zone.
Finally, bumping things is not required at all. Just one more thing some like to do to kill an encounter faster. In all the times I have done it, no one in the group asked for or did bumping and it was successfully completed.
So, unless something has changed post-Feywild...
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2013
Here's a video of the fight from way back when LadySylvia.
However it's to be noted this was the difficulty at what I remember. Slight issue with the healers but not the mess I had to deal with yesterday.
And as for the GWF and TR "throw skills," I equipped them just to try and do something but the throw skills are completely inadequate for this fight. The "throws" on both classes are minor pushes relying on being able to get mobs in the exact correct location in order to actually knock things off.
Easier said than done when you have dragon spit to avoid as well as trappers limiting position.
We did it. Three of us did this fight.
I am obviously not saying it's impossible. But that doesn't mean the fight is balanced correctly for the character and playskill level which should be expected for players at level 40-45.
I've heard whispers that this fight caused massive amounts of rage quitting, now I know why. If the players don't have the knowhow in how to position mobs for knock-offs (something many players believe is 'exploiting' at that) this fight is literally impossible.
And there's nothing which outright requires knockoffs again until Tier 2 dungeons. It's really completely out of proportion compared to other content at that level.
Just because it can be done if you take advantage of knockoffs with a team that is actually experienced in how to use terrain to their advantage doesn't mean it's balanced. The fight would have been laughable with me as a CW but of course I wasn't a CW and was next to powerless to alter the course of the fight.
That's not balanced.
Finally, bumping things is not required at all. Just one more thing some like to do to kill an encounter faster. In all the times I have done it, no one in the group asked for or did bumping and it was successfully completed.
So, unless something has changed post-Feywild...
I did it multiple times back in Open Beta. I did knock off a few things but overall it felt like an option.
But what I faced yesterday was not what I faced in Open Beta. When I say no cooldown I mean no cooldown.
As I said in the opening post, 2 TR's and a GWF on a single Mystik couldn't scratch it.
If you are familiar with the GF power "Into the Fray" the phsyical animation is similar. Sort of looks like a person flexing their muscles. That was non-stop. Literally the animation barely completed, if that, before it cast the animation again which is something I don't recall in Open Beta.
I haven't ran it as a GWF but I remember one time as TR kiting the Healers off out of the way so the party could carry on burning the boss in ignorance - cost me some pots but worked just fine.
When you tried killing one Mystic had you separated it from it's pair, so you were only dealing with its self heals? I haven't run this for a month and maybe it's been turned up to 11 or is bugged now, but trying to burn them down has always been a wasted effort in my opinion.
The point of this skirmish seems to be that the boss is not the big bad dragon after all and not everyone gets or likes this concept. I'd also disagree that a skirmish should be an unlosable zerg rush like MotH is. It should be a short boss fight, assault or arena that offers some challenge but not the same time investment of a full dungeon run and it should require team play and coordination to some extent.
While I havent done this skirmish in a long while since arond April or May. Somethign may have changed.
As I remember the Last boss in Lair of the Mad dragon was just as hard, or even worse. Simply because the minions summoned were Summoners, which summoned MORE Imps, and then later in the fight Eniryes's would be summoned and start healing the others with flames similar to how the mystics do.
That was changed recently, where instead of the summoners, it summons Legion Devils and the Eniryes's heal wasnt as strong as it used to be. Looks like about half as strong.
While I havent done this skirmish in a long while since arond April or May. Somethign may have changed.
As I remember the Last boss in Lair of the Mad dragon was just as hard, or even worse. Simply because the minions summoned were Summoners, which summoned MORE Imps, and then later in the fight Eniryes's would be summoned and start healing the others with flames similar to how the mystics do.
That was changed recently, where instead of the summoners, it summons Legion Devils and the Eniryes's heal wasnt as strong as it used to be. Looks like about half as strong.
The Lair of the Mad Dragon changes were documented in patch notes.
