Party mates: GWF ... wtf?

yukuaiita

Hi all,

In all my dungeon runs, mostly in T2 runs, I see how each class work (and have to work) but I've a question about GWF: what's his role in a party?

In my head the party is:
- DC healing
- GF tanking/kiting
- CW cc or dd
- TR dd

So what's the role of GWF? tanking? dd?
Everytime I group with a GWF I've to stay tuned on him healing healing healing cause he's in in a "perma-50%-health" (during boss fights). Have you ever find a GWF that do something better then other classes?

tang56

GWF = Jack of all trades, master of none. It's pretty much the class you pick up when you can't get hold of a tank/TR/CW since it can fill in for all of them(well, the GF/TR successfully, CW...less so). Very versatile, but not the outstanding and obvious choice for any of the roles.

jack69ass

IMO, the role of GWF for most DD is to kill the ads.. except for final boss of certain DDs, a GWF might have to do something else.. eg; FH - kill archers/boss
Mad Dragon - protect DC from imps
ToS - burn boss
after all it depends on your party composition.. if your CW and GF themselves can handle ads, assign ur GWF on boss with TR.. if u have 2 TRs and no GF,.. put GWF to assist ur CW in killing ads.. if its a Sentinel GWF, he can take on GF role.

shienara

yukuaiita wrote: »

Everytime I group with a GWF I've to stay tuned on him healing healing healing cause he's in in a "perma-50%-health" (during boss fights). Have you ever find a GWF that do something better then other classes?

Really? You must have played with terrible GWFs because the ones i am playing with needs nearly no special heal than Astral Seal & Shield.
Like the others stated his first use is to kill the adds and support the CW.

yukuaiita

So the main part is "protect me and kill adds".
Yep: I think that I found only bad GWF (the only one that it's good it's one named Shanky) so I'll hope to find better ones next time. I read that GWF can shoot Valindra: it's true?

tyrtallow

GWFs are primary strikers, secondary defenders. A good GWF has strong single-target DPS potential and is unmatched when it comes to DPSing in a controlled AoE. By "controlled" AoE I mean max 5 mobs. Anything much bigger than that and the CW's DPS is all but unmatched. Their main job is to take down or soften up tougher mobs while the CW kills off the normal mobs or focuses on pushing mobs off edges. They are secondary defenders since several of their powers generate a lot of threat, and regardless of anything else they are expected to receive (and dish out) a lot of punishment so that other party members can do their job safely. You could say that they Neverwinter's off-tanks, and it helps that there are now enchantments which generate a lot of aggro.

The problem with GWFs is that many aren't sure what they should be doing. Before Feywild the sheer spammability of the CW's Arcane Singularity and the DC's dailies combined the general lack of threat-generating options meant that all but the most skilled or well-geared GWFs were easily replaceable with just about anything else. The various Unstoppable bugs definitely didn't help the class. Thanks to all the general nerfs and new enchantment options a good GWF is more useful. As long as their Unstoppable doesn't get bugged good GWFs tend to stand out much more nowadays.

baddumtss

GWF's role is Aoe-dps and Off-Tank, but since both are not needed in this game the class is pretty much worthless.

- AOE DPS is not needed, CW can kill mobs instantly by pushing them off the ledge.
- If there are no ledges, CW will out-damage the GWF in Aoe DPS anyway, like in Malabog Castle.

- Tanks are not needed in this game, All T2's can be completed without a tank. Tanks just slow the party down. Besides Cleric's can tank just fine.

- Only positive I can think about the GWF is the SoTS debuff, but that too is not needed since CW's can generate 72 HV stacks. And oh, the GWF is also good at reviving downed allies.

I'm not trying to bash the GWF here, heck i even mained one for a long time. But since nothing has changed since beta, I gave up hope and rerolled. It's just terrible class design by cryptic.

mbllanes199

shienara wrote: »

Really? You must have played with terrible GWFs because the ones i am playing with needs nearly no special heal than Astral Seal & Shield.
Like the others stated his first use is to kill the adds and support the CW.

duh, another one of those OTHERS who think there is only Sent GWF build on this game, most destroyer need to be constantly heal since most only got less than 1.5-2k defense and of course there is some Destroyer excepted on this since they are sporting 13kgs. LOL.

yokihiro

believe me it will even get worse once more dps classes are introduced. atm i also feel that a gwf in best case is just a filler class in pve. you can easily go with another cw or tr instead and would most likely do better. i have a lowbie gwf myself and it looks like he should fit the role of a melee area/encounter damage dealer but at the moment you don't really need that role.

the game mechanic is too much focussed on adds at the moment. that's why cws rule the dungeons. every dungeon becomes much easier with 2 cws just because of their control spells. they leave most other classes really behind. personally i think gf, cw and dc are the only real classes needed in a party (althouh i even ran Spider without a GF once, but with him it is easier). the pure dps part is exchangable. when there will be a ranger soon or a warlock you can pick either them or the tr or the gwf.

diogene0

1/3 tank, 1/3 dps, 1/3 control. That's what GWFs are. Good gwfs are quite rare though.

yukuaiita

First of all: thanks for the answers.

