Just shows you how ignorant you are. I haven't played with a single TR that has out dps'd me, guild run or pug run. Not in a single dungeon. They just can't compete with a properly played GWF.
Trollolol?
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
0
seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yup. If I have to set up the pug party, there won't be a TR in it. But I have been in other people's parties (via somebody asked me to help, friends, etc) where there have been TR. Come show me a TR that will out dps the full run. I'd love to see it.
actually GWF is the one of 2 classes needed in Neverwinter, who the hell needs cw when u can just blow up mobs in 2 sec(unless u want to abuse bugs/glitches/etc and need ranged dps) , who needs tr when they are dead/doing trash dps most of the time, who needs gf when u dont need tanks in this game, ok GF are kind of useful in FH, cause they can pick up adds easier
Yup. If I have to set up the pug party, there won't be a TR in it. But I have been in other people's parties (via somebody asked me to help, friends, etc) where there have been TR. Come show me a TR that will out dps the full run. I'd love to see it.
I agree with this as well.
At lower gear scores a TR was needed. But I have found that a CW or GWF can fill that role.
Maybe it is the recent tr nerfs or good scaling of gear for gwf. But I also rarely see tr beat gwfs in dps
Feels like people don't know why you want a TR.. A TR is usable for 2 things,
- Best single target DPS there is. (A GWF hits multiple targets, therefore higher total dmg, comparable a with CW contra any other class.. Those 25k shard AoE crits<3)
- Stealth.
Those two combined makes them one of the best tanks for bosses there is given the TR is skilled enough, they will keep aggro via doing damage, and get rid of adds via stealth, the boss will completely ignore whether the TR is stealthed or not tho, so the aggro is kept. Add the fact they have a skill (Impossible to Catch) that gives them 100% deflect chance (75% extra DR more or less) and CC immunity alternatively making them completely damage immune.
One of the main reason you're seeing GWF always low on health is that GWF need to take damage to be able to use the primary class ability Unstoppable. Because of this, bad GWF seem to think it's OK for them to stand in red stuff or other bad places and take lots and lots of damage. Actually, you'll run into people of all classes that do this as they think 'There's a cleric in the party. He can keep me healed'. It's just that GWF seem to have more of them.
I have both a DC and a GWF and I've gotten to the point where I see people taking lots of damage when it would be simple for them to move to avoid it. I'll call them out on it and tell them I'm going to stop healing them. They can use their heal pots to keep themselves alive.
determination gained from a hit is based on the % of hp you lose from it. got high hp? less determination gained. got insane defense? less determination gain. the destroyer capstone skill is kinda sad, really doesnt give much determination at all in comparison with letting yourself get smacked (maybe 1% per 1000dmg? not sure). roar and daring shout gives 4% determination per target, which falls short of being useful for this purpose.
for this reason, at high level, lifesteal is by far the best defensive stat for gwf. nothing else comes close. in fact, you will probably be stronger if you avoid defensive stats other than lifesteal, and increase your dmg in order to make lifesteal more effective...
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yukuaiitaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2013
Yesterday we do a run (normal, without glitch) in FH: me, a CW, a GF, a TR and the last spot was filled with a GWF that "grant to be an uber damage dealer". The run go quick and easy, no death or problems but if CW and TR did 10M of dam, the poor GWF reach the 7M quota and stop.
If someone of you that play gwf well is on Beholder please: contact me and show me how a good GWF works!
0
seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yesterday we do a run (normal, without glitch) in FH: me, a CW, a GF, a TR and the last spot was filled with a GWF that "grant to be an uber damage dealer". The run go quick and easy, no death or problems but if CW and TR did 10M of dam, the poor GWF reach the 7M quota and stop.
If someone of you that play gwf well is on Beholder please: contact me and show me how a good GWF works!
Too bad you aren't on Dragon. Not a single TR can out dps our top GWFs in our guild.
