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Impact Shot and PvP: Let's face the facts
gpassucc
Member Posts: 22 Arc User
Fellow rogues,
I have both a 60 rogue and CW which I primarily pvp on with decent gear (~11k gs on both). I can say that seeing the effects of Impact Shot from the delivering and receiving end the damage for this ability needs a serious toning down. It takes my CW three casts of setup to pray for an Eye of the Storm proc or a lucky crit to get a decent Ice Rays for burst and my rogue can that much damage easily with impact shot with no setup, from range, as a melee class, with perhaps the best pvp survivability in the game. The fact that rogues can have ranged-class caliber damage from range, along with the hardest hitting melee abilities, along with cc immunity (and complete immunity in some cases) is just too much. One or several of these things need to be changed. Frankly it isn't even fun playing my rogue its so ridiculously easy. As long as you have impossible to catch, impact shot, (insert good rogue ability here), you should annihilate every other class in pvp besides a better rogue. Just saying an honest assessment of rogue pvp is that it is flat out too good.
I hope that the one and a half people they have "balancing" this game as their part time job might actually realize this but I'm not very optimistic. =(
I have both a 60 rogue and CW which I primarily pvp on with decent gear (~11k gs on both). I can say that seeing the effects of Impact Shot from the delivering and receiving end the damage for this ability needs a serious toning down. It takes my CW three casts of setup to pray for an Eye of the Storm proc or a lucky crit to get a decent Ice Rays for burst and my rogue can that much damage easily with impact shot with no setup, from range, as a melee class, with perhaps the best pvp survivability in the game. The fact that rogues can have ranged-class caliber damage from range, along with the hardest hitting melee abilities, along with cc immunity (and complete immunity in some cases) is just too much. One or several of these things need to be changed. Frankly it isn't even fun playing my rogue its so ridiculously easy. As long as you have impossible to catch, impact shot, (insert good rogue ability here), you should annihilate every other class in pvp besides a better rogue. Just saying an honest assessment of rogue pvp is that it is flat out too good.
I hope that the one and a half people they have "balancing" this game as their part time job might actually realize this but I'm not very optimistic. =(
Post edited by gpassucc on
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people playing melee class just love stunlock you from range 13k/shot with four charges - its completely ok to do more damage with one skill then CWs daily stunlocking meanwhile.
After all nothing in "Control Wizard" sais you should be doing damage to someone who "focuses on dodging for a short time" while "Trickster Rogue" perfectly implies ability to stunlock from range for 4 * 13k damage.
I didn't understand anything.
@ the OP:
Rogues are one of the best PvP classes, but I think that seeing them from a CW perspective makes it even worse for the end user
1- Just because you have 11k GS doesn't make you with the proper PvP spec. You have to realize that you need items for PvP
For example: HP/regen and defense.
2- You can come and fight my TR/GWF or even DC. and i'm 100% sure i will kill your so called " OP TR". No offense, but you sound in experienced with either of CW nor TR in PvP.
3- you can't give a class assessment based on PuG PvP. I'm sure there are CWs who can easily blow your TR in few hits.
Anyhow, every single ability the TR can do is dodgeable. including impact shot. (SE excluded)
Unless you re psychic, you cant dodge impact shot going from stealth since the caster is not close and so is not revelead 0,5s before cast.
I v got CW at 12,8k and i v got same complaint. If not ultra-(de)buffed i dont do much more then 16k with regular skills, why should TR do roughly same damage with four stuns included? I d personally remove stun from regular impactshots and keep it only for stealth bonus one instead of nerfing damage.
Seriously, to call for a nerf every time you get owned is a little rediculous. I'm not experienced in PvP and get owned all the time by CWs' (yes, I don't like PvP but I know I have to get better...) but if every time I shouted for a nerf once I get killed...
Good gear, good skills and good gameplay makes you stay alive. Get better gear, get better skills or for the love of Tymora, ask for a buff for your class!