Then let's go to a second question: so now I understand that GWF it's alot viable and quite usefull but I see that everyone say a thing:
GWF can do all, but other classes do it better, right?

Tank? Better a GF
Single DD? Better a TR
AoE DD? CW
CC? CW

Right?
I ask this cause some friends are leveling a GWF and I wanto to stop them if the class is so unusefull, ask them to do something else (like a GF that it's quite rare)

mbllanes199

GWF any path are only useful if you have high GS, most gwf are an Alt and their main is something else to farm the equipment, well that was before the BoP.

Their are only few high gear GWF left and they are still holding on hoping things would change.

GWF are not wanted on almost any dungeon run, if the party can get other class they would and would not take GWF. Sadly it is true. As an 13kgs+ myself, i just have to create my own party on LFG just to run dungeons most of the times.

So if your main is GWF and you just reach 60 and want to farm your own equipment............................ gud luk.

wiserwithage

Sometimes you'll see a call for a GWF for specific dungeons, like Spellplague or the Pirate one. Those dungeons are known for having a lot of AoE dps needed, so the GWF is an attractive choice.

Beyond that? I just don't know. My 1st character was a GWF and I've just leveled a DC up to 60th as my 2nd character because it's just too hard for a newer GWF to gear themselves up when no one wants them there. Also when Feywild went live, the GWF's main daily AoE dps power got severely nerfed, which has made them even less desirable (if that's even possible).

At the moment, most people run a Sentinel (off-tank) spec and use their GWF only for PvP. In that environment, a Sentinel GWF is ridiculous. It was so viable that the devs nerfed that spec when Feywild went live. (Do they want to remove all of the class' viable specs?) Even after the nerf, the build is extremely strong.

Now if the devs replaced the lost defensive stats in Sentinel with some kind of +% Aggro Gain ability, then we could argue that a GWF could be a more viable choice for an AoE dps quasi-tank role in PvE. However this hasn't happened, which has left GWF in a sad state of having no real place in a party beyond "a player that I really like". That's more of a charity spot based on emotional reasons.

diogene0

There are too many gwfs in this game to make the class desired in dungeon runs. When i pug, i often get two GWFs + 1 TR. Guess who's being kicked? Yes, one of the GWFs. While i'm happy to have one in the party, two is too much to carry.

xelliz

tang56 wrote: »

GWF = Jack of all trades, master of none.

This, unfortunately it seems that Cryptic didn't even see fit to allow this class to even be a Jack of his trades...

seisem2

diogene0 wrote: »

There are too many gwfs in this game to make the class desired in dungeon runs. When i pug, i often get two GWFs + 1 TR. Guess who's being kicked? Yes, one of the GWFs. While i'm happy to have one in the party, two is too much to carry.

If it is a bad GWF, I agree. But a good GWF will blow away a good TR for any full run. Of course, people want TR for the exploit factor.

I rarely pug a dps in my party, but if I do I can guarantee you it won't be a TR.

inthefade462

GWF are good seal clubbers. IE low end dungeons like Pirate where no CW with any GS whatsoever bothers to do. Pretty sure 5 GWF can 5man pirate rather efficiently actually.

If it is a bad GWF, I agree. But a good GWF will blow away a good TR for any full run. Of course, people want TR for the exploit factor.

other than dungeons specifically designed for AOE (where CW blows away GWF) even a bad TR out dmgs the best geared GWFs. Of course in those "legit" guilds (ie unwanted class group therapy guilds) where every single add is pulled in a controlled setting of 5 mobs max and CWs are only allowed to use tab-entangle and Singularity to specifically boost gwf/gf dps at the expense of everyone elses and dungeon complete time, then yeah you can create a scenario where gwf appears to be good at dps. You can do the same thing for any class, make your Cleric top DPS by pulling 5 adds at a time and letting them knock them off ledges with divine sunburst. Of course no one does that because of how horribly inefficient it would be, but the argument could be made that DC is top dps if that's all you do.

seisem2

inthefade462 wrote: »

GWF are good seal clubbers. IE low end dungeons like Pirate where no CW with any GS whatsoever bothers to do. Pretty sure 5 GWF can 5man pirate rather efficiently actually.


other than dungeons specifically designed for AOE (where CW blows away GWF) even a bad TR out dmgs the best geared GWFs. Of course in those "legit" guilds (ie unwanted class group therapy guilds) where every single add is pulled in a controlled setting of 5 mobs max and CWs are only allowed to use tab-entangle and Singularity to specifically boost gwf/gf dps at the expense of everyone elses and dungeon complete time, then yeah you can create a scenario where gwf appears to be good at dps. You can do the same thing for any class, make your Cleric top DPS by pulling 5 adds at a time and letting them knock them off ledges with divine sunburst. Of course no one does that because of how horribly inefficient it would be, but the argument could be made that DC is top dps if that's all you do.