Yesterday we do a run (normal, without glitch) in FH: me, a CW, a GF, a TR and the last spot was filled with a GWF that "grant to be an uber damage dealer". The run go quick and easy, no death or problems but if CW and TR did 10M of dam, the poor GWF reach the 7M quota and stop.
If someone of you that play gwf well is on Beholder please: contact me and show me how a good GWF works!
last FH i was at 19mil while tr and other gwf was at 10 full clear, but i need better enchants, weapon enchant and switch armor sets a bit get close to what gwf can do. normal vorpal ench should increase my dmg by ~13% alone. though endgame its hard to get close to cw cause mobs die so fast that cw aoe burst>gwf sustained dmg.
this game is 2 easy for gwfs to shine
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yukuaiitaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Which game? :P
Cause yesterday I've get another run with a GWF ... OMG: no damage, no tank, a litlle CC and WTF ... why? :P
I renew my invitation to everyone: add me on beholder and join me in a DD so you can show me the power
0
inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
Dont worry server merge is coming and then it'll be another excuse. "No tr can out damage our gwf, but we never ever group with tr to make this statement true". "Oh we do full run no exploit ie we pull all trash in dungeons only 5 at a time and force our cw to use powers that keep mobs together so we can make our gwf top dps".
Again what a joke. No gwf can touch our tr dps, but in aoe only dungeons, dps is irrelevent as its just a cw show anyway.
TR can touch GWF DPS in full clear(not that throw trash down cause we suck at dps runs) ? havent seen that one since i ran with cleric pet, at least with TR having similar gear
ofc there are some places where dropping mobs is easy and speeds up stuff, but when party clears mobs in same time it would take them to get near ledge its situational
about tanking i agree, gwf doesnt have anything to generate threat except potions lol
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Dont worry server merge is coming and then it'll be another excuse. "No tr can out damage our gwf, but we never ever group with tr to make this statement true". "Oh we do full run no exploit ie we pull all trash in dungeons only 5 at a time and force our cw to use powers that keep mobs together so we can make our gwf top dps".
Again what a joke. No gwf can touch our tr dps, but in aoe only dungeons, dps is irrelevent as its just a cw show anyway.
I can't wait to see the TR damage. We have grouped with TR plenty of times. I have said over and over that if I must pug, I would rather not take them because their damage is low.
I can't wait to see the TR damage. We have grouped with TR plenty of times. I have said over and over that if I must pug, I would rather not take them because their damage is low.
WHen you'll do the test call me as a DC: I'm interested to see what's the result
The Great Weapon Fighter, as it's name suggests, is a great toon to play. Don't let the naysayers bring you down.
If you want a visceral feeling class, stomping innumerable enemies to the ground, with crit arrows and orange numbers flying all around ... Play GWF.
It feels good. Especially if you are good at dodging, sprinting. A good GWF can be always where there is a need. I even finished Pirate King with a good DC and a CW, and got kudos from the DC for my dodging ability. If that's the case, TR and GF could be called useless. Thery are not, but the players using them were inexperienced.
Teamplay, positioning makes a lot more in this game than one would imagine. Saying that I don't need a GWF in my team is silly. A good player will shine uising GWF, and a bad one will be abysmal as another class.
Of course, if you are not playing the game, but farming for gear, you might want maximizing dps ... and most what has been said is true. But did you see that most who advise against GWF still admit that there are a few ones worth taking into dungeons too ?
Before Feywild I could top the dps chart. I did spam Slam a lot. Not because GWF was that great, but because most players are not that great either.
I came out first in dungeons, CTA ... but I also came out last, or before last. So what does that tell me ... that it depends on player skill a lot. Dismissing GWFs form the start is a prejudice, what really hurts the good GWFs. In time more and more will stop playing it and than the class will indeed become useless, because other classes will learn to play without them. GWF is a supporting character, with the ability to quickly switch roles between tanking, debuffer (SoTS, recent changes to Slam), small area/mobcount AOE dps and single target dps, one that is fun to play because it is a melee character, and visually impressive with the hugearse weapon. No wonder that many new players choose GWF as their starting toon. One will always find a GWF willing to do a dungeon, while DCs are always missing. I don't see than what is not to like as one who is not playing GWF. They are versatile and available, and the good ones are even worth inviting into teams.