But, I get your point, something could have changed and there is also the broader point of the step-up in difficulty, especially compared to previous (heck, all but two much later - Hotenow and Whispering Caverns) Skirmishes. Personally, assuming nothing has changed with Garrundar the Vile Skirmish, the only change I would make is make dang sure the bug is fixed where those healers or lizard mages cannot die under the ground. This causes them to become untargettable and keep everyone in combat, making it all but impossible to loot after all that effort without some extraordinary acrobatics to kite an unseen ranged add away from the loot chest!
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2013
I wasn't able to outthreat the rogues of the GF who were less experienced.
Again if I was a GF, Cleric of CW it wouldn't have been bad but the fight that I just experienced is out of the playskill range of similar level content. The green players are just not ready for the fight I had to deal with.
Maybe they should give the mystiks a 40% self-heal debuff?
HAHAHAHA you sir, are my new favorite person on the forums today. Your comment = win.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited October 2013
It has admittedly been a long time since I did this skirmish, and I don't recall how quickly the mystics spammed their heal, but it was a real beast to finish even back then. I was at the time trying to complete one daily skirmish with my TR, and it took several days to manage 3x successes due to ragequits (who would not listen to me saying to focus the healers once they popped).
It was odd because the first group I got in with actually had a very easy time because someone said to focus the mystics and we DPSed them down one at a time, no problem. The difficulty of subsequent tries took me a bit by surprise.
What worked at the time:
Focus extreme DPS on one mystic at a time, without separating them.
Separating mystics so they are not stacking heals. DPS one at a time, but not needing to compensate for heals quite as much.
Knocking a mystic off the edge.
I did it once with my GWF as well, and got a good group, two of whom were even using voice chat. This was a group formed in zone chat rather than via queue, so we were already at an advantage. I was able to warn the party about the dangerous adds, and we were very coordinated. That one we did divide and conquer tactics as well.
You're mad that you have to use a certain strategy on a boss that literally anyone can do (the strategy, that is) even though it's a boss? And thus is meant to be challenging?
Did I understand that right?
Sure, they're OP, but as you said in the OP - you have to throw them off a cliff. And they die. Then you can kill the boss. Sounds more like strategy to me than the devs being unfair.
I doubt you could handle RS's Jad if OP healers on bosses really bother you that much.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2013
I'm mad because I can tell the difference between intention and result.
There are knock off fights in the game. This one obviously, just by map design, wasn't intended to be 100% reliant on knock-offs.
Neither was Jad - since you can't. You're in the middle of a freakin volcano. Yet people managed to defeat the auto-healers while dealing with Jad's auto-AoEs.
Just sayin - needs strategy, that's all. Making it HARDER to kick them off the edge doesn't even require that much more strategy...so honestly, +1 for making it harder!
I would point out once again as has been pointed out a hundred times that knock offs are not required for this fight,
Id add that knock offs are actually a REALLY bad idea. Ive had it glitch out more then a few times doing that. The mystics can easily end up under the hill. They can still attack and heal, but cant be hit back. If that happens there is pretty much no way at all to win.
Its best to just kite them to a corner and park them there as you DPS the lizard.
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indolo238Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 51
edited October 2013
I didn't see anyone mention how the mystics leash together when one of their health bars gets low. On my TR, before feywild, I'd get one of the mystics separated from the rest, blow my cooldowns and get it almost dead before it'd self-heal back to full. What drove me crazy though was that while I'd never lose aggro on that mystic, it'd run away from me to go heal the other mystic the rest of the group was fighting on the other side. Even just trying to separate them, if I pulled one too far from the other, it seemed it'd run back until I got closer again.
The skirmish is possible to complete, but I think the difficulty is way off balance for what it's meant to be. Killing those healers when they leash together and spam heal requires coordinated CC and dps in groups formed from queues that might have language barriers and all different skill levels. That skirmish strikes me more as an epic skirmish. As it is now, it's almost impossible to even get into, due to the limited level ranges and so many players not wanting to bother with it. And that's the real reason it needs adjustment; players don't find it fun and avoid it.
I have to agree with the sentiment about the mystics being too much of a deterrence for those wanting to complete this Skirmish. While they may be slightly controllable during the fight, their heals keep them unkillable for those that want to loot the chest after Garrundar's down. Either their heals should be toned down or at least have them and any other surviving mooks run away/despawn after the dragon's killed. I don't really see this Skirmish being played much if it gets brought in for a Call Of The Wild replay if it stays as is.