Moral of the story is gear differences are what make big numbers, yes a maxed out TR with vorpal will seem OP to a low GS CW. But a maxed out CW can crush a low geared TR all day as well. Playing with your team as a CW and not putting yourself in position to get hit with impact shot without support is half the battle. Tactics and strategy actually play quite a big role in domination pvp.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Indeed. Especially if you are squishy like a CW, then choosing the right place to cast your rotation is a huge step in the right direction. If a fair fight is going on, then positioning makes or breaks it.
Any TR runs slotting lashing blade/impact shot/ impossible to catch. Or Impact shot, shadow strike , lashing blade. So they never run with all their stuns at the same time.
Impact Shot 40' Range
When you use impact shot, stealth gets consumed, so the caster will be 40' close to you. So if you are a CW, 80% of your abilities are 80' range. So i have no idea what did you mean "caster is not close".
Impact shot only stuns you if it is casted from stealth, else it just push you back. You thought it stuns you without stealth? lol.
you forgot shadow strike/lashing blade/impossible to catch for the more node holder/delayer role
it does cause an interrupt so thats what he might be confusing with a stun.
I dont need them "close" to reach them with skills, i need them within 5 feet to be revealed just before the skill.
(should you not noticed rogues gets revlead in close proximity, allowing to dodge)
Caster will be revealed 40ft away while target is stuned and vunerable to landing another stun ...and two additional stuns after that. No chance of dodging unless guessing before first cast.
It does stun both from stealth and normal, even though its not stated in tooltip.
Impact shot interrupts all skills casts in any stage of progress as well as movement (including dodges, unless already far in progress)
...its not callled "stun" but it stuns the target just as Roar for example or Repel, with only difference - its extreme damage and spamable skill. It should do either damage comparable with skills stated above or dont stun.
Then again, if there are more experienced/p2w players in enemy team, I switch it back since it is almost the only way to win those "look at my 25k LB crit, I'm so good" rogues or more experienced CWs.
So it is OP skill, but it has to be stressed that the effect appears in pug matches.
When you have to preface your argument with "This only works on noobs guys" it doesn't hold much merit...
The skill is not OP and I am so happy when I'm up against a LB/IS using rogue instead of a PotB extended stealth build that I can never find b/c they have shadow strike and BaS giving them 4 full stealth bars. I killed an absolute BiS TR (we're talking P. vorpal, P. soulforged, R10 darks and radiants) 6 times in a row with my PotB TR and I have no armor enchant, greater lightning, and R7's. IS and LB can be good in the hands of a very experienced player, but they get you killed more than anything if you aren't very good.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Instead of this ppl should put posts how to optimize the game and not how to break it appart by nerfing every class, and like its said in few more threads some ppl are more effective in pvp then others can play better or have more time/money to perfect their chars. There is allways someone whos more pro then u...
With pugs I didn't mean all players are noobs. Of course there are lots of them, but I meant the players are not always p2w. What skill do you need spamming an ability 3-4 times in a row against very, very skilled players whose gear just isn't enough to beat you (assuming, of course, that you know your class well enough to play it, not like that rogue you described).
Lol you are generalizing that all well geared players P2W, and that gear = good player, both of which are wrong. I know multiple players on my server with absolute BiS (P. enchants, R10's) that are just simply bad at PvP. I also know many very good PvP'ers that haven't spent a dime on the game.
The fact that you can't win against players with gear or skill without impact shot means you should probably adjust your build, playstyle, or gear. I don't run impact, LB, or ItC and I am generally 20+/0-2/20+. I am also not perma stealth.
GvG matches I may die 2-3 more times. I also love facing IS/LB TR's on my GWF, GF, and DC as they immediately break stealth and then get destroyed by me or my team.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
1) Learn to dodge. If I know a TR is near me, it's a rarity that I'm hit by his LB unless I'm stun-locked.
2) Stack Radiants. The extra HP is everything you need to get through those three Impact shots.
3) Keep firing! You can still use your at-wills (Magic Missile, Ray of Frost), while Impact-Shotted.