Whatever we deny or embrace, we belong togheter./ Pat Benatar
The Great Weapon Fighter, as it's name suggests, is a great toon to play. Don't let the naysayers bring you down.
If you want a visceral feeling class, stomping innumerable enemies to the ground, with crit arrows and orange numbers flying all around ... Play GWF.
It feels good. Especially if you are good at dodging, sprinting. A good GWF can be always where there is a need. I even finished Pirate King with a good DC and a CW, and got kudos from the DC for my dodging ability. If that's the case, TR and GF could be called useless. Thery are not, but the players using them were inexperienced.
Teamplay, positioning makes a lot more in this game than one would imagine. Saying that I don't need a GWF in my team is silly. A good player will shine uising GWF, and a bad one will be abysmal as another class.
Of course, if you are not playing the game, but farming for gear, you might want maximizing dps ... and most what has been said is true. But did you see that most who advise against GWF still admit that there are a few ones worth taking into dungeons too ?
Before Feywild I could top the dps chart. I did spam Slam a lot. Not because GWF was that great, but because most players are not that great either.
I came out first in dungeons, CTA ... but I also came out last, or before last. So what does that tell me ... that it depends on player skill a lot. Dismissing GWFs form the start is a prejudice, what really hurts the good GWFs. In time more and more will stop playing it and than the class will indeed become useless, because other classes will learn to play without them. GWF is a supporting character, with the ability to quickly switch roles between tanking, debuffer (SoTS, recent changes to Slam), small area/mobcount AOE dps and single target dps, one that is fun to play because it is a melee character, and visually impressive with the hugearse weapon. No wonder that many new players choose GWF as their starting toon. One will always find a GWF willing to do a dungeon, while DCs are always missing. I don't see than what is not to like as one who is not playing GWF. They are versatile and available, and the good ones are even worth inviting into teams.
Pirate King and CTA, ....wOw i think ill stop my comment there before i get another warning... lol.
ive doubled dmg of 2nd place in FH 20m to 10m, topped charts by a large number in spider, spell, karr, mc, lost to CW with 800 more gs just cause he has normal vorpal while i have lesser, if u think GWF doesnt do domg ur dumb, or play with bad ones or u have cw in pt that intentionally try to ruin melee dmg by knocking mobs away
ive doubled dmg of 2nd place in FH 20m to 10m, topped charts by a large number in spider, spell, karr, mc, lost to CW with 800 more gs just cause he has normal vorpal while i have lesser, if u think GWF doesnt do domg ur dumb, or play with bad ones or u have cw in pt that intentionally try to ruin melee dmg by knocking mobs away
A CW will out DPS a GWF of equal skill, the sole fact that my decently geared CW's Shard crits for 40k+ on 10-15 targets at once (Half a mil dmg right there) tells us a GWF won't be able to compete in usefulness with the current meta.
Basicly, WHY would a group need a GWF? What can the GWF contribute with, DPSing/tanking the boss is better done by a TR, controlling/killing adds/trash is better done by a CW, dedicated tanking is not needed if the rest know what they are doing. In my opinon the situation is that the GWF fills a role that is not needed.
How I see it: Pro's for CW:
-Second best solo target damage (After TR)
-Best AoE dmg in game.
-Second best buff/debuff kits in game (After DC)
-Best CC in game.
-Ranged.
-Teleport dodge.
-HV stacking.
-3 CW's (or 2 good ones) with a decent DC removes the need for a tank. Con's for CW:
-Reasonably fragile.
-Threat control only through damage.
-Needs healing from a DC if they take dmg.