Just shows you how ignorant you are. I haven't played with a single TR that has out dps'd me, guild run or pug run. Not in a single dungeon. They just can't compete with a properly played GWF.

And your description of a legit guild is a joke.

shienara

mbllanes199 wrote: »

duh, another one of those OTHERS who think there is only Sent GWF build on this game, most destroyer need to be constantly heal since most only got less than 1.5-2k defense and of course there is some Destroyer excepted on this since they are sporting 13kgs. LOL.

Hell no, I really dont care how people build their chars as long as they succeed.
Because of your assumption i asked 3 of my GWF-friends about their build and all 3 said that they primarily specced into the destroyer-path.
On the other side it is not really new to mmos that especially the warrior-classes scale very well with gear.

yukuaiita

seisem2 wrote: »

If it is a bad GWF, I agree. But a good GWF will blow away a good TR for any full run. Of course, people want TR for the exploit factor.

I rarely pug a dps in my party, but if I do I can guarantee you it won't be a TR.

It's really strange to read this cause it means that in all the time I'm in the game I ever find **** GWF ... Can you PM me how you play your GWF? Only to share this information with my friends.

I'm sorry to have posted in DC section but I'm a DC, and I think that if I go in the Barracks saying "Ehy, it's real that GWF sucks?" I think that the answers will not be good :P

mbllanes199

yukuaiita wrote: »

It's really strange to read this cause it means that in all the time I'm in the game I ever find **** GWF ... Can you PM me how you play your GWF? Only to share this information with my friends.

I'm sorry to have posted in DC section but I'm a DC, and I think that if I go in the Barracks saying "Ehy, it's real that GWF sucks?" I think that the answers will not be good :P

You have been trolled, he can't find any TR that can outdamage him! Why? he is not getting one on their dungeon runs. LOL. he takes the role of the TR.

inthefade462

Dude thinks lightning is better than vorpal on gwf, his ignorance is obvious.

yukuaiita

ah ok :P

the good GWF does not exist

mbllanes199

yukuaiita wrote: »

ah ok :P

the good GWF does not exist

No, there is one self proclaim good GWF and all the rest are bad players, if you dont follow his build you are trash. LMAO>

xelliz

yukuaiita wrote: »

ah ok :P

the good GWF does not exist

Just because you don't know how to play one, doesn't mean other people don't know how to as well...

cribstaxxx

inthefade462 wrote: »

Dude thinks lightning is better than vorpal on gwf, his ignorance is obvious.

Lightning is the best enchant for GWF IF you are trying to hold agro and tank.

yukuaiita

xelliz wrote: »

Just because you don't know how to play one, doesn't mean other people don't know how to as well...

Eh?

I'm not a GWF :P

inthefade462

cribstaxxx wrote: »

Lightning is the best enchant for GWF IF you are trying to hold agro and tank.

Dude has said repeatedly in other threads he is dps spec gwf, not sent/tank/threat gwf.
He also thinks gwf dps compares to cw and that only 1 cw on the entire server is better than him. Also that he out dps good trs. Guy is a joke, and hes trolling you. There are good gwf out there, we have some of the best on the server in our guild and they'd all destroy him. I may have even grouped with his cw friend once the name is familiar, think i out damaged him on my pure def/debuff undergeared cw.

seisem2

yukuaiita wrote: »

It's really strange to read this cause it means that in all the time I'm in the game I ever find **** GWF ... Can you PM me how you play your GWF? Only to share this information with my friends.

I'm sorry to have posted in DC section but I'm a DC, and I think that if I go in the Barracks saying "Ehy, it's real that GWF sucks?" I think that the answers will not be good :P

My healer will always be my main character. I always play a healer in MMOs, so of course I read this forum as well. There is a guide that is on my signature for my alt GWF that has been very successful. If you are on dragon feel free to message me.

seisem2

inthefade462 wrote: »

Dude has said repeatedly in other threads he is dps spec gwf, not sent/tank/threat gwf.
He also thinks gwf dps compares to cw and that only 1 cw on the entire server is better than him. Also that he out dps good trs. Guy is a joke, and hes trolling you. There are good gwf out there, we have some of the best on the server in our guild and they'd all destroy him. I may have even grouped with his cw friend once the name is familiar, think i out damaged him on my pure def/debuff undergeared cw.

Wow. Do you have trouble reading? I have said that only elite CW's can beat the GWF that I have. There are many good CWs out there that will beat me as well. It is just the way the class works. What they won't beat me in is damage taken, usually kills, and they will always die more than me. The only time my character ever dies is during a total party wipe. I see CWs die all the time because they can't soak more than 1 hit.

I have played with a ton of TRs on my server. I have yet to play with one that matches my damage for a full run. They simply can't keep up. There is no troll. I have written guides and tried to help numerous times.

seisem2

inthefade462 wrote: »

Dude thinks lightning is better than vorpal on gwf, his ignorance is obvious.

Greater Lightning gives me more damage than Greater Vorpal. I have tested it.