Comments
In my mind anyway, what distinguished a "skirmish" from a "dungeon" was that the latter was supposed to be much more hardcore and require a deeper level of communication and teamwork in order for the team to succeed. A skirmish however was supposed to be more fun and not quite as intense. Am I thinking of them wrong?
I really don't think every single piece of group content in the game should require premades and detailed coordination in order to succeed.
They also have no cooldown and a much more efficient heal than players.
It's the skirmish with the Dragon on a hill top and the healing shamans. The one with either lots of CW ledging or lots of rage quiting.
Sorry no. That don't explain it for me nor it image me any skirmish/dungeon/pve normal happening. =(
On the one hand the fact that it requires communication of a strategy between team members is awesome. One of my favourite skirmishes to do across various classes.
But sadly the poor experience I think a lot of players had causes them to not take part in the next few levels of skirmishes (judging by the Qing difficulty I always had from this point onwards), even though they become simple zerg fests again for a while.
There are multiple effective strategies for taking the healers out of the game: split them, kite them, kettle them, punt them etc. I'd suggest one problem is that you don't see as powerful a pair of healers in the PVE zone this skirmish lives in, so players really don't realise how essential it is to neutralise their impact. Is it possible they are toned down in the general content area?
I view skirmishes as a few packs of trash and a boss encounter. I don't see a difference between a skirmish boss vs a dungeon boss. Some skirmishes have far more complex boss encounters than dungeon bosses.
One of the most complained about issues when it comes to bosses is that they aren't very creative, "just add spawn central boohoohoo". Yeah boss mechanics usually revolve around adds but there's actually a lot of creativity and variation when it comes to the encounters, the boss mechanics, the types of adds that spawn, the different strategies need to beat them. The problem is everyone approaches them the exact same way and whine like a girl with a skinned knee when "I just keep swinging my sword and we wipe wut happen?" doesn't work for every single encounter they come across.
The sad thing is that once you are well geared in a good group, "just kill everything" does work, because you can overcome all these nuances in the encounter with more dps/cc which to a CW or especially a CW heavy group is the exact same thing.
I do not think you have done this skirmish. There are plenty of Youtube videos for Garrunder the Vile if you would like to see some of what is involved.
Yes, it is a Pirate's Skyhold skirmish. It is level 42-45 in queue which is the same as the Pirate's Skyhold questing zone.
Finally, bumping things is not required at all. Just one more thing some like to do to kill an encounter faster. In all the times I have done it, no one in the group asked for or did bumping and it was successfully completed.
So, unless something has changed post-Feywild...
However it's to be noted this was the difficulty at what I remember. Slight issue with the healers but not the mess I had to deal with yesterday.
And as for the GWF and TR "throw skills," I equipped them just to try and do something but the throw skills are completely inadequate for this fight. The "throws" on both classes are minor pushes relying on being able to get mobs in the exact correct location in order to actually knock things off.
Easier said than done when you have dragon spit to avoid as well as trappers limiting position.
We did it. Three of us did this fight.
I am obviously not saying it's impossible. But that doesn't mean the fight is balanced correctly for the character and playskill level which should be expected for players at level 40-45.
I've heard whispers that this fight caused massive amounts of rage quitting, now I know why. If the players don't have the knowhow in how to position mobs for knock-offs (something many players believe is 'exploiting' at that) this fight is literally impossible.
And there's nothing which outright requires knockoffs again until Tier 2 dungeons. It's really completely out of proportion compared to other content at that level.
Just because it can be done if you take advantage of knockoffs with a team that is actually experienced in how to use terrain to their advantage doesn't mean it's balanced. The fight would have been laughable with me as a CW but of course I wasn't a CW and was next to powerless to alter the course of the fight.
That's not balanced.
I did it multiple times back in Open Beta. I did knock off a few things but overall it felt like an option.
But what I faced yesterday was not what I faced in Open Beta. When I say no cooldown I mean no cooldown.
As I said in the opening post, 2 TR's and a GWF on a single Mystik couldn't scratch it.