Pro's for GWF:
-Reasonably good solotarget damage.
-Good AoE damage.
-Tanky.
-Somewhat self-sustaining on HP.
-Can increased their threat through feats/skills. Con's for GWF:
-Melee.
-No dodge.
-Needs to take damage for unstoppable.
-Rather weak debuffing.
Pro's for TR:
-Best solo target dmg in game.
-Stealth.
-Dodge.
-Stealth.
-Adds can't see you when stealthed.
-Decent solo target debuffing. Con's for TR:
-Melee
-Weak AoE damage.
-Fragile.
-Bosses can see you despite stealth.
i stay at comparable dmg with cw in every dungeon 1st/2nd spot ,3rd being cw/gf and 4th tr(i cant remember last time i saw a good tr seems to be a **** magnet, i manage to do more dmg than tr as GF with knight captains set lol)
ofc devs do favor cw a lot, but hopefully that will change
GWFs can potentially do more single target damage than CWs, especially if there's a CW in the party. I've seen Feated Reaping Strike crit for 15k on a debuffed mob. No wizard on the team, no Vorpal.
A good GWF can also outDPS a CW for as long as the max number of mobs around are 5. CWs have more burst, but GWF at-wills are spammable with a large AoE. Basically if the CW keeps bumping and controlling/killing off normal adds then the remaining elite adds will take massive damage from GWF AoE. Of course if even elite mobs can be bumped then the need to keep a GWF around decreases significantly... not that I'm trying to give the GMs any ideas.
Finally the GWF is a very good off-tank, especially if he knows how to play as one.
Tanks are important. The fact that there are currently several fights which are easier without a tank around is more a testament to how unbalanced these fights are. I don't get how some people think that dungeons are supposed to be faster without a tank when having a good tank around allows you to skip dozens of encounters (or tackle multiple ones at once) and means more time dedicated to killing the boss/controlling adds and less time running around/dodging.
The HV bug is great, but make no mistake - it will be fixed. Cryptic has been tinkering with stacking buffs/debuffs since beta. First it was Shadow Weaver, then Power of the Sun/Power of Oppression, then some other wizard feat... apparently they've even broken Greater Plaguefire's stacking debuff.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
My 1st character is a GWF.. my build is almost similar to Seisem's or Meeggtoast's.. im not an elite player tho, but feel free to run some CTA with me on beholder.. jack23@jack69ass
Good GWF is good for party, they know when to tank adds, when to kill boss....
but how many good GWF we have now?
if u r so good, i believe you can easily get a spot in guild run
but most of the GWF dunno how to play their class, so when we form pug group, no one would consider to take GWF
i have a CW and DC. if the GWF dunno how to tank adds, help CW/DC on adds, i feel that any other char is better than GWF in my group
because GWF are so versatile that they can fit in all conditions, but most of them player dunno how to fully utilize their GWF
so, for most ppl, no one would want GWF in group anymore
but i had met 1-2 GWF that can out-dps my CW, but in rare cases\
and Im thauma CW using PF, so i consdier myself as debuff CW more than damage CW, even my damage 90% top dps chart
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yukuaiitaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
Finally I see some good GWF that worked well in my group. I played some run in DD and I see that GWF can HELP cw, gf, and tr ding their work. For example: in spell we did the 1st boss with some mistake and so we're outnumbered by enemies (cause no one destroy the spawner): the GWF help the GF keep aggro and destroing the spawner. During mouth fights GWF did damage and in the final fight he helped alot even aggroing and ddealing the boss.
good, but not enough: 1 GWF in 2 months of play. Other GWF sucks, no damage, no tank, no CC ... bleach.
Even after this run I think that DC CW CW TR GF is the best team atm.
Comments
Trollolol?
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Yup. If I have to set up the pug party, there won't be a TR in it. But I have been in other people's parties (via somebody asked me to help, friends, etc) where there have been TR. Come show me a TR that will out dps the full run. I'd love to see it.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
I agree with this as well.