4) Abuse Repel. 6 second cool-down to push you 60' from me. Heck yes! Land it before or after ITC to create the distance needed to avoid Impact Shots or CoS.
5) Shield on Tab. Lots of TRs on the opposing team? Run with Shield on Tab. You'd be amazed how much it helps with those nasty TRs.
6) Icy Rays. One "plink" will mark a TR while in Stealth for about five seconds.
7) Steal Time. Gotta perma-stealthy? Slot this and get on a node. Some TRs dodge it, many don't.
So dodge the LB, survive the Impact Shots. After ITC burns out, that TR is out of tricks besides a dodge or two. Then it's pretty easy to finish them off.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Yes you can dodge it. The stealthed one you cant because it literally stuns you. second one probably not because you were stunned before ( unless you are spamming shift key, the impact shot animation is slow enough to allow you to counter it).
3rd one you can dodge it, dodge cancels interruption.
I like you
Finally someone who understands what balance means. Maybe it's because I play a lot of old strategy games lately (I'm talking Warlords Battlecry 3 and Age of Empries 2 here...) but that made me realize that NW is pretty balanced, only in an "old fashioned way". TR beates CW, CW beats GF, GF beats TR. Throw the other two in there and you got a pretty decent balance, you only have to play as a 5 player group, all classes and stick together and it should be balanced.
If, however, you always go Rogue (like playing by yourself) you're bound to loose (in most cases).
You cannot dodge impact shot going from stealth since the rogue is not revelead untill it already hit you. (unless guess where in the 5 seconds gap he will cast it)
You re stuned by impact shot.
You are still stuned by impact shot, no firing.
I would use it if I wasnt what? Stuned by another impact shot! Rogue that allow you get the first shot on him isnt a rogue.
While you are stuned by impact shot, you can relalize he can throw one at-will dagger on you and remove shield protection, so you are stuned by now and got wasted slot.
Its nice to see where he is but it cannot prevent him from landing IS on you plus you wasted one cooldown since it goes on CD after marking even when not fired.
Nice idea, except you are standing still and vurnerable to what? Impact Shot!
He can take you to 20% even with full HP stacking only by IS, stunlocking you effectivly for all charges. After all his charges, he got 100% HP and 5 seconds of ItC ready while you got 20%... well good luck, if you manage to survive the next 5 seconds, you can kill him.
This "guide" showed me few things:
1) you are assuming every rogue will not use stealth and give you first shot on him
(if he gave, i can two-shot him, yes there are few such rogues but we are talking about those with brain)
2) no ruges know how to remove shield
3) every rogue run dircetly towards you to try LB so you can easily dodge it and he remove stealth for 0 damage
4) they cannot CC you from melee/range
5) every rogue uses ItC exactly after being blown away with repel
...i dont know where did you get such expierence in PvP but it isnt lvl 60 remade, sounds more like you are level 40 exping by PvP
Easy, tiger. They're hints, nothing more. These are things that can help you, but not guarantee you a win. Find me in game with your TR and we'll duel. Trace@degraafination. I run 10-20 PVP matches a day and 1v1 rogues all the time. It's great fun. Do I always win? No. Do I often win? Yes.
Even if a TR gets off all his IS on me, I stack radiants, and have a Greater Soulforge. I can often still win against a TR who's unloaded all of his encounters and has ITC up. That being said, I don't find anything imbalanced about TRs now.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
You cant use anything after being hit by Impact Shot, so its effectively a stun. The only way you can dodge impact shot is if they are using it from half up to maximum distance the skill allows.
The ability hits just a bit too hard with the addition of critical strikes..
Most rogues can knock down most of a person HP with all 3 charges.
I suppose they could make it rely more heavily on stealth. Impact shot deal 100% damage and stuns from stealth, but deals reduced (25% less) damage normally. Alternatively make it deal damage based on how many charges are left(fewer = less damage). Just throwing out some thoughts.
No doubts.