If you are familiar with the GF power "Into the Fray" the phsyical animation is similar. Sort of looks like a person flexing their muscles. That was non-stop. Literally the animation barely completed, if that, before it cast the animation again which is something I don't recall in Open Beta.
When you tried killing one Mystic had you separated it from it's pair, so you were only dealing with its self heals? I haven't run this for a month and maybe it's been turned up to 11 or is bugged now, but trying to burn them down has always been a wasted effort in my opinion.
The point of this skirmish seems to be that the boss is not the big bad dragon after all and not everyone gets or likes this concept. I'd also disagree that a skirmish should be an unlosable zerg rush like MotH is. It should be a short boss fight, assault or arena that offers some challenge but not the same time investment of a full dungeon run and it should require team play and coordination to some extent.
As I remember the Last boss in Lair of the Mad dragon was just as hard, or even worse. Simply because the minions summoned were Summoners, which summoned MORE Imps, and then later in the fight Eniryes's would be summoned and start healing the others with flames similar to how the mystics do.
That was changed recently, where instead of the summoners, it summons Legion Devils and the Eniryes's heal wasnt as strong as it used to be. Looks like about half as strong.
The Lair of the Mad Dragon changes were documented in patch notes.
But, I get your point, something could have changed and there is also the broader point of the step-up in difficulty, especially compared to previous (heck, all but two much later - Hotenow and Whispering Caverns) Skirmishes. Personally, assuming nothing has changed with Garrundar the Vile Skirmish, the only change I would make is make dang sure the bug is fixed where those healers or lizard mages cannot die under the ground. This causes them to become untargettable and keep everyone in combat, making it all but impossible to loot after all that effort without some extraordinary acrobatics to kite an unseen ranged add away from the loot chest!
Again if I was a GF, Cleric of CW it wouldn't have been bad but the fight that I just experienced is out of the playskill range of similar level content. The green players are just not ready for the fight I had to deal with.
HAHAHAHA you sir, are my new favorite person on the forums today. Your comment = win.
It was odd because the first group I got in with actually had a very easy time because someone said to focus the mystics and we DPSed them down one at a time, no problem. The difficulty of subsequent tries took me a bit by surprise.
What worked at the time:
Focus extreme DPS on one mystic at a time, without separating them.
Separating mystics so they are not stacking heals. DPS one at a time, but not needing to compensate for heals quite as much.
Knocking a mystic off the edge.
I did it once with my GWF as well, and got a good group, two of whom were even using voice chat. This was a group formed in zone chat rather than via queue, so we were already at an advantage. I was able to warn the party about the dangerous adds, and we were very coordinated. That one we did divide and conquer tactics as well.
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You're mad that you have to use a certain strategy on a boss that literally anyone can do (the strategy, that is) even though it's a boss? And thus is meant to be challenging?
Did I understand that right?
Sure, they're OP, but as you said in the OP - you have to throw them off a cliff. And they die. Then you can kill the boss. Sounds more like strategy to me than the devs being unfair.
I doubt you could handle RS's Jad if OP healers on bosses really bother you that much.
There are knock off fights in the game. This one obviously, just by map design, wasn't intended to be 100% reliant on knock-offs.
Nice try though.
Just sayin - needs strategy, that's all. Making it HARDER to kick them off the edge doesn't even require that much more strategy...so honestly, +1 for making it harder!
Id add that knock offs are actually a REALLY bad idea. Ive had it glitch out more then a few times doing that. The mystics can easily end up under the hill. They can still attack and heal, but cant be hit back. If that happens there is pretty much no way at all to win.
Its best to just kite them to a corner and park them there as you DPS the lizard.
The skirmish is possible to complete, but I think the difficulty is way off balance for what it's meant to be. Killing those healers when they leash together and spam heal requires coordinated CC and dps in groups formed from queues that might have language barriers and all different skill levels. That skirmish strikes me more as an epic skirmish. As it is now, it's almost impossible to even get into, due to the limited level ranges and so many players not wanting to bother with it. And that's the real reason it needs adjustment; players don't find it fun and avoid it.