At lower gear scores a TR was needed. But I have found that a CW or GWF can fill that role.
Maybe it is the recent tr nerfs or good scaling of gear for gwf. But I also rarely see tr beat gwfs in dps
- Best single target DPS there is. (A GWF hits multiple targets, therefore higher total dmg, comparable a with CW contra any other class.. Those 25k shard AoE crits<3)
- Stealth.
Those two combined makes them one of the best tanks for bosses there is given the TR is skilled enough, they will keep aggro via doing damage, and get rid of adds via stealth, the boss will completely ignore whether the TR is stealthed or not tho, so the aggro is kept. Add the fact they have a skill (Impossible to Catch) that gives them 100% deflect chance (75% extra DR more or less) and CC immunity alternatively making them completely damage immune.
One of the main reason you're seeing GWF always low on health is that GWF need to take damage to be able to use the primary class ability Unstoppable. Because of this, bad GWF seem to think it's OK for them to stand in red stuff or other bad places and take lots and lots of damage. Actually, you'll run into people of all classes that do this as they think 'There's a cleric in the party. He can keep me healed'. It's just that GWF seem to have more of them.
I have both a DC and a GWF and I've gotten to the point where I see people taking lots of damage when it would be simple for them to move to avoid it. I'll call them out on it and tell them I'm going to stop healing them. They can use their heal pots to keep themselves alive.
for this reason, at high level, lifesteal is by far the best defensive stat for gwf. nothing else comes close. in fact, you will probably be stronger if you avoid defensive stats other than lifesteal, and increase your dmg in order to make lifesteal more effective...
If someone of you that play gwf well is on Beholder please: contact me and show me how a good GWF works!
Too bad you aren't on Dragon. Not a single TR can out dps our top GWFs in our guild.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
last FH i was at 19mil while tr and other gwf was at 10
this game is 2 easy for gwfs to shine
Which game? :P
Cause yesterday I've get another run with a GWF ... OMG: no damage, no tank, a litlle CC and WTF ... why? :P
I renew my invitation to everyone: add me on beholder and join me in a DD so you can show me the power
Again what a joke. No gwf can touch our tr dps, but in aoe only dungeons, dps is irrelevent as its just a cw show anyway.
ofc there are some places where dropping mobs is easy and speeds up stuff, but when party clears mobs in same time it would take them to get near ledge its situational
about tanking i agree, gwf doesnt have anything to generate threat except potions lol
I can't wait to see the TR damage. We have grouped with TR plenty of times. I have said over and over that if I must pug, I would rather not take them because their damage is low.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
WHen you'll do the test call me as a DC: I'm interested to see what's the result
The Great Weapon Fighter, as it's name suggests, is a great toon to play. Don't let the naysayers bring you down.
If you want a visceral feeling class, stomping innumerable enemies to the ground, with crit arrows and orange numbers flying all around ... Play GWF.
It feels good. Especially if you are good at dodging, sprinting. A good GWF can be always where there is a need. I even finished Pirate King with a good DC and a CW, and got kudos from the DC for my dodging ability. If that's the case, TR and GF could be called useless. Thery are not, but the players using them were inexperienced.
Teamplay, positioning makes a lot more in this game than one would imagine. Saying that I don't need a GWF in my team is silly. A good player will shine uising GWF, and a bad one will be abysmal as another class.
Of course, if you are not playing the game, but farming for gear, you might want maximizing dps ... and most what has been said is true. But did you see that most who advise against GWF still admit that there are a few ones worth taking into dungeons too ?
Before Feywild I could top the dps chart. I did spam Slam a lot. Not because GWF was that great, but because most players are not that great either.