Sadly, IS is repeatable, high dagamage, stunlocking, 100 to 0% skill. IS is overdone.
simply offers too much of everything, rather then sticking with what they need.
Something like 3 seconds between charges and/or removing stun for consequent uses would solve it.
PLUS it wouldnt hurt PvE since its (almost) purely PvP skill.
Impact shot is the same if CWs got 4 charges of Chill Strike with first one unavoidable!
i wonder if you cant or dont want to realize that
Yeah then it would just be a stronger version of shadow strike from stealth, without refilling stealth.
I do like the idea of it dealing damage based on how many charges are left. With that, the damage could stay as it is now. Just the damage it does is subtracted by some variable based on how many charges are left.
Lashing Blade is fine to me. I dont usually use it. But I cant deny its effectiveness. Its dodgable, you can only get caught with it when unawares or simply not paying attention.
My only thing is Impact Shot hits just a bit too hard for what all it does.
0. Undodgeable (you have to guess when the Shocking Execution is coming. No part of the animation will help you once it starts).
1. Huge range for a Daily of a melee class! I have been hit by it at a range of 40ft, i.e. double that of Combat Advantage...
2. Large damage that becomes much greater based on missing HP
3. Prone/knockdown.
Combined with the synergy of a class with the highest burst abilities in the game, I can not honestly think of a better IWIN button!
This is a Daily that if it should exist at all, should be part of a low CC, low damage class, like Clerics as a "rewards" for working their asses off for getting anyone low enough to even begin to worry about being finished off.
Even GF's struggle with Shocking Execution because while it can be blocked if some TR is dumb enough to use it upfront (and why would anyone do so due to the HP dependency), TRs can just use their At-Wills both in melee or range to wipe out the guard of any GF that is actually able to kill them before rapidly lowering the HP of the defenseless target with Encounters.
To me, this is literally the only unbalanced skill in the whole PvP game, due to specific parts of its mechanics combined with the context, i.e. in a TR class.
I like ItC-Impact shotting TRs and PoB TRs that bleed me dry before I can even tell where they are coming from and almost unkillable GWFs or GF's who get lucky and chain stun me or DC's that dot me up or knock me around or CW's that perma-CC or mark me or try to hit me with their slowass Ice Knife's or think their silly green bubbles will save them when I catch them. These are all challenging fun things that all have workarounds and ways to mitigate them.
But what the heck do you do about an IWIN button like Shocking Execution on a TR class, other than get them first before they get you (which has never worked in any MMO PvP balance I have ever heard of)?
I, personally, don't care whether they nerf it or no. Comparing Impact Shot to Chill Strike is a bit silly, and here's why.
1) I have an AT-WILL power that can hit you at 80' distance and has the possibility to act like Ray of Enfeeblement (Chaos Magic, Renegade Feat).
2) I have ANOTHER AT-WILL that can stun-lock you. It's called Ray of Frost, and it's also usable at 80'.
RoE can have two charges.
Icy Rays can be cast on two targets.
So IS having four charges isn't a big deal for me. I already plan against it, and it isn't often an issue.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Now back to IS:
- yes you can dodge it, and dodge the 2nd/3rd strikes, try spamming those buttons a bit, sometimes it works, sometimes you gonna eat all the IS, this is where you being not-so-squishy helps
- yes it will hurt, and if the TR has good gear and vorpal, you might be dead at the end, and sure enough it will finish you if you're low on HP
- if you're a CW, and you're relatively geared, don't panic, try to dodge one shot or 2, make sure the TR is not ITC and then when IS is over, it's time to CS/EF/RoE/Icy Rays. You will find out that even geared TRs are squishy like you and after this combo they're gonna be trying to run in panic or lie dead. It's all in surviving their initial assault, sure it's not gonna be easy as geared TRs do a ****ton of damage, but hey - it's doable.
My opinion is that IS is relatively in a good place... maybe a bit of toning it down would be good for more balance, something like "Can only stun after connecting 3 consecutive shots"...