I came out first in dungeons, CTA ... but I also came out last, or before last. So what does that tell me ... that it depends on player skill a lot. Dismissing GWFs form the start is a prejudice, what really hurts the good GWFs. In time more and more will stop playing it and than the class will indeed become useless, because other classes will learn to play without them. GWF is a supporting character, with the ability to quickly switch roles between tanking, debuffer (SoTS, recent changes to Slam), small area/mobcount AOE dps and single target dps, one that is fun to play because it is a melee character, and visually impressive with the hugearse weapon. No wonder that many new players choose GWF as their starting toon. One will always find a GWF willing to do a dungeon, while DCs are always missing. I don't see than what is not to like as one who is not playing GWF. They are versatile and available, and the good ones are even worth inviting into teams.
Pirate King and CTA, ....wOw i think ill stop my comment there before i get another warning... lol.
Basicly, WHY would a group need a GWF? What can the GWF contribute with, DPSing/tanking the boss is better done by a TR, controlling/killing adds/trash is better done by a CW, dedicated tanking is not needed if the rest know what they are doing. In my opinon the situation is that the GWF fills a role that is not needed.
How I see it:
Pro's for CW:
-Second best solo target damage (After TR)
-Best AoE dmg in game.
-Second best buff/debuff kits in game (After DC)
-Best CC in game.
-Ranged.
-Teleport dodge.
-HV stacking.
-3 CW's (or 2 good ones) with a decent DC removes the need for a tank.
Con's for CW:
-Reasonably fragile.
-Threat control only through damage.
-Needs healing from a DC if they take dmg.
Pro's for GWF:
-Reasonably good solotarget damage.
-Good AoE damage.
-Tanky.
-Somewhat self-sustaining on HP.
-Can increased their threat through feats/skills.
Con's for GWF:
-Melee.
-No dodge.
-Needs to take damage for unstoppable.
-Rather weak debuffing.
Pro's for TR:
-Best solo target dmg in game.
-Stealth.
-Dodge.
-Stealth.
-Adds can't see you when stealthed.
-Decent solo target debuffing.
Con's for TR:
-Melee
-Weak AoE damage.
-Fragile.
-Bosses can see you despite stealth.
ofc devs do favor cw a lot, but hopefully that will change
A good GWF can also outDPS a CW for as long as the max number of mobs around are 5. CWs have more burst, but GWF at-wills are spammable with a large AoE. Basically if the CW keeps bumping and controlling/killing off normal adds then the remaining elite adds will take massive damage from GWF AoE. Of course if even elite mobs can be bumped then the need to keep a GWF around decreases significantly... not that I'm trying to give the GMs any ideas.
Finally the GWF is a very good off-tank, especially if he knows how to play as one.
Tanks are important. The fact that there are currently several fights which are easier without a tank around is more a testament to how unbalanced these fights are. I don't get how some people think that dungeons are supposed to be faster without a tank when having a good tank around allows you to skip dozens of encounters (or tackle multiple ones at once) and means more time dedicated to killing the boss/controlling adds and less time running around/dodging.
The HV bug is great, but make no mistake - it will be fixed. Cryptic has been tinkering with stacking buffs/debuffs since beta. First it was Shadow Weaver, then Power of the Sun/Power of Oppression, then some other wizard feat... apparently they've even broken Greater Plaguefire's stacking debuff.
but how many good GWF we have now?
if u r so good, i believe you can easily get a spot in guild run
but most of the GWF dunno how to play their class, so when we form pug group, no one would consider to take GWF
i have a CW and DC. if the GWF dunno how to tank adds, help CW/DC on adds, i feel that any other char is better than GWF in my group
because GWF are so versatile that they can fit in all conditions, but most of them player dunno how to fully utilize their GWF
so, for most ppl, no one would want GWF in group anymore
but i had met 1-2 GWF that can out-dps my CW, but in rare cases\
and Im thauma CW using PF, so i consdier myself as debuff CW more than damage CW, even my damage 90% top dps chart
good, but not enough: 1 GWF in 2 months of play. Other GWF sucks, no damage, no tank, no CC ... bleach.
Even after this run I think that DC CW CW TR GF is the best team